Monopoly of power through moral outrage

[shakabroh]

I love my teenage daughter a lot. But I feel that she uses my affections for her against me. I would appreciate any advice anyone could give. I'm looking for a solution.:smack:

My wife and I are divorced. My daughter from my previous marriage grew up with my wife. She grew up as a kid with her mom, who was prone to weak extremes. What I mean by that is that she was either a very permissive parent or wrecklessly authoritative. The result has been that my daughter has this deep sense of moral outrage. To gain power in dealing with her mother, she has learned to manipulate the situation in her favor. Now, my teenager daughter has become a master manipulator. She knows how to change the situation to her favor by hook or crook. I suppose that is good survivor skills to some degree, but it kind of comes with disadvantages. It's kind of knowing how to survive in the prison system--yeah sure you surive the jungle, but you also become an animal in the process of surviving.

Well anyway, my teenage daughter has now come to live with me. And she tries to use all the same tactics that worked quite well with her mother. She tries to terrorize our household using moral outrage to bolster her power. It is really wild. She will call people a bully...and pose herself as a victim as a way to gain sympathy and power to launch her attacks. It gets a lot more involved but I can't put a finger on it.

I don't understand how someone can bully their way through a circumstance by calling other people a bully. I see it, but I don't know what to do to stop it. And this is my daughter. :(

Anyway, all her accusations just ruins the mood in the house. We all feel defensive. I shake in my boots as a parent. I am afraid to take a firm stance against her and impose my moral authority for I fear being what she accuses me of: unjust. I love her with my heart. And I feel she knows it. But I wonder if she uses it against me. I am looking for solutions.

[Cat Whisperer]

Your daughter needed firm boundaries when she was younger, and she probably needs them now, too. Giving a kid age-appropriate boundaries isn't being unjust - it's being a parent.

Disclaimer - I'm not a parent, but I have watched my 16 year old niece grow up into a tantrum-throwing, mother-cussing teenager because of the spotty discipline she got from her parents.

[picker]

Call her on it, every time. Let her know in no uncertain terms the consequences of selfish manipulative behavior. Make sure she knows that it applies to any situation, at home or elsewhere, and that you will respond when it comes to your attention whether or not it affected you and yours.

The trick is doing this in a way which is loving and supportive while being absolutely firm. And following through EVERY time.

You've only got two years until she can do what she wants anyway. Good luck.

[Wheelz]

Same disclaimer as CW -- I don't have kids, but these days I see an epidemic of parents trying to be a friend first and a parent second, and the results are not often pretty.

"I shake in my boots as a parent" sounds like exactly what your daughter is trying to accomplish. I realize there's not a single simple answer, but maybe a lighter touch might be called for. By that I don't mean giving in, but you don't have to live in the extremes your ex does in order to get your point across.

Keep your reactions as drama-free as possible. When your daughter accuses you of being unfair, shrug and say "yeah, I guess I'm just a horrible tyrant that way, whaddaya gonna do?"

[perfectparanoia]

Do your best to stand firm and APPEAR uneffected by it. Pretend you don't have feelings.

This is tough. I wish you luck.

[kunilou]

My wife had been a teacher for years before she had her own children, so she had a handy stock of argument-breakers already worked out.

One of her favorites: "This isn't about that." Whenever one of our kids tried to cite whatever injustice they could dig up to change the argument, my wife would look them striaght in the eye and say "This isn't about that," and refuse to allow them to play that card.

[Drunky Smurf]

Stop being a wimp. Whever she pulls that shit tell her, "Your emotional manipulation of me is not going to work." and then tell her no to whatever it is you are too scared to say no to her about.

She'll throw a tantrum and then you tell her if she is going to behave that way she can just stay in her room with the door closed until her attitude changes.

Seriously do you want her going out into the world thinking being a manipulative bitch is a good way to navigate through life? What's going to happen when she gets her first job and they want her to work on a Friday night and she wants to go out with her friends? Is she going to throw a tantrum and claim they are being a bully and that she shouldn't have to work on a Friday? She's not going to be employed for long. And what about college?

I don't have kids but my mom was an emotional manipulator. I learned to realize what it is that was going on and to tell myself that I would not be manipulated this way. Eventually my mom learned that she couldn't manipulate me anymore and stopped.

My grandma is even worse than my mom was, gee I wonder where my mom got the behaviour from, but since she was my grandma and old and stuff and I would just go along with whatever she wanted.

A recent example:

I used to live within a few miles of my grandma and I would take her car in to get the oil changed. A year or so ago though I moved to a little over 30 miles away. When I would visit my mom and grandma would be there she would drop hints that she needed her oil changed. After a couple of times, and several months later, she just came out and said, "So when are you going to get my oil changed?" I told her she can take it in herself and to ask for so-and-so and he would take care of it. She came back saying she can't possibly take it in because she is a woman and the auto-shop is going to rip her off. To which I replied, "Well I guess your oil isn't getting changed." I found out later she had gotten my brother, who lives only about 12 miles away from her, to start getting the oil changed for her.

[shakabroh]

Keep your reactions as drama-free as possible. When your daughter accuses you of being unfair, shrug and say "yeah, I guess I'm just a horrible tyrant that way, whaddaya gonna do?"

Wheels, I appreciated this response, thanks.

The essence of her stance is that she can't stand someone having a stronger moral stance than she does. But her morality is based on her own perceived victimization. It's like if she can find a fault with you, then the focus is off of her.

I agree with you about being a parent first and a friend next. That is my goal. I'm trying. I think I need some classes. Maybe some verbal self defence classes. :cool:

I try to keep my language when I deal with her as "sanitized" as possible. She looks for every opportunity to 'tip the balance' and turn it into a shout-fest.
And I do my best to keep the mood calm, firm, "professional" (if you will).
I feel like a ninja at times trying to keep balance on top of a flag pole with someone trying to push me off :)Trying to find some humor in all this :p

Thank you for your responses. Yes, you're right. I am looking for guidance.

When you're dealing with mature people, there is give and take and you come to an understanding. But when you're dealing with an immature person...it seems you need to take a very different approach than one in which you deal with someone mature. They want to drag you down to their level so that they can justify being themselves. She's a lot better at being immature and throwing a tantrum pushing buttons than I am :)

I almost feel like she knows that if she were to engage in a mature conversation, that she has no grounds to act. So she intentionally creates this whole (fake) defensive front so that she can live in her self-justified victimization. This gives her the freedom she wants to live her lifestyle without being accountable to anyone else.

I suppose this is my own lacking. But I am afraid of being confrontational because of things escalating. She thrives in the yelling and screaming and chaos of it all. I don't. When things escalate to yelling and screaming, she's in her element. I'm not.

This is what she's used to doing with her mom. She dragged her mom down to her level where they both resorted to yelling and screaming and saying whatever to push each others buttons and have a shouting match where anything goes.

I do not want to be reduced to that and lose the authority that I have. More than that, that is just not the kind of person I want to be. Nor play that game. And she knows that.

[shakabroh]

My wife had been a teacher for years before she had her own children, so she had a handy stock of argument-breakers already worked out.

One of her favorites: "This isn't about that." Whenever one of our kids tried to cite whatever injustice they could dig up to change the argument, my wife would look them striaght in the eye and say "This isn't about that," and refuse to allow them to play that card.

Thank you for your response. Yes, I have used this. Works quite well.

[shakabroh]

Stop being a wimp.

I don't have kids but my mom was an emotional manipulator. I learned to realize what it is that was going on and to tell myself that I would not be manipulated this way. Eventually my mom learned that she couldn't manipulate me anymore and stopped.


Drunky Smurf, That is really great that you figured out your mom and learned how to deal with her and your grandma gracefully. Really, I mean it.

As I'm reading your comments I'm realizing that perhaps this is a lot more about my fear of losing control and being reduced to engaging in the tantrums that she thrives in engaging in.

Does that make me a wimp?

Is yelling and screaming and throwing things around a sign of strength? Is that the example I want to set as a parent?

I think I need some help in being able to have a full on confrontation without losing control. Any advice? I'm not kidding. Verbal Kungfu classes sound really inviting right now. I would totally do it. :p

[Ferret Herder]

If she gets loud, get quieter. Repeat yourself a few times if you have to, but if you do this, I think you'll at least surprise her and might get her to listen.

Lower your voice, set your jaw, work on your best poker face.

[curious11]

Verbal Kungfu classes sound really inviting right now. I would totally do it. :p

At work we had to take Non-Defensive Communication classes based on a book by Sharon Ellison, "Don't Be So Defensive!" and "Taking the War Out of Our Words." The book has many examples of manipulation and how to defuse situations with quiet questions.

One example is the non-trapping, strictly informative question. The glass is broken on the floor, the child is standing there. Don't ask, "Did you break the glass?" Cause you already know the answer to that question. "How did the glass break?" in a neutral tone with neutral body language is a better question.

The neutral tone is speaking as if the words coming out of your mouth are floating down like a balloon.

It takes a lot of time and effort to use the techniques. The one technique I use the most is the choices. I tell my kids, "As soon as you are ready for bed, you can watch a show if there is enough time. (The training suggests you should explictly describe the antecedent) If you take too long getting ready for bed, then you will not be able to watch a show. You decide if you want to watch a show or not. Do you understand?" This avoids the, "You didn't say we couldn't watch a show."

i.e. for your situation, "If you slam the door to your room, I will remove the door for a week, if you don't slam the door to your room, the door will not be removed. You decide if you have a door on your room or not.

Outside of the Ellison books I had some other training which stressed speaking from I. Say things like "when you yell at me I feel on edge." Don't say things like "when you yell the entire house is upset." Cause you can't know if the entire house is upset, but you do know how you feel.

Anyway, my kids aren't teens... yet. So I know there is supposed to be a striving for independence, but they're not there yet, you're still in charge and responsible.

Good luck!

[MissTake]

Single mom of a teenaged daughter checking in.

Silence works for me when TheKid has a random fit of stupidity (I am really lucky, and I am fully aware of that - we rarely have fights). Once I see she is starting to blow up, I shut down. You can't argue with a brick wall, can you? Once she rails about how horrible everyone, everything is, I will repeat what she says, but in a calm manner (using the "I hear you say X, is that right?", not "You're saying X" manner of communication). If she starts her head back up, I stop. Wait until it passes, and start all over again.

Example: She became upset with me this past Friday. A friend had a party and we had agreed that I would pick her and another friend up at midnight. At 1130 I received a call from a different person asking if TheKid and her friend could spend the night, or if I would consider 1am/2am instead of midnight. I texted TheKid, stating I debated about the overnight thing, but that since the friend I was also picking up would have to lie to her parents about where she spent the night, I couldn't in good conscious agree to that; however, I was okay with picking her up at 130am. Note: The girl who was having the party? I cannot stand. Her friend's parents also dislike the girl. If they had asked me where their child spent the night, I would not lie and say she was at our house.
TheKid decided midnight was fine, as "everyone" had left to do somethings that are against the law in most states. When I picked them up, TheKid was obviously pissed. I explained my reasoning - her friend's parents would not have been happy, and I have no desire to have them pissed at me.
TheKid started pissing and moaning about how I treat her like a child, she's 17, dammit, and needed the night out, her last hurrah before senior year, etc etc.
Ok. So, I'm hearing that despite our initial agreement that I would pick you up at midnight, you're angry that I briefly thought about allowing you to spend the night, right? Yes.
Do you understand why I changed my mind? No.
(Explained the whole Not Going To Lie bit). It's not fair.
Were they doing anything that exciting that spending the night was a necessity? No, not really.
Were you going to be awake all night? (By this time her friend was snoring in the car) No, I wasn't going to stay awake all night.
So, let me see if I understand all of this: We agreed midnight. Upon a request, I thought about changing it to overnight, but due to your friend having to lie about it and the possible negative outcomes, I changed my mind, still offering to pick you up later, which you declined. And you're upset with me about all of that.
Well, if you put it that way...
:)

[twickster]

Since you're looking for advice, I'll move this to our advice forum, IMHO.

twickster, MPSIMS moderator

[pbbth]

I suppose this is my own lacking. But I am afraid of being confrontational because of things escalating. She thrives in the yelling and screaming and chaos of it all. I don't. When things escalate to yelling and screaming, she's in her element. I'm not.

This is what she's used to doing with her mom. She dragged her mom down to her level where they both resorted to yelling and screaming and saying whatever to push each others buttons and have a shouting match where anything goes.

I do not want to be reduced to that and lose the authority that I have. More than that, that is just not the kind of person I want to be. Nor play that game. And she knows that.

Force her to fight your way. When I have arguments with people like this the moment something insulting or offensive comes out of their mouth I immediately stop talking and stare at them in silence for a good 30 seconds. This usually prompts either an apology for going too far or another insult, at which point I say quietly, "I will not fight with you like this. If you are going to be insulting I refuse to discuss this with you." You usually only have to do this kind of thing once or twice before someone stops pulling the insults as argument behavior.

[shakabroh]

Force her to fight your way. When I have arguments with people like this the moment something insulting or offensive comes out of their mouth I immediately stop talking and stare at them in silence for a good 30 seconds. This usually prompts either an apology for going too far or another insult, at which point I say quietly, "I will not fight with you like this. If you are going to be insulting I refuse to discuss this with you." You usually only have to do this kind of thing once or twice before someone stops pulling the insults as argument behavior.


I REALLY like this advice. Will definitely try this! Thanks. :D

Thank you moderator for moving it to the advice forum.

[shakabroh]

Single mom of a teenaged daughter checking in.

Silence works for me when TheKid has a random fit of stupidity (I am really lucky, and I am fully aware of that - we rarely have fights). Once I see she is starting to blow up, I shut down. You can't argue with a brick wall, can you? Once she rails about how horrible everyone, everything is, I will repeat what she says, but in a calm manner (using the "I hear you say X, is that right?", not "You're saying X" manner of communication). If she starts her head back up, I stop. Wait until it passes, and start all over again.


:)


Thank you. You made me realize that I had not been exercising enough of the power of silence. I can be in control of the conversation at every step of the way. I don't need to react to every stimuli she tosses in my direction, no matter how volatile. Love it!

Like someone said, if she gets more dramatic....I can goooo moooore caaalm slooowly. :)

I am in control of the mood, tone of the conversation at every step of the way. Wow. That is a powerful realization.

In this fast world, who would have thought that going slow is sometimes a lot more powerful?

[shakabroh]

It's not always the strength of the argument or how much you appeal to their heart that does it huh? You guys are really making me consider my assumptions. Learning a lot. Keep it coming :)

[AClockworkMelon]

I don't have kids. I'm barely an adult myself. But I can tell you that when you're in this type of argument with someone, like others have said, the louder and more emotional she gets, the quieter and calmer you need to get. She knows she's acting like a nut and she's going to be desperate to get you to justify that by goading you into responding with shouts or whatever. Don't be a wimp, be firm. But remain calm and collected, even if you're panicking inside. It'll help.

Good luck.

[kunilou]

It's not always the strength of the argument or how much you appeal to their heart that does it huh? You guys are really making me consider my assumptions. Learning a lot. Keep it coming :)

I'd go as far as to say it's never about the strength of the argument, and appeals to the heart only bring accusations of being emotionally manipulative.

Your daughter is playing a game. Moreover, it's her game, and she makes the rules up as she goes along. The only way you can end the game is to refuse to play it.

[carnut]

If she gets loud, get quieter. Repeat yourself a few times if you have to, but if you do this, I think you'll at least surprise her and might get her to listen.


This is a very effective tactic. My friend uses it with her ADHD son. He has to concentrate on her voice when she is quiet so he is able to focus on what she is saying.

[dangermom]

Yes, slow and quiet is huge. I have found that it works very well.

Another thing along the lines of "This isn't about that" is the all-purpose statements: nevertheless, be that as it may, that may be true, regardless. They're all calm phrases that can keep things on track, so you can rotate through them.

You: You need to do the dishes before you go out tonight.
Her: You're a tyrant and a bully!
You: Be that as it may, you need to do the dishes before you go out tonight.

[Rand Rover]

But her morality is based on her own perceived victimization.

That's what all morality is based on. "That's not fair" just means "I don't like it," whether it's said by a teenager or Barack Obama or Bill Moyers or Peter Singer or the ethics writer for the New York Times Magazine.

[Incubus]

Dont have kids either, but something I'm learning (being on both sides of it) is to avoid interrupting each other.

No matter how crazy her statement, let her complete the sentence/thought, then reply. Do not cut her off, no matter how right you are/wrong she is. If you interrupt, you get thought of as someone who isn't listening/caring what they have to say. Be patient, talk in a calm, neutral tone, slowly.

I say this as a person learning not to be a hothead, who, when I felt the other person was belittling me/making me feel stupid, would get defensive, raise my voice, talk faster, etc. I've learned I get a lot more traction in disagreements if I stay calm, but it took me a while- for example I started keeping my volume quieter but I was still talking in a rapid-fire fashion. I learned to be more patient and let the other person finish their statement and concern, and give myself a moment to process it rather than giving a knee-jerk response.

The best way to counter passive-agression is to confront it head on. People who act passive agressively are banking on the fact that its going to make the other person powerless- the more convinced the other person feels crazy, the easier it is for the abuser. Dont give the person that kind of power-confront it head on and their attempts to guilt you will have no substance to them.

[Incubus]

Dont have kids either, but something I'm learning (being on both sides of it) is to avoid interrupting each other.

No matter how crazy her statement, let her complete the sentence/thought, then reply. Do not cut her off, no matter how right you are/wrong she is. If you interrupt, you get thought of as someone who isn't listening/caring what they have to say. Be patient, talk in a calm, neutral tone, slowly.

I say this as a person learning not to be a hothead, who, when I felt the other person was belittling me/making me feel stupid, would get defensive, raise my voice, talk faster, etc. I've learned I get a lot more traction in disagreements if I stay calm, but it took me a while- for example I started keeping my volume quieter but I was still talking in a rapid-fire fashion. I learned to be more patient and let the other person finish their statement and concern, and give myself a moment to process it rather than giving a knee-jerk response.

The best way to counter passive-agression is to confront it head on. People who act passive agressively are banking on the fact that its going to make the other person powerless- the more convinced the other person feels crazy, the easier it is for the abuser. Dont give the person that kind of power-confront it head on and their attempts to guilt you will have no substance to them.

[guestchaz]

calm, quiet, yes! My eldest son tried that with me for a few months, my response was "You're absolutely correct, that doesn't change a thing" He changed tactics to "I'm not going to come visit you anymore" He didn't for about two months. He now argues instead of fighting or trying to bully me.

[Two Many Cats]

When she accuses you of being a bully, try some evil laughter.

Then make her do whatever it is you're trying to make her do.

[Little Nemo]

As others have said, you don't need to become a tyrant in response to accusations of being a tyrant. You don't have to yell or scream or up the stakes.

Just decide beforehand what the rules of your household are. That's part of being the father. Then tell your daughter what those rules are and stand by them. You didn't make up the rules because she accused you of being a bully and you're not going to throw them out because she accused you of being a bully. Don't over-react to her over-reactions.

And if she changes her ways and starts being all sweet and obedient, don't let that sway you either. Don't decide you can let up on the rules now because she's acting better. That's just another response to how she's behaving. You need to be steady regardless of whether she's up or down.

[EvilTOJ]

Thank you. You made me realize that I had not been exercising enough of the power of silence. I can be in control of the conversation at every step of the way. I don't need to react to every stimuli she tosses in my direction, no matter how volatile. Love it!

Like someone said, if she gets more dramatic....I can goooo moooore caaalm slooowly. :)

I am in control of the mood, tone of the conversation at every step of the way. Wow. That is a powerful realization.

In this fast world, who would have thought that going slow is sometimes a lot more powerful?

The slow blade penetrates the shield. :p

[Rekd]

I don't understand how someone can bully their way through a circumstance by calling other people a bully. I see it, but I don't know what to do to stop it. And this is my daughter. :(


Sounds like your daughter is going to be a life-long liberal. :D

[Anaamika]

The thing is, your daughter is desperately crying out for some limits. I don't have kids, but IME, kids need a safe place to test their limits, and if they don't have it, they don't feel safe. If the parents are overly permissive they get afraid, and they start doing the "Well, what about this? If I do this will you care?"

I wish you the best of luck. I mean I know she's legal very soon but I highly doubt she'll be on her own without any help...you'll probably still be supporting her for a couple of years yet.

[perfectparanoia]

Something that you need to know going in is that remaining (at least outwardly) calm and setting limits for a child that has not had them before can be exhausting. Make sure that you have a vent for the frustration that you may feel and that you get enough rest.

Do you have a spouse at present? Someone who could drop by to give you a little break if things get ugly?

[Ferret Herder]

I agree with those who are saying that she's pulling a slightly more complex version of a small child's pronouncement of "that's not fair!" This girl has slightly more grown-up terms at her disposal, and has seized upon the word "bully" as a catchall term to mean "you're trying to tell me what to do," because she knows that "bully" is a hurtful word to be on the other end of, and can make her look like the victim. Instead, you are trying to do your job, be a parent.

Another suggestion - if she calls you a bully, consider not addressing the accusation at all. It's not about that topic, and she wants to derail discussion of her chores/homework/whatever onto how awful you are so that she doesn't have to do the "horrible" thing you're requiring. Ignore the word, or don't repeat it if you feel you have to say something like, "I'm being your father/a parent/a responsible parent."

[Rachellelogram]

I think there are some good tactics in the thread already, and I can't beat the ones suggested. I have a fairly pessimistic outlook, though, on whether this will have ANY effect on her long-term behavior. She's learned this manipulative stuff through her entire childhood, and she doesn't see that it's wrong. So deal with her as you'd deal with a problem child. Make her someone else's problem as soon as possible (meaning, get her out of the house when she's 18). She has a black and white view of morality like most people do at that age, it's just unfortunate that she's been taught to always be the misunderstood champion of truth and rightness, instead of realizing that she is quite capable of being wrong. Until her brain is finished developing in her early 20s, she may not be capable of dealing in appropriate shades of gray (and if it's too late for her to learn now, by then it'll be solid cement).

Therefore, I would not approach the situation thinking you can change her. At this point, her argument tactics are ingrained. It would take months or years of therapy for her to even begin to agree that she is capable of being wrong. Forget teaching her why she is wrong. If you're lucky, you might get her to keep her head down until she gets out of the house. Simply approach the situation as a way to keep the other family members in your household as happy as possible.

It's an unfortunate situation, but for whatever reason you weren't able to have a meaningful effect on her conflict-management skills when it would have mattered. Now it is pretty much too little, too late. Don't feel like you've failed when she doesn't learn "how not to be a manipulative bitch" over the next 2 years, when that's a lesson she should have been taught within her first 10.
--
TL;DR version: it is too late. Go into damage control mode so she does not cause undue pain to you and other members of the household.

[Cat Whisperer]

It might also help to remember that she's a teenaged girl - nobody in the world is quite as victimized (in their minds) as a teenaged girl. Give her the boundaries she needs, but don't expect her to thank you for it (not for a long time, anyway).

[Little Nemo]

Sounds like your daughter is going to be a life-long liberal. :DShe's trying to create a false reality by loudly making accusations, manipulate people through emotional appeals, and blame other people for the problems she's causing. And she feels the rules shouldn't apply to her.

No, I'm not seeing a liberal here.

[puddleglum]

The OP talks about the girl's motivations in a really perjorative way. The girl is not trying to terrorize the household, she is trying to achieve a goal using the behavior her mother showed how to use. Her circumstances have changed and the behaviors her mothers taught her are wrong and counterproductive but those are probably the only behaviors she knows. You need to teach her new skills and behaviors that are healthy and appropriate. If you feel inadequate to that task, don't be afraid to ask for help and try some family counseling.
One thing that some people overlook is that she needs a father and a friend. Most of the advice is about the father part but don't overlook the friend part. Find things that she enjoys doing and do them together. She is going to be gone from your house soon and if you do not use this time to get close to her, you may never get that chance again. Be calm and consistent with discipline but also try to have fun too.

[Clothahump]

I agree with you about being a parent first and a friend next. That is my goal. I'm trying. I think I need some classes. Maybe some verbal self defence classes. :cool:

Strongly, strongly recommended: Back In Control (http://www.amazon.com/Back-Control-Gregory-Bodenhamer/dp/067176165X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314215993&sr=8-1) by Gregory Bodenhamer. Probably wouldn't hurt to buy Parent in Control (http://www.amazon.com/Parent-Control-Restore-Relationship-Adolescent/dp/0684807777/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b)as well; it deals with the younger kids. BiC deals with the teens.

Did I mention that I strongly recommend these books? I have adopted several of his suggestions in my teaching techniques.

[shakabroh]

Thank you for all your feedback (some I appreciated, some less, but thanks none the less).

I felt I should give some background on the situation:

My daughter and I have gone to counseling before, because of issues with her mom. The problem is that her mom has been profesionally assessed as a sociopath. All the symptoms my ex has displayed, when we told the therapist...the therapist said points to my ex being a sociopath. She gave us a print out, and yep, point after point verified that. It was scary to acknowledge that.

These two articles describe my ex-wife so well, I was speechless when I first read it:
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

http://www.youmeworks.com/sociopaths.html

So my daughter basically learned from the best: a full blown sociopath who is proud as heck. The funny thing is that she knows this about her mom, and she's afraid of her mom...to a degree. She's been hurt plenty of times by her mom's hot and cold whimsical behavior to manipulate her daughter in the moment...for whatever purpose.
But sociopaths also have charisma and a charm. And this is what my daughter admires in her mom. My daughter verbalizes that she has a soft corner for her mom and looks up to her. I know many times she emulates her mom. It tears me to pieces because I know a daughter should have feelings for a mom...but I almost can't allow my daughter to respect, admire and love...a sociopath. It drives me nuts. It's a difficult and delicate situation.

I almost feel that untill my daughter accepts that her mom is not normal...and unless she accepts that there is something very wrong with her mom, that she (my daughter) will always be somewhat dysfunctional. But she refuses to go there. And I don't have the heart to push her there and tell her that she should have no feelings for her mother.
On the other hand, as long as she has feelings for her mom and respects her...I will always be dealing with this issue, I feel. She admires the power that her mom wields through her manipulation and lack of empathy.

How do you fight that?

[shakabroh]

When she accuses you of being a bully, try some evil laughter.
.

Love it! :D

You're right, I think there is opportunity for humor in this. Again, any specific advice, appreciated. :)

[The Second Stone]

You are the parent and what you say goes, and no back talk or disrespect of any kind. Be like a judge and allow no contempt in your "courtroom". Disagreements with your decisions must be put in writing for an appeal when you calm down.

I have no kids. Could you tell?

[Dangerosa]

When she accuses you of being a bully, try some evil laughter.

Then make her do whatever it is you're trying to make her do.

I usually say "I'm the Mom....its my job to bully you."

I also tell my kids when they say "he's picking on me" - "that's why we gave you a brother, so you'd grow a thicker skin."

[shakabroh]

You are the parent and what you say goes, and no back talk or disrespect of any kind. Be like a judge and allow no contempt in your "courtroom". Disagreements with your decisions must be put in writing for an appeal when you calm down.

I have no kids. Could you tell?

Even out-of-the-box thinking like yours is good....though perhaps a little over-simplified for my situation. Thanks for trying nonetheless.

[carnut]

Sounds like your daughter is going to be a life-long liberal. :D

you sure she's not trying to be a victim like Glenn Beck? :(

[Rachellelogram]

Sociopathy is heritable. Do you think it's possible your daughter is a sociopath, too?

Even if she's not, she's been the victim of a sociopath's whims for her entire life. Of COURSE she's going to be fucked up. I really think you guys should go to counseling. The internet has some good advice, but none of it can substitute for a doctor.

[Cat Whisperer]

Sociopathy is heritable. Do you think it's possible your daughter is a sociopath, too?

Even if she's not, she's been the victim of a sociopath's whims for her entire life. Of COURSE she's going to be fucked up. I really think you guys should go to counseling. The internet has some good advice, but none of it can substitute for a doctor.
I was wondering that, too. Did the professional who assessed your ex as a sociopath also assess your daughter?

I think counselling for your daughter would be a very good idea, too - she's got to be awfully confused about her feelings towards her mother.

[shakabroh]

I agree with you guys. I think sociopathy (if you can call it) is like a vampire disease. My wife had it. The funny thing is that my wife didn't always display the symptoms of a sociopath. And then around her 30's I started to see it...and it got worse and worse. Finally I had to get away from her. I'm glad I did. Unfortunately my daughter didn't get away.

Anyway, what I mean to say is that I feel that my daughter has gotten 'bitten by the vampire.' I feel that she has the seeds growing in her to turn her into a vampire. It is horrible saying these things about your own flesh and blood. But sentimentalism is not going to solve my problems. Realism might. I agree with you guys. I feel my daughter is a sociopath in the making. This is nothing any parent should look forward to.

Right now my daughter feels that she has life all figured out. She is far from feeling like she needs to go to counseling. She is proud of how manipulative she is. She sees it as one of her core strengths and the power she wields in the world. She feels that this is a power that few have.
The funny thing is that she does have amazing people skills. She's always had a gift of being able to size people up and interact with them in such a way as to be in their good graces. But, one day, like her mother, there will be a few people who will not be willing to continue to play according to her games. Perhaps like her mother she too will be bitter and alone. But by then it will be too late.

I am reaching out to the resources I have. You guys are one of them. At the end of the day, if I come to the conclusion that there is nothing I can do, I will cut my losses and move on. But these are words no parent is ever proud to utter.

Untill I come to the conclusion otherwise, I will keep trying.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

Yes, slow and quiet is huge. I have found that it works very well.Humor can help too. Sometimes a bit of relief for the situation, and then you can go back to the main issue a bit more calmly.

I once used this with someone who had a pattern of blowing up in towering rants if she saw that she wasn't getting her way. She did this once, and as everyone sat there in shocked silence after this, I said Barbara, you're just so cute when you get all angry. Then it was her turn to sit there in shocked, or maybe enraged silence, while others laughed, and the Chair brought the discussion back to the motion under consideration.

Now she was a grown woman (40+ year old), instead of a teenager. She sometimes acted like one, but she could learn. For as long as she was on the Board of Directors of that organization, she didn't fly into rages like this at Board Meetings anymore.

[perfectparanoia]

TL;DR version: it is too late. Go into damage control mode so she does not cause undue pain to you and other members of the household.

Please don't do this. Get her some professional help first.

[puddleglum]

If she is a sociopath then therapy will probably not help and may hurt. However, after being married to a sociopath you are probably extra sensitive to sociopath like behavior and may be jumping to a conclusion. One of the only ways that has been shown to help sociopath is to rationally invite them to look at how their behavior has worked out. Your ex is brilliant at manipulating people and she is bitter and alone. You are a decent non-manipulative person with a loving family and a good job. It sounds like the sociopathic behavior has not worked out for your ex. Your daughter is probably old enough to look at her mother's life and decide if that is how she wants to end up. Rejecting her mother's manipulative ways does not mean rejecting her mother. You can love someone and hate a part of their personality, like a relative of an alcoholic does. Your daughter will probably never hate her mother the way you do, but can acknowledge the wreck her mother is.

[Nava]

When you're dealing with mature people, there is give and take and you come to an understanding. But when you're dealing with an immature person... you need to take a very different approach than one in which you deal with someone mature.


I almost feel like she knows that if she were to engage in a mature conversation, that she has no grounds to act.

She thrives in the yelling and screaming and chaos of it all. I don't. When things escalate to yelling and screaming, she's in her element. I'm not.

"I've got a hearing problem. When you yell at me/whine/don't vocalize/speak like the Cussing Smurf, I can't understand a thing you say!"

Works with my nephews, with my mom, with grandma...

[shakabroh]

Humor can help too. Sometimes a bit of relief for the situation, and then you can go back to the main issue a bit more calmly.

I once used this with someone who had a pattern of blowing up in towering rants if she saw that she wasn't getting her way. She did this once, and as everyone sat there in shocked silence after this, I said Barbara, you're just so cute when you get all angry. Then it was her turn to sit there in shocked, or maybe enraged silence, while others laughed, and the Chair brought the discussion back to the motion under consideration.

Now she was a grown woman (40+ year old), instead of a teenager. She sometimes acted like one, but she could learn. For as long as she was on the Board of Directors of that organization, she didn't fly into rages like this at Board Meetings anymore.

I like this. I will try it.

Yesterday, listening to all your advice, I sat down at a park, closed my eyes and visualized my daughter in one of emotionally filled rants. I could feel myself tightening up within myself even as I visualized. But I knew I was in a safe place within myself. I think I need to do more of this and visualize myself gracefully extricating myself from these emotional tight spots.

I don't know why I hadn't thought of doing this before. Taking myself through very emotionally trying situations in my own privacy. Kind of exercising myself....or stress testing myself, if you will. Cuz you know that if I can't even do this when I am in the privacy of my own queit company, I sure as heck won't be able to do it with her yelling and screaming all over me.

I need to take back the power that I have given her up being able to push my buttons.

[shakabroh]

If she is a sociopath then therapy will probably not help and may hurt. However, after being married to a sociopath you are probably extra sensitive to sociopath like behavior and may be jumping to a conclusion. One of the only ways that has been shown to help sociopath is to rationally invite them to look at how their behavior has worked out. Your ex is brilliant at manipulating people and she is bitter and alone. You are a decent non-manipulative person with a loving family and a good job. It sounds like the sociopathic behavior has not worked out for your ex. Your daughter is probably old enough to look at her mother's life and decide if that is how she wants to end up. Rejecting her mother's manipulative ways does not mean rejecting her mother. You can love someone and hate a part of their personality, like a relative of an alcoholic does. Your daughter will probably never hate her mother the way you do, but can acknowledge the wreck her mother is.

I like where you're going with this. Please tell me more. Give me more specifics.

[shakabroh]

Strongly, strongly recommended: Back In Control (http://www.amazon.com/Back-Control-Gregory-Bodenhamer/dp/067176165X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314215993&sr=8-1) by Gregory Bodenhamer. Probably wouldn't hurt to buy Parent in Control (http://www.amazon.com/Parent-Control-Restore-Relationship-Adolescent/dp/0684807777/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b)as well; it deals with the younger kids. BiC deals with the teens.

Did I mention that I strongly recommend these books? I have adopted several of his suggestions in my teaching techniques.

Thank you for the book recommendation, I'll look into it.

[shakabroh]

At work we had to take Non-Defensive Communication classes based on a book by Sharon Ellison, "Don't Be So Defensive!" and "Taking the War Out of Our Words." The book has many examples of manipulation and how to defuse situations with quiet questions.

!

Thank you for the book recommendation, I'll look into it.

[The Second Stone]

Pretty much all teenagers fit the description of sociopath. Some grow out of it.

[shakabroh]

I need help coping with passive aggression. If anyone can give me any advice, I would be grateful.