What's the gayest country?

[Rigamarole]

I'm a little bit afraid to Google my query, but I'm curious what country has the highest reported percentage of homosexual inhabitants.

I imagine it would be pretty hard to gather truly accurate data, since there are so many places where people would be afraid to admit to their sexual orientation, even in an anonymous survey. And I don't think orientation is usually asked about on a census (though it may report prevalence of same-sex couples living together, which might be a helpful metric - again though only in countries that tolerate it).

[homeskillet]

Urgay, of course!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLVJm7QW3dA

[Peremensoe]

I imagine it would be pretty hard to gather truly accurate data, since there are so many places where people would be afraid to admit to their sexual orientation, even in an anonymous survey.

My starting presumption would be that that--willingness to identify as gay--is the only variable between countries. Is there a reason to think otherwise?

[Rigamarole]

My starting presumption would be that that--willingness to identify as gay--is the only variable between countries. Is there a reason to think otherwise?

I don't know, that's why I asked. Is there a reason to assume that it would be a constant across all populations?

[simple homer]

My starting presumption would be that that--willingness to identify as gay--is the only variable between countries. Is there a reason to think otherwise?

I believe that homosexuality is probably at a consistent rate in all countries.

I am in Thailand right now, and it definitely seems as though a willingness to identify as gay is very high in Bangkok, there seems to be ladyboys everywhere I go.

The Philippines is another country where gays seem to be more comfortable to identify as gay. It is easy to spot both male and female gays almost everywhere in the Philippines.

As opposed to China, where I am often told that there are no gays in China..... :rolleyes:

[njtt]

Guyana?

[Rigamarole]

I believe that homosexuality is probably at a consistent rate in all countries.

Again, what is the factual basis for this assumption? I don't get it. Is blonde hair found in consistent proportions across all countries? Average heights? Congenital disorders? Even the sex ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio) at birth is not quite consistent across all countries. So why would we assume that sexual orientation is?

[Johanna]

I'm seeing the usual assumptions that "visibly gender-nonconforming" is synonymous with "gay." :rolleyes:
Baseless definitions or poor definitions -> Flawed metholologies -> Meaningless data.

[dracoi]

Again, what is the factual basis for this assumption? I don't get it. Is blonde hair found in consistent proportions across all countries? Average heights? Congenital disorders? Even the sex ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio) at birth is not quite consistent across all countries. So why would we assume that sexual orientation is?

Yes, exactly. Whether homosexuality is a product of genes or of upbringing (or some combination of the two), we'd expect to see variance by country/culture. Heck, even if the trait is evenly distributed to start with, you'd expect certain places (say, San Francisco) to have higher concentrations as people move to a place that is more accepting of them.

The only truly surprising answer to the original question would be to find that there are no differences.

[Slithy Tove]

The I Love Man.

[silenus]

:golf clap:

[Alessan]

Vatican City?

[Boyo Jim]

Gotta be the island of Lesbos.

[boytyperanma]

The Philippines is another country where gays seem to be more comfortable to identify as gay. It is easy to spot both male and female gays almost everywhere in the Philippines.

The Philippines have an interesting gay culture, gays are not so much accepted as they are tolerated if they adopt a kinda third gender status. Gay men and women who behave in manners similar to their gender stereotypes are oddly more discriminated against compared to other countries norms where 'straight acting' is more desired.

As opposed to China, where I am often told that there are no gays in China..... :rolleyes:

The Chinese government certainly doesn't maintain that position. They have even had state sponsored gay events. The rule in china for gays is pretty much you can do whatever you want but if the government views a collection of homosexuals as a political opposition movement they will send the police out with clubs to ransack the bars and clubs. So keep whatever you do small and in support of the ruling party or it's over. No protesting for civil rights, you get what they give you and that's it.

I imagine polling will always find more gays in gay friendly countries. No organization I know of has done a multi-country survey. With all the studies following different standards for determining sexual orientation it's impossible to find equivalent measures. In the US we get different result all the time based on perimeters.

The highest result on any one study I've seen was Norway with over 12 percent of the people polled claimed to have had homosexual intercourse at least once.

[ecoaster]

has anyone mentioned Paragay?

[Boyo Jim]

Surely any country named "Chad" has to have a large gay male population.

Iceland has the world's most frigid population.

[leahcim]

Yes, exactly. Whether homosexuality is a product of genes or of upbringing (or some combination of the two), we'd expect to see variance by country/culture. Heck, even if the trait is evenly distributed to start with, you'd expect certain places (say, San Francisco) to have higher concentrations as people move to a place that is more accepting of them.

I've read articles hypothesizing that, if there is a generic component to sexual orientation, places in the middle east where gays stay firmly in the closet, get married, and have children, are going to have a lot more of those genetic components spread around.

Install a secular government in Saudi Arabia and things are going to get really fabulous really fast.

[robert_columbia]

I'm seeing the usual assumptions that "visibly gender-nonconforming" is synonymous with "gay." :rolleyes:
Baseless definitions or poor definitions -> Flawed metholologies -> Meaningless data.

Yeah. They may be related (e.g. the percentage of straight men that are "sissy" may be less than the percentage of gay men that are "sissy", but it doesn't show any form of causation.

And for the people who just can't wait for it, I would guess Urgay, Pairogay, Gayana, and Canada have the highest percentage.

[Vinyl Turnip]

I don't know what the gayest country is, but its wife is Barbados.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

It's probably just whichever country has the most people, which would be China.

[Roderick Femm]

I'm seeing the usual assumptions that "visibly gender-nonconforming" is synonymous with "gay." :rolleyes:
Baseless definitions or poor definitions -> Flawed metholologies -> Meaningless data.If you are referring to Simple Homer's post, what you are seeing is the assumption that "visibly gender-nonconforming" is strongly related to "willing to identify as gay". Or maybe also what boytyperanma suggested about a "third sex". There is a very strong string in this thread that it would be hard to find out the gay percentage in a lot of countries because so many people are not willing to be out in repressive cultures, which includes being unwilling to have a visibly gender-nonconforming appearance.

even if the trait is evenly distributed to start with, you'd expect certain places (say, San Francisco) to have higher concentrations as people move to a place that is more accepting of them.If we are talking about countries, it is a lot harder to move from a gay-unfriendly country to a gay-friendly one, than to move about in the US and go from, I don't know, Pittsburgh to San Francisco.

The biggest problem with the question in the OP is that if you are looking at "true feelings" rather than just being self-identified as gay, then how do you define "gay"? I think it's pretty widely accepted that there is a continuum of orientations from strictly straight through bisexuality (or pan-sexuality) to strictly gay. Where do you draw the line?

My own personal, biased opinion, only tenuously supported by research so far, is that the most hard-wired tendency to be attracted to the same sex is inborn but is not genetic. It is based on circumstances during pregnancy, such as the mother's hormone levels and so on, and so is entirely situational. On that basis, it might well turn out that some cultural practices that could affect this (such as bearing children in later years) might vary greatly from one culture to another. It might even be affected by diet or weather. For myself, I hope we never find out.


Roddy

[Slithy Tove]

Perhaps any of the monarchies that observe Salic Law:

It's reigning men.

[njtt]

Oman?
Montenegro?
Bulgaria?

[Rigamarole]

It's probably just whichever country has the most people, which would be China.

As I said in the OP, we're talking about percentage of the population here. Not raw numbers.

[Johanna]

It's likely that in societies where gayness/queerness (by whatever definition) is heavily repressed, a higher percentage of people will stay closeted from themselves—i.e., be in denial so deep about themselves that they actually believe it—for a time, anyway. Then there are all the people who know they're queer but stay closeted from anyone who might harm them in some way because of it finding out. Also larger in a repressive society.

While gay may be equated with third gender in some cultures, it isn't universal, and it isn't true here in the US, for example.

I know of no reason why the natural distribution of LGBT people in the population wouldn't be about the same anywhere. This is disregarding all the complications of repression that LGBT people suffer from in many areas, which makes data-gathering futile. "But what about the blondes"...etc. is not a reason, it's a supposition. As though sexual orientation were correlated with hair color or whatever. At most, they have established tentative correlations with certain types of family birth order or index-ring finger length ratios. Birth order does not sound like it would vary from country to country. Not sure about digit ratios.

[simple homer]

I'm seeing the usual assumptions that "visibly gender-nonconforming" is synonymous with "gay." :rolleyes:
Baseless definitions or poor definitions -> Flawed metholologies -> Meaningless data.


There is a large number of men in Thailand and the Philippines that are in public everyday wearing short skirts and high heels.
I know that not all transvestites are gay, but, the majority of the ladyboys that I have seen seem to be telling the world that they are gay.

[Johanna]

There is a large number of men in Thailand and the Philippines that are in public everyday wearing short skirts and high heels.
I know that not all transvestites are gay, but, the majority of the ladyboys that I have seen seem to be telling the world that they are gay.
Define "gay." :confused:

[Namkcalb]

Saudi Arabia (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/5774/)

I'm serious.

In Saudi Arabia, “It’s easier to be a lesbian [than a heterosexual]. There’s an overwhelming number of people who turn to lesbianism,” Yasmin said, adding that the number of men in the kingdom who turn to gay sex is even greater. “They’re not really homosexual,” she said. “They’re like cell mates in prison.”

This analogy came up again and again during my conversations. As Radwan, the Saudi American, put it, “Some Saudi [men] can’t have sex with women, so they have sex with guys. When the sexes are so strictly segregated”—men are allowed little contact with women outside their families, in order to protect women’s purity—“how do they have a chance to have sex with a woman and not get into trouble?” Tariq, a 24-year-old in the travel industry, explains that many “tops” are simply hard up for sex, looking to break their abstinence in whatever way they can.

[Autolycus]

Perhaps any of the monarchies that observe Salic Law:

It's reigning men.

Damn, you're on fire in this thread!

[BowlOfDucks]

I believe that homosexuality is probably at a consistent rate in all countries.

I am in Thailand right now, and it definitely seems as though a willingness to identify as gay is very high in Bangkok, there seems to be ladyboys everywhere I go.


Ladyboys aren't gay, they're trans.

[simple homer]

Define "gay." :confused:

Men that ask me, a man, to have sex with them.

What is your definition of gay ? :confused:

[Sage Rat]

I know of no reason why the natural distribution of LGBT people in the population wouldn't be about the same anywhere.
Ancient Greece? It's fairly likely that the great majority of people just go along with whatever the social norms are, and only a small percentage are hard gay or hard straight. Dependent on the local culture, you might see variances between 5% and 95%. It's just very uncommon for 'straight' to not be the norm.

[Sage Rat]

Men that ask me, a man, to have sex with them.

What is your definition of gay ? :confused:

People who fall in love with people of their own sex.

[Johanna]

But if "ladyboys" and such are a "third gender," then they'd be gay if they dated other third-gender persons. But if they dated either men or women, I don't get how that works out to be gay, since third-gender people are defined as other from both male and female.

Also, just because you see someone in Thailand wearing a skirt, how do you know which of the three genders she likes to date, without asking her? This is what I mean about making assumptions. One, you have to assume you know what gender someone in a skirt is. Two, you have to assume you know who they like to date. That seems an awful lot of assumptions about a stranger passing by. This is why I find some of the conclusions being drawn about gayness in this thread to be incoherent.

[Try2B Comprehensive]

Saudi Arabia (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/5774/)

I'm serious.

And the mid-century Germans went about intentionally exterminating all the gays they could get their hands on. If accurate statistics can be had, and if Germany's per-capita of gays is lower today, it would be a step in answering the question of whether being gay is a strictly genetic phenomenon. Because, you see, their gays would have been dead instead of reproducing.

And, are transsexuals gay? I know a guy- not a guy I guess- who is going through the beginning of a sex change. They have taken to dressing like a woman full time, have started the hormones, and evidently the rest will follow. This person thinks they are a woman and decided at last to live like one. They never went on a date with a man until recently, when the switcheroo was somewhat underway. So... is this person a gay man, or a straight woman who is working on her anatomy?

[Dr. Drake]

What Johanna is trying to explain is that there are different ways of categorizing people that are getting mixed up in this thread.

Sex: Man (XY), woman, (XX), or what I believe is called intersex (chromosomal or biological anomalies that make it difficult to assign "man" or woman"). This is the basis for gender.

Gender: varies by culture. In many places, you have male (the cultural attributes expected of men, above), female (the cultural attributes expected of women), and what anthropologists call "third gender," one (or more) groups who have a fairly recognizable and coherent set of attributes that don't match up with either group. Thai "Ladyboys" go here.

Sexual orientation: what sex you are attracted to: heterosexual (men —> women and women —> men), homosexual (men —> men and women —> women), bisexual (men —> men or women, women —> men or women), asexual, and maybe some other categories.

Gender orientation: what gender you are attracted to. Ladyboys who only have sex with other ladyboys? Homosexual, same-gender orientation. Ladyboys who only have sex with poor simple homer? Homosexual, male-gender orientation.

The problem with "gay" is that it's both a sexual orientation and a gender orientation, at least in my experience in the English-speaking world. I'm gay, and I only date gay men. I do not have sex with straight men or any women. There are straight men who have gay sex; I would guess some do it because of the conflict between their gender (straight men) and their orientation (homosexual). Others maybe because it's easier to get laid in airport bathrooms, I don't know. There are gay men who meet up with straight men for this purpose.

(Note that you can change your gender to or from "third gender," but you cannot change your orientation or your sex. Plenty of cultures define the "top" as the male role and the "bottom" as the female role, meaning that the XY top can stay the male gender but the XY bottom is third gender, maybe for twenty minutes of role-play in the boudoir or maybe for a lifetime.)

So you kind of have to clarify what combination of biology, gender behaviour, and attraction you're talking about before we can even come close to answering the question.

[simple homer]

Ladyboys who only have sex with poor simple homer?


Yay Me ! :p







.
I don't have sex with ladyboys, but I do appreciate the shout out.






.

[Dr. Drake]

I don't have sex with ladyboys, but I do appreciate the shout out.I didn't mean to imply that you did, and I hope I didn't offend. Your definition of "gay" is what made me think of you for the example.

[AK84]

Is it even a question. Afghanistan of course. And if the question was on pedophilla, sex with animals and liking it doggy style it would still be Afghanistan; the land where everything but heterosexual sex won't raise an eyebrow.

[Farmer Jane]

Saudi Arabia (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/5774/)

I'm serious.

If I had to choose between a wife and a husband in Saudi Arabia, I'd pick the chick anytime.

Semi-related q: Is there a correlation between gay males and infertility?

[Namkcalb]

And the mid-century Germans went about intentionally exterminating all the gays they could get their hands on. If accurate statistics can be had, and if Germany's per-capita of gays is lower today, it would be a step in answering the question of whether being gay is a strictly genetic phenomenon. Because, you see, their gays would have been dead instead of reproducing.
Well, if stats aren't availible for Germany, then it's unlikely you'll notice a statistically significant change in Saudi Arabia, as they only execute a tiny number of gays.

If I had to choose between a wife and a husband in Saudi Arabia, I'd pick the chick anytime
Are you male or female?

[Rigamarole]

Is it even a question. Afghanistan of course. And if the question was on pedophilla, sex with animals and liking it doggy style it would still be Afghanistan; the land where everything but heterosexual sex won't raise an eyebrow.

Uh... cite?

[AK84]

Uh... cite?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/28/afghan-men-struggle-sexual-identity-study-finds/

[YogSosoth]

has anyone mentioned Paragay?

Can't be them, there's only 2 gays there

[Rigamarole]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/28/afghan-men-struggle-sexual-identity-study-finds/

I don't think Fox News exactly has credibility when it comes to talking about this (or any) topic...

[AK84]

It dose about this, topic as it is something which is well known.
Another link (http://dalje.com/en-world/video--gay-is-ok-in-afghanistan/130563).

[Johanna]

And, are transsexuals gay?
Some are gay. Some are straight. Some are bi. And some are asexual.

It can't be said enough (because so many people still don't get it): Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things, and they vary independently of each other.

A trans woman who likes men is straight. If she likes women, she's gay. In fact, that works exactly the same as it does for non-trans people. The principle is that trans women are women, and trans men are men. It isn't complicated. A trans man who likes men is gay. A trans man who likes women is straight. How is this even in question?

[Antinor01]

At least according to Wikipedia, Kathoey (ladyboys) refers to both transsexuals and more femme gay men. In the phillipines, the word Bakla is used and again refers gay men and transsexuals, with Filipino transsexuals considering themselves gay. (A couple of Filipino friends of mine said the same thing as Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey

[Johanna]

Filipino transsexuals considering themselves gay. (A couple of Filipino friends of mine said the same thing as Wikipedia)
This is like saying that transsexualism is a form of sexual orientation. I don't see how that can be, because the two are independent of each other. They must be using the words transsexual or gay, or both, with different meanings from what the words mean in America, where transsexual status is not tied to any particular sexual orientation.

[Antinor01]

This is like saying that transsexualism is a form of sexual orientation. I don't see how that can be, because the two are independent of each other. They must be using the words transsexual or gay, or both, with different meanings from what the words mean in America, where transsexual status is not tied to any particular sexual orientation.

I agree from an american perspective. The point is that it's hard to answer the op because of cultural differences like that.

[horsetech]

Can't be them, there's only 2 gays there

More likely to be Urugay.

[voltaire]

Is it even a question. Afghanistan of course. And if the question was on pedophilla, sex with animals and liking it doggy style it would still be Afghanistan; the land where everything but heterosexual sex won't raise an eyebrow.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/28/afghan-men-struggle-sexual-identity-study-finds/

It dose about this, topic as it is something which is well known.
Another link (http://dalje.com/en-world/video--gay-is-ok-in-afghanistan/130563).

As has been pointed out, you're looking at it way to simplistically. Regardless, nothing you cited backs up that Afghanistan has the highest percentage of homosexuality.

Due to the oppression and seclusion (segregation?) of women, gender roles in Afghanistan can sometimes be complicated. There's a flip-side to the coin of Bacha Bazi boys - Bacha Posh girls (http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/in-afghanistan-boys-are-prized-and-girls-live-the-part-53594). (Pretty interesting article, BTW)

[Capitaine Zombie]

Due to the oppression and seclusion (segregation?) of women, gender roles in Afghanistan can sometimes be complicated. There's a flip-side to the coin of Bacha Bazi boys - Bacha Posh girls (http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/in-afghanistan-boys-are-prized-and-girls-live-the-part-53594). (Pretty interesting article, BTW)

But homosocial societies and practice do generate more "gay sex". So, countries that live along those lines will have more "gays" (even though this would be a very large definition of gay, as it would include otherwise straight people that get on gay sex, just to have sex, or even have a relationship). Afghanistan ranks pretty high in separation between the sexes.

[simple homer]

At least according to Wikipedia, Kathoey (ladyboys) refers to both transsexuals and more femme gay men. In the phillipines, the word Bakla is used and again refers gay men and transsexuals, with Filipino transsexuals considering themselves gay. (A couple of Filipino friends of mine said the same thing as Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey

Transvestites have not had surgery.
Transsexuals have had sex change surgery.

In my years of living in the Philippines I met and saw many transvestites, but I am not aware of many transsexuals. Most of them just cannot afford the surgery even if they want it.

All of them I talked with, and all Filipinos that talked about them, considered them to be gay. I was told many times that the Bakla's never wanted other Bakla's, they only wanted men that looked straight.

Some of the Thai Katoeys look so much like women that it is difficult to know.
But, most Baklas appear more masculine to me. Most of them look like men with makeup.

In the Philippines the lesbians are referred to as "tomboys", and are considered gay, even the ones that dress and act like men.
There is a lesbian bar next to a favorite restaurant of mine and the couples almost always consisted of one "butch" and one "femme".

Maybe this is all too simplistic and not very PC, but are just my observations in Thailand and the Phils.

[simple homer]

This is like saying that transsexualism is a form of sexual orientation. I don't see how that can be, because the two are independent of each other. They must be using the words transsexual or gay, or both, with different meanings from what the words mean in America, where transsexual status is not tied to any particular sexual orientation.


America is just a small fraction of the world.

In America I might see only one transvestite or transsexual in a years time.
But, my experience in Thailand and the Philippines is that you can see them everyday almost everywhere that you may go.

I am now in Bangkok on business, and while I was having lunch and walking around MBK mall today I easily spotted 5 or 6 transvestites or transsexuals.

[Try2B Comprehensive]

Some are gay. Some are straight. Some are bi. And some are asexual.

It can't be said enough (because so many people still don't get it): Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things, and they vary independently of each other.

A trans woman who likes men is straight. If she likes women, she's gay. In fact, that works exactly the same as it does for non-trans people. The principle is that trans women are women, and trans men are men. It isn't complicated. A trans man who likes men is gay. A trans man who likes women is straight. How is this even in question?

It is confusing because it brings up issues of "Thinking makes it so... or does it?" The trans I have in mind is still, at this point, anatomically male, albeit under the influence of estrogen. Otherwise they try to get on as a woman. Only recently have they started dating men. So, at this point are they a gay transvestite until their surgery goes all the way, at which point we deem they are a woman and straight from then on? Or are they a woman now, anatomy notwithstanding? I don't mean to be insulting, I just find it confusing.

Sex orientation and gender identity seem to get tied up with each other in this case. I guess what you are saying is that if a person identifies as a woman then they are a woman, even if they have a ding-a-ling and have sex with men. If they identify as a man and have sex with men, then there are two things going on 1) they male-identify and 2) they're gay. A man who thinks they are a woman and has sex with men 1)female identifies and 2) therefore isn't gay even though 3) it looks just like gay sex.

Do I have it right?

[Dr. Drake]

It is confusing because it brings up issues of "Thinking makes it so... or does it?" The trans I have in mind is still, at this point, anatomically male, albeit under the influence of estrogen. Otherwise they try to get on as a woman. Only recently have they started dating men. So, at this point are they a gay transvestite until their surgery goes all the way, at which point we deem they are a woman and straight from then on? Or are they a woman now, anatomy notwithstanding? I don't mean to be insulting, I just find it confusing.

Sex orientation and gender identity seem to get tied up with each other in this case. I guess what you are saying is that if a person identifies as a woman then they are a woman, even if they have a ding-a-ling and have sex with men. If they identify as a man and have sex with men, then there are two things going on 1) they male-identify and 2) they're gay. A man who thinks they are a woman and has sex with men 1)female identifies and 2) therefore isn't gay even though 3) it looks just like gay sex.

Do I have it right?(Second edit: ) Yes.

Going with my four-fold identity scheme above, you have

1. Sex: Male
2. Gender: Female (not male, not gay)
3. Sexual orientation: Homosexual (man > man)
4. Gender orientation: Heterosexual (female > male)

The estrogen and operations are an attempt to get #1 to line up with #2. It's easiest for the public at large to lump "unusual sexuality" and / or "unusual gender identity" in with "gay" as Not Us, but it isn't really accurate. Transsexual just means someone whose gender and sex are opposite. In this case, sexual attraction lines up with gender, not sex; in other cases, it's the reverse. I would say that she (because in case of a conflict the pronoun should go with the gender) is heterosexual. That's because as an outsider my concern is how people identify themselves socially, not biologically. If I were her doctor or her partner I might worry about the biology, but since I'm not it's pretty straightforward, if unusual.

ETA: I'm sure there are a large number of people going "but penis + penis can't be heterosexual!" so I repeat: heterosexual gender orientation, which is what matters to the rest of us; homosexual sex (biological) orientation.

[Try2B Comprehensive]

Thanks, Dr. Drake. I want to avoid pissing this person off next time she's around, and don't exactly want to corner her with these specific questions either.

It makes the OP question tough as others point out. Are situationally-gay people (those in repressive societies) therefore gay too? Or bi? If massive social pressures result in more homosexual behavior rather than arising as a matter of preference, is there a distinction?

[YogSosoth]

More likely to be Urugay.

Then there's only 1!

[Hero From Sector 7G]

gender roles in Afghanistan can sometimes be complicated.Can't we just accept that gender roles are complicated everywhere and proceed with the original question?

[Johanna]

All of them I talked with, and all Filipinos that talked about them, considered them to be gay. I was told many times that the Bakla's never wanted other Bakla's, they only wanted men that looked straight.
See, to me that sounds like the very definition of heterosexuality. Rejecting your own gender for a straight person of a different gender. And yet they call it gay.

[ShibbOleth]

Vatican City?

Because, while the other countries mentioned are all very nice, the Vatican City is simply divine?

[Paul in Qatar]

Saudi Arabia (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/5774/)

I'm serious.

Seconded.

[voltaire]

But homosocial societies and practice do generate more "gay sex". So, countries that live along those lines will have more "gays" (even though this would be a very large definition of gay, as it would include otherwise straight people that get on gay sex, just to have sex, or even have a relationship). Afghanistan ranks pretty high in separation between the sexes.

Exactly - just like prison. Is an otherwise heterosexual person "gay" because they engage in sexual activities with the same gender when that is all that's available to them, but then once they are released from prison (or get married, in the case of Afghanistan) they go back to having sex with the opposite gender?

Can't we just accept that gender roles are complicated everywhere and proceed with the original question?
Certainly, we can - I was just highlighting that fact while responding to an unfounded assertion. But because of how complicated the definition of "gay" is, and because of the fact that there are no dependable statistics for every country in the world, a definitive answer to the OP is pretty much impossible.

I'm kind of surprised this thread is still in GQ... think I'll report my own post and see if a mod agrees that this belongs elsewhere.

[Nava]

And I don't think orientation is usually asked about on a census (though it may report prevalence of same-sex couples living together, which might be a helpful metric - again though only in countries that tolerate it).

Flawed metholologies

You may be able to find those calculations some groups ran using the last Spanish Census Report, where they treated any household with two same-gender 'not-directly related' people as being "a gay couple". The definition of 'not directly related' being, in this case, "further away that parent/child", they'd included not only students but also siblings, grandparent/grandchild, uncle/nephew... the joke I've heard most often re. that debacle was "by that definition, you usual 3-4 students flat is an orgy and student dorms are porn studios".

[dtilque]

The answer is whatever country the Flintstones live in. After all, they're always having a "gay old time".

[Krokodil]

Again, what is the factual basis for this assumption? I don't get it. Is blonde hair found in consistent proportions across all countries? Average heights? Congenital disorders? Even the sex ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio) at birth is not quite consistent across all countries. So why would we assume that sexual orientation is?

Because sexual orientation is more analogous to left- or right-handedness than to hair color, or to congenital disorders. And lefties occur at a pretty consistent rate across racial and geographic borders, a rate very comparable with same-sex attraction.

[Johanna]

You may be able to find those calculations some groups ran using the last Spanish Census Report, where they treated any household with two same-gender 'not-directly related' people as being "a gay couple". The definition of 'not directly related' being, in this case, "further away that parent/child", they'd included not only students but also siblings, grandparent/grandchild, uncle/nephew... the joke I've heard most often re. that debacle was "by that definition, you usual 3-4 students flat is an orgy and student dorms are porn studios".
LOL, that is one grotesque abuse of statistics. If it had been designed by agents provocateurs to discredit the gay rights movement, it would look just like that.

[Romeo and Whatsherface]

In America I might see only one transvestite or transsexual in a years time.
.

At least, you only see one transvestite who does such a poor job of dressing that he/she is obviously a transvestite.

My ex-husband is a transvestite. I didn't know until he came out to me 20 years after we were married. (I didn't divorce him because he was a transvestite, but let me tell you, adjusting to that revelation was hell. You have no idea of the levels on which it affects you, and I'm a pretty accepting gal.) He connected with a lot of other transvestites online, and eventually I met some of his TV friends. I realize this is anecdotal, but one anecdote can shatter a stereotype.

Most transvestites are not gay.
Most transvestites are not and do not become transgendered.
My own theory is that there is a very wide spectrum on gender and normalcy, but that's another post for another SDMB.

[Boyo Jim]

...In America I might see only one transvestite or transsexual in a years time...

You will if them a lot more frequently if you spend a lot of time in large American cities.

[boytyperanma]

Exactly - just like prison. Is an otherwise heterosexual person "gay" because they engage in sexual activities with the same gender when that is all that's available to them, but then once they are released from prison (or get married, in the case of Afghanistan) they go back to having sex with the opposite gender?

They could be an otherwise homosexual person 'straight' because they have given into the social pressure to be straight, prison is an escape form that pressure where they are given the leeway they need to pursue relationships they might not otherwise be able to.

[Rigamarole]

Because sexual orientation is more analogous to left- or right-handedness than to hair color, or to congenital disorders.

Why so?

[Rigamarole]

In America I might see only one transvestite or transsexual in a years time.

You will if them a lot more frequently if you spend a lot of time in large American cities.

Particularly West Hollywood. :D

[Derleth]

Are transvestites and transgenders necessarily cissexuals, then? Obviously, a transsexual is going to want to dress and act like their preferred gender and sexual identity, so assigning all three labels to the same person seems a bit overkill.

Also: If a Western woman decided to occasionally dress like a Western man, I don't know how many people would be able to tell the difference.

And from the confused contradistinction file: "You mean she's a lesbian and a bisexual?"

[BigT]

Hetero- v. homosexuality is really not that useful a term if your society has three genders.

[Johanna]

Are transvestites and transgenders necessarily cissexuals, then? Obviously, a transsexual is going to want to dress and act like their preferred gender and sexual identity, so assigning all three labels to the same person seems a bit overkill.
The word transgender is so poorly defined, nobody knows exactly what anyone else means by it. The word may be applicable as an umbrella name for various disparate groups to form a political coalition for perceived common goals. But as a designation for an individual, it really tells you nothing about who they are. That's why I avoid using the word. It rarely brings clarity and more often causes obfuscation.

And from the confused contradistinction file: "You mean she's a lesbian and a bisexual?"There are individual women who are able to experience sexual arousal with respect to both men and women, but nevertheless feel they're only able to form strong relationships with women, and consequently never date men. Such women are bisexual in theory and de facto lesbian. This is one possible way of falling under both headings at once.

[Derleth]

The word transgender is so poorly defined, nobody knows exactly what anyone else means by it. The word may be applicable as an umbrella name for various disparate groups to form a political coalition for perceived common goals. But as a designation for an individual, it really tells you nothing about who they are. That's why I avoid using the word. It rarely brings clarity and more often causes obfuscation.OK, but would a transsexual ever be called a transvestite by someone who knew the difference? (I kind of suspected throwing 'transgender' in there might muddy things a bit.)

There are individual women who are able to experience sexual arousal with respect to both men and women, but nevertheless feel they're only able to form strong relationships with women, and consequently never date men. Such women are bisexual in theory and de facto lesbian. This is one possible way of falling under both headings at once.For context, the person responsible for that quote wouldn't understand a blessed word of that lucid explanation. For my own part, I like the terms hetero-, bi-, and homoromantic as distinguished from hetero-, bi-, and homosexual, where the 'romantic' part means a relationship that extends beyond the bedroom.

[Imasquare]

Transvestites have not had surgery.
Transsexuals have had sex change surgery.

In my years of living in the Philippines I met and saw many transvestites, but I am not aware of many transsexuals. Most of them just cannot afford the surgery even if they want it.

All of them I talked with, and all Filipinos that talked about them, considered them to be gay. I was told many times that the Bakla's never wanted other Bakla's, they only wanted men that looked straight.

Some of the Thai Katoeys look so much like women that it is difficult to know.
But, most Baklas appear more masculine to me. Most of them look like men with makeup.

In the Philippines the lesbians are referred to as "tomboys", and are considered gay, even the ones that dress and act like men.
There is a lesbian bar next to a favorite restaurant of mine and the couples almost always consisted of one "butch" and one "femme".

Maybe this is all too simplistic and not very PC, but are just my observations in Thailand and the Phils.It's not quite as simple as that Homer.

Transsexuals are people who feel they have been born in the wrong body. For example a boy may feel like he should have been be a girl and vice-versa. They are transsexuals whether they have had surgery or not. Usually they have felt this way as long as they can remember (3 or 4 years old in some cases).

Transvestites are those who dress in the clothing of the opposite sex but who do not want to be the other sex. Many transvestites obtain sexual gratification through cross-dressing.

This is actually quite a very simplistic overview - it's a lot more complicated in real life.

[Johanna]

OK, but would a transsexual ever be called a transvestite by someone who knew the difference? I'm afraid that happens all the time, out of ignorance and hatred. Or else it's just "faggot," because all LGBT people are lumped into the same category by ignorant haters.

[Namkcalb]

Hi, I've created a flip thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14215267#post14215267)