Cavalry, calvary and colloquial uasage.

[Backwater Under_Duck]

In So Cal, for the past few years we've been visited with a Civil War reenactment at a regional park close to me. It's kind of on the small side, but that's fine. You get a sample demonstration of, say, the battle of Gettysburg with a dozen or so soldiers representing brigades and battalions and so forth going through the basic mechanics of the battle and what happened when and where. (Although when you have a handful of guys who can't get around 10 feet of fence, it looks a little like Blazing Saddles. 'Somebody's gonna have to go back and get a shitload of dimes.')

Any way were sitting around waiting for the battle demo to start. We were with the Confederates who were set to "charge" the Federals up on the hill yonder, and this mounted soldier starts describing what we were going to see, and how he and his group were dressed as some specific North Carolina detachment. And then he specifically referred to his unit as a "Calvary" brigade. I did not mishear what he said. I can't believe that in an anachronistic society such as theirs, with their attention to detail, that he did not know the correct word. So I assumed that here was speaking the way them fellers actually talked.

So, to the GQ: Was it common among "Cavalry" types of either side in the 19th century to confuse their vocation with a hill in Palestine? I would imagine there is enough written source material to know this.

[Bri2k]

I agree. Most participants in the Civil War were much better versed in the bible than we are today and I'd imagine they'd know the difference between cavalry and Calvary. If they didn't know the correct phrase before they joined the army, they'd learn it in training.

Bri2k

[Askance]

. So I assumed that here was speaking the way them fellers actually talked.
I wouldn't assume that at all. I see this mistake made all the time, by people who ought to know better.

[njtt]

I have noticed that many Americans (Californians, anyway) also confuse another Biblical mountain, Carmel, with the sweet sticky confection, caramel.

(That is to say, they pronounce, and sometimes spell, "caramel" without the a.)

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

I don't know if it was "common," but a cursory stroll thru pre-1940 Google News Archives shows numerous print citations of "calvary" being used in place of "cavalry." Not a ton, but I think if it made it past some number of editors, it possibly had some level of currency even back then. "Cal-va-ry" is noted as a pronunciation in Merriam-Webster, although it is marked with an obelus, which indicates that certain segments of the population look down on it.

[OldGuy]

I have noticed that many Americans (Californians, anyway) also confuse another Biblical mountain, Carmel, with the sweet sticky confection, caramel.

(That is to say, they pronounce, and sometimes spell, "caramel" without the a.)

It's more likely they're confusing it with the town Carmel in California.

[california jobcase]

Nah. The town in California's pronounced car-MEL. CAR-mel's just north of Indianapolis.

The only people I've ever heard pronounce the candy care-a-mel are the commercial narrators.

[Yorikke]

I just wanted to say, without reading even one word of the thread, that I want to throttle people who say "calvary" instead of "cavalry."

That is all

Joe

[TreacherousCretin]

I just wanted to say, without reading even one word of the thread, that I want to throttle people who say "calvary" instead of "cavalry." That is all
Joe

If you have a spare moment, would you also throttle the CNN News anchorwoman who said "ecksettra" day before yesterday?

.

[Yorikke]

If you have a spare moment, would you also throttle the CNN News anchorwoman who said "ecksettra" day before yesterday?

.

Sure. And the people who say "chipolte."

Joe

[dracoi]

Sure. And the people who say "chipolte."

Joe

Oooooh those people make me mad. Especially when they're chefs.

It's almost as bad as "nuculer." Especially when said by a President.

[awldune]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_(linguistics)

Metathesis is responsible for the most common types of speech errors, such as children acquiring spaghetti as pasketti. The metathesized pronunciation of ask as ax /ˈæks/ goes back to Old English days, when ascian and axian/acsian were both in use.

Some other frequent English pronunciations that display metathesis are:

asterisk → asterix /ˈæstərɪks/
cavalry → calvary /ˈkælvəri/
comfortable → comfterble /ˈkʌmftərbəl/
foliage → foilage /ˈfɔɪlɪdʒ/
introduce → interduce /ɪntərˈdjuːs/
integral → intergal /ˈɪntərɡəl/ or intregal /ˈɪntrɪɡəl/
nuclear → nucular /ˈnjuːkjələr/ (re-analysed as nuke + -cular suffix in particular, binocular)
pretty → purty /ˈpərti/
relevant → revelant /ˈrɛvələnt/


In my experience "calvary" is often produced as an error rather than a dialectal variation. It is coming from phonological processes (avoiding the /lr/ sequence) rather than from analogy to the Biblical location.

[Xema]

It's almost as bad as "nuculer." Especially when said by a President.
And most especially when said President had qualified for service about nuclear-powered submarines.

[Slithy Tove]

he and his group were dressed as some specific North Carolina detachment. And then he specifically referred to his unit as a "Calvary" brigade.

Maybe they were a splinter group.

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

They probably had a lot of people on board.

[TreacherousCretin]

And most especially when said President had qualified for service about nuclear-powered submarines.

Are you referring to Jimmie Carter? Because I never heard him say "nuclear" OR "nukular"; he always pronounced it "noo- kee-ur."

[Keeve]

Nice cite, awldune. But you left these out:

iron → iern
Wednesday → Wendsday
environment → envierment
February → Febyuary

[Blake]

Nice cite, awldune. But you left these out:

iron → iern
Wednesday → Wendsday
February → Febyuary

You do realise that those are the standard pronunciations in most English dialects, and have been for centuries, right?

As with the recent trend towards pronouncing forehead as "fore-head", your apparent attempts to pronounce those words as spelled is a very recent variation. They all seem to be entirely down to the development of a population that was simultaneously literate yet not very well educated. In previous eras literate people tended to be educated as well, and knew enough to recognise that spelling was not tied to pronunciation in English. Sometime in the 19th century the growing number so poorly educated yet literate people saw a trend towards trying to pronounce words as spelled.

Iron is pronounced "ion" or "iern", not "eye-ron".

Wednesday is derived from "Woden's day" and has been pronounced as "wedens day" or more coommonly "we'nds day" for at least 100 years.

February has been pronounced as "Feb-yoo-airy" (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/En-us-February.ogg) for at least 500 years, a fact which we can ascertain by its commonly being used to rhyme with "January". The vast majority of English speakers still pronounce it that way. This penchant for trying to throttle one's vocal chords and pronounce it as "Feb-roo-wairy" seems to be very recent, as in the last 50 years. Worse yet, most people who do try that pronunciation seem to end up with the abomination that is "Febburry" instead, with nary a trace of the "w" sound. :smack:

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Iron is pronounced "ion" or "iern", not "eye-ron". And of all the ironies, that has to be the ironest. -- Jimmy Durante

[Keeve]

You do realise that those are the standard pronunciations in most English dialects, and have been for centuries, right?Yes, I do realize this. In fact, that's why I chose such extremely common examples, and that's the very point I'm trying to make: These changes are natural, normal, and should be expected.

And that people who say "Wendsday" shouldn't complain about those who say "nucular".

[Blake]

Yes, I do realize this. In fact, that's why I chose such extremely common examples, and that's the very point I'm trying to make: These changes are natural, normal, and should be expected.

And that people who say "Wendsday" shouldn't complain about those who say "nucular".

Yeah, they should. The reason Wednesday is pronounced differently to its spelling is because the spelling was standardised centuries, if not milennia, after the pronunciation. There was never a time when the word was pronounced as spelled, there was never s time when "Weden's day" was an incorrect pronunciation. If anything "Wednesday" was an incorrect spelling of the way the word has always been pronounced.

Compare that with "nuclear": a very different situation. The word has only existed in this context for a century. There has always been a very clear, correct pronunciation and the spelling reflects that pronunciation. "Nucular" is a lazy and incorrect pronunciation in every English dialect. It isn't a dialectical variant. It isn't an original pronunciation. It's just plain wrong.

[smiling bandit]

Yeah, they should. The reason Wednesday is pronounced differently to its spelling is because the spelling was standardised centuries, if not milennia, after the pronunciation. There was never a time when the word was pronounced as spelled, there was never s time when "Weden's day" was an incorrect pronunciation. If anything "Wednesday" was an incorrect spelling of the way the word has always been pronounced.

If you would kindly read the above again, you will note there is a difference between the common and perfectly fine "Wednesday" and "Woden's Day" in pronunciation.

Compare that with "nuclear": a very different situation. The word has only existed in this context for a century. There has always been a very clear, correct pronunciation and the spelling reflects that pronunciation. "Nucular" is a lazy and incorrect pronunciation in every English dialect. It isn't a dialectical variant. It isn't an original pronunciation. It's just plain wrong.

Judgemental, much? There are a lot of people who, along with a heck of a lot of people around them, pronounce it that very way. They know exactly what they're takling about and so do we. It's correct enough for English.

This isn't French. There's no National Grammar Service to enforce proper language. Deal with it.

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

There are a lot of people who, along with a heck of a lot of people around them, pronounce [nuclear] that very way. They know exactly what they're takling about and so do we. It's correct enough for English. Also marked in M-W with an obelus (as with the other cite mentioned above).

[UncleRojelio]

ˈæstərɪks
ˈkælvəri
ˈkʌmftərbəl
ˈfɔɪlɪdʒ
ɪntərˈdjuːs
ˈɪntrɪɡəl
ˈnjuːkjələr
ˈpərti
ˈrɛvələnt


If I were curious about what all that gobbeldygook meant, where would I go to find out?

[DSeid]

FWIW (http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2010/02/18/bush-and-carters-nuclear-pronunciation-might-be-right) ... former President Dwight Eisenhower and Edward Teller, the father of the H-bomb, also said "nukular." Now comes a new book that defends them. In Physics for Future Presidents, Prof. Richard Muller of the University of California says the pronunciation "has been a tradition at some of our weapons labs since World War II." He says it derives from the "combination of 'nuke' with the ending '-ular' inspired by similar words such as spectacular, popular, and molecular." Bill Clinton apparently said it both ways.

No, there has not "always been a very clear, correct pronunciation." Both have always been used.

And my petty annoyance is when people write "loose" for "lose" ... I hate that.

[awldune]

If I were curious about what all that gobbeldygook meant, where would I go to find out?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

Edit: actually, this is probably more useful to the novice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_chart_for_English_dialects

[Keeve]

Yeah, they should. The reason Wednesday is pronounced differently to its spelling is because the spelling was standardised centuries, if not milennia, after the pronunciation. There was never a time when the word was pronounced as spelled, there was never s time when "Weden's day" was an incorrect pronunciation. If anything "Wednesday" was an incorrect spelling of the way the word has always been pronounced.I have no idea what you are saying. If you are saying that it is correct to pronounce the "n" before the "d", then how does that name of Woden justify that?

[Xema]

Are you referring to Jimmie Carter? Because I never heard him say "nuclear" OR "nukular"; he always pronounced it "noo- kee-ur."
There seems to be disagreement as to his pronunciation (http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2010/02/18/bush-and-carters-nuclear-pronunciation-might-be-right) - but a general sense that he had little use for "nu-clear".

[TreacherousCretin]

There seems to be disagreement as to his pronunciation (http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2010/02/18/bush-and-carters-nuclear-pronunciation-might-be-right) - but a general sense that he had little use for "nu-clear".

Interesting link. I always heard him say nukear, and only read/heard references to his pronouncing it that way, but am happy to now stand corrected. Ignorance fought.

For whatever it's worth, I voted for Jimmie, liked him then, and still do. "Nukular" makes me cringe, but JC's "nukear" always cracked me up.

.
Edit: "There seems to be disagreement" - or in English, you were to too polite to just say I was wrong. Thank you.

[AskNott]

I have changed my attitude toward all that pronunciation stuff. These days, I'm less likely to correct others' errors, as long as the meaning is clear. I think all those announcers know how to say integral and communication, but they can't get their mouths to do it.

If you say all four syllables of vegetable, it's easier to remember how to spell it. People look at me funny when I say it that way, though.