You call *this* disabled-accessible?

[Nava]

While the closest I've personally been to disability has been minor surgery on a heel, we have quite a few posters who are permanently disabled and many more who've been temporarily disabled. For some reason, disabled accesibility has been very much in my mind these last few years.

I've noticed quite often buildings which were designed with accesibility in mind but which failed. Maybe they had ramps everywhere - except at the only gate. Maybe they had wide-door, disabled-designated bathrooms, with the path to them barred by a narrower-than-usual door. Maybe there were hallways where going around a corner in a chair involved a manoeuver so complicated that people watching someone perform it successfully applauded. Maybe the automatic gates (the ones whose opening mechanism doubled as the clocking-in system) were wide enough for a chair, but not for someone on crutches. Don't get me started on signage - the lift's buttons are in Braille, but for anything else your name better be Matt Murdock.

Perhaps "spending one day going around with your eyes blindfolded, another one in a wheelchair and a third on crutches" should be a part of any architect's training.

Please share your stories of good, bad and ugly Disabled Accesible Design. Thanks!

[anyrose]

Don't get me started!
I've seen strip malls with handicap parking spots but no curb cuts on the sidewalk.
At one supermarket, the spaces opposite the entrance (and by default opposite the curb cut) were marked "Reserved for Families with Small Children" and the handicap spots were way at the end of the bank of parking spaces.
I've been in restaurants in which the restrooms have been retrofitted to be accessible, but the entrance to the restaurant is up a flight of stairs
I've been in a rheumatologist's office with no handicap parking and no accesible bathroom.
In my office there is an accessible stall in each restroom, but it does not have the symbol on the door so everyone uses it even when the regular stalls are available, leaving me to wait and risk an "accident".
I often wonder what goes through the mind of architects who design parking lots. Do they think that all handicapped people are in wheelchairs and therefore do not need to be right next to the door?
The hotel at which we have regional competition had sufficient accesible restroom facilities on the public/meeting/event floors, until it was taken over by another chain in 2007, who decided to replace the large stalls with two standard ones, leaving the only accessible restroom in the lobby as far away from the elevators as possible.
I brought this to the attention of the ADA Commission, and when we were there in March, the hotel had already begun reinstalling the accessible stalls.

[Cicero]

Just waiting for the inevitable...

[jabiru]

We were going out as a family for Fathers' Day last week. Booked the taxi which turned up with a 'cut price conversions' sticker on it. Dead giveaway that it was NOT going to be accessible after all.

There goes the family day out for Fathers Day. What's the point of wheelchair accessible taxis if they're not?

[aruvqan]

Last building I worked in [the company has since moved to a new building] had a ramp going from the driveway to the front doors. I had to tell them several times to get building maintenance out there prior to 7 am to clear the ramp when it snowed. You can not safely go up a ramp in ice and slush on crutches, and barely in a chair. The front doors are not button operated, the only button operated doors in the building other than elevators [heh] are the 2 bathrooms on the ground floor. All the offices no matter who the occupant was [the building had 4 floors of my company and 2 floors of various other people's offices] had their main entrances or any 'public access points] locked with swipe cards that takes a juggling act to swipe the card and get to the door and open it for people on crutches, in a wheelchair impossible.

Literally, they would have had to spend a fair amount of money adding swipe auto-open doors everywhere. Easily half a million or more.

Business buildings are not designed to be easily accessed by people in wheelchairs now the security paranoids have managed to lock down every damned door in the building. I say put pushbuttons everywhere and issue everybody tasers for security.

[anyrose]

Just waiting for the inevitable...
and what would that be?

[Joey P]

When my sister had hip surgery last year and was on crutches for a few months she noticed that the handicapped ramp at her college had a big sewer grate at the bottom. Maneuvering the crutches around that was always quite the feat, or so I'm told. Of course, being Miss Shy, she absolutely refused to go and ask if there might be another handicapped accessible exit somewhere else that she could use.

[Ellen Cherry]

Moving from MPSIMS to IMHO.

[Mangetout]

The building where I work has one stall in each washroom that is adapted for disabled people - it's wider, door opens outward, handrails fitted, etc.

The washrooms are situated on the alternate landings between flights of stairs in the stairwell. Only accessible via a narrow, heavy door into the stairwell, then a flight of ten steps.

[Dendarii Dame]

After a heavy snowfall, a supermarket in my area had huge drifts moved into the handicapped parking spots.

[Lute Skywatcher]

In my office there is an accessible stall in each restroom, but it does not have the symbol on the doorSeems to be common, it's the same in this complex. One pair of buildings I worked in had great access, the accessible stall had its own room!

I'm a bit claustrophobic and prefer the wide stall here because the others are so darn narrow.

[Anaamika]

Our front and back doors have automatic buttons (they seem too quick to me, but what do I know) but the bathrooms do not. We don't have anyone normally in our offices with a wheelchair, but we do have a bank that is open to the public, and one day I came across a wheelchair-bound woman struggling to get the door open, wheel out of the way, and go through it. Two doors, no less. I helped her, but I realized I had never even noticed how difficult that must be.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing any button-operated doors outside the lobby other than one specific floor where a guy with a cane works.

[Tapiotar]

Don't get me started!

I often wonder what goes through the mind of architects who design parking lots. Do they think that all handicapped people are in wheelchairs and therefore do not need to be right next to the door?


This. My father uses a walker, but even with this, he can't walk long distances. Often the handicapped parking space is so far away from the destination (restaurant, restroom on interstate rest stop, etc) he just can't make it. The architects seem to think that all disabled people use scooters or motorized wheelchairs -- but it just isn't so.

[BigT]

and what would that be?

Just a poster that seems to be a little bit preoccupied with his disability. My opinion is that it's more the responses to him that wind up hijacking threads.

Plus, I haven't seen him in a while. I wouldn't be surprised if he was also tired of those responses.

Anyways:

I hate non-labeled handicapped stuff, too. In fact, I'm one of those who was guilty of using a handicapped bathroom and not realizing why the guy in the wheelchair was upset. It just didn't dawn on me he couldn't use the other stall, as it looked big enough.

I also remember my sister having a wheelchair after knee surgery. There was this school with this really steep ramp. But at leas that was better than going uphill in the parking lot, which is what we'd have had to do at her next school. Fortunately, she got to crutches by the time of her second surgery.

[Hari Seldon]

My office building, after resisting for decades finally put in button-operated doors and a small ramp up the one very low step. There is also a ramp from the parking area to the entrance, but that is blocked off all winter. There is a parking area in the subbasement of the building, but the elevator goes only to the first basement. And there appear to be no accessible toilets. The entry is down a narrow corridor and you have to open the door out. The stalls are too narrow anyway. Even an ordinary person has trouble getting into the stall and closing the door.

Last week I witnessed a woman on crutches trying to enter a Starbucks. She looked very experienced using the crutches, but the door nearly defeated her. She would open it as far as she could and then try to prevent it from closing with one crutch while getting inside. I was about to help her when she succeeded, but I knew there was a second door inside (all buildings in Montreal have this sort of airlock for the winter). Now I have seen doors that close very slowly until they are nearly closed and only then snap shut, but obviously Starbucks couldn't be bothered to use them.

On the train I use to go home, the door at the bottom of the stairs from the station is so tightly sprung that I find it very difficult to open them and I have held it open for people who seem to be feeble. I see no reason it has to be like this.

[Czarcasm]

Just waiting for the inevitable...The only "inevitable" I see here your preemptive attack on someone who has every right to post in this thread due to his experience. Take it elsewhere.

[thelabdude]

A few years ago, we had to play the service dog card to allow 70 pound Tux to stay at the Warren PA Holiday Inn. We were given a handicap room. I didn't see any problems with it, but may not know what to look for. It was conveniently located just inside a door. Nice for us to take him out to relieve himself. We had no problem with the 8'' step up to the door.

I asked my friend if her guide dog was trained to find the buttons that activate doors. She just grimaced.

[Ambivalid]

Those of us who depend on handicap-accessibility in order to function in the world know all too well of the many pitfalls and just plain nonsensical realities that this world offers. I could go on for pages about the various situations I've found myself in where, for one reason or another, I was prevented (or forced to go to extreme lengths to enter/use) from visiting an establishment.

The most common issue is unusable bathrooms. Alot of restaurants/businesses were built before ADA regulations were in place and they are allowed to forgo compliance due to what is known as a "Grandfather clause". But even some that claim to be "handicap accessible" have stall doors that are much too narrow for a wheelchair to clear through.

Or the parking lot/cut curb situations at some businesses are crazy. I was at a bowling alley a few months ago and I parked in the handicap parking space. This space had no cut curb allowing me to go from my parking car directly to the entrance of the bowling alley. I was met by a three foot high brick wall instead. So, I had to wheel WAY out into this huge parking lot, all the way around to the back side (in front of all the traffic) just to get to the cut curb so I could get to the door.

My point is that it is too huge a fight to get caught up in every single business that doesn't comply with accessibility issues. It really is. If I made an issue out of every establishment/business that didn't have an accessible bathroom/parking lot (or whatever), I'd never even have time to breath (much less anything else). It's sad but true. I try to talk to management when I can, and let them know what they can do but that is it, I just go elsewhere when I can.

Like I said, I could go on for pages.

[Asimovian]

The cut curb thing is really strange and thoughtless to me. My fiancee and I were just discussing this yesterday as we were walking through the streets of downtown LA. Most of the corners here have cutouts, but they primarily face one direction.

So, for example, say a person in a wheelchair wants to cross the street going south. The light turns green for traffic heading north and south. However, the cutout faces primarily (or entirely) toward the east. This forces the individual to have to wheel out into the intersection in front of traffic in order to get over and into the crosswalk. I'm not sure how anybody considers that acceptable.

[Ambivalid]

The cut curb thing is really strange and thoughtless to me. My fiancee and I were just discussing this yesterday as we were walking through the streets of downtown LA. Most of the corners here have cutouts, but they primarily face one direction.

So, for example, say a person in a wheelchair wants to cross the street going south. The light turns green for traffic heading north and south. However, the cutout faces primarily (or entirely) toward the east. This forces the individual to have to wheel out into the intersection in front of traffic in order to get over and into the crosswalk. I'm not sure how anybody considers that acceptable.

I know when I tried to talk to the management at that bowling alley about the cut-curb (or lack-thereof) situation, they told me that the local township ordinances prohibited them from putting cut curbs anywhere other than where they currently were. This made absolutely no sense to me. However, too many other obstacles are my life right now, so I just plan on never frequenting this place again (I'm not a bowler anyway, I was just meeting a couple people there).

[Asimovian]

I know when I tried to talk to the management at that bowling alley about the cut-curb (or lack-thereof) situation, they told me that the local township ordinances prohibited them from putting cut curbs anywhere other than where they currently were. This made absolutely no sense to me. However, too many other obstacles are my life right now, so I just plan on never frequenting this place again (I'm not a bowler anyway, I was just meeting a couple people there).Do you think they're lying? I wouldn't be shocked to find out that some city ordinances were quite wacky.

[anyrose]

Do you think they're lying? I wouldn't be shocked to find out that some city ordinances were quite wacky.
agreed - it's not the alley's fault. I've run in to municipal red tape in many instances.

eta - If the alley owns the land, lot, sidewalk, and building, then it's their fault.

[chiroptera]

A few years ago, we had to play the service dog card to allow 70 pound Tux to stay at the Warren PA Holiday Inn. We were given a handicap room. I didn't see any problems with it, but may not know what to look for. It was conveniently located just inside a door. Nice for us to take him out to relieve himself. We had no problem with the 8'' step up to the door.

I asked my friend if her guide dog was trained to find the buttons that activate doors. She just grimaced.

So...you fraudulently labeled Tux as a service dog so he could stay in the room with you?

[Filbert]

Slightly different, but our local council came up with this (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Misleading-paving-puts-blind-people-Bristol/story-13185103-detail/story.html) gem lately- a textured pavement, designed as a marker for blind people to indicate pedestrian crossings, which instead leads straight into 4 lanes of busy traffic, with no crossing. :smack:

It's quite common here to see an accessible toilet (as a seperate room), built perfectly to proper standards, but full of junk and used as a store room.

When my parents opened their visitor centre, we actually spend a day pushing each other round in a spare wheelchair, checking how good the access was, and how readable signs were and things like that. It really should be standard practice in designing places, it's amazing how much difference there is between what you think is fine and what's actually fine.

[aruvqan]

So...you fraudulently labeled Tux as a service dog so he could stay in the room with you?
Hate to point fingers, but that is what it sounds like. And every person who kites a pet in as a service dog makes it harder for people to take real service dogs seriously. Especially the nasty little lap rats .. because pwecious snukumz just *has* to go everywhere with their inane owner.:rolleyes:

[chiroptera]

I just thought of this - last Sunday, I was out with a friend. On the way home, we stopped at Arby's (classy, I know). I was driving, she is disabled but had forgotten to bring her placard. Was no big deal, the few places we stopped I could get close enough that she could hobble with parking in regular spaces. (Cane/walker, no wheelchair.)

The Arby's at Great Lakes Crossing in Aubrn Hills, MI has their disabled parking slots across the lot from the front door, instead of right up close.

anecdote: I know someone with a real service dog who is sometimes questioned and very often annoyed by people who want proof that her dog is legit.

[thelabdude]

So...you fraudulently labeled Tux as a service dog so he could stay in the room with you?

No, Tux had a service dog tag and we were completely honest about his status as a puppy being raised for a service dog school. The laws covering them vary from state to state and may not have been meant to cover them. Usually we select hotels that allow pets and avoid discussion of our dog's status. There aren't that many places to stay in Warren and none of them allowed 70 pound pet dogs.

[CanvasShoes]

Several years ago I broke a leg bone (well disintegrated it really) and ended up in a wheelchair for about 5 weeks. I also used crutches a bit, but my upper body strength wasn't really up to par enough for me to get around very well with them.

At any rate, at the time I taught PE classes at a university in Anchorage. The way to the pool (for those wheelchair bound) went something like this. Up a looooooooong wheelchair ramp to an elevator ---> up one floor ---> through a set of double doors ---> down a long hallway to another elevator ---> down one floor into the locker room.

Ridiculous!

[Lynn Bodoni]

The building where I work has one stall in each washroom that is adapted for disabled people - it's wider, door opens outward, handrails fitted, etc.

The washrooms are situated on the alternate landings between flights of stairs in the stairwell. Only accessible via a narrow, heavy door into the stairwell, then a flight of ten steps. I think this is gonna be the thread winner, here.

This. My father uses a walker, but even with this, he can't walk long distances. Often the handicapped parking space is so far away from the destination (restaurant, restroom on interstate rest stop, etc) he just can't make it. The architects seem to think that all disabled people use scooters or motorized wheelchairs -- but it just isn't so. I am trying very hard to stay OUT of a power chair/wheelchair/whatever. I've lost about a third of my total body weight, I exercise every day, and my stamina has improved...but I still have balance and mobility issues. I can't walk for long distances, and I can't walk for a long time. I need to sit down now and then. I mean, I've improved a lot, but I just can't go out walking for 8 hours like I used to do. And sometimes I fall over for no visible reason. There are times when I want to go somewhere, but I don't feel up to walking in 100+ heat for 20 minutes. And in fact, my doctor has forbidden me to do so.

There's a medical complex in Fort Worth that has a lot of doctors and medical services in it, but I won't go to it. The complex is sprawled over several huge buildings, and the directions and maps are pretty much nonexistent, as is the signage. The only real way to find out which building has a particular doctor in it is to go in and ask at the information desk. The buildings aren't visibly labelled, and by the time I've made all those stupid parking lot turns, I can't tell which way is North any more. So, I don't go to any doctor or service that's located in that complex.

It's not just me, there are a LOT of people with heart or breathing problems that can't, or at least shouldn't, be out in extreme weather, or who can't walk far without resting.

[Silvorange]

I got married in a church that had a few steps at the front door, but no wheelchair ramp. I was assured that they had a moveable ramp that would be set up before the wedding. My mother, one of my bridesmaids, and another family member were wheelchair users.

I wasn't there when my mom was helped in, so I didn't see what the ramp situation was. I'm guessing she somehow didn't get the full picture on the way in, though I've never figured out how that happened. I assume she had a crowd of people around who were helping her and possibly blocking her view.

Anyway, after the wedding, Mom went out without anyone in front of her. Fortunately, my very strong sister was right behind her, because that was when they discovered that the so-called ramp was a fucking piece of plywood propped up on the steps! It was icy out anyway, and Mom's wheels just pushed the plywood forward. My sister grabbed her as she started to tilt forward, and the chair bumped down the steps.

I actually belonged to a separate small church that used this church building , but didn't own it, so we could not put in a ramp ourselves. After I was married. I began taking a developmentally disabled teenage boy I knew to church with me most weeks. It took several of us to get him up and down that stupid piece of plywood every week.

I asked the pastor of the church that owned the building about putting up a ramp. He said they didn't need one because they didn't have any members in wheelchairs, and it wouldn't look good on their building. My church offered to pay for it and do the work, but it was not allowed.

Like most people who have had close family or friends with disabilities, I could go on for a while.

[Nava]

Slightly different, but our local council came up with this (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Misleading-paving-puts-blind-people-Bristol/story-13185103-detail/story.html) gem lately- a textured pavement, designed as a marker for blind people to indicate pedestrian crossings, which instead leads straight into 4 lanes of busy traffic, with no crossing. :smack:

Lord, I hate those pavements. I do hope blind people find them useful (when they don't lead into traffic, of course), but... in many locations, the area which is textured is the same area which slopes down, and those textures are hell on most people's feet - I'm not really sure the idea works at all.

[tumbleddown]

At one supermarket, the spaces opposite the entrance (and by default opposite the curb cut) were marked "Reserved for Families with Small Children" and the handicap spots were way at the end of the bank of parking spaces.
This is a problem I'm running into often. Pennsylvania statute says that the reserved spaces for people with disabilities should be the spaces "closest to the door." Stores are, however, interpreting that as "closest to the door without having to cross traffic" because they're presuming wheelchair/scooter use, presuming that it's dangerous for people on wheels to cross traffic in a parking lot, and presuming that distance doesn't matter for people on wheels. Meanwhile, the vast majority of people with placards/plates aren't on wheels at all.

At my local Costco and my local Aldi, this "no crossing traffic" ideal means that the reserved spots are twice as far as the actual closest spots.
I asked the pastor of the church that owned the building about putting up a ramp. He said they didn't need one because they didn't have any members in wheelchairs, and it wouldn't look good on their building.
Ah, Christian love in action! Yeah, this is what we hear from businesses all the time, too. "We don't have any customers who use wheelchairs, so we don't need to install a ramp/widen the aisles/to kill the clutter." Yeah, and so long as you don't have a ramp or navigable aisles, you'll never have customers (or church members, etc.) who use wheelchairs because you've made it blatantly clear that they're not welcome.

As an aside, can we please kill the phrase "wheelchair bound?" It's dismissive, and inaccurate. People are wheelchair users. They're no more "wheelchair bound" than walking folk are shoe bound. Wheelchairs are tools, not life imperatives. (Most wheelchair users aren't paralyzed and can and do walk in certain circumstances, especially in their own homes.)

[Mangetout]

I think this is gonna be the thread winner, here.
I should probably clarify that other washrooms exist in the building that are accessible without traversing stairs, although they're all at one end of one wing of a very large building - and even those are only nominally accessible, as they're retrofitted and still have narrow doors and sharp turns to get in them, and around to the cubicles.

[JoelUpchurch]

I often wonder what goes through the mind of architects who design parking lots. Do they think that all handicapped people are in wheelchairs and therefore do not need to be right next to the door?


I think as long as the client is satisfied and the building meets code they don't care about any of the people that use the building. Disabled or not.

[Hilarity N. Suze]

I was planning for a meeting in a certain hotel, and I knew there were some handicapped people who would be attending. The hotel said they were very very compliant with ADA, which actually doesn't mean that much. I had a friend who came and checked it out via her wheelchair. She has a couple of issues that she runs into a lot. One is the ramp that's too steep, and then spills you out into perilous traffic (she calls it "Roller Coaster Ramp"). So this hotel had a couple of those, but also had an adequate entrance.

However, in our conference space there was a so-called handicap-accessible restroom that had its own little set of three stairs to go up. Ding. She had to go up two floors to find an actual handicap-accessible restroom, and then she could get into the stall in her chair but couldn't shut the door. Ding. She also didn't trust the support, which she relies on the get out of the chair. Ding.

There were other hotels with more favorable rates, and this wasn't necessarily the deciding factor, but it really played a big part in moving us to another hotel. (I went to another conference there a few months later and noticed that, on the restroom with its own stairway, the hotel had "complied" by taking the handicap-accessible sign down. I have no clue what possessed them to put it on there in the first place.)

And parking lots. I think they must be designed by one set of people, and then a complete other set paints the lines, with no communication whatsoever. But in an office I used to work in the actual handicapped people (1) avoided the actual handicapped spots, because the curb cut in the parking lot led directly into nice, thick, well-tended grass.

My local Y. It has a great many handicapped parking spots right in front, where the handicapped entrance is not--it's on the other side of the building. You can't go anywhere in this Y without going up or down a couple of steps at least. For instance from the women's locker room, to get to the pool you go through the shower, then down a half flight of steps, then down a corridor, then open a door and go down one step, then there is a really cold little area (if you're wet) that you walk through, then you go up three steps and into the entrance to the pool. There is an elevator, yes. But to get to the elevator you'd need to come out of the shower, get through the dressing area, go out into the lobby--well, almost into the lobby. And I'm not quite sure how they handle those last three steps, which are right after you get out of the elevator.

However, there is a hoist thing on one side of the pool so that people who aren't that mobile can get into and out of the pool (I have never seen anyone use it). Likewise there are steps from the lobby down into the basketball court, and again, I don't think the elevator goes there. Unlike the pool, I have seen people in wheelchairs in the gym area. I just don't know how they got there.

[Hilarity N. Suze]

When my parents opened their visitor centre, we actually spend a day pushing each other round in a spare wheelchair, checking how good the access was, and how readable signs were and things like that. It really should be standard practice in designing places, it's amazing how much difference there is between what you think is fine and what's actually fine.

My friend who did the hotel for us actually got work as a consultant for places that have to be compliant (like hospitals; actually I don't know if she did anything but hospitals). She said nobody had ever gotten 100% on her surveys. The ramps are usually a problem, which is particularly stupid in hospitals because every single patient has to leave the hospital in a wheelchair pushed by hospital personnel. In one case the ramp was separated from the handicapped parking by a railing, and it was a long way back--not a problem for the patients who, at the end of the ramp, got out of the personnel-pushed chair and went to their car. But really annoying for anyone who had to stay in the chair. But the place still got a good enough rating to pass and be HCFA-certified.

[Broomstick]

I think a lot of places just assume anyone in a wheelchair is so frail they are always pushed around by someone else. Big, brawny someone elses. So long routes don't matter, steep ramps don't matter....

I saw we should sick Jamie McGarry on them.

[flodnak]

I work in a high school in a three story-building. There is an elevator. To prevent students from abusing the elevator, it can only be called with a key. The key that does this is the master key that unlocks virtually every other door in the building. This key is of course far too valuable to give to those students who actually need to use the elevator. So they have to stand in front of the elevator and wait for a teacher to come along and help them. :smack:

[thelabdude]

It is a fight. I am remembering our church installing a family friendly/assessable restroom. We used an old cloak room that was open on one side. The door could have gone anywhere. It ended up next to the wall where the sink was meaning a very tight turn getting in and out. We made the builder move it over some. It was better, but not as good as it could have been. Also the light switch was left in the corner. I suggested to the minister that I move it. He said no. I should have told him I was moving it unless session voted to forbid it.

[anyrose]

I just want to thank all of you. It's comforting to know I am not alone.

[Lynn Bodoni]

Ah, Christian love in action! Yeah, this is what we hear from businesses all the time, too. "We don't have any customers who use wheelchairs, so we don't need to install a ramp/widen the aisles/to kill the clutter." Yeah, and so long as you don't have a ramp or navigable aisles, you'll never have customers (or church members, etc.) who use wheelchairs because you've made it blatantly clear that they're not welcome. Yep. There are some places that I just won't go to, because those places are a pain to navigate for whatever reason. So I go to another place, one that's more welcoming.

[drewtwo99]

Back in college at Oregon State University, we had a wheelchair ramp that lead to the basement of Strand Agricultural Hall in the back. I could barely walk up it without holding onto the rails, it was so steep. It literally was the same length as the stairway that it was next too, it didn't loop around, or start/end earlier at all. So dangerous, and so poorly designed. There WAS an elevator that went to the basement though, so I guess that's how they got away with it.

[johnpost]

Back in college at Oregon State University, we had a wheelchair ramp that lead to the basement of Strand Agricultural Hall in the back. I could barely walk up it without holding onto the rails, it was so steep. It literally was the same length as the stairway that it was next too, it didn't loop around, or start/end earlier at all. So dangerous, and so poorly designed. There WAS an elevator that went to the basement though, so I guess that's how they got away with it.

are you sure it was a wheelchair ramp and not a hand truck ramp?

[drewtwo99]

are you sure it was a wheelchair ramp and not a hand truck ramp?

If you could manage to roll anything up or down that ramp with a handtruck, you'd deserve some sort of medal. The thing had to be at a 50 or 60 degree angle.

AFAIK, the ramp was completely useless, other than for making me and my friends laugh and constantly wonder what the point of it was.

[Algher]

Having had to retrofit a building to be ADA compliant, it is a pain to find out what needs to be done to be compliant - without going bankrupt. It is not just wheelchairs - it is crutches, blind, deaf, etc. The locality has some rules, the state has others and the Feds have their own. You can hire 3 consultants, and get different opinions from each one.

THEN you find out that your modifications create DIFFERENT violations of code in different sections. yaaarrrgggh.

Please note - this is minimal compared to what it is like to actually live with the disability. I am just saying that even the best intentions can get caught up in all of the steps necessary to be compliant.

[Silvorange]

I think a lot of places just assume anyone in a wheelchair is so frail they are always pushed around by someone else. Big, brawny someone elses. So long routes don't matter, steep ramps don't matter....


Oh, they only assume that for ramps and heavy doors. Bathroom stalls, not so much. I used to go out with a friend who needed help transferring from her chair, and lots of places don't have a handicapped stall large enough to accomodate a helper.

When I was out with my mom, we would often run into situations where she could get her chair into the stall, but couldn't close the door behind her. Then she would barely have room to transfer to the toilet, and sometimes she needed help. My job was to lean over her chair and give her a hand if necessary, then hold the stall door closed.

One more huge pet peeve: restrooms that only have one toilet, but still have that toilet in a (usually too small) stall, even though the restroom door locks. WTF?

[Ambivalid]

Do you think they're lying? I wouldn't be shocked to find out that some city ordinances were quite wacky.

Not at all; I just said it didn't make any sense to me. See, the parking lot where the handicap accessible spots were located had a two foot embankment directly in front of the spots (there are regular spots located next to the accessible ones). Now the users of the regular spots could get out of their cars and walk up a small set of steps to get past the embankment. The handicap parkers, however, had to go all the way into the middle of the parking lot and into traffic just to get to the front doors. Now why couldn't a path have been made through that embankment in order to let the handicapped patrons safely access the building? They (the designers of the parking lot/building) made sure the able-bodied had a safe path, why not everyone?

[Ambivalid]

Last year I was dating a girl, and we went to get something to eat at a Coney Island near my place (I know, Coney Island?? we were hungry). Typically I don't eat greasy, heavy crappy food but we had had a long night the night before (out of town party) and what the hell? So I ordered some kind of western omelette, complete with hash browns, bacon and pancakes.

Well I was about 10 minutes into my feast when I felt a very ominous "gurgling" somewhere in my intestines. I knew all too well what that feeling was telling me; "Get yourself to a toilet immediately". So I got the waitresses' attention and I asked her where the restroom was. "Oh it right over th...Oh but let show you where the handicap accessible restroom is." I thought this was good, if not a little surprising, an old Coney Island like this having two different restrooms, but hey, I was happy.

So she walks me over to the restroom door and I thank her and she is off. I go inside to find a very large bathroom. The floor is wide and open and I can do all sorts of wheelies and break-dancing on it (if I so choosed). However, I go to the stall door (there is only one) and find that I cannot even get my front frame through the door, much less my big wheels on the sides. I am getting to emergency status by this point.

I race back out to the waitress and tell her that the bathroom is not handicap-accessible. She looks at me incredulously as says "Sir, we have many patrons who use wheelchairs and we have never had any complaints." :confused::confused: I told her that I didn't see how that was possible since no wheelchair could fit into the toilet stall. She repeated herself, this time a little more annoyed. The only thing I could think of to explain what she was telling me was that it was primarily older people who frequented this diner and those who used wheelchairs did so not because of spinal-cord injury (or other disorders) but moreso because of simple old age and frailty. So, when faced with this obstacle of the narrow bathroom door, they simple got out of their chairs. But I don't know, it's speculation on my part but I can't think of anything else.

I went back to the table where my friend was still eating. I tried to make it through the rest of her meal and make it back to my place but I couldn't. I shit myself right there at the table where my date was eating breakfast. And it wasn't like I was caught off-guard or anything. I tried to take care of this. But because this Coney Island had "handicap accessible" toilet stalls which had no capacity of fitting a wheelchair, I was shit out of luck (pun intended).

[Living Well Is Best Revenge]

Jamie, you've talked about scooting yourself around on your ass before, so was there no way you could have gotten yourself onto the toilet? I realize the stall was not accessible by your normal means, but this was a dire situation. I think before I did what you did, I would have asked a stranger to help me if I couldn't have somehow hoisted myself up there.

[Ambivalid]

Jamie, you've talked about scooting yourself around on your ass before, so was there no way you could have gotten yourself onto the toilet? I realize the stall was not accessible by your normal means, but this was a dire situation. I think before I did what you did, I would have asked a stranger to help me if I couldn't have somehow hoisted myself up there.

The bathroom was empty and I was nowhere near the toilet. I couldn't even enter the stall. And it's difficult to describe here in print but such volatile movements like getting myself down from my chair to the floor and then pulling myself up to the toilet would have definitely caused me to have an accident. When I am in such a state, I have to be very careful not to make sudden, lifting movements of any kind. Even transferring from my chair to a toilet, in ideal settings, can be disasterous.

[tdn]

Forget handicap accessible for a moment. How about parents of very young children?

I spent a good deal of Saturday hanging out with a baby and his mother. It amazed me how difficult it was to move through the world. We met at a subway station, and the only way we could get out was by her carrying her son up the very narrow escalator and me dragging the pram up the stairs. I'm not sure how she could have done it on her own. Her best option would have been to go to another station and push the pram through narrow sidewalks and over wildly uneven bricks and cobblestones.

I've gotten a new appreciation for people who have to live in a mostly unaccessible world. Mad props to those of you who can manage it!

[Nava]

And it's difficult to describe here in print but such volatile movements like getting myself down from my chair to the floor and then pulling myself up to the toilet would have definitely caused me to have an accident. When I am in such a state, I have to be very careful not to make sudden, lifting movements of any kind.

My mother has been known to need changing just from standing up. She doesn't have any more mobility difficulties than those related to being 70 and having had "bad bones" her whole life, but tracking "where the nearest bathroom is" while out and about with her has become ingrained in the whole family. There was an incident recently when she was out with the 5yo, said "oh shit! :eek:" and the kid figured out instantly what the problem was and pointed her to the nearest bathroom, "hurry hurry hurry maybe we can get to that bar on time!"

There was at least one incident when she entered a bar, the bathroom was locked, she asked for the key and was told "customers only". "Miss, I'm about shitting myself. I can do it in your bathroom or I can do it out here - your choice." The waitress figured out it was best to hand the key over, yeah.

Combining that kind of required reaction times with a chair has to suck balls and then some :(

[JoelUpchurch]

Forget handicap accessible for a moment. How about parents of very young children?

I spent a good deal of Saturday hanging out with a baby and his mother. It amazed me how difficult it was to move through the world. We met at a subway station, and the only way we could get out was by her carrying her son up the very narrow escalator and me dragging the pram up the stairs. I'm not sure how she could have done it on her own. Her best option would have been to go to another station and push the pram through narrow sidewalks and over wildly uneven bricks and cobblestones.


Where are you that the subways have escalators but no elevators?

[tdn]

Where are you that the subways have escalators but no elevators?

This particular one was the Green Line in Boston, at Government Center. Looking at the web site, it looks like about half of the stops lack accessibility features. This one has a wide escalator going down, but a narrow on going up. It was too narrow for a stroller.

[Springtime for Spacers]

This particular one was the Green Line in Boston, at Government Center. Looking at the web site, it looks like about half of the stops lack accessibility features. This one has a wide escalator going down, but a narrow on going up. It was too narrow for a stroller.

I was expecting you to say London. It is getting better but I had a horrible time a few years ago finding a route I could use whilst using one crutch and a big suitcase on wheels.

[tdn]

I was expecting you to say London.

They do say that Boston is the most European American city!

Really, so much of that construction is ancient, and most likely difficult to modernize. I'd hate to have to negotiate this city in a chair. I wonder how other cities rate.

Do NYC subway stops all have elevators?

ETA: Did you think I was talking about London because I said pram? I can't think of a better American word for it.

[appleciders]

This particular one was the Green Line in Boston, at Government Center. Looking at the web site, it looks like about half of the stops lack accessibility features. This one has a wide escalator going down, but a narrow on going up. It was too narrow for a stroller.

That doesn't surprise me. Boston's mass transit is pretty darn good for the able-bodied; it's reliable, fast, and pretty darn cheap. But I can't imagine navigating it in a wheelchair.

[JoelUpchurch]

Do NYC subway stops all have elevators?


I think most, but not all. You also need to check which elevators are out of service.

http://www.mta.info/accessibility/stations.htm

If you are on crutches you probably check the escalator status. That is a lot of stairs to go down on crutches.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/29/nyregion/subway-elevator-operators-dwindle-in-new-york.html

[tdn]

That's cool that they have that.

[Springtime for Spacers]

They do say that Boston is the most European American city!

Really, so much of that construction is ancient, and most likely difficult to modernize. I'd hate to have to negotiate this city in a chair. I wonder how other cities rate.

Do NYC subway stops all have elevators?

ETA: Did you think I was talking about London because I said pram? I can't think of a better American word for it.

Uh, no, just because you were replying to the person who said where on earth are there subways with no lifts (elevators) and London certainly fits the bill.

[kvetch]

This is my first post. My husband is "It's Not Rocket Surgery!" pointed this thread out. I was diagnosed with MS in '99 and Fibromyalgia in '05. As someone who is disabled, I so can relate to this thread and many of the responses. A current "Doh!" was our new county Library. While having many handicap parking spots they were placed on the side of the building. Where do you think the ramp was? In front. Not only in front, but with a round cement ball directly in front of the ramp. This caused my scooter to barely swerve around it. :smack: Not only that, but it is 200 feet to the doors with no overhead coverage if it were bad weather. So $17 million for a library that really didn't do their homework.:rolleyes:

[tumbleddown]

Forget handicap accessible for a moment. How about parents of very young children?
You know, this irks. A lot.

Parents put their children on wheels by choice. There are other options for transporting kids, especially when they're very small. Prams and strollers are not analogous or comparable to mobility devices used by people with disabilities. Accessibility is not about prams. Don't try to make it about prams.

[Nava]

Do NYC subway stops all have elevators?

Madrid and Barcelona definitely don't, although they're doing their best to modernize the old ones and newer ones always have either elevators or moving ramps.

I think all of Bilbao's and Seville's are officially acesible, being recently built - their trams definitely are, as are the new tram lines in Barcelona.

[MsRobyn]

You know, this irks. A lot.

Parents put their children on wheels by choice. There are other options for transporting kids, especially when they're very small. Prams and strollers are not analogous or comparable to mobility devices used by people with disabilities. Accessibility is not about prams. Don't try to make it about prams.

Obviously you've never had to negotiate a stroller or pram in a public place. They rely on the same accommodations that the disabled use. Asking about elevator availability or bitching about narrow doors or tight corners is perfectly acceptable whether you use a stroller or a wheelchair. Besides, I challenge you to carry around a 20+-lb baby all day. They get heavy.

FTR, my mother is now in a wheelchair full-time, so I'm used to dealing with both. They are analogous.

[Eliahna]

You know, this irks. A lot.

Parents put their children on wheels by choice. There are other options for transporting kids, especially when they're very small. Prams and strollers are not analogous or comparable to mobility devices used by people with disabilities. Accessibility is not about prams. Don't try to make it about prams.

Disabled-accessible is pram-accessible. Trying to get around with a pram gives the able-bodied a rare chance to understand some of what the disabled go through, and to really notice where no provision has been made for them. It's nothing like the same experience, but it's an experience that gives some insight.

[tdn]

Disabled-accessible is pram-accessible. Trying to get around with a pram gives the able-bodied a rare chance to understand some of what the disabled go through, and to really notice where no provision has been made for them. It's nothing like the same experience, but it's an experience that gives some insight.

Exactly. I was not trying to irk anyone, just share that I had an insight that I would not normally have had.

[Monty]

I'm curious if the Coney Island commode jamiemcgarry encountered was not, in fact, in compliance with the ADA Accessibility Guidelines for commodes (http://trace.wisc.edu/docs/adaag_only/adaag.htm#4.17). Now, unless someone's in the habit of carrying around a measuring tape (or, if you're into high-tech, one of those laser measuring devices), it's a matter of opinion, isn't it?

[Silvorange]

I'm curious if the Coney Island commode jamiemcgarry encountered was not, in fact, in compliance with the ADA Accessibility Guidelines for commodes (http://trace.wisc.edu/docs/adaag_only/adaag.htm#4.17). Now, unless someone's in the habit of carrying around a measuring tape (or, if you're into high-tech, one of those laser measuring devices), it's a matter of opinion, isn't it?

He said he couldn't fit the frame of his wheelchair through the door to the stall. If the door were the 32" minimum width, even a bariatric wheelchair would have fit.

When you deal with this issue all the time, you don't need a tape measure most of the time. You know how much clearance you should have, etc.

[Ambivalid]

He said he couldn't fit the frame of his wheelchair through the door to the stall. If the door were the 32" minimum width, even a bariatric wheelchair would have fit.

When you deal with this issue all the time, you don't need a tape measure most of the time. You know how much clearance you should have, etc.

Yeah, this isn't even a question.

[missred]

Over the years, I've accompanied several friends and family members who were disabled in public places. I even spent the better part of 1.5 years on crutches after an auto accident, back before ADA regs. Some places are easier to navigate than others, as other posters have pointed out, but some places you'd think would be built with accessability in mind, but aren't, totally blow me away.

Currently, I'm using a cane and knee brace. I was at my doctor's office yesterday, in a building built ~20 years ago. I was having routine blood and lab work done (usually, I go the hospital for the lab work, so I was unaware of what my doctor's restrooms were like) and got handed the usual cup to pee in (and that's a whole bunch of fun for a woman who needs a cane to stand or walk :rolleyes: ). I never realized it, but the restrooms in my physician's office, a place that sees a lot of elderly, disabled and other folks with mobility issues are so tiny and cramped that even if my knee wasn't messed up, it would have been a tight squeeze. I can only imagine using it with a walker and forget about a wheelchair.

Once I got in, there were no grab bars and the TP holder was in an awkward place. There was absolutely no room for an assistant for those who might need one.

I registered a complaint to my PA and later, the office manager. I've been considering changing PCPs and this may well have tipped the scale. Kudos to those who fight this battle every day.

[tumbleddown]

Obviously you've never had to negotiate a stroller or pram in a public place.
Yes, I have. I used to be a nanny. I've dealt with double strollers.
They rely on the same accommodations that the disabled use.
First of all, no, they rely on the same accommodations that wheelchair users use. Disabled and wheelchair user aren't synonyms and we need, as a society, to stop acting as if they are. We're screwed because no one seems to understand the very obvious but apparently completely esoteric difference.

It still comes down to the difference between a decided choice versus the only means many people have of movement at all. And it is diluting to the purpose of widening accessibility when we take the focus off of the people who need it to start talking about the people who merely want it, and will only use it for a brief period of time.

Accessibility isn't about you, don't try to make it about you. Don't co-opt someone else's needs for your wishlist.

[anya marie]

I've noticed a parking lot with nice, close disabled parking and then the curb cut is several feet away and i wonder if this is a big problem for some people.

There's a Red Lobster nearby with a parking lot setup like this which i noticed when my grandpa wanted to go there for dinner, It still strikes me as a crappy design at least.

There are also teeny supposedly handicap accessible bathrooms that are awkward for anyone who needs a helper - took my father to one and ran over my foot.

[MsRobyn]

Yes, I have. I used to be a nanny. I've dealt with double strollers.

First of all, no, they rely on the same accommodations that wheelchair users use. Disabled and wheelchair user aren't synonyms and we need, as a society, to stop acting as if they are. We're screwed because no one seems to understand the very obvious but apparently completely esoteric difference.

It still comes down to the difference between a decided choice versus the only means many people have of movement at all. And it is diluting to the purpose of widening accessibility when we take the focus off of the people who need it to start talking about the people who merely want it, and will only use it for a brief period of time.

Accessibility isn't about you, don't try to make it about you. Don't co-opt someone else's needs for your wishlist.

Easy there, Sparky. I don't recall trying to make this just about me, or just about people who use strollers. But I will say that for men and women who develop back and neck problems due to carrying a heavy pre-mobile child, strollers are not a "choice", but a necessity.

Other than that, I don't know what the hell your problem is, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Nava]

While having many handicap parking spots they were placed on the side of the building. Where do you think the ramp was? In front. Not only in front, but with a round cement ball directly in front of the ramp.

Reminds me of that stopover weekend in DC, in 2003-I-think.

Those triangular-profile concrete barriers placed in front of every single door in the airport. Yeah, guys, having every single entrance to an airport blocked makes perfect fucking sense! All those people with children strollers, scooter chairs, crutches and big fucking suitcases (to mention only the ones I saw - or my own BFS from spending 9 weeks bouncing from hotel to hotel in a business trip) should have bought teleporter ticket instead :rolleyes:

When I asked about it, I was told it was to avoid what's called in Spanish criminal parlance as alunizajes: ramming a car through a large glass. You know, a large glass like those huge windows in between the doors? The ones which are a lot more rammable than the blocked rotating doors? :smack: :smack: :smack:

[Mama Zappa]

OK, the thread isn't quite a zombie, but certainly heading that way.... nonetheless, I had to report something I encountered today at the orthopedist's office.

Yanno, a place where people in walkers, crutches, wheelchairs aren't an uncommon sight.

It's in a large medical office building. The door to their office suite opens outward.

And has a self-closing mechanism. With no "slow it down, you idiot" feature.

Yeah, you have to navigate the doorway AND hold it open, all with handling crutches or whatever, and attempting NOT to fall.

My theory is it's their attempt to drum up more business.

[chizzuk]

We have a building that I occasionally work in that has an elevator. But there are offices on half-floors. So you go up in the elevator, and then you have to walk down a flight of stairs to where you actually want to go. We have a lot of small children coming to the building and I am waiting for someone to have a terrible accident on the stairs, either with a stroller, trying to go down carrying too much (baby in car carrier + small child in other arm), or a toddler who's bad at stairs trying to go down on his own and not making it. I try to always walk really close to the kids when they come through so I can grab them if they fall, but we had a 2-year-old take a tumble just last week before I could catch him. Fortunately, we were close to the bottom and he buckled in such a way that he landed on his knees and not on his face.

Someone will sue and then they'll fix it. But probably not before.

[Nava]

My theory is it's their attempt to drum up more business.

For them and the lawyer next door both?

[Eva Luna]

Do you think they're lying? I wouldn't be shocked to find out that some city ordinances were quite wacky.

Yeah, a nearby suburb lost an ADA lawsuit (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1332423.html) some years back that was filed by a couple who wanted to build an accessible driveway in front of their own house and at their own expense, but was told that city ordinance didn't allow it.

[Mama Zappa]

For them and the lawyer next door both?
Heh - the office next door is a physical therapy office.... owned by the same practice. Good guess ;).

[syncope]

My 18yo son, Jake, is physically disabled due to a rare birth defect. He can walk short distances with braces and crutches, but due to his condition this is painful and exhausting. Most of the time, he uses a wheelchair.

During the past 18 years I have become very aware of how difficult it is for disabled people to maneuver in the world. Everywhere I go, I'm acutely aware of every obstacle, whether my son is with me or not.

Not long ago, while we were driving, Jake had to pee. We passed several businesses which we could see, just by glancing at them, were clearly not accessible. We found one gas station that appeared promising. Of course, I was prepared to purchase something there in order to be allowed the use of the restroom: it's not like I was looking for a free toilet.

I ran inside and asked if they had a handicapped accessible restroom. They said yes. So I got the wheelchair out of the trunk, helped Jake transfer to it, and wheeled him to the door (via the usual convoluted and much longer route).

We headed for the restroom and found the walkway was mostly blocked by a rack of baked goods. We could not get to the handicapped restroom at all. Even a moderately obese person could not have gotten back there.

At that point, there was no option but to surrender. I bought a soda, took Jake back to the car, and helped him back in. I emptied the bottle and gave it to him to use as a urinal. He had to pee in a bottle in a gas station parking lot, in a city where a "regular" person would have no trouble finding a toilet.

This particular instance (along with many others) hurt my heart, but Jake is used to that kind of thing. It didn't disturb him much: he's used to the humiliation. That's what pains me. My child should not have to pee in a bottle because very few places can accommodate his wheelchair.

This is a minor episode in Jake's life. Compared to what he suffers daily, it's nothing, but it enrages me.

Jake is considering a career in designing handicapped-accessible spaces. He's scary-smart, and he could do that. I'm so proud of him.

[Mama Zappa]

...

This is a minor episode in Jake's life. Compared to what he suffers daily, it's nothing, but it enrages me.

Jake is considering a career in designing handicapped-accessible spaces. He's scary-smart, and he could do that. I'm so proud of him.
Poor kid, nobody should have to get used to that.

And I'd say go for it, career-wise, he could make a name for himself!!

Did you make a note of the place, and contact the corporation (e.g. if it's part of a chain) and point out the problem? If enough people complain about stuff like that, maybe they'll take notice.

I just had another reminder just now. I'm at work today, and using crutches, and had to go down the hall to the restroom. I looked at the door with a critical eye because of this thread, and thought that *maybe* it would be wide enough for a wheelchair, though the immediate right turn might be challenging, especially since you'd be doing that just after managing to get through the self-closing hall door! I'm lucky that I can take very short steps on my bad foot so can manage; someone in a wheelchair or with more serious walking issues would be bowled over by the door.

And once you're in there, the regular stalls are so cramped that everyone tends to use the disabled stall. Honestly, the building designers could have made one huge stall, and one large one, and it would have been enough capacity.

[Mama Zappa]

Oh, and syncope, if you disposed of that bottle in one of their trash cans, and "forgot" to tighten the lid enough, I would blame you :D (though I suspect you're a better person than I am and the poor fellow who emptied the trash was probably not the one responsible for the lousy layout anyway).

[Mama Zappa]

Er, that should read "wouldn't", not "would" :smack:.

[syncope]

Did you make a note of the place, and contact the corporation (e.g. if it's part of a chain) and point out the problem? If enough people complain about stuff like that, maybe they'll take notice.
It didn't even occur to me at the time to complain, although I agree I should have done so. I understand that business owners might be reluctant to spend a lot of money to make the place truly accessible (as opposed to just following the letter of the law) to accommodate a very small population of potential customers.

Having a rack of bread in the store brings in money. Eliminating that bread rack (because there's nowhere else to put it in the tiny store) just so disabled people can use the restroom probably will cost money.

There are times when I've picked a battle and insisted Jake be accommodated. For example, when he was in grade school, there was only one accessible door to get into the building. Due to security reasons, that door was kept locked. His sister would go inside, go to that door (it was a long way) and open it for him. If his sister was sick or otherwise not at school that day, Jake couldn't get in unless he could find some kid who was willing to help him.

I could have gone to the school every day, signed in at the office, opened the door, and then signed out. But this was a time when Jake wanted to be more independent, to not have Mommy at his beck and call. He just wanted to go to school like all the other kids. For a disabled child especially, independence is a BIG deal.

I felt something had to be done. The school was not agreeable to leaving the door unlocked (Jake couldn't have opened that heavy door by himself anyway) but they did end up posting someone at that door every morning for the sole purpose of letting my son into the building. Short of remodeling an old building, it was a decent compromise.

On the positive side, we always notice when someplace IS accessible. There is a relatively new park near us in the forest preserve. The whole place is 100% accessible, even the beach, and they even have a beach wheelchair. (Ever try pushing a regular wheelchair on sand? It's hellish. That beach wheelchair is an engineering marvel; I'd like to kiss whoever invented it on the lips.)

In new construction, taking the needs of the disabled into consideration doesn't cause able-bodied people problems. Retrofitting old places is much harder to do.

[syncope]

P.S. Leaving an unsecured bottle of pee for the hapless employees to encounter is a tempting idea. But the minimum-wage-earning teenagers probably weren't the ones who decided to block the restroom.

It would be better to find the guy who put the bread rack there, then break his kneecaps so he'd be in a wheelchair and thus unable to use the restroom in his own store.

It's nice to think about, but I'd never actually do such a thing.

[Ambivalid]

It didn't even occur to me at the time to complain, although I agree I should have done so. I understand that business owners might be reluctant to spend a lot of money to make the place truly accessible (as opposed to just following the letter of the law) to accommodate a very small population of potential customers.

Having a rack of bread in the store brings in money. Eliminating that bread rack (because there's nowhere else to put it in the tiny store) just so disabled people can use the restroom probably will cost money.

There are times when I've picked a battle and insisted Jake be accommodated. For example, when he was in grade school, there was only one accessible door to get into the building. Due to security reasons, that door was kept locked. His sister would go inside, go to that door (it was a long way) and open it for him. If his sister was sick or otherwise not at school that day, Jake couldn't get in unless he could find some kid who was willing to help him.

I could have gone to the school every day, signed in at the office, opened the door, and then signed out. But this was a time when Jake wanted to be more independent, to not have Mommy at his beck and call. He just wanted to go to school like all the other kids. For a disabled child especially, independence is a BIG deal.

I felt something had to be done. The school was not agreeable to leaving the door unlocked (Jake couldn't have opened that heavy door by himself anyway) but they did end up posting someone at that door every morning for the sole purpose of letting my son into the building. Short of remodeling an old building, it was a decent compromise.

On the positive side, we always notice when someplace IS accessible. There is a relatively new park near us in the forest preserve. The whole place is 100% accessible, even the beach, and they even have a beach wheelchair. (Ever try pushing a regular wheelchair on sand? It's hellish. That beach wheelchair is an engineering marvel; I'd like to kiss whoever invented it on the lips.)

In new construction, taking the needs of the disabled into consideration doesn't cause able-bodied people problems. Retrofitting old places is much harder to do.

Yes, if one was to "pick a fight" with every single establishment that didn't live up to accessibility standards, then one would have no life outside of such activity. The scene she describes in the gas station is all too familiar to me. There are examples like this all over the country, in every little nook and cranny. Knowing when to pick that fight is important. Some may not agree with your decisions when to "pick" and when to "pass", but only you (the general you) really know what is important to you.

[Number]

Just waiting for the inevitable...So would you call that a pulling-up-a-wheelchair post?