Today's Lesson: Context matters (Canadian edition)

[mhendo]

Those of you living in the Toronto area might have come across this story (http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1053247--york-prof-blindsided-by-online-broken-telephone) in your local papers, or on your local news today. It's getting quite a bit of play in the academic community, where it serves as Example #25,739 of the dumb shit that students sometimes pull.

Cameron Johnston, a social sciences professor at York University was giving the first lecture to his large freshman survey course, which is called "Self, Culture and Society." As part of his lecture, he told the students that the purpose of the course was to focus on texts, and not simply on opinions. In the process, he made some effort to push back against the fairly common idea among college freshmen that all opinions are valid and acceptable.

In order to illustrate what he meant here, he told the class that:“All Jews should be sterilized” would be an example of an unacceptable and dangerous opinion.Well, this little observation created something of a shitstorm, all brought about when one of his students left the class and contacted a Jewish advocacy group on campus complaining that Johnston's remark was anti-Semitic. The group spread the word, and a bunch of them called for Johnston to be fired.

Of course, it soon become clear to just about everyone that Johnston, far from saying that Jews should be sterilized, was using this particular sentence as an example of a problematic and dangerous opinion. He said that his selection of this particular example to illustrate his argument was probably influenced by the fact that he himself is Jewish, and is very conscious of the history of anti-Semitism.

I say "just about everyone" because the student who got the whole brouhaha started is having none of it, nosiree. Sarah Grunfeld, a senior (!!!) at York, maintains that, even if she completely missed the context of his comment, it was still wrong:Grunfeld said Tuesday she may have misunderstood the context and intent of Johnston’s remarks, but that fact is insignificant.

“The words, ‘Jews should be sterilized’ still came out of his mouth, so regardless of the context I still think that’s pretty serious.”And, to add to her idiocy, she also thought it appropriate to call Johnston's own identity into account:Grunfeld also expressed skepticism that Johnston was in fact Jewish.

Asked directly by a reporter whether she believes Johnston is lying, she was unclear.

“Whether he is or is not, no one will know,” she said. “. . . Maybe he thought because he is Jewish he can talk smack about other Jews.”There aren't enough :rolleyes: in the world for someone this fucking stupid. Good to know that she'll soon be on the job market, degree in hand. i just hope that any prospective employers put her name into a search engine before they decide to hire her.


[Mods, if this is too MPSIMSy for the Pit, feel free to move it. Really stupid people just annoy the fuck out of me, though.]


ETA: I assumed, given that it was a 500-person lecture course, and that its course number was 1140, that this was a freshman course. But Grunfeld is a senior. So either i was wrong about the course type, or she's a senior filling in some required units in her degree. She's still an ass, though.

[thirdwarning]

Lesson 1: When you're wrong and you've been publicly proven wrong, shut up immediately. Then admit it and go away. This will cause people to: 1. Think you made a mistake, not that you're stupid and 2. Forget what an idiot you did look like, briefly.

If you have to look like an idiot, the shorter the duration, the better.

[Cat Whisperer]

Oh, dear God, is that ever stupid. How this became any kind of story AT ALL is also a special kind of stupid. I hope someone kicks Grunfeld in the gunt.

[mhendo]

How this became any kind of story AT ALL is also a special kind of stupid. Well, there are always groups willing to jump on any perceived slight in order to cause a fuss. And that applies at just about all points on the political spectrum.

According to this National Post (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/09/14/kelly-mcparland-a-new-school-year-a-new-anti-semitism-accusation-at-york-u/) writer, even after the whole thing had been cleared up, some groups were still siding with Grunfeld.

Most Jewish groups were perfectly understanding. For example, the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs called the incident an "unfortunate misunderstanding" and "an appropriate reminder that great caution must be exercised before concluding a statement or action is anti-Semitic." That's a pretty accurate description of the whole thing, i think.

But apparently:Even after it became evident a misunderstanding had occurred, B’nai Brith president Frank Dimant concluded Prof. Johnston deserved a public lashing because Ms. Grunfeld “felt marginalized and targeted by the way subject matter relating to odious opinions was presented.”

It didn’t matter if she was mistaken in what she thought she’d heard, he argued. “The very fact that the student reacted this way is testament to the long-term effects of marginalization of the Jewish student body over past years, since both in the classroom and in the corridors, they have been subject to jibes and taunts. In such an atmosphere, it is easy to see how an incident of this nature could develop.”

His recipe: more sensitivity training. Now, the only source i can find for this is the NP blog linked above; i couldn't find any other articles in which Dimant had made a statement. Maybe the author got it from a local news interview, or maybe talked to Dimant directly. But if Dimant said what the author claims he said, it's pretty dumb.

[Kimstu]

What raises my eyebrows is that there's no indication in the article that the advocacy group in question has apologized to Johnston for their role in this misunderstanding:

[Grunfeld] contacted Oriyah Barzilay, the president of Hasbara at York — an Israel advocacy group on campus — who then sent a press release to media and other Jewish community groups calling for Johnston to be fired.

In fact, according to this other article (http://www.excal.on.ca/news/professor-clarifies-comment-amidst-hate-speech-accusations/), they are sticking to their guns on their original reaction:

President of Hasbara@York, Oriyah Barzilay says that Johnston’s claim that students were not paying attention doesn’t hold weight.

“Basically their stories are complete polar opposites,” says Barzilay. “But at the end of the day, the common ground to both stories is that he said it [...] and it shouldn’t have been said.”

Er, no. Quoting a reprehensible slur in order to repudiate it is not the same thing as stating a reprehensible slur, even though both would share "common ground" in the sense that both would contain the actual words of the slur.

Frantic attempts at ass-covering don't make idiots look any smarter.

[Muffin]

It's a York University student. :rolleyes:

[Spoons]

As a lawyer who practices human rights law (in addition to a few other areas), I am occasionally asked to be a guest lecturer on these topics. Among other places I've spoken are at a community college and a university. These speaking engagements at educational institutions present challenges for precisely this reason.

While I can describe actual human rights decisions and court decisions using their original facts--let's face it, these decisions are public--hypotheticals, such as the professor in the OP tried, present the same problem he encountered. My solution to this problem is to simply use "Martians" as the target group: "All Martians should be sterilized," to apply my solution to the professor's statement. So far, no Martians have complained. :)

[Llama Llogophile]

My solution to this problem is to simply use "Martians" as the target group: "All Martians should be sterilized," to apply my solution to the professor's statement. So far, no Martians have complained. :)

Wasn't there a sketch about this on the old Bob Newhart show, or something similar?

I very vaguely remember a comedian starting to tell a joke about two Italians going into a bar or something, and having an Italian in the audience object. He then switches to another group (Jews?), at which point another person pipes up in anger. It happens a couple more times no matter what group he tries. Then, frustrated, he begins the joke again by saying, "OK. Two MARTIANS.." And then he stops and looks around the room suspiciously, waiting for an interruption.

Did I dream this, or can anyone verify it and tell me what TV show it was on?

[mhendo]

Frantic attempts at ass-covering don't make idiots look any smarter.Yeah, Hasbara's attitude seem pretty fucked-up to me. Thanks for the link, too; that story didn't come up in my earlier searches.

Interestingly, by Grunfeld's own standards she should also be disciplined.

After all, in criticizing Johnston, she said:“The words, ‘Jews should be sterilized’ still came out of his mouth, so regardless of the context I still think that’s pretty serious.” But, as this very sentence demonstrates, the words "Jews should be sterilized" also came out of Grunfeld's mouth. If we fail, as she did, to apply context, then her statement should also be considered offensive.

While I can describe actual human rights decisions and court decisions using their original facts--let's face it, these decisions are public--hypotheticals, such as the professor in the OP tried, present the same problem he encountered. My solution to this problem is to simply use "Martians" as the target group: "All Martians should be sterilized," to apply my solution to the professor's statement. So far, no Martians have complained. :)I understand why you do it, but i refuse to cave in to this shit.

I teach US history to college students, and in some of my classes we read texts—both fiction and non-fiction—that use epithets of varying intensity, from "papist" to "wetback" to "nigger." We also read works that describe Africans and Chinese and Japanese as subhuman, uncivilized, backwards, and brutish. I think that talking about these things in their historical context is essential, and i refuse to say things like "the 'n' word" instead of "nigger" in class just because some people can't handle an intellectual discussion in an academic environment.

Now, i don't go out of my way to use these epithets gratuitously, and i don't say them just to make people uncomfortable. But if they are in the text, and talking about the way they are used is relevant to the discussion, then i'm not going to shy away from saying them out loud.

Also, it seems to me that your own construction, "All martians should be sterilized," is less useful precisely because it deals with a non-existent group. The professor in question used Jews as an example because bringing up actual historic prejudices against Jews can serve as a reminder that these sorts of attitudes are not hypothetical, but are very real things that have affected, and continue to affect, real people.

[DWMarch]

So if you're a potential employer and you research this student's name and it leads you to this article about how she tried to get someone fired because she misunderstood what he said... would you hire her?

Not only that, I bet she's going to get a very chilly reception from the rest of her profs. Silly bitch sleeps through class and then tries to get her professor fired when she overhears something she interprets as recreational outrage. Every professor's favorite student right there. I hope the university boots her right out for being a disruptive liar and for going to an advocacy group on a matter that could have and should have been handled internally. I hope the class is pulled from the schedule (but the professor is paid in full) and all the other students get a penalty-free withdrawal while she gets an F and the university keeps her money for crapping on their name. And I hope the professor sues her into destitution.

[Capitaine Zombie]

Oh, dear God, is that ever stupid. How this became any kind of story AT ALL is also a special kind of stupid. I hope someone kicks Grunfeld in the gunt.

Just say that you want to sterilize her, you fucking Hitler (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)!

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Oy. Sometimes college profs deserve hazard pay.

[Uzi]

Just say that you want to sterilize her, you fucking Hitler (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)!

I like that. Linking to Hitler just in case we didn't know who he was. Ha! (/Joe)*

To reiterate previous posters: Who in their right would ever hire her? She'd have to find a way to get her degree moved to another university and change her name in the process. It just proves you don't have to be smart to go to university.


*I almost type jew instead of joe:rolleyes:

[Grey]

It's a York University student. :rolleyes:ha! Had exactly the same reaction.

[Bryan Ekers]

I hope the university boots her right out for being a disruptive liar and for going to an advocacy group on a matter that could have and should have been handled internally. I hope the class is pulled from the schedule (but the professor is paid in full) and all the other students get a penalty-free withdrawal while she gets an F and the university keeps her money for crapping on their name. And I hope the professor sues her into destitution.

AND she gets sterilized!



Ooops, too far.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

So if you're a potential employer and you research this student's name and it leads you to this article about how she tried to get someone fired because she misunderstood what he said... would you hire her?

Not only that, I bet she's going to get a very chilly reception from the rest of her profs. Silly bitch sleeps through class and then tries to get her professor fired when she overhears something she interprets as recreational outrage. Every professor's favorite student right there. I hope the university boots her right out for being a disruptive liar and for going to an advocacy group on a matter that could have and should have been handled internally. I hope the class is pulled from the schedule (but the professor is paid in full) and all the other students get a penalty-free withdrawal while she gets an F and the university keeps her money for crapping on their name. And I hope the professor sues her into destitution.

And she has to be the professor's butler if she can't pay!

[Spoons]

I understand why you do it, but i refuse to cave in to this shit.

...

Now, i don't go out of my way to use these epithets gratuitously, and i don't say them just to make people uncomfortable. But if they are in the text, and talking about the way they are used is relevant to the discussion, then i'm not going to shy away from saying them out loud.Remember, though, that I also use actual cases that have been decided by Human Rights tribunals and the courts, which contain plenty of nasty epithets and other unpleasantries in their recitations of the facts. After discussing these decisions, and seeing some students' jaws drop at my descriptions of the facts in the cases, it just seems best to give the students a break by using "Martians" in a hypothetical. Besides, I don't want them so shocked and uncomfortable that they cannot concentrate on the question posed in the hypothetical, and thus, cannot subsequently discuss it.

Aside to Muffin: What is it we used to say? "A thousand bucks and a heartbeat"?

[Sailboat]

Some people WILL NOT ADMIT when they're wrong, even if they've been caught dead to rights. It's hard to tell if she still doesn't see how wrong she is, or just won't admit it, period.

Either way, there should be some penalty for her, ideally one that is harsh enough to get everyone's attention and be talked about.

[Uzi]

Either way, there should be some penalty for her, ideally one that is harsh enough to get everyone's attention and be talked about.

There is a penalty. She's an idiot and everyone knows it.

[Enderw24]

“The words, ‘Jews should be sterilized’ still came out of his mouth, so regardless of the context I still think that’s pretty serious.”

Has someone talked to this senior about her anti-semetic remarks? I would complain to the Jewish Center on campus about her.

[Euphonious Polemic]

Dear York University Jewish Advocacy Group:

I recently read an article somewhere, I don't remember where, because I wasn't paying much attention. Anyway, I didn't read the whole thing, but in there somewhere it quoted a York University Student, one Sarah Grunfeld, as saying: 'Jews should be sterilized’

Now I don't know if she was quoting someone, or what the context was (because I didn't read the whole article, and I was looking out the window at the time), but I think her comments were offensive. She said these words.

I think you should issue a press release trying to get her thrown out of the University. Of course, you don't need to look into this further - just take my word for it, since I think I saw this quote somewhere. Anyway, she's probably not even really Jewish.

Thank you.

[Capitaine Zombie]

Dear York University Jewish Advocacy Group:

'Jews should be sterilized’


Thank you.

Reported.

[mhendo]

Remember, though, that I also use actual cases that have been decided by Human Rights tribunals and the courts, which contain plenty of nasty epithets and other unpleasantries in their recitations of the facts. After discussing these decisions, and seeing some students' jaws drop at my descriptions of the facts in the cases, it just seems best to give the students a break by using "Martians" in a hypothetical. Besides, I don't want them so shocked and uncomfortable that they cannot concentrate on the question posed in the hypothetical, and thus, cannot subsequently discuss it.Fair enough. That makes sense.

[Vinyl Turnip]

She's an idiot and everyone knows it.

Yeah. I thought Jews were supposed to be crafty!

[zoid]

AND she gets sterilized!



Ooops, too far.

No, that seems about right.

[Really Not All That Bright]

While I can describe actual human rights decisions and court decisions using their original facts--let's face it, these decisions are public--hypotheticals, such as the professor in the OP tried, present the same problem he encountered. My solution to this problem is to simply use "Martians" as the target group: "All Martians should be sterilized," to apply my solution to the professor's statement. So far, no Martians have complained. :)
While that's fine so far as it avoids offending anyone, it also fails to accomplish the intended goal. I mean, the point is to distinguish between dangerous statements and offensive statements, and I doubt anyone in your classes is overly protective of Martian reproductive rights...

[Muffin]

The intended goal is to get the point across to the students, which will not be accomplished if the students get too distracted by the inflammatory words.

[Really Not All That Bright]

So go with, "racial group X" or something.

[mhendo]

The intended goal is to get the point across to the students, which will not be accomplished if the students get too distracted by the inflammatory words.I get that, i guess, but it seems to me that being part of an intellectual environment should involve learning how to think critically and logically even when the words or the ideas themselves are offensive or inflammatory.

For example, i think it's worth taking some effort to make sure students understand that, as offensive as the word might be, there are incredibly important differences between using the word "nigger" in a discussion of, say, Mark Twain's writing, and using it to actually describe a black person. Similarly, there's an important difference between offering "All Jews should be sterilized" as a personal opinion, and offering it as an example of a historical idea that has had incredibly destructive results.

If students can't or won't make these distinctions, then we might as well close down the universities, because this is precisely the sort of critical and contextual thinking that institutions of higher education should be teaching.

[mhendo]

Oh, Christ, take a look at the student's media statement about the whole event. I'm quoting the whole thing because a media release is, by definition, designed to be circulated, and because the release itself says that it is only to be used in its entirety:I stand by my initial concern brought to the University's attention immediately after the incident that when Professor Cameron Johnston made the abhorrent statement in his class that all Jews should be sterilized, he failed to qualify the statement clearly as an unacceptable opinion held by others. His delivery of this statement, made in a class of 450 impressionable students, was offensive to me and to others in the room.

I have since been grossly misquoted and ridiculed by the media, and attempts have been made to assign blame to me with the false claim that I simply "misheard" or "half heard" what was said. Meanwhile, the professor has not been called to account in any way for his "miscommunication".

This is in spite of the fact that in a meeting with Martin Singer, Dean, (Faculty of Liberal Arts & Professional Studies at York) and Rhonda Lenton (Vice Provost Academic), I was assured that they believed Professor Johnston was 'terribly regretful', and that they expected and would encourage him to issue an unambiguous in-class apology. I have not heard even minimal expressions of regret by Professor Johnston, and a York university representative in subsequent communications with the media, has since contradicted the assurances I was given to that effect.

It has been a very painful experience for me to see how the university has closed ranks and reneged on its assurances to me. I understand that there may have been a miscommunication, but any miscommunication was on the part of the professor, not me. The media has been complicit in allowing a false interpretation of my actions to be circulated widely, which can only have a chilling effect on the ability of students to have any kind of a voice on campus.

END OF STUDENT STATEMENTFrom here (http://gawker.com/5840591/dumb-student-who-accused-jewish-prof-of-anti+semitism-i-am-the-victim-here).

[Hentor the Barbarian]

I sure hope this ignorant moron never visits the Holocaust museum in DC. Their displays of anti Semitic propaganda will make her head explode!

I'm seriously caught up in this story, especially reading the follow up statements that she and some Jewish organizations have put out. I have this terrible need to find out that this girl has suffered some real consequences for her actions, especially after doubling and tripling down as she has.

I guess I really abhor aggressive stupidity, the kind of stupid that not only starts out stupid, but attacks the non-stupid, is incapable of monitoring or checking the stupid when red flags should be going up, and which runs the very real risk of causing havoc and doing harm.

[alice_in_wonderland]

It's a York University student. :rolleyes:

How does that rhyme go? "If you can use a fork you can get into York."

Not particularly clever and yet somehow apropos.

[Una Persson]

So if you're a potential employer and you research this student's name and it leads you to this article about how she tried to get someone fired because she misunderstood what he said... would you hire her?
Oh, HELL no. I could see her firing off a civil suit the first time someone refers to a boiler as "she," because it would marginalize all women, everywhere, throughout history.

And yes I do research every person I interview to see what they say. It's stunning what they'll put in their blogs or facebook accounts - thinking no one will ever find out that they "hate niggers" or "OMFG i say a ghey get kicked it was rotflll!" or "girl, you KNOWZ I likes to do some BLOW at lunch!" :rolleyes: I found one person who posted in their facebook account the day before they interviewed that they thought a) my company sucked but they might "settle" for a job here, and b) they hoped no one checked their personal references because one of them was fake. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[alice_in_wonderland]

I found one person who posted in their facebook account the day before they interviewed that they thought a) my company sucked but they might "settle" for a job here, and b) they hoped no one checked their personal references because one of them was fake. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

PLEEEEEASE tell me you brought this up in the interview and what their response was.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Okay, I took some solace in reading Twitter comments on the matter. Some are suggesting that Grunfeld should be turned into a verb, meaning something like “to dramatically over-react to one’s own stupid misunderstanding.”

For instance, Emily Littella was a character on SNL who, when confronted with the fact that she had once again grunfelded, would simply say, “Never mind.”

[drewtwo99]

Oh, HELL no. I could see her firing off a civil suit the first time someone refers to a boiler as "she," because it would marginalize all women, everywhere, throughout history.

And yes I do research every person I interview to see what they say. It's stunning what they'll put in their blogs or facebook accounts - thinking no one will ever find out that they "hate niggers" or "OMFG i say a ghey get kicked it was rotflll!" or "girl, you KNOWZ I likes to do some BLOW at lunch!" :rolleyes: I found one person who posted in their facebook account the day before they interviewed that they thought a) my company sucked but they might "settle" for a job here, and b) they hoped no one checked their personal references because one of them was fake. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sometimes what people say or do on the internet is not really indicative of how they act in real life, or on the job. Of course, if someone is openly bashing your company before interviewing, that's another thing alltogether, heheh.

[Capitaine Zombie]

Oh, Christ, take a look at the student's media statement about the whole event. I'm quoting the whole thing because a media release is, by definition, designed to be circulated, and because the release itself says that it is only to be used in its entirety:From here (http://gawker.com/5840591/dumb-student-who-accused-jewish-prof-of-anti+semitism-i-am-the-victim-here).

She seems to enjoy being a git. So, she's saying she's been improperly ridiculed by the media only because she thought University officials had told her the professor had erred. So, she adds no argument to the cluelessness of her reporting but hides behind "Authorities" that showed how cowardly they can be, a first time for her benefit, and a second time, against her.

Some people should be sterilized. Her folks, presumably.

[Muffin]

I get that, i guess, but it seems to me that being part of an intellectual environment should involve learning how to think critically and logically even when the words or the ideas themselves are offensive or inflammatory.

For example, i think it's worth taking some effort to make sure students understand that, as offensive as the word might be, there are incredibly important differences between using the word "nigger" in a discussion of, say, Mark Twain's writing, and using it to actually describe a black person. Similarly, there's an important difference between offering "All Jews should be sterilized" as a personal opinion, and offering it as an example of a historical idea that has had incredibly destructive results.

If students can't or won't make these distinctions, then we might as well close down the universities, because this is precisely the sort of critical and contextual thinking that institutions of higher education should be teaching.Baby steps. Kids fresh out of high school need to be weened into critical thinking.

That the woman who made the complaint was a senior undergraduate speaks volumes about the critical thinking skills that she did not develop during university.

[Dingbang]

This idiocy reminds me of the 2008 case in which an employee of Indiana University was accused of racial harassment because he was reading a book about how Notre Dame students successfully overcame the local KKK in 1924.

Summary of the case here: http://thefire.org/index.php/article/9017.html

The 50ish campus janitor was an avid reader who read books on his break time. One day he was reading the critically acclaimed Notre Dame vs. the Klan: How the Fighting Irish Defeated the Ku Klux Klan. A shop steward told Sampson that reading a book about the KKK was like bringing pornography to work and then another co-worker remarked that she found the KKK offensive. Sampson, the janitor, tried to explain what the book was really about but they refused to listen.

A racial harassment charge was filed and the university reprimanded Sampson, saying "You demonstrated disdain and insensitivity to your coworkers who repeatedly requested that you refrain from reading the book which has such an inflammatory and offensive topic in their presence...you used extremely poor judgment by insisting on openly reading the book related to a historically and racially abhorrent subject in the presence of your Black coworkers."

[Hentor the Barbarian]

She seems to enjoy being a git. So, she's saying she's been improperly ridiculed by the media only because she thought University officials had told her the professor had erred. So, she adds no argument to the cluelessness of her reporting but hides behind "Authorities" that showed how cowardly they can be, a first time for her benefit, and a second time, against her.

Some people should be sterilized. Her folks, presumably.what makes you for a moment think that it's safe to trust this girl's characterization of her conversation with third parties?

[Cat Whisperer]

Just say that you want to sterilize her, you fucking Hitler (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)!Assuming she hasn't bred yet, that would be a super idea! :)

Dear York University Jewish Advocacy Group:

I recently read an article somewhere, I don't remember where, because I wasn't paying much attention. Anyway, I didn't read the whole thing, but in there somewhere it quoted a York University Student, one Sarah Grunfeld, as saying: 'Jews should be sterilized’

Now I don't know if she was quoting someone, or what the context was (because I didn't read the whole article, and I was looking out the window at the time), but I think her comments were offensive. She said these words.

I think you should issue a press release trying to get her thrown out of the University. Of course, you don't need to look into this further - just take my word for it, since I think I saw this quote somewhere. Anyway, she's probably not even really Jewish.

Thank you.Perfect.

Okay, I took some solace in reading Twitter comments on the matter. Some are suggesting that Grunfeld should be turned into a verb, meaning something like “to dramatically over-react to one’s own stupid misunderstanding.”

For instance, Emily Littella was a character on SNL who, when confronted with the fact that she had once again grunfelded, would simply say, “Never mind.”I try not to grunfeld myself here on the Dope - I ask for clarification before I get totally worked up about stuff.

[mhendo]

This idiocy reminds me of the 2008 case in which an employee of Indiana University was accused of racial harassment because he was reading a book about how Notre Dame students successfully overcame the local KKK in 1924.

Summary of the case here: http://thefire.org/index.php/article/9017.html

<snip>

A racial harassment charge was filed and the university reprimanded Sampson.Yeah, that was pretty awful, although it's worth noting that the reprimand was removed and Sampson was cleared of all charges (http://thefire.org/article/9255.html). Still, it never should have gone that far in the first place, and it shouldn't have taken the intervention of nationally-recognized organizations (ACLU, FIRE, etc.) to get the university to change its tune.

[Capitaine Zombie]

what makes you for a moment think that it's safe to trust this girl's characterization of her conversation with third parties?

Lack of fortitude in an administrative body seems to fit reality more than anything she has ever said. But, you're right, a person that clearly has a problem getting the point (or, more precisely, tends to understand exactly the contrary of what has been said) and stays adamant to her own unfounded indignation would probably also misinterpret anything the University officials may tell her.

(One thing that cracks me up is when she questions the professor's own Jewishness and then adds, even though; it's not because he's Jewish that he has the right to say those things against Jewish people. She sounds like a Conservative parody of a minority activist. Hapless and looking for a good indignation buzz).

[Hentor the Barbarian]

(One thing that cracks me up is when she questions the professor's own Jewishness and then adds, even though; it's not because he's Jewish that he has the right to say those things against Jewish people. She sounds like a Conservative parody of a minority activist. Hapless and looking for a good indignation buzz).I love that she frames the issue as to whether he's actually Jewish or not as one of those mysteries that will remain unsolved: "Whether he is or is not, no one will know..."

That's what makes her sound like a not-so-much-parody of a conservative to me; she's a birther, only on a small scale.

[Whack-a-Mole]

Lesson 1: When you're wrong and you've been publicly proven wrong, shut up immediately. Then admit it and go away. This will cause people to: 1. Think you made a mistake, not that you're stupid and 2. Forget what an idiot you did look like, briefly.

If you have to look like an idiot, the shorter the duration, the better.

“It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.” (Not sure who said that...seems to be some question of its origin but wise words nonetheless.)

[Capitaine Zombie]

I love that she frames the issue as to whether he's actually Jewish or not as one of those mysteries that will remain unsolved: "Whether he is or is not, no one will know..."

That's what makes her sound like a not-so-much-parody of a conservative to me; she's a birther, only on a small scale.

When I said Conservative parody, I meant how a Conservative might caricature a minority activist, always looking for an excuse to act outraged for no valid reason.

[Gedd]

If I ever need an example like "social group X" for a negative opinion I'll just use white people. That way only neo-nazi will get pissed.

[Malthus]

As a lawyer who practices human rights law (in addition to a few other areas), I am occasionally asked to be a guest lecturer on these topics. Among other places I've spoken are at a community college and a university. These speaking engagements at educational institutions present challenges for precisely this reason.

While I can describe actual human rights decisions and court decisions using their original facts--let's face it, these decisions are public--hypotheticals, such as the professor in the OP tried, present the same problem he encountered. My solution to this problem is to simply use "Martians" as the target group: "All Martians should be sterilized," to apply my solution to the professor's statement. So far, no Martians have complained. :)

Heh, as a young student, I worked on a case which turned in part on the fact that Martians have no standing to sue in Ontario courts. :D

[For the curious, Joly v. Pelletier, [1999] O.J. No. 1728 (Ont. S.C.)]

In my opinion there are at lease two reasons why the two Statements of Claim in question ought to be struck and the actions dismissed.

1. Neither pleading discloses a cause of action. While conspiracy to do harm to someone is the basis of many actions in this Court there is a fundamental flaw in the position of Mr. Joly. Rule 1.03 defines plaintiff as "a person who commences an action". The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary defines person as "an individual human being". Section 29 of the Interpretation Act provides that a person includes a corporation. It follows that if the plaintiff is not a person in that he is neither a human being nor a corporation, he cannot be a plaintiff as contemplated by the Rules of Civil Procedure. The entire basis of Mr. Joly's actions is that he is a martian, not a human being. There is certainly no suggestion that he is a corporation. I conclude therefore, that Mr. Joly, on his pleading as drafted, has no status before the Court.

[Typo Negative]

Several years ago I was taking a Law class at a CC.

One day, I fell asleep during the professors lecture. I was in the front row.

I woke up to the sound of him saying very foul things including expletives and pointing at me. Seemed really mad.

Turned out he was illustrating the Fighting Words Doctrine and pointing in my general direction.

I shoulda sued him, saying such vile things to me.

[vivalostwages]

One of my colleagues once told a student that her essay was filled with barbarisms. She ran to the dean and complained that her professor had called her a barbarian.

[aruvqan]

I have to wonder at how fast we are turning Idiocracy into a documentary.

Granted, back in the day when I was in a 100 level poli sci class [1981] we had a black guy that was a militant panther type and tried to turn every discussion into how the white man oppressed the black man ... no matter what country or political system we were discussing. [My poli sci prof, who was the head of the department was also oddly enough my faculty adviser, he and I used to make bets before class on how long it would take before the guy started up his rants. I shudder at what he must be like online now!:eek:]

I can not believe she made it all that way up the educational ladder without being exposed to a class that included something on the Holocaust. I know for a fact that in the US there were 3 movies about the holocaust and concentration camps that were required watching in something like 9th grade, I would be amazed if it was not taught at some point in Canada as well. You can not have a class on Nazi and holocaust without mentioning all sorts of phrases like sterilization of Jews, gassing of Jews, working Jews to death and so forth.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I can not believe she made it all that way up the educational ladder without being exposed to a class that included something on the Holocaust. I know for a fact that in the US there were 3 movies about the holocaust and concentration camps that were required watching in something like 9th grade, I would be amazed if it was not taught at some point in Canada as well.
What 3 Holocaust flicks are "required watching" in the US around the 9th grade? :dubious:

[Polycarp]

As a lawyer who practices human rights law (in addition to a few other areas), I am occasionally asked to be a guest lecturer on these topics. Among other places I've spoken are at a community college and a university. These speaking engagements at educational institutions present challenges for precisely this reason.

While I can describe actual human rights decisions and court decisions using their original facts--let's face it, these decisions are public--hypotheticals, such as the professor in the OP tried, present the same problem he encountered. My solution to this problem is to simply use "Martians" as the target group: "All Martians should be sterilized," to apply my solution to the professor's statement. So far, no Martians have complained. :)

One of Skald's continua craft, apparently malfunctiong (There's a surprise!), left the missive quoted below for you, Spoons:

Pocono Heights, PA

SPOONS, Esq.
[[Address Redacted]]

Sir:

My client, Mr. V.M. Smith, has instructed me to notify you that your remarks have given him great personal offense. He asks me to suggest to you that voluntary discorporation would sufficiently restore your honor. Otherwise, he feels we will be forced to act as we see best.

I remain, sir,
Yr. obedient svt.
J. Harshaw, M.D., LL.B.

[lavenderviolet]

I'm seriously caught up in this story, especially reading the follow up statements that she and some Jewish organizations have put out. I have this terrible need to find out that this girl has suffered some real consequences for her actions, especially after doubling and tripling down as she has.

I guess I really abhor aggressive stupidity, the kind of stupid that not only starts out stupid, but attacks the non-stupid, is incapable of monitoring or checking the stupid when red flags should be going up, and which runs the very real risk of causing havoc and doing harm.

That's how I feel too. If someone started a petition calling for her to be expelled from the university or if the professor decides to sue her for damaging his reputation, I'd be 100% behind it.
It wouldn't be so bad if she had just backed down after the apology. Aggressive stupidity is a good way to describe this refusal to admit she made a mistake.

[SnakesCatLady]

Sometime I think about going back to school - not for a degree; I have enough of those. Just for classes and interesting discussion. It's been 23 years since I got my J.D.

Then I read something like this ... I'll just stay home and read the Dope.

[aruvqan]

What 3 Holocaust flicks are "required watching" in the US around the 9th grade? :dubious:
Hm, can't remember the titles, but one was literally the footage taken and shown during the Nuremburg trials where the army walked through [I think] Bergen-Belsen filming the barracks, piles of bodies, and the remnants of the prison population in striped pyjamas. Anther one was similar, but with added footage of the trials themselves, identifying the men on trial and also showed footage of surviving medical experimentation victims, and the third was footage of warehouses piled with stuff like clothing, luggage, shoes, piles of hair, teeth and so forth with narration.

I had already seen pictures of whichever camp my dad was in on the liberation of so it wasn't actually as startling to me. And I knew one Polish Jew and the remnants of his family, my Dad sponsored them to come over to the US and went to work for my family in one of our mills as he had no way to get back to Poland at that point. I was well aware of the holocaust as a child.

[aruvqan]

Sometime I think about going back to school - not for a degree; I have enough of those. Just for classes and interesting discussion. It's been 23 years since I got my J.D.

Then I read something like this ... I'll just stay home and read the Dope.
Hm, I always liked listening to other input in class, I think you might reconsider. Maybe it might help expose people to some intelligent conversation instead of them depending on America's Hottest Bullshit Artist on the TV.

[Honestly, I used to dread going into the upstairs break room at my last job. Stupid women couldn't seem to discuss anything other than those bogus talent programs. I swear, every time I had to go up there my IQ would drop and I lost brain cells.]

[mhendo]

Update:

The student in question has made a video (http://gawker.com/5882737/student-who-accused-jewish-professor-of-anti+semitism-still-working-to-expose-the-conspiracy-against-her) giving her side of the story. The whole thing is apparently a big anti-Jewish conspiracy, with at least two Jewish groups in on the cover-up.

[RickJay]

I think it pretty obvious Ms. Grunfeld has problems that go way beyond some comment made in class.

The funny thing about the video is not how stupid it is, but that she's put forth so much effort into defending a position that nobody in the entire world even cares about. "The Truth Behind The Sarah Grunfeld Story" implies, just by its title, that there is anyone, anywhere, outside of her family, who knows who Sarah Grunfeld is or cares about her story beyiond it being an amusing anecdote. Just making a video like that, giving it a TITLE like that, suggests a woman who has a sense of paranoia that goes way beyond normal and well into full blown mental illness.

At 3:50: "What ever happened to a fair investigation"?

The problem is that this isn't a fucking murder. You aren't entitled to a full blown CSI-style investigation; you're entitled to the Dean looking into it, finding out the professor didn't literally mean it, and telling you the case is closed.

A smart and/or sane person would have been really embarassed but would have let this blow over, and within a year even her closest friends wouldn't have remembered it. Instead she's publically setting fire to her own reputation. If she applied for a job at my company and they did a routine internet search she'd be turned down for the position just out of fear that she's nuts.

[mhendo]

I agree.

It's an exercise in sheer narcissism, or a sign of mental illness.

ETA: Possibly both. Are there some levels of narcissism that quality as a mental health problem?

[Chessic Sense]

ETA: Possibly both. Are there some levels of narcissism that quality as a mental health problem?

This is why we need to save words like "OCD", "anti-social", and "claustrophobic" for when we really mean it. Otherwise, people forget what they actually mean. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder)

[USCDiver]

She's looking for a Lifetime TV movie deal.

[Sonnenstrahl]

Oh, York. If there's a subject you think can't be instantly and violently related to the Israel-Palestine conflict, just as a bunch of York students and you'll find out differently.

[Muffin]

I wonder if she will complain about not getting a course credit for that video?

[monstro]

I hate when jerks are so pathetic that you realize they must be crazy. I love to get my hate on, but a good insanity defense takes away some of the pleasure. And this person is just so over-the-top that she cannot be sane. No freakin' way.

I wish I were a student in her class, though. This is the kind of dramady that makes college so much fun.

[Uzi]

I wish I were a student in her class, though. This is the kind of dramady that makes college so much fun.

And the opportunity for trolling her in class would be wonderful:D

"Cool, I broke his brain" /Bart Simpson

[Alan Smithee]

ETA: D'oh! Didn't realize I was resurrecting a zombie! Sorry folks!

I was all ready to laugh at the girl's video, but she actually made a clear and relatively compelling case that she's been deliberately misrepresented by the media, that her original claim was much more reasonable than reported, and that both the university and The Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs have misreported events to improve the appearance of their own handling of the case while essentially throwing Sarah under the bus. Sure, she lacks perspective and gives the video a somewhat self-aggrandizing title, but so what? Everything looks more intense when you're in the middle of it, and I don't think I'd be able to present my position on an emotional topic as clearly even as a full adult.

[RickJay]

I was all ready to laugh at the girl's video, but she actually made a clear and relatively compelling case that she's been deliberately misrepresented by the media, that her original claim was much more reasonable than reported, and that both the university and The Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs have misreported events to improve the appearance of their own handling of the case while essentially throwing Sarah under the bus.
She completely, utterly fails to demonstrate that her original complaint was anything other than imbecilic. She makes a claim - that the professor announced Jews should be sterilized, and meant for it to be taken as his literal opinion - that has been contradicted by multiple eyewitnesses, that makes absolutely no sense at all (Professor Johnston is of Jewish descent) and that, given the subject and content of his lecture, has a rather logical alternative explanation.

Nothing in her video succeeds in making her claim any less dubious than it ever was. She says "I'm smart, I didn't misunderstand" but an avalanche of overwhelming evidence says that she did misunderstand. She presents no verifiable evidence and no argument to the contrary. The only evidence she has is her account of a conversation she had with different people in a different time and place (one she brought her Mom to. Jesus Christ, woman, you called your Mommy?) for which she has no documented evidence at all, and which is, again, unsupported by anyone else.

[SmellMyWort]

Well, here I was hoping for some fascinating update about how the university took away all her credits and made her start over or something, but all I got was an asinine defense of this moron. Talk about a disappointment.

[gamerunknown]

I think "all Jews should be sterilised" is a defensible position. If made by someone for whom the second coming (or the first) is contingent on it (Falwell?). Actually acting on it would be a different matter.

[Peremensoe]

Update:

The student in question has made a video (http://gawker.com/5882737/student-who-accused-jewish-professor-of-anti+semitism-still-working-to-expose-the-conspiracy-against-her) giving her side of the story. The whole thing is apparently a big anti-Jewish conspiracy, with at least two Jewish groups in on the cover-up.

:p I like the part where her silhouette says "several others students were equally disturbed"... and three other silhouettes appear. You see? It's not just her!

[Greg Charles]

My solution to this problem is to simply use "Martians" as the target group: "All Martians should be sterilized," to apply my solution to the professor's statement. So far, no Martians have complained. :)

Yes, but when they start complaining, it's going to be with 1920s style death rays!


(Sorry, but I've never actually had an opportunity to use that before.)