"Do You Have Any Weapons on You?" and COPS

[Shodan]

Bad boys, bad boys, whacha gonna do?
Whacha gonna do, when they come for you...

I have been watching a DVD series of the first fifteen seasons or so of COPS, presented to me by my dear son. The lesson I have gleaned is the same I got from Judge Judy and most dating shows - people are idiots.

However, I am noticing that in a lot of jurisdictions, the cop will ask the dumbass in question (before arrest, but that shouldn't matter) "Do you have any weapons on you?" Sometimes this is before a search, sometimes not. Sometimes it is just before a pat down search.

I know from intense legal research (consisting of watching Dragnet, Adam-12, and Law and Order reruns, that I do not have to answer any question. I do not have to carry ID. All I ever need to say is my name, address, and birth date, so they can identify me.

I assume this applies to the "Do you have any weapons" question as well. IOW, Officer Friendly asks, and I respond "No answer" or say nothing. Is this the case?

Another question is this. In one episode, IIRC, the officer told the suspect to empty out his pockets. If the suspect failed to comply, and the search was not otherwise justified, is that legal?

TIA.

Regards,
Shodan

[Martin Hyde]

If the officer has a reasonable suspicion that you may be carrying a weapon or have a weapon in the passenger compartment of your vehicle, he may search your person or the passenger compartment of your vehicle in the interests of officer safety.

He can't expand the search to locked containers or the vehicle's cargo areas without your consent, and if they open your trunk without your permission then there is a likelihood anything they find could not be used against you in a criminal proceeding because it would be improperly obtained.

Now, if you can be charged with a crime for refusing to answer the weapon question I don't know. I do know that in some states (Ohio for one) if you have a concealed carry license you as the license holder have an absolute requirement to immediately notify law enforcement the moment they stop you that you are a CCL holder and that you are carrying. Failure to do so can result in serious penalties, and in that scenario it is not a matter of responding to a question but an active duty you have incurred under Ohio statute as part of getting a concealed carry license and failure to live up to that duty carries significant criminal penalties.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Some states issue CCW permits with the condition that you must tell the police officer that you have a weapon on you. For those states you should not wait to inform the officer that you have one, it is mandated that you do so immediately.

In all other cases it is strongly advised that you tell the officer that you do, in fact, have a weapon if he asks you. If you don't answer or you lie and he finds one you're in for a long night. Pennsylvania (my state) does not have a duty to inform, but unless you like handcuffs and a gun pointed at your head you would do well to answer the officer's question honestly and promptly.

[Chimera]

If you have a weapon on you and they are injured by it during the search, then you can very probably be charged. Beyond that, in most cases if you do have a weapon, they are giving you a chance to turn it over before they find it and decide to charge you with carrying a concealed weapon.

[GaryM]

Somewhat related to your question about "do you have any weapons?"

If you have a concealed carry permit in some states you are required to disclose if you're armed at the initial contact. In other states, such as Missouri, you're not obligated to inform unless asked.

Most concealed carry permit holders are not going to appear on Cops, so I admit it doesn't really answer your question, but if you lie in answer to a direct question, couldn't that be an additional charge? You don't have to answer, but if you do...

[Duckster]

Know Your Rights: What To Do If You're Stopped By Police, Immigration Agents or the FBI (http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-immigrants-rights-racial-justice/know-your-rights-what-do-if-you), from the ACLU.

[Shodan]

if you lie in answer to a direct question, couldn't that be an additional charge? You don't have to answer, but if you do... That is my understanding as well - you don't have to answer, but you can't lie.

I doubt very much if the people I am watching have CC permits. I was thinking of it in terms of self-incrimination. If I am carrying a switchblade or something, if I answer truthfully to the weapons question, I am confessing to a crime. If I deny it, I am lying and interfering with justice or something. If I say nothing, and the officer cuts himself on the blade, I get charged with endangering an officer or something.If the officer has a reasonable suspicion that you may be carrying a weapon or have a weapon in the passenger compartment of your vehicle, he may search your person or the passenger compartment of your vehicle in the interests of officer safety.
Obviously it would depend on the circumstances, but in many of the cases I saw it seemed a routine question, not based on any suspicion but (as they often mention) so the officer can feel non-threatened. I can certainly see the advantages of that - you never want to startle someone with a gun.

But just as I don't have to offer any explanation of where I am going or what I am doing, even if what I am doing is illegal, I shouldn't have to tell him that I am carrying an illegal weapon.

The scenario I am thinking of is this:

I am driving along, and the officer stops me for some minor thing like a tail light being out. He pulls me over, I show him my license and registration and proof of insurance.

Then, for whatever reason, he asks me the $64,000 question - "do you have any weapons or contraband on you?" I respond "No answer", or say nothing at all. Is that illegal?

I am guessing that, without any other suspicion, my refusal cannot be made the basis for an arrest or search. IOW, if he didn't have reason to search me before asking the question, he doesn't have any reason after I refuse to answer.

IANAL, obviously, and I have never been arrested. I do occasionally carry a knife, especially during my evening walks (I use it to cut the ends off my cigar). I don't carry ID - usually all I have is my cigar, lighter, knife, and keys. The blade of the knife is less than 3" long, but it is a rather wicked looking item. Part of the edge is serrated, and it is designed to be opened by pushing on a thumb lever on the blade and then snapping it open with a flick of the wrist. (My son gave me that too.) So it certainly could be considered a weapon. If a cop stops me and asks if I am carrying a weapon, I could in theory refuse to answer. Yes?

Thanks to all who have responded (so far).

Regards,
Shodan

[Nathan S]

...

The scenario I am thinking of is this:

I am driving along, and the officer stops me for some minor thing like a tail light being out. He pulls me over, I show him my license and registration and proof of insurance.

Then, for whatever reason, he asks me the $64,000 question - "do you have any weapons or contraband on you?" I respond "No answer", or say nothing at all. Is that illegal?

I am guessing that, without any other suspicion, my refusal cannot be made the basis for an arrest or search. IOW, if he didn't have reason to search me before asking the question, he doesn't have any reason after I refuse to answer.

IANAL, obviously, and I have never been arrested. I do occasionally carry a knife, especially during my evening walks (I use it to cut the ends off my cigar). I don't carry ID - usually all I have is my cigar, lighter, knife, and keys. The blade of the knife is less than 3" long, but it is a rather wicked looking item. Part of the edge is serrated, and it is designed to be opened by pushing on a thumb lever on the blade and then snapping it open with a flick of the wrist. (My son gave me that too.) So it certainly could be considered a weapon. If a cop stops me and asks if I am carrying a weapon, I could in theory refuse to answer. Yes?

Thanks to all who have responded (so far).

Regards,
Shodan


I always carry a knife. More than one, normally, as a matter of fact.

But not for defensive purposes. I've done no training for that sort of thing and so would probably hurt myself if I tried to use a knife to fend off an aggressor.


Now, I don't live in the USA anymore, but, if asked be a LEO if I were carrying a weapon, my answer would likely be: "No, but I do have a knife in my pocket, which I carry and use as a tool."

So, I want to respond while still avoiding the loaded question about "weapons."

[crowmanyclouds]

Ignoring firearms since they been pretty well covered.

IANAL and all that.

First, I'd have a look at the law in your state about "weapons" in general. The knife laws of the 50 states (& D.C.) (http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm) is a great place to start.
Let's take a look at my state, Pennsylvania - Pa. C.S.A. 18.908 (http://knife-expert.com/pa.txt),... (c) Definition.--As used in this section "offensive weapon" means... any... metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise... ...

... "Offensive weapons."
Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches,
firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose. ...
Missing there are a couple of classics like nun-chucks and various other Asian martial arts "weapons". The case law is very interesting,... Although waved in a crowded barroom, defendant's folding knife with a seven-inch blade, which was purchased at a sporting goods store to be used for hunting and fishing, as not an implement for infliction of serious bodily injury which served no common lawful purpose within meaning of this section (1980)

Thirteen-inch butcher knife which defendant carried while he was charging up a crowded street and threatening to kill another person had a common, lawful purpose and thus was not an implement for infliction of serious bodily injury which served no common lawful purpose, within provision of this section defining offensive weapons, and defendant was not guilty of prohibited offensive weapon (1980)

"Wyoming Knife" which consisted of metal handle with two finger holes incorporating two cutting blades, one facing outward and the other inward, was hunting implement which had "common lawful purpose," and thus such knife was not "offensive weapon" for purposes of this section proscribing repairing, selling, dealing in, and using of possessing prohibited offensive weapons (1979)
...
Hunting knife, which was eight and one-half inches long with five-inch blade was not within purview of this section defining instruments of crime as anything specially made or specially adapted for criminal use (1978)
...and the most important lines,... Defendant possessed an "instrument of crime" so as to be guilty of a misdemeanor in the first degree where possession of pocketknife, which was a device commonly used for criminal purposes, was with intent to employ knife criminally and was under circumstances not manifestly for appropriate lawful uses (1976)

A paring knife is not a "criminal instrument" in the absence of evidence of intent to employ it criminally which would sustain a prosecution for possession of an instrument of crime. ...Now on those occasions that I was carrying an actual weapon (a cheap ASP knock-off expandable baton) I was never asked*. :eek: But when carrying a knife my answer was always "No, but I do have a knife in my pocket." Nathan S got it right, answering "Yes." is an admission that you're carrying a weapon not a knife and that changes everything. The second question oft' is "Why are you carrying X?" and the answer should never be "For self-defense." because, again, you've just admitted you're carrying a weapon. You can get away with carrying almost anything if you can provide a reasonable, appropriate, lawful use for you to be in possession of it; knives for cutting the ends off cigars (or in my case making straw holes in coffee cups) baseball bats in the warm part of the year but you better have a mitt and a couple of balls too, hammers and box cutters along with a bunch of other tools, tire irons if you're in a car, martial arts "weapons" along with your uniform, swords and other medieval weapons with garb and a canceled Renfaire ticket, you get the idea.

So, IMHO the correct answer "No weapons, but I do have a X in my Y."

CMC fnord!
*I think I've told this story before but . . . I used to drive go-go dancers and bounce bachelor parties. Drunk guys and hot (often drunk) girls can make for a bad mix and too often the numbers where stack very much not in my favor. Guns and knives aren't very flexible in their use, so I carried the baton and a really nice can of pepper spray.
So, one night we're (my brother and two dancers) are driving back from a BP on the Garden State Parkway, neither of us had disarmed, and of course we get pulled over by the NJ State Police. It instantly turned into a "Terry stop" and we get frisked. My officer only checks my "strong side" and finds my pepper spray. Problem is, I'm left handed so the baton is tucked into my waistband on my strong side which he never checked!
Fortunately a day planner with bookings and more importantly a picture album of half naked dancers convinced the officers that we weren't the "bad guys" they were really hoping we were. When it was clear everything was cool I asked what I should do if somebody missed something in the frisk . . . I really would have loved to hear the conversation they had after the got back in the car.
In the end they took all of our "toys" threw them in our trunk, with a warning that my pepper spray was over the legal size and my baton could make a real mess if I ever had to use it, and let us go on our way!

In hindsight I'm still not sure whether it's better to tell the cop he royally fucked up a routine pat down or wait until I'm asked to "assume the position" to tell him.

[anson2995]

Know Your Rights: What To Do If You're Stopped By Police, Immigration Agents or the FBI (http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-immigrants-rights-racial-justice/know-your-rights-what-do-if-you), from the ACLU.

That doesn't contain any information relevant to the issue, does it?

The practice the OP asks about stems from the Supreme Court case Terry v Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio), and what has come to be known as a Terry stop. If, during a stop, the officer has reason to believe you might have a weapon, he can legally conduct a frisk.

There are various state laws which determine whether contraband discovered during such a search is admissible as evidence. In addition, as others have stated, some states require you to acknowledge to a police officer that you are carrying a weapon that is legal to carry.

[kidchameleon]

Know Your Rights: What To Do If You're Stopped By Police, Immigration Agents or the FBI (http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-immigrants-rights-racial-justice/know-your-rights-what-do-if-you), from the ACLU.

Has anyone told the ACLU about the DEA and Secret Service yet? :D

[handsomeharry]

My money says that if you decline to give a yes or no answer, the cop will frisk you if he feels like it, and, if it should go to court, he will tell the judge that you were being evasive, or suspicious, or combative, and you would end up having been searched legally.

hh

[2gigch1]

I have utilized the 'no answer (did not speak)' successfully when asked if I had been drinking in the past.

[VOW]

The ACLU doesn't really shiv a git when it comes to Civil Rights violations, unless it's a big, glam case that will make the news.

HOWEVER, CONTACTING the ACLU and asking for help DOES get you put on their mailing list, and you'll get solicitations to donate.


~VOW

[lawbuff]

The scenario I am thinking of is this:

I am driving along, and the officer stops me for some minor thing like a tail light being out. He pulls me over, I show him my license and registration and proof of insurance.

Then, for whatever reason, he asks me the $64,000 question - "do you have any weapons or contraband on you?" I respond "No answer", or say nothing at all. Is that illegal?

If you say NO and are lying, and later are caught with them, through a legal search, it can be a crime? I base that on at least from a federal law standpoint, I have not researched it at any state level. Maybe one of the lawyers would know. This is known as the "Excuplatory No" doctine. Until the SC laid it to rest, the courts were confused on whether lying to a federal officer when you said "no I did not commit a crime", when you actually did, was a seperate crime in and of itself. The NO was a way of asserting your 5th AM right to remain silent. The SC said no to this.

If you stand mute, then that is not a so called "Adoptive admission" to guilt. If you answer NO, when it is yes, on a state level, to be a crime, that would take some research.

In Ohio v. Robinette, which was remanded back from the US SC and a new Syllabus was added, the OSC, citing Florida v. Royer, USSC, stated that is was a deminimus intrusion or such on an already detained motorist if the officer asks if the car contains contraband, as a motor vehicle stop must last no longer than the original purpose of the stop. So asking is permitted, and it is not a further detention, and need not be based on any suspicion.

[Loach]

I have asked the question in the OP to many people. It was never to get someone to incriminate themselves. It has always been in a situation in which I am searching or patting them down anyways and will find out for myself. I always ask in hopes that the person is truthful before I hurt myself on whatever they have whether it be needles or an edged weapon. I did have one woman tell me I better put on gloves because she was carrying her vibrator in her pocket. I appreciated the honesty.

[Cat Whisperer]

I've wondered about this lately, since I bought and started carrying a canister of dog repellent since people in my neighbourhood are a bit...lax about keeping their dogs under control. I think if I was ever stopped by a police officer while I was carrying it, I would volunteer that I have a can of dog repellent on me - I don't see any benefit to being coy about it.

[Shodan]

I have asked the question in the OP to many people. It was never to get someone to incriminate themselves. It has always been in a situation in which I am searching or patting them down anyways and will find out for myself. I always ask in hopes that the person is truthful before I hurt myself on whatever they have whether it be needles or an edged weapon. Suppose I respond "I understand that, officer. Nonetheless, I do not choose to answer any questions at this time."

I'm not going to resist if you go ahead and reach into my pocket anyway. But suppose you cut yourself on the knife that I sometimes carry. If the knife is otherwise legal (the blade is less than three inches long), I don't think I should be charged with anything - how can I be held responsible for an injury consequent to a search to which I never consented?

Or even suppose I am carrying a syringe full of heroin or somesuch. You ask me if I am carrying, I refuse to answer. You go ahead and pat me down, and stick yourself on the needle and (God forbid) get hepatitis or AIDS. Certainly I could be charged with illegal possession of drugs and paraphernalia, but have I done anything illegal because you got stuck?

On a related note, I thought that contraband found during a pat down could only be admitted as evidence if it might be a weapon, and was therefore OK for the officer to go into the pocket or whatever even without consent. Thus if you pat me down and feel a hard pointed object, you can pull it out without my consent and see that it is a syringe, and bust me for that. If you feel a packet full of powder, ask me what it is, I refuse to say, you cannot pull it out and charge me with possession of heroin because a packet of powder is not likely to be a weapon and therefore the officer would need probable cause for a search.

ETA - all this is not intended to seem like it is aimed at you, or accusatory toward the police at all, and I hope it doesn't come across that way.


Regards,
Shodan

[Loach]

Suppose I respond "I understand that, officer. Nonetheless, I do not choose to answer any questions at this time."

I'm not going to resist if you go ahead and reach into my pocket anyway. But suppose you cut yourself on the knife that I sometimes carry. If the knife is otherwise legal (the blade is less than three inches long), I don't think I should be charged with anything - how can I be held responsible for an injury consequent to a search to which I never consented?

Or even suppose I am carrying a syringe full of heroin or somesuch. You ask me if I am carrying, I refuse to answer. You go ahead and pat me down, and stick yourself on the needle and (God forbid) get hepatitis or AIDS. Certainly I could be charged with illegal possession of drugs and paraphernalia, but have I done anything illegal because you got stuck?

On a related note, I thought that contraband found during a pat down could only be admitted as evidence if it might be a weapon, and was therefore OK for the officer to go into the pocket or whatever even without consent. Thus if you pat me down and feel a hard pointed object, you can pull it out without my consent and see that it is a syringe, and bust me for that. If you feel a packet full of powder, ask me what it is, I refuse to say, you cannot pull it out and charge me with possession of heroin because a packet of powder is not likely to be a weapon and therefore the officer would need probable cause for a search.

ETA - all this is not intended to seem like it is aimed at you, or accusatory toward the police at all, and I hope it doesn't come across that way.


Regards,
Shodan

Like I said I hope they are truthful before I possibly hurt myself. No they can not be charged if I accidentally get hurt. And they are under no obligation to talk. I make it very clear that I am checking regardless of what they say. Of course I would only be conversational with some one who is generally cooperative to begin with.

For the second part, if it a search due to an arrest everything is coming out of the pockets. Anything found is admissible unless the entire reason for the arrest is thrown out (fruits of the poisonous tree, more complicated than that good faith exceptions and all). During a terry pat down an officer is still allowed to use their common sense and experience to determine if they find something that isn't a weapon. If it is not reasonable to expect that they could have identified an object during a pat down or if it was found somewhere that a weapon would not be found then it would be thrown out.

[Shodan]

Thanks for your response.

Regards,
Shodan

[Una Persson]

I have asked the question in the OP to many people. It was never to get someone to incriminate themselves. It has always been in a situation in which I am searching or patting them down anyways and will find out for myself. I always ask in hopes that the person is truthful before I hurt myself on whatever they have whether it be needles or an edged weapon. I did have one woman tell me I better put on gloves because she was carrying her vibrator in her pocket. I appreciated the honesty.
You see, I've had mixed signals about this.

In my state, it is mandatory that you tell an officer you are carrying if they ask. I found this strange, because I thought you would have to tell them if they ask anyhow... But they explicitly told us that the law did not require proactive informing (that is, if you're pulled over for a routine traffic stop or DUI checkpoint). A city officer told us we should NEVER proactively inform an officer we're carrying, as, quoting, "it seems like you're being aggressive and challenging his authority." However, a sheriff deputy I asked said "we really appreciate knowing it, but but if you come right out and it's the first thing you say, it looks suspicious...like you're bragging."

I've not been pulled over yet while carrying, but I honestly don't know if I would proactively tell an officer I have my legal CCW in my handbag. Any thoughts on whether it would make sense for an officer to be threatened or intimidated by a lawful CCW holder saying "BTW, I'm a CCW holder and I'm carrying?" :confused:

[Loach]

You see, I've had mixed signals about this.

In my state, it is mandatory that you tell an officer you are carrying if they ask. I found this strange, because I thought you would have to tell them if they ask anyhow... But they explicitly told us that the law did not require proactive informing (that is, if you're pulled over for a routine traffic stop or DUI checkpoint). A city officer told us we should NEVER proactively inform an officer we're carrying, as, quoting, "it seems like you're being aggressive and challenging his authority." However, a sheriff deputy I asked said "we really appreciate knowing it, but but if you come right out and it's the first thing you say, it looks suspicious...like you're bragging."

I've not been pulled over yet while carrying, but I honestly don't know if I would proactively tell an officer I have my legal CCW in my handbag. Any thoughts on whether it would make sense for an officer to be threatened or intimidated by a lawful CCW holder saying "BTW, I'm a CCW holder and I'm carrying?" :confused:

My answer had nothing to do with CCW or routine interactions. I am in a state in which it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit. The only time I have asked the question is like in the OP, when I am about to and have the legal right to search. If in the scenario you state I would see no reason to mention it unless you think the officer might see it and get the wrong idea. It might be better to get it out in the open in that case. I have had LEOs let me know like this in the past and it was never a problem.

[Richard Parker]

The ACLU doesn't really shiv a git when it comes to Civil Rights violations, unless it's a big, glam case that will make the news.

HOWEVER, CONTACTING the ACLU and asking for help DOES get you put on their mailing list, and you'll get solicitations to donate.


~VOW

Off-topic, but just FYI, both of these claims are false.

Calling your local ACLU affiliate does not put you on any mailing list unless you expressly agree to receive mail, and state ACLU affiliates take run-of-the-mill civil rights cases all the time. They don't take every case, of course, but more often than not they will take it if its a meritorious civil liberties claim, there's no money in it (so a private attorney won't take it), and there isn't someone better suited to handle the matter.

[Bricker]

My money says that if you decline to give a yes or no answer, the cop will frisk you if he feels like it, and, if it should go to court, he will tell the judge that you were being evasive, or suspicious, or combative, and you would end up having been searched legally.

hh

Your money is wrong.

[Mister Rik]

You can get away with carrying almost anything if you can provide a reasonable, appropriate, lawful use for you to be in possession of it; knives for cutting the ends off cigars (or in my case making straw holes in coffee cups) baseball bats in the warm part of the year but you better have a mitt and a couple of balls too, hammers and box cutters along with a bunch of other tools, tire irons if you're in a car, martial arts "weapons" along with your uniform, swords and other medieval weapons with garb and a canceled Renfaire ticket, you get the idea.

If I'm on my way to or from work, I routinely have eight knives with me, since I'm a chef and have my own kitchen knives. Granted, the kitchen knives are in a closed knife case, along with my Leatherman (which I'm counting because it has a small knife blade). The eighth knife is the folding box knife in my pocket (cuz I'm not going to use my good kitchen knives to open boxes and such).

As to swords and such, I have a small collection of "decorative" (though still somewhat sharp and pointy) swords. I started the collection during a stretch of time when I didn't have a driver's license and had to carry my purchases home on foot. I was talking to a city cop one day and brought up the subject, asking if there were any laws that would prevent me from openly carrying these decorative swords in public, from the place of purchase to my home. He said he didn't know of any specific law off the top of his head, but added that as long as I had them sheathed and wasn't waving them around I was unlikely to get in any trouble. Though just to be safe, on one occasion when I bought a particularly large sword, I brought one of my empty bass guitar cases to the store with me and carried the sword home in that.

[Loach]

If I'm on my way to or from work, I routinely have eight knives with me, since I'm a chef and have my own kitchen knives. Granted, the kitchen knives are in a closed knife case, along with my Leatherman (which I'm counting because it has a small knife blade). The eighth knife is the folding box knife in my pocket (cuz I'm not going to use my good kitchen knives to open boxes and such).

As to swords and such, I have a small collection of "decorative" (though still somewhat sharp and pointy) swords. I started the collection during a stretch of time when I didn't have a driver's license and had to carry my purchases home on foot. I was talking to a city cop one day and brought up the subject, asking if there were any laws that would prevent me from openly carrying these decorative swords in public, from the place of purchase to my home. He said he didn't know of any specific law off the top of his head, but added that as long as I had them sheathed and wasn't waving them around I was unlikely to get in any trouble. Though just to be safe, on one occasion when I bought a particularly large sword, I brought one of my empty bass guitar cases to the store with me and carried the sword home in that.

It all depends on your state. I work and live in New Jersey. There are restrictions on switchblades and certain other types of bladed weapons but there is nothing specifically stating what length blades can be. You just can't carry one for unlawful purposes.

ETA some states do have length restrictions

[Saint Cad]

I was stopped once in Washington and the officer saw my CCW. His hand instantly went to his gun and he asked if I had any weapons in the car. I answered truthfully, "No." but his hand never left the butt of his gun during the stop.

[lawbuff]

On a related note, I thought that contraband found during a pat down could only be admitted as evidence if it might be a weapon, and was therefore OK for the officer to go into the pocket or whatever even without consent. Thus if you pat me down and feel a hard pointed object, you can pull it out without my consent and see that it is a syringe, and bust me for that. If you feel a packet full of powder, ask me what it is, I refuse to say, you cannot pull it out and charge me with possession of heroin because a packet of powder is not likely to be a weapon and therefore the officer would need probable cause for a search.

Regards,
Shodan

In Minnesota v. Dickerson, US SC, they ruled when an officer is conducting a Terry frisk and an object is felt that by thier training and experience is thought to be contraband, they can reach in and pull it out without a warrant. State Constitution's of course may afford greater protection??

Another case, similar in import is, Rawlings v. Kentucky, the US SC ruled that if an officer has Probable Cause to arrest, he can conduct a full search of the person even before the words "you are under arrest" are uttered. The actual arrest must take place very soon afterwards, no delay.

[lawbuff]

My money says that if you decline to give a yes or no answer, the cop will frisk you if he feels like it, and, if it should go to court, he will tell the judge that you were being evasive, or suspicious, or combative, and you would end up having been searched legally.

hh

The 4th AM states, a search conducted without a warrant is "Presumptively UNreasonable".

I have seen case law where the courts have ruled they are not in a position to second guess an officer's feeling in the field, therefore grant wide latitude in such a frisk. However, a crooked cop can, as you note, make up anything.

[Una Persson]

As to swords and such, I have a small collection of "decorative" (though still somewhat sharp and pointy) swords. I started the collection during a stretch of time when I didn't have a driver's license and had to carry my purchases home on foot. I was talking to a city cop one day and brought up the subject, asking if there were any laws that would prevent me from openly carrying these decorative swords in public, from the place of purchase to my home. He said he didn't know of any specific law off the top of his head, but added that as long as I had them sheathed and wasn't waving them around I was unlikely to get in any trouble. Though just to be safe, on one occasion when I bought a particularly large sword, I brought one of my empty bass guitar cases to the store with me and carried the sword home in that.
As stated you should check your state laws; it shouldn't be difficult to find. Thankfully my state doesn't care about carrying swords of any length, so long as they're not concealed. (I have a large collection of sharp and decidedly deadly swords, and I've been specifically trained to use them as a martial art, not fencing). That being said, I would never carry one just for the sake of, knowing that it's a very poor officer who can't find something to charge you with if he thinks you're being an ass or making a spectacle of yourself.

[Jackmannii]

The main lesson Shodan should get from viewing COPS* is that he should never, ever drive through the bad part of town with his car windows down, or someone will throw drugs into his car and he'll be arrested for possession, or possession with intent to sell (in the event the bad guys throw in drugs pre-packaged in glassine envelopes).

This happens to a lot of hapless arrestees on COPS.


*You have the first fifteen seasons on DVD? Good god. I hope that includes the famous prostitute sting episode. ("He touched me between my LAIGS!!!")

**My entire lifestyle is shaped around many years of watching COPS on TV (and accompanying ads). I get all my meals at Speedway quik-marts, buy minimal car insurance at the cheapest rates, and have fabulous furniture and electronics from the rent-to-own places.

[Loach]

The main lesson Shodan should get from viewing COPS* is that he should never, ever drive through the bad part of town with his car windows down, or someone will throw drugs into his car and he'll be arrested for possession, or possession with intent to sell (in the event the bad guys throw in drugs pre-packaged in glassine envelopes).

This happens to a lot of hapless arrestees on COPS.


*You have the first fifteen seasons on DVD? Good god. I hope that includes the famous prostitute sting episode. ("He touched me between my LAIGS!!!")

**My entire lifestyle is shaped around many years of watching COPS on TV (and accompanying ads). I get all my meals at Speedway quik-marts, buy minimal car insurance at the cheapest rates, and have fabulous furniture and electronics from the rent-to-own places.

Do you also go shirtless while wearing long blue jeans?

[Chimera]

I can't remember which show it was on. Was the woman who told the cop he didn't have any right to speak to her "that way" and called 911 to report that he was being rude to her while refusing to cooperate in any way an episode of COPS or some other show?

[Archaic_Entity]

I kind of skimmed this, but I figured I have a couple things of interest to y'all on the matter.

First, IANAL nor an officer of the law, nor anything related to either profession... with that due diligence:

Check your state's gun laws if at all pertinent to what you're worried about. http://handgunlaw.us/ is a good website for each state and also offers some insight to knife laws as well. Many states are "must inform" states which means that you have to, upon official contact with officers, inform them that you are legally armed. As far as I can make out, from talking to officers, the best way to do this is to cite the legislation foremost and during the course inform that you are armed.
For example, if I were in Michigan and pulled over, I would hand the officer my license and any other necessary materials, as well as my CCW (or whatever your state calls it, mine is a LTCH), and state, "As per MCL 28.425f(3), I am required to inform you that i am currently carrying a legally owned firearm." Avoid words that'll set them on guard, such as "gun" or "armed" and, for God's sake, do not say "gat" or "piece". Conduct yourself professionally.
Some officers will be fine with that, and some may not be. You are, in most instances, not required to disarm, but most of the time will be "for officer safety." Just follow officer instruction as completely as possible, and if you are ever requested to handle the weapon(s) in question repeat the command back loudly for verification. There has been at least one instance of a person removing their firearm from holster under instruction from the contacting officer only to get shot by the covering officer, so you want to make sure everyone knows you're being told to do so. If you do not want to comply with the command to disarm, voice your objection but do not make any movements. You could say, "I do not consent to being disarmed, but I will not resist your attempt to do so." Again, loudly, but politely. Hopefully the interaction is being recorded, and this could help if later legal action is taken. Hopefully, after being disarmed (or not), the rest of the transaction will go smoothly, and you can go about your business.

For states where you are not required to inform it gets a little trickier. If they ask you if you are armed, your best answer is a non-answer. I wouldn't be so bold as to say, "No answer," perhaps, but maybe, "There is nothing illegal on my person or in my vicinity." The objective is to verify that whatever is in your possession is legal, and therefore any search is unnecessary. Of course, they'll probably garner from the response that you most likely are armed. If so, just follow the instructions from above (if you like them... don't if you don't).

Also of note, you can also request that the officer obtain a warrant to search anything not on your person upon your removal from the car, as it is no longer within your personal reach. Some cops will just go willy-nilly searching you and anything you own, it is your duty to assert your rights as a citizen. If they crap on you, then that's something you'll have to consider for legal repercussions later. If you request a warrant or anything and they decide you are being less than submissive, just remember they're the ones in control of the situation, and your best bet is to be a good witness and lawyer up after everything's said and done.

All of that being said (I apologize for the long-windedness), my most important advise is just plain not to talk to cops. This is a good viewing, it's about an hour long or so if I remember correctly, but worth the time if you're worried about interactions with officers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc&feature=player_embedded

Bear in mind, all of this advice applies to dealing with officers in official capacity, if they're your drinking buds, and they know you personally... then assume whatever your personal relationship is with them. Maybe just ask them questions and figure out the nuances of their particular department, so that you could be better prepared for any official interactions with their colleagues.

[kopek]

Some states issue CCW permits with the condition that you must tell the police officer that you have a weapon on you. For those states you should not wait to inform the officer that you have one, it is mandated that you do so immediately.

In all other cases it is strongly advised that you tell the officer that you do, in fact, have a weapon if he asks you. If you don't answer or you lie and he finds one you're in for a long night. Pennsylvania (my state) does not have a duty to inform, but unless you like handcuffs and a gun pointed at your head you would do well to answer the officer's question honestly and promptly.

From experience and a small corner of the same state ---- what he says. My response, when asked, is "yes and the appropriate paperwork is in my wallet". And I don't move my hands while saying it or after until I am directed to. Saved myself a lot of hours and useless paperwork that way.

Also remember that your CCW may cross state lines to places that DO require disclosure. So best bet is just to fess up and not play lawyer on the roadside.

[Leo Bloom]

This is related:
Possessing a small amount (I forget how much) of pot gets you a fine. Possessing the same amount "in public" gets you jail.

Apparently forever NYC cops, on a stop and frisk, would tell you to take out everything from your pocket. Have a little pot? Bango. Instant "public" arrest. Sneaky.

The policy has been made illegal--fat lot of good that will do--but here, at least, you can absolutely refuse to empty your pockets.

But do it nicely.

[Loach]

For example, if I were in Michigan and pulled over, I would hand the officer my license and any other necessary materials, as well as my CCW (or whatever your state calls it, mine is a LTCH), and state, "As per MCL 28.425f(3), I am required to inform you that i am currently carrying a legally owned firearm."

You could say, "I do not consent to being disarmed, but I will not resist your attempt to do so."

Of course there is nothing illegal about saying things like this but it would raise my hackles if I had them. Normal people don't speak like this. A not normal person with a gun would make anyone nervous. You can convey the same message and still talk like a human. Would make me think of nutjobs who have political tracts on billboards in their front yards.

My response, when asked, is "yes and the appropriate paperwork is in my wallet". And I don't move my hands while saying it or after until I am directed to. Saved myself a lot of hours and useless paperwork that way.

That sounds very normal and non-hackle raising.

[Archaic_Entity]

Of course there is nothing illegal about saying things like this but it would raise my hackles if I had them. Normal people don't speak like this. A not normal person with a gun would make anyone nervous. You can convey the same message and still talk like a human. Would make me think of nutjobs who have political tracts on billboards in their front yards.



That sounds very normal and non-hackle raising.

To each his own. The way I consider it, I am in an official, eh, I wouldn't use the word confrontation, but it's the only one that comes to mind, confrontation so I should do my best to behave accordingly, with clear legal language.

In my mind, anyone who is inclined to follow the law when approached on the subject, almost regardless the words they use, is more apt to have my trust than the guy who is silently lying to me. If he wanted to use a weapon on me, he wouldn't tell me he had it in the first place (generally speaking).