'Great' people who were total A-holes

[Sampiro]

The passing of Steve Jobs and the hoopla over it has me thinking of the stuff I read about him in Pirates of Silicon Valley and a couple of articles from former employers over the years. All acknowledge his brilliants, his vision, his general greatness and work ethic, just as all the obits and mournfests on TV are doing, but he had a reputation, one that is at least partly substantiated by evidence, of being an unqualified asshole. He was verbally abusive, narcissistic, petty, a tyrant to work for, prone to irrational outbursts and tirades at any or no provocation; he denied the paternity of his own daughter and even swore under oath he was sterile rather than pay support for her or her mother even as he named the computer he was working on in her honor (LISA). There are numerous accounts of him publicly screaming at and insulting and humiliating employees who were working 90 hour weeks, particularly if he caught them taking catnaps and the like; at least a couple of employees over the years snapped and physically assaulted him.

By most accounts he mellowed in later years. He acknowledged his illegitimate daughter and incorporated her into his legitimate family, but he could still be petty or have an occasional tantrum.

But, history forgives the geniuses. Those of us who didn't know them personally don't remember them for their friendship after all.

So who are some other people that history would consider "Great" due to their importance or their contributions, but who the record would seem to indicate were, in addition to doing truly great things, total assholes?
====================================

A few that come to mind:


Thomas Edison- he was almost uniformly hated by the people who knew him including his children. He was an iron handed businessman who crushed competitors' life work without a moment of hesitation or remorse. He routinely verbally abused his employees and his wives (not to imply he was a polygamist- he just happened to marry twice) in public- both wives and his son developed serious substance abuse problems. His fights with/crushing of Tesla are particularly famous.

Speaking of,

Nikola Tesla- perhaps not so much a-hole as just impossible to work with because he was so damned crazy. He had severe OCD of course, but while he couldn't help the condition it made him impossible to live or work with: everything had to be divisible by three or nine, a woman wearing earrings and or pearls (and God forbid pearl earrings) would make him unable to concentrate with a possible hissy fit, and just generally anti-social to the 3rd/6th/9th degree. Also had some truly weird beliefs, like his belief that he was receiving instructions from extraterrestrial civilizations.

Isaac Newton- one of the most hated professors in the history of Cambridge, famous for delivering his lectures even if no students attended. An intolerant fanatic not only in his religious views but in his opinions of his own infallibility. Incredibly vain intellectually to the point of blistering obsessive attacks on people he viewed as competition (Leibniz and Hooke especially- his comment to Hooke "If I have seen a little further [than you] it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" is believed by some biographers to have been a bitchy slam at the fact that Hooke was extremely short (less than 5'0) and humpbacked. Also misogynistic and proud of the fact he died a virgin.

Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson- also extremely OCD, and like Newton a hated lecturer whose students (at least per very old story) once plotted to kill him. He had all kinds of odd beliefs, a couple of which were eccentric for the time but we now know have merit (daily bathing and eating lots of citrus for example) but many of which were just weird: sitting down only when in the saddle or when (to quote Sheldon Cooper) it was a non-negotiable social construct, keeping his arms raised as much as possible to balance the blood flow, numerous daily rituals, etc.. He was racist even by 1860 Virginia standards, and near fanatically religious.

Robert F. Kennedy- I don't think I've ever read anything about RFK that didn't say, in word or in essence, that he was a two-faced egotistical entitled asshole who would gladly throw anybody under the bus, regardless of what they had done for him, the second they became a liability. Just basically a ruthless and utterly selfish individual, and of course a blatant womanizer even as he promoted himself as the ultimate family man due to his eternally pregnant wife.

Literary greats seem often to have been self absorbed assholes. The number of them who were womanizing deadbeat and or absentee dads alone seems endless: Ezra Pound, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Lord Byron, Norman Mailer, etc..

Who are some other 'great genius/horrible person' nominees?

[Two Many Cats]

Frank Lloyd Wright comes to mind. Abandoning his wife and children for some floozy, and as he announced this to his family, he told his twelve-year-old son, "...that he was the man of the family now, and was resposible for the grocery bills that were due." Frank never paid his bills on time. His son never forgave him.

[voguevixen]

My husband works for NASA and has heard from more than a few people that Stephen Hawking is kind of a jerk.

[Miller]

Well, there's always Wagner...

[Knorf]

How incredibly absurd to mention Steve Jobs, asshole narcissist and exploiter of other people's ideas, in the same breath as people like Stephen Hawking and Isaac Newton.

Thomas Edison might be apt, although at least he did his own work (mostly).

[Jragon]

How incredibly absurd to mention Steve Jobs, asshole narcissist and exploiter of other people's ideas, in the same breath as people like Stephen Hawking and Isaac Newton.

Thomas Edison might be apt, although at least he did his own work (mostly).

I thought Edison was rather notorious for basically taking credit for his student's ideas and inventions.

[Knorf]

I thought Edison was rather notorious for basically taking credit for his student's ideas and inventions.

I said mostly. Jobs did nothing but use other people's ideas.

[Becky2844]

I was trying to be with you, since I've known (and know of) a lot of assholes. But when you expounded on RFK I was like Hold up and whoa. When Robert was shot in the head, laying on the floor in the kitchen of that hotel, straining to hold his head up he asked, "Is everybody else alright?"
His assasination is what broke my cherry.
I was "around" when JFK was assasinated. And Marten Luther King. I was sickened and troubled. But I didn't "give up, and then be born again out of the ashes" until Robert was killed. A man who convinced his brother (the President) to back his pc rhetoric with substance.
I've read, "You can either paint with passion, or you can live with passion. But you can't do both." God bless those who disagreed.

[Isamu]

I'm so glad someone made this thread Sampiro - all this Steve Jobs fervour was getting to be a bit too much. Of course, I'm not glad he's dead and neither do I ignore the impact he had on the world, but the guy was a selfish, self-righteous prick for the most part (at least so it seems).

Perhaps that's just what it took to bring his vision of personal computing to the world at that particular time in history - a big brass ego and a cudgel of superiority. But in the end, what is the measure of how he changed the world? Difficult to judge, I'd say - he made a pretty major contribution to the way personal computers turned out, so far. Pretty minor, in the great scheme of things though, isn't it? He is also responsible for re-inventing the walkman. And for making a shit-ton of money, which is probably his greatest personal achievement given that he can't take credit for any technological advances ever made.

Strangely enough, I'm more than willing to overlook the same kinds of ego-centrism and callousness in people who have taken leadership in times when they were needed (successful military leaders, for example) or in people who have accomplished something truly groundbreaking and unquestionably beneficial to humanity, whether or not they made a fortune from it.

[Alessan]

I'd say all great men and women were assholes to one degree or another. Being great means making things happen the way you want them to happen, and that usually means forcing other people to fall in line. The stereotypical "nice guy" hardly ever gets to be a Great Man.

But saying that someone acted like an asshole doesn't mean that they were an asshole, it means that they could be an asshole when circumstances demanded it. There's a difference. I'm sure guys like Jobs, RFK, George Washington or Abraham Lincoln had their nasty moments, but they had their good moments, too, and I don't see why the former should overshadow the latter.

[Typo Knig]

It would be quicker to list the "great" peopke who weren't assholes.

Soeaking of assholes, we know from his letters and papers that Einstein was a world-class jerk, as well as being a world-class genius. The contract he wrote for his first wife to follow to be allowed :dubious: to accompany him to Berlin was terrible. And he divorced her anyway. And continued cheating on his second wife. Brilliant, but not a role model for one's personal life.

[Novelty Bobble]

It would be quicker to list the "great" peopke who weren't assholes.

I think is a short list comprising

Charles Darwin..........

yep, that's about it.

[Thudlow Boink]

I'd say all great men and women were assholes to one degree or another. Being great means making things happen the way you want them to happen, and that usually means forcing other people to fall in line. The stereotypical "nice guy" hardly ever gets to be a Great Man.But you don't have to be verbally abusive, petty, vindictive, narcissistic, and prone to irrational outbursts to be Great. In fact, I'd say it helps if you're not. This thread isn't about great people who weren't always nice; it's about great people who were total assholes. Washington and Lincoln, from all I've read about them, were not, whatever their faults may have been. I would not have minded being around them personally: being their friend or neighbor or employee.


As long as I'm here, my own unoriginal contribution: Ty Cobb generally gets held up as the example of a baseball great who was a total asshole.

[WordMan]

I think is a short list comprising

Charles Darwin..........

yep, that's about it.

He may not have been an asshole (does he get a pass for how things played out with Wallace?), but there has to be a joke about his extreme gastrointestinal discomfort and farting in there somewhere ;)

As for folks who say Jobs just stole other people's ideas - wow, that feels like a small-minded view. From my perspective, as a musician, it is simply understood that whay came before informs and undergirds the new examples which come after - if someone can build on what is out there the way Jobs did - with the consistent impact his products and "eco-systems" had over the years - to write it off to simple parasitic exploitation seems factually incorrect. Results matter.

And as for the OP - it is a fascinating paradox, isn't it? Per the descriptions of Tesla and Stonewall (didn't know about his OCD) - it almost seems like "it all evens out" - if someone bulges out in some achievement category, their balloon is squeezed tighter somewhere else.

My bottom line is: Expecting more of history-changing people in terms of Character is a flawed premise from the start. The reality of their assholishness is a clear communication of Man's basic flawed nature - even the greatest achievers amongst put on their pants one leg at a time and have the deep flaws that plague all of us. Any expectation otherwise is more a reflection of our need for Heroes that the problem of the "great" person. You, sir or ma'am, do the same weird shit, as do I - it's just that no one has shined a light on us.

But, yeah, some of them have been total douchebags. ;)

[EvilTOJ]

Winston Churchill. He was great for getting England through WWII, but he was a complete warmonger and drunken asshole who was voted out of office as soon as possible. After the war he wanted to go to go war with Russia, for fucks' sake! And everyone knows what happens when starting a land war in Asia.

[tdn]

Will Rogers. What a H8R. :mad:

[madmonk28]

Henry Ford was the first person I thought of, also Stalin had his dark side believe it or not.

[Ludovic]

This brings to mind the feminist quote "well-behaved women rarely make history." I've thought, even before this thread, "yeah, that's true, but well-behaved men rarely make history, either. [unless they're dynastic heirs.]"

[WordMan]

I think is a short list comprising

Charles Darwin..........

yep, that's about it.

I would add Marcus Aurelius, the Stoic Roman Emperor. Gandhi had that whole "sleeping with naked girls" thing, but can we let that slide?

Martin Luther King, Jr was a womanizer by more recent accounts...

Julius Caesar flouted the Roman Republic and took it over, and had the reputation for sexual conquest and general Macchiavellian behavior - while being a very successful general, politician and ultimately Emperor. The debate between his assholeishness and greatness continues to this day...

[stpauler]

Reminds me of Jill Sobule's song 'Heroes' (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=video&cd=1&ved=0CD8QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De-nCQgQuZxw&ei=j_-OTtm7Oonh0QGE6p1R&usg=AFQjCNEggR-5Qsm0LmFbXdysN6dArgap2A)

William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty

[joebuck20]

MLK was a notorious philanderer.

[No umlaut for U]

Henry Ford was the first person I thought of, also Stalin had his dark side believe it or not.

This. Ford's antisemitism isn't that well-known. I think that man was hit by the evil stick around 1928.

[TriPolar]

Steve Jobs was a great at designing tech devices, and a dick. Edison, brilliant inventor, and a dick. Henry Ford, inventor, designer, captain of industry, and a dick. The list goes on and on. It's a dog eat dog world, and the biggest successes are often those who are willing to screw the other guy to get what they want. After success, a swelled ego and the inevitable side effects of that will emerge also.

I shouldn't be too critical either. I have shared a common characteristic with those guys from time to time.

[Annie-Xmas]

Steve Martin, for all his various talents, is really an asshole. And don't get me started on Woody Allen.

[bup]

Sampiro, it is from you that I know Rosa Parks was as friendly as a badger.

[AK84]

I would add Marcus Aurelius, the Stoic Roman Emperor. Gandhi had that whole "sleeping with naked girls" thing, but can we let that slide?

Martin Luther King, Jr was a womanizer by more recent accounts...

Julius Caesar flouted the Roman Republic and took it over, and had the reputation for sexual conquest and general Macchiavellian behavior - while being a very successful general, politician and ultimately Emperor. The debate between his assholeishness and greatness continues to this day...

Gandhi, after all he is just one letter away from being an asshole. Michael Schumacher, greatest driver, but a bloody cheat. Kubrick and Francis Ford Coppola. When you cause the heart attack of a 37 year old man, you are certainly an asshole.

[Sampiro]

Sampiro, it is from you that I know Rosa Parks was as friendly as a badger.

Though in fairness I only met her when she was old. Perhaps she was once much nicer. Or perhaps somehow I turned her (I never ever should have seated her at the back of the restaurant).

[sparky!]

Steve Martin, for all his various talents, is really an asshole. And don't get me started on Woody Allen.

I've heard in a few interviews that Steve Martin is actually a really sweet guy, but crushingly shy, hence coming off bad.

[Sailboat]

Julius Caesar flouted the Roman Republic and took it over, and had the reputation for sexual conquest and general Macchiavellian behavior - while being a very successful general, politician and ultimately Emperor.

I don't think Julius Caesar was ever an Empreror proper. His protege Augustus Caesar is generally regarded as the first Emperor. Julius did have the tile Imperator conferred on him, but others had held it before him and at that time it was not synonymous with what we now think of as Emperor. Julius was a Dictator.

[WordMan]

Julius was a Dictator.

With an emphasis on "dick" according to many contemporaries (well, they killed him, didn't they?).

[Clothahump]

Lyndon Johnson.

Asshole Extreme.

[AK84]

He was more a dick, in that he liked to flaunt it.

[ralph124c]

This. Ford's antisemitism isn't that well-known. I think that man was hit by the evil stick around 1928.

It is true, Ford wrote a series of articles published in the Detroit Free Press, lambasting "the Jews".
But I maintain it was largely based upon ignorance.
The fact is, Ford did make a public apology (also printed in the papers), so at least he did acknowledge the error of his ways.

[ralph124c]

Clinton was well known to be nasty to his staff-I say him rip into a staffer (it was on TV).
I bet he's a real prize at home!

[madmonk28]

I don't know how many people consider him great*, but people are surprised to learn that Jimmy Carter has a huge temper. I used to work with a guy who is close to the Carters both personally and professionally and he had some amazing stories of him losing his temper at screwups.

*I happen to think that Carter is the greatest ex-president this nation has ever had and has done more with his ex-presidency, than most presidents (including himself) are able to do while in office.

[Yorikke]

The passing of Steve Jobs and the hoopla over it has me thinking of the stuff I read about him in Pirates of Silicon Valley and a couple of articles from former employers over the years. All acknowledge his brilliants

His brilliant what?

Joe

[lisiate]

You can add V S Naipaul to the literary assholes list.

[Mr. Excellent]

You can add V S Naipaul to the literary assholes list.

Oh, yes. His views on women in literature are ... special.

[Bob Ducca]

Walt Disney was a huge anti-semite.

[Malacandra]

His brilliant what?

Joe

His brilliants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_(diamond_cut)). Apparently he had quite the diamond collection.

[TriPolar]

Walt Disney was a huge anti-semite.

As I noted in a CS thread, Disney was probably as much of an anti-Semite as the average non-Jewish producer in Hollywood in his time, and maybe now as well.

[Argent Towers]

Being a "womanizer" (ridiculous word) might seem wrong by today's standards, but I'm under the impression that it was pretty much the norm half a century ago, and that it was pretty well understood and accepted by society that married men would not be monogamous.

[TreacherousCretin]

I happen to think that Carter is the greatest ex-president this nation has ever had and has done more with his ex-presidency, than most presidents (including himself) are able to do while in office.

I agree.

I'd never heard about his temper, but have read that he could be sanctimonious and kind of mean.

.

[lazybratsche]

Craig Ventner and James Watson are two who are definitely at the top of any Famous Asshole Scientist list.

[PhiloVance]

Being a "womanizer" (ridiculous word) might seem wrong by today's standards, but I'm under the impression that it was pretty much the norm half a century ago, and that it was pretty well understood and accepted by society that married men would not be monogamous.

Bolding mine.

And they (meaning married men) are now?

[El Gui]

Didn't someone on this board have an upleasant encounter once with Jacques Cousteau?

[Knorf]

Thing is, everyone is an asshole to someone from time to time.

[Sampiro]

His brilliants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_(diamond_cut)). Apparently he had quite the diamond collection.

I know it's politically incorrect these days, but I'm severely homophonic. I kant help it really, its howe I was razed.


Craig Ventner and James Watson are two who are definitely at the top of any Famous Asshole Scientist list.

Watson's treatment of Rosalind Franklin in his memoirs will make your eyebrows rise. He refers to this woman and other female scientists who were vital to the discovery of DNA as "the girls"- and not in a "one of the guys" kind of way- frequently. Franklin had to deal with major sexism throughout her career. Had a reputation as an unpleasant person herself, though this might be partly why.

Thing is, everyone is an asshole to someone from time to time.

Yeah, but for some people it's closer to the norm than the exception.

[Malacandra]

I know it's politically incorrect these days, but I'm severely homophonic. I kant help it really, its howe I was razed.

I thought the OK phrase was "Orientation towards phonemes of the same sound" or OTPOTSS. And you're what we Brits would call a "diamond geezer" anyway, Samps. :cool:

[Crafter_Man]

Met a guy who said he once dated Chevy Chase's daughter. He said Chevy was a complete asshole.

[SeldomSeen]

Lyndon Johnson.

Asshole Extreme.

To be sure. I've just finished reading Means of Ascent by Robert A. Caro which tells the story of how LBJ stole his election to the Senate from TX governor Coke Stevenson. Vote buying, voter intimidation, fraud in ballot counting, you name it. Also, he was an absolute dick to his wife. Screaming tantrums at subordinates. How that asshat ever became president is beyond me....
SS

[Argent Towers]

How that asshat ever became president is beyond me....
SS

It was his good looks.

[Two Many Cats]

I think is a short list comprising

Charles Darwin..........

yep, that's about it.

Actually, from most accounts, Abraham Lincoln was a real sweetheart for the most part. And the few times he did snap at people, he often made pains to apologize for it.

He and Charles Darwin were born on the same day. Well, there's one point for astrology.

[Two Many Cats]

Winston Churchill. He was great for getting England through WWII, but he was a complete warmonger and drunken asshole who was voted out of office as soon as possible. After the war he wanted to go to go war with Russia, for fucks' sake! And everyone knows what happens when starting a land war in Asia.

And I lost all repect for him when he said he couldn't understand why everyone was so hesitant to use poison gas on unruly tribes in the Middle East.

[Two Many Cats]

Steve Martin, for all his various talents, is really an asshole. And don't get me started on Woody Allen.

So I've heard about Steve Martin. And on the ABC National News tonight they were kissing his ass because he plays the banjo so pretty, he won some big deal Bluegrass award. Now, okay, he picks a mean banjo, but does Diane Sawyer really need to break her arm patting him on the back for it?

And yeah, Woody's an asshole too.

[Typo Knig]

Craig Ventner and James Watson are two who are definitely at the top of any Famous Asshole Scientist list.

IMO it's hard to push William Schockley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shockley) off the top of that list. He elbowed his way into a part of the invention of the transistor. Sure, he did the work . But after it was clear Bardeen and Brattain were on the right track he, their boss, did not want to miss out on the credit. The semiconductor company he later founded could have been the only such company in the US, but he was such an asshole he drove away everyone who worked for him to found their own companies. These are *scientists* who will put up with world-class assholiness to be near brilliance (for example, Paul Erdos - well in his case it was borderline luncacy). Schockley is best known to the public for his racism. Schockley was also a jerk once to my advisor.

[BrotherCadfael]

According to this (http://xkcd.com/767/), Mr. Rogers was kinda a dick to his wife...

[No umlaut for U]

It is true, Ford wrote a series of articles published in the Detroit Free Press, lambasting "the Jews".
But I maintain it was largely based upon ignorance.
The fact is, Ford did make a public apology (also printed in the papers), so at least he did acknowledge the error of his ways.

Actually, he owned a newspaper, the Dearborn Independent, (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/ford1.html) and the reprinted said articles as the International Jew. Hella lot to apologize for.:dubious:

[R. P. McMurphy]

I tend to think that, in these days "tear 'em down" media, that the shortcomings of individuals get magnified by those that want to sell books and get noticed. I tend to think it skews history in that it portrays these people according to today's standards not the mindset of what was acceptable at the time.

The problem is that in doing that it tends to minimize the real effect that the person had on world. Also, people are not the same at age 20 or 40 or 70. Most people's (not everyone's) moral compass becomes more refined as they age.

People that had the intelligence, creativity and vision to advance the world have to get their due. If the pluses far outweigh the minuses that doesn't give us the right to label them "assholes". The world is a different place because of Steve Jobs (like it or not), Bill Clinton was a great president despite his personal flaws. Jimmy Carter? You can't become president without a kicking some ass and throwing some tantrums (that characteristic got John McCain close). Nixon probably epitomized it. Lance Armstrong rose above the competition. It's easy to say he was cheating but that being the case, he was rising above a competition that was cheating every bit as much as he was. Now there is a book out that "exposes" Walter Payton. All the media of the coverage of the book has been on his negative characteristics.

I try not to get caught in the gossip mentality that is so prevalent these days. It warps history and what we should learn from it. That doesn't mean that bad behavior of geniuses needs to be hidden but we need to be sure that the scales are accurately tared.

[Quintas]

Robert F. Kennedy- ........, and of course a blatant womanizer even as he promoted himself as the ultimate family man due to his eternally pregnant wife.



Hmm. That's a new one on me. I'd heard all the other statements you posted about RFK, but not the womanizing part. It's not shocking or anything, he was a Kennedy, I'd just never heard RFK=womanizer in the same way it is now common knowledge about his father and JFK

[billfish678]

Assholeishness doesn't negate the greatness. Then again, greatness doesn't excuse the assholeishness.

I kinda wonder about the "victims" of the these assholes. We all know/are related/worked with/are victims of some raging asshole somewhere sometime. But most of us don't have wander through society with daily reminders of how great society thinks the asshole you experienced is. My blood pressure just goes up thinking about going through that.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

Hmm. That's a new one on me. I'd heard all the other statements you posted about RFK, but not the womanizing part. It's not shocking or anything, he was a Kennedy, I'd just never heard RFK=womanizer in the same way it is now common knowledge about his father and JFK

I thought it was common knowledge that both RFK and JFK fucked Marylin Monroe raw and rotten, sometimes within days (hours?) of each other....

[matt_mcl]

Emily Murphy was the first woman magistrate in Canada and the British Empire and was one of the "Famous Five," the group of five women whose lawsuit against the Government of Canada was responsible for getting women recognized as "qualified persons" able to sit in the Senate, establishing a crucial precedent both for women's rights in Canada and for constitutional law (the living tree doctrine).

She also published a series of increasingly fanatical editorials in which she argued that Blacks and especially Chinese were introducing marijuana into Canada in order to sap the white race and seduce white people into debauchery and moral weakness. She was almost single-handedly responsible for getting marijuana outlawed. It was to the point that many people, even at the time in the 1920s, remarked on her extreme degree of racism.

[PandaBear77]

Tonight while playing bar trivia I learned that Andy Griffith broke his right hand on 4 different occasions by punching the wall during temper tantrums on the set of The Andy Griffith Show.

[Isamu]

Steve Jobs was a great at designing tech devices,

Not being snarky, just genuinely curious - what devices did he design? I'm pretty sure he didn't 'design' the Apple 11e, but he marketed it. I know he didn't design the MacIntosh either.

[voguevixen]

Assholeishness doesn't negate the greatness. Then again, greatness doesn't excuse the assholeishness.

Also this is an "eye of the beholder" kind of thing. I understand that if you happen to come upon Steve Martin and ask for an autograph he will hand you a card saying something along the lines of: "This hearby deecrees that you have met Steve Martin." Which to me is HILARIOUS and BRILLIANT but to some people they might consider it a "dick move.' ::shrug::

[Kilmore]

Tonight while playing bar trivia I learned that Andy Griffith broke his right hand on 4 different occasions by punching the wall during temper tantrums on the set of The Andy Griffith Show.

I'll give him a pass for that. He may have lost it enough to punch, but kept it together enough not to punch anybody.

[rowrrbazzle]

Read (and "Look Inside") Intellectuals (http://www.amazon.com/Intellectuals-Marx-Tolstoy-Sartre-Chomsky/dp/0060916575) by Paul Johnson.

Sartre, Marx, Tolstoy, Brecht, Ibsen, Shelley, and others: all complete bastards.

[Full Metal Lotus]

W.C. Fields vaudevillian and comedic actor from silent era to early 1940's.
Petty, violent, paranod, cheap, alchoholic (rumoured opium addiction as well), used women and "starlets" like kleenex, (a few are rumoured to have died from botched abortions) hated small animals, blacks, jews, chinese, non whites in general.
Cheated at cards and pool, refused to play anyone who had the slightest chance of beating him, or spotting his dishonesty.
At the start of WW2, he bought german war bond, in case Germany won.
Insisted on top billing and lead placement in shots (closest to camera nearest front of stage, etc ). Would have massive tantrums if not obeyed.
His on screen persona was basically a watered down version of his real life person.

Don't get me started on Charlie Chaplan.....

[DoctorJ]

So I've heard about Steve Martin. And on the ABC National News tonight they were kissing his ass because he plays the banjo so pretty, he won some big deal Bluegrass award. Now, okay, he picks a mean banjo, but does Diane Sawyer really need to break her arm patting him on the back for it?

That would be the IBMA Entertainer of the Year for the record he made with the Steep Canyon Rangers. (Incidentally, I've seen them several times sans Steve, most recently last night, and bluegrass bands really don't get much better.)

I have long heard that he just has no tolerance for typical fan behavior, and doesn't like being approached by strangers. I really have a hard time thinking badly of him after he read about my radio station in the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/us/12radio.html?pagewanted=all) and sent a significant donation check during our fund drive. It came through his charitable foundation, who insisted that we not make a big deal about it.

[lisiate]

And I lost all repect for him when he said he couldn't understand why everyone was so hesitant to use poison gas on unruly tribes in the Middle East.

Wow, you must be pretty old to remember that!

[buddha_david]

But you don't have to be verbally abusive, petty, vindictive, narcissistic, and prone to irrational outbursts to be Great. In fact, I'd say it helps if you're not.
I beg to differ -- "great" people achieve success by being naturally driven, uncompromising, and perfectionist to a fault. Paradoxically, these qualities which make them tend to act like jerks are the same virtues which allowed them to achieve success in the first place. Very few people became successful by being meek and submissive.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I'm an asshole.

But I'm not great.

So I'm halfway there.


mmm

[Becky2844]

Don't remember who said this but, "You can either paint (or write or act or think or create or lead a nation etc.) with passion or you can live with passion. But you can't do both."

[WordMan]

That would be the IBMA Entertainer of the Year for the record he made with the Steep Canyon Rangers. (Incidentally, I've seen them several times sans Steve, most recently last night, and bluegrass bands really don't get much better.)

I have long heard that he just has no tolerance for typical fan behavior, and doesn't like being approached by strangers. I really have a hard time thinking badly of him after he read about my radio station in the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/us/12radio.html?pagewanted=all) and sent a significant donation check during our fund drive. It came through his charitable foundation, who insisted that we not make a big deal about it.

Cool story. His autobiography, Born Standing Up (http://www.amazon.com/Born-Standing-Up-Comics-Life/dp/1416553649) (Amazon), is incredibly well-written. He comes across as deeply thoughtful and intelligent, but not like a douchebag at all - unlike, say, reading Sting's memoir, Broken Music.

[Namkcalb]

I would add Marcus Aurelius, the Stoic Roman Emperor. Gandhi had that whole "sleeping with naked girls" thing, but can we let that slide?

Julius Caesar flouted the Roman Republic and took it over, and had the reputation for sexual conquest and general Macchiavellian behavior - while being a very successful general, politician and ultimately Emperor. The debate between his assholeishness and greatness continues to this day...
I second Gandhi, Darwin and Marcus Aurelius. Three undeniably great men, who weren't 'orrid.

Julius Caesar was definately an a'hole, he wouldn't have been able to accomplish half of what he did if he wasn't.

I would like to add the Quaker founder, George Fox to the list. He was almost always drunk, he was extremely judgemental, he violently distrupted non-Quaker Christian services and he even tried to convince Oliver Cromwell to invade Turkey and spread Quakerism by the sword.

[Unintentionally Blank]

Not being snarky, just genuinely curious - what devices did he design? I'm pretty sure he didn't 'design' the Apple 11e, but he marketed it. I know he didn't design the MacIntosh either.

Because he didn't carve an iPod from the ground, you think is contribution is worthless? :rolleyes:

You cannot sit at a computer, pick up a phone, or listen to portable music without experiencing something that was at least affected by something his company did. Really.

Mice, Guis, Large Storage in a small device with a method of selecting one from thousands efficiently, Computers designed not to die the day after the warrantee expired, phones that aren't a hot mess of buttons, music players the size of lozenges, the first commercially successful tablet. A well polished, pretty, device that is crazy easy to use, and easy to demonstrate...that is a hallmark of the things Steve's company has produced over the years. It's not any one lucky decision, it's thousands of good ideas, executed well. It happened by having a group of insanely intelligent people pull in one direction...the external appearance being: That direction was set by one person.

Steve Jobs did not 'simply market the ][e'. Saying it doesn't make it so, it just makes you sound like you haven't done your homework. The big question will be: will that group of insanely talented people be able to continue with someone else as the figurehead?

Of note to the thread, MANY successful things seem to derive from the motivations of single people. Ferrari, Porsche, Calvin Klein, Microsoft, Facebook, Ford, McDonalds, Ikea...many MANY successful things appear to have gotten there under the leadership of individual people. It doesn't mean Ray Krock flipped every one of those billions and billions of Big Macs. And in not submitting to 'Design by Committee', I suspect they all left a wake of offended people.

Personal experience has shown that if you ask someone's opinion, they'll give it to you, and it'll rarely help. When designing websites, I'd often get "It needs to be more blue", or "That should be different"...I found that things actually got done when, instead of asking "what do you think", it changed to "this is what you're getting".

Sounds assholish, but projects got done.

[bump]

To be sure. I've just finished reading Means of Ascent by Robert A. Caro which tells the story of how LBJ stole his election to the Senate from TX governor Coke Stevenson. Vote buying, voter intimidation, fraud in ballot counting, you name it. Also, he was an absolute dick to his wife. Screaming tantrums at subordinates. How that asshat ever became president is beyond me....
SS

I think you mean "How that asshat ever became vice-president...."

How he became president is clear as day, but how he became VP isn't.

[MichaelEmouse]

I think you mean "How that asshat ever became vice-president...."

How he became president is clear as day, but how he became VP isn't.

Maybe, like Rahm Emmanuel, he was good at politics through hook and crook and JFK wanted him both close to and under him.

[Gatopescado]

Ayrton Senna was an asshole, and a sissy too, if you ask me.

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Maybe, like Rahm Emmanuel, he was good at politics through hook and crook and JFK wanted him both close to and under him.I just assumed that Kennedy thought about LBJ the same way LBJ thought about J. Edgar: "I'd rather have him on the inside pi$$in' out that on the outside pi$$in' in."

And about RFK, I don't have anything to add other than it was a suprise to me to find out just what kind of of temperament he had. He always struck me as being phenomenally wimpy, which was about 180º out of kilter. He was a serious hard-a$$ and played serious hardball.

[SeldomSeen]

I think you mean "How that asshat ever became vice-president...."

How he became president is clear as day, but how he became VP isn't.

Quote: MichaelEmouse
Maybe, like Rahm Emmanuel, he was good at politics through hook and crook and JFK wanted him both close to and under him.

Well, he did win election in his own right, after serving out Kennedy's term, but I suspect MichaelEmouse got it right. Johnson was shrewd and very effective at swinging votes his way, although his means were often less than stellar. If he'd been subject to the scrutiny that holders of high office are today, he probably never would have been elected to national office in the first place.
SS

[SeldomSeen]

I would like to add the Quaker founder, George Fox to the list. He was almost always drunk, he was extremely judgemental, he violently distrupted non-Quaker Christian services and he even tried to convince Oliver Cromwell to invade Turkey and spread Quakerism by the sword.

Not challenging you on this, but do you have a cite? That seems pretty much at odds with everything I've read about Geo. Fox. Although I'm sure that as a religious leader his biography may have been sterilized a bit....wouldn't be the first time.
SS

[Reloy3]

I would nominate Beethoven - Master Composer but his personal life does smack of anal-cavityness. Took his (admitedly drunken and abusive) father's pension; would not call his brother by his name (because it was the same as his father's); claimed his mother was unfaithful, changed his birthdate, and said he was the bastard son of the Emperor; after his brother died, used his political connections to have his nephew, Karl, taken from his mother, locked him in a prison-like school, attempted to have the boy's mother arrested when Karl ran away to be with his grieving widowed mother, all leading to Karl's attempted suicide.

On top of that, he was boorish, dirty, bitter, smelly, drunk and altogether paranoid and unpleasant.

[JohnT]

Actually, he owned a newspaper, the Dearborn Independent, (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/ford1.html) and the reprinted said articles as the International Jew. Hella lot to apologize for.:dubious:

I also think Mr. Ford did a fair amount to popularize and distribute copies of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, in addition to his work with the Dearborn Independent.

[Malthus]

Emily Murphy was the first woman magistrate in Canada and the British Empire and was one of the "Famous Five," the group of five women whose lawsuit against the Government of Canada was responsible for getting women recognized as "qualified persons" able to sit in the Senate, establishing a crucial precedent both for women's rights in Canada and for constitutional law (the living tree doctrine).

She also published a series of increasingly fanatical editorials in which she argued that Blacks and especially Chinese were introducing marijuana into Canada in order to sap the white race and seduce white people into debauchery and moral weakness. She was almost single-handedly responsible for getting marijuana outlawed. It was to the point that many people, even at the time in the 1920s, remarked on her extreme degree of racism.

Heh I read a book written by her on the topic based on those articles called The Black Candle.

http://www.manybooks.net/titles/canuckjother10black_candle.html

Very interesting and bizzare stuff.

[Labrador Deceiver]

Tonight while playing bar trivia I learned that Andy Griffith broke his right hand on 4 different occasions by punching the wall during temper tantrums on the set of The Andy Griffith Show.

He is basically hated in the Wilmington, NC area.

[TreacherousCretin]

He is basically hated in the Wilmington, NC area.

Why?

[Eve]

I was trying to be with you, since I've known (and know of) a lot of assholes. But when you expounded on RFK I was like Hold up and whoa. When Robert was shot in the head, laying on the floor in the kitchen of that hotel, straining to hold his head up he asked, "Is everybody else alright?"
His assasination is what broke my cherry.
I was "around" when JFK was assasinated. And Marten Luther King. I was sickened and troubled. But I didn't "give up, and then be born again out of the ashes" until Robert was killed. A man who convinced his brother (the President) to back his pc rhetoric with substance.
I've read, "You can either paint with passion, or you can live with passion. But you can't do both." God bless those who disagreed.
I remember my mother saying "1960s Bobby Kennedy was all very well and good, but I remember earlier Bobby Kennedy, when he was Roy Cohn's lapdog, hunting down Commies and Jews and gays." RFK did whatever was politically expedient, and if it also happened to be the right thing, great.

That being said, I think the affair with Marilyn Monroe is an urban legend. He would never risk his political career for sex, unlike his brother.

Oh, and I don't know if anyone considers Coco Chanel "great" in the first place, but she was also a Nazi whore who should have been hanged after the war.

[Guinastasia]

Bing Crosby beat the living shit out of his kids. Bess Truman was a racist bitch.

[Labrador Deceiver]

Why?

Short version: He was a gigantic ass when he lived there. He abused almost every personal and professional contact he had around town. I honestly don't know of a single resident of that city who can say one nice thing about the guy.

[Annie-Xmas]

Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, is widely portrayed as a racist and eugenist by the anti-abortion crowd.

[Nava]

Not so much an asshole as a pain to be around sometimes, but José Antonio Samaranch (who was president of the International Olympic Committee for what seems like forever) was one of those hyperactive guys who happen to have found a job where they can work in hyperfocus. He slept very little and always wanted things for "the day before yesterday".

I read an interview with his wife where she said that separate bedrooms had been an essential factor in their marriage, because it allowed her to sleep; trying to share a bedroom with Mr "it's 3am and I just had the greatest idea ever" would have been a royal pain in the ass, not to mention eyes, ears, back, shoulders...

I've also heard talk that he was a womanizer, but if his wife didn't mind I don't see why should I.

[Nava]

Assholeishness doesn't negate the greatness. Then again, greatness doesn't excuse the assholeishness.

I kinda wonder about the "victims" of the these assholes. We all know/are related/worked with/are victims of some raging asshole somewhere sometime. But most of us don't have wander through society with daily reminders of how great society thinks the asshole you experienced is. My blood pressure just goes up thinking about going through that.

Shrug, the immense majority who knew my Gramps from Hell are divided in two groups: those who never saw his dark side, and who can gush about him for hours, and those who did, who will give me these sad-puppy looks and say something like "uh, you... you must know what he was really like, I guess?"

You learn to live with it; when the dark side is real extreme, those who haven't seen it wouldn't believe it exists, and that this great man they absolutely adore had it. Those who have encountered similar blotches before grow very efficient assholedars.

[CairoCarol]

Mother Theresa - friend of dictators, more interested in saving souls than providing medical care, and herself demanding top-of-the-line treatment when ailing. Or so I've heard.

[Eve]

Mother Theresa - friend of dictators, more interested in saving souls than providing medical care, and herself demanding top-of-the-line treatment when ailing. Or so I've heard.
Oh, well, that evil fanatical bitch--most of us don't consider her "great" in the first place.

[Sampiro]

Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, is widely portrayed as a racist and eugenist by the anti-abortion crowd.

Their dissing of her is ironic in a way because while she was a eugenist and would almost certainly be racist by modern standards she was also [punchline] anti-abortion. One reason she was so pro birth control was to end the need for abortions.

[Slithy Tove]

A too-long list of those whom we admire who were anti-Semitic: including Voltaire, US Grant, H. L. Menken, T.S. Elliot...

"So what exactly is a 'kike?'"

"Any Jewish gentleman who has just left the room."

[MichaelEmouse]

A too-long list of those whom we admire who were anti-Semitic: including Voltaire, US Grant, H. L. Menken, T.S. Elliot...

"So what exactly is a 'kike?'"

"Any Jewish gentleman who has just left the room."

Voltaire? Sure, he made fun of the Jewish religion but he also made fun of the Christian relition (the latter rather more so, I understand; he was a smartass). What did he say that was anti-semitic, as opposed to taking the piss out of a religion and being irreverant towards the reverential? I'm not saying it's not possible but I'd like to know what he said to that effect.

[Slithy Tove]

There's a fine line between taking the piss and vile hatred, and you and I migh draw it at different latitudes. A Google search of "Voltaire Jews" will yeild plenty of quotes by him that he must have known would stoke as many murderous hearts as tickle funny bones.

Of course Voltaire's first anti-allegiance was to Mother Church. But he blamed Judaism for creating the ugly mess in the first place.

[Paul in Qatar]

My husband works for NASA and has heard from more than a few people that Stephen Hawking is kind of a jerk.

As I understand it he has run off with (or rolled off with) several of his married nurses and aides, breaking up a number of marriages.

[threemae]

Dupuytren, a French surgeon who has a couple of diseases named after him, has the fairly catchy moniker: "the greatest of surgeons and the meanest of men."

http://radiographics.rsna.org/content/20/3/819.full

[Sampiro]

Frank Sinatra is an interesting case. By many accounts he had a near psychotic (if not psychotic) temper- attacked numerous people over the years for real, perceived or trivial offenses- and would carry a grudge for decades. There are numerous accounts of him flying off the handle on everybody from zillionaire studio executives and entertainers to room-service-waiters and restroom attendants. He was a world class bully even to his best friends and of course his friendships with known mobsters and murderers was well known. (One account I read said some of his greatest resentment came from the fact "Frank wanted to be a mob boss, mob bosses wanted to be Dean Martin".)

At the same time he was incredibly generous and often anonymously. He supported many down-on-their-luck friends and acquaintances and some people he didn't even know and paid for the funerals of several entertainers (Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, Bela Lugosi and Redd Foxx among others). He was way ahead of the curve when it came to race: he'd make jokes about Sammy Davis, Jr., when they were performing together that today would get him called every synonym for disrespectful racist you can think of, but he refused to perform at hotels (even mob owned hotels) that wouldn't allow Sammy Davis, Jr., to stay in the hotel , aand when Sammy was getting death threats from the KKK and even political pressure from the Kennedys for his relationship with Mai Britt Frank basically told everybody against the marriage to fuck themselves (pretty much in those words), served as best man at Sammy and Mai's wedding and was godfather to their children.

On the subject of Sammy Davis & Mai Britt, I read part of a JFK bio recently that is jawdropping. I knew about the Kennedy family pressuring him to postpone his interracial wedding until after the election due to Davis being a known supporter/fundraiser for the Kennedy campaign, but after the election when JFK learned Davis and Britt were attending a White House function for Civil Rights together he became furious, had a "damage control" parley to make sure he wasn't photographed with them in the picture, and almost refused to go into the same room as the couple. (Jackie, to her credit, was very upset with him for his attitude and shook their hands, though- because of her husband's handlers- no photographs were made.)

[matt_mcl]

Dupuytren, a French surgeon who has a couple of diseases named after him, has the fairly catchy moniker: "the greatest of surgeons and the meanest of men."

http://radiographics.rsna.org/content/20/3/819.full

Hee: "The most important of Dupuytren's writings is his Treatise on Artificial Anus..."

[FriarTed]

Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, is widely portrayed as a racist and eugenist by the anti-abortion crowd.

Actually, she's portrayed that way by her writings. But I will hand it to her- as far as I've been able to find out, she was anti-abortion & I've defended her as such to my fellow anti-abs.

[a35362]

According to this (http://xkcd.com/767/), Mr. Rogers was kinda a dick to his wife...

*applause*

[salinqmind]

Whenever I read this stuff, I think of the suffering spouse. I wish I could be more specific, but I remember reading about a starry-eyed fan arriving at some intellectual author's house (James Joyce? Eugene O'Neill?) for an interview, and saying to his wife words to the effect of how thrilled he was to actually be there, about to meet The Great Man. The Great Man's wife said, yes, he's done some great work, but you don't have to live with the bloody bastard.

[Mr. Excellent]

As I understand it he has run off with (or rolled off with) several of his married nurses and aides, breaking up a number of marriages.

How the heck . . . ?

I mean, sure, the man's a genius. And from his public appearances and writing, he clearly has a fine sense of humor - that'll carry you a fair way. But Dr. Hawking can't speak, absent technological assistance. Or move, more than a very little. I can imagine a lot of vices for a man in that position - some understandable, some less so - but womanizing seems rather a stretch.

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

How the heck . . . ?

I mean, sure, the man's a genius. And from his public appearances and writing, he clearly has a fine sense of humor - that'll carry you a fair way. But Dr. Hawking can't speak, absent technological assistance. Or move, more than a very little. I can imagine a lot of vices for a man in that position - some understandable, some less so - but womanizing seems rather a stretch.He's a celebrity, though. I read his ex-wife's book, and she said that Hawking got a lot of attention from his nurses and assistants. They treated him like a god, and he accepted it as his due. They got a power trip over taking care of, and controlling access to, somebody who is famous and brilliant. He and Jane divorced, and Hawking married one of his nurses.

I saw in the news a few years ago that Jane and their children had publicly accused Hawking's then wife of physically and mentally abusing him. There were some ugly rumors, and there was a police investigation, but Hawking denied all of it.

[studmuffin]

Albert Schweitzer, famous Nobel Peace Prize winner, was known to regard Africans as little more than drones and always depended on White European nurses to work in his Hospitals .

[Sampiro]

I saw in the news a few years ago that Jane and their children had publicly accused Hawking's then wife of physically and mentally abusing him. There were some ugly rumors, and there was a police investigation, but Hawking denied all of it.

Though police were very suspicious of his excuse that he got those bruises walking into a door.

[JWT Kottekoe]

Carl Sagan.

William Shockley, Nobel Laureate for invention of the transistor. They say John Bardeen completely changed fields in order to get away from Shockley. It worked out for him, since he went on to win his 2nd Nobel Prize for the theory of superconductivity. Intel and many other companies were started by people escaping from Shockley's management.

ETA: Oops, I didn't notice many additional posts, apologies if others have mentioned these two.

[China Guy]

Author and Poet Charles Bukowski had his moments. HIs poetry readings were famous for him getting drunk and then really getting into it with the crowd...altough this is somewhat understandable.

Babet Schoeder's documentary captures him being verbally and physically abusive to his girlfriend about 6 months befoe they were married. I mean stuff like "you stupid cunt" combined with kicking on the couch and what almost looked like it was going to become a nasty fight.

Bukowski had a very fucked up childhood, partially revealed in Factotum. He was devoted to his daughter.

[Typo Knig]

Carl Sagan.

William Shockley, Nobel Laureate for invention of the transistor. They say John Bardeen completely changed fields in order to get away from Shockley. It worked out for him, since he went on to win his 2nd Nobel Prize for the theory of superconductivity. Intel and many other companies were started by people escaping from Shockley's management.

ETA: Oops, I didn't notice many additional posts, apologies if others have mentioned these two.

I brought up Schockley, although I don't mind more specifics about his assholishness. IMO he was *that* bad.

Tell us about Sagan. The complaint that I, as an early career physicist in an entirely different area, heard about Carl was that he'd "gone Hollywood". I don't know anyone who worked with him. C'mon, JWT Kottekoe, spill! ;)

[JWT Kottekoe]

Tell us about Sagan. The complaint that I, as an early career physicist in an entirely different area, heard about Carl was that he'd "gone Hollywood". I don't know anyone who worked with him. C'mon, JWT Kottekoe, spill! ;)

I'd like to take back my comment about Sagan, since I cannot support it with a cite and we should give him the benefit of the doubt. I heard this from a colleague who had an unfortunate experience with him, but perhaps that was an isolated incident.

[Typo Knig]

This commitment to accuracy gets in the way of a lot of fun gossip. :(

[DragonAsh]

Probably doesn't quite reach the level of 'great', but Chevy Chase appears by all accounts to be universally hated by his peers. Watching the roast for him was downright uncomfortable at times.

Doesn't change the fact that Fletch was hilarious. The scene where he starts swinging 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' still cracks me up.