Motherfucking Windows you bastard piece of fuckety fuck!!!

[Pann]

:mad::mad::mad:

Project due tomorrow in an 8 am class. Working diligently trying to get everything done. Two computers, one running a compiler and one with a Word document. All of a sudden they both start shutting down WITH NO GODDAMN WARNING WHATSOEVER.

Then they both boot back up and I get the nice little note that windows had to restart the computer after installing updates.

Everything is gone!!! THere is not enough time to restart and get finished.

:mad::mad::mad:

What the fuck, microsoft. How in the hell is this the default behaviour? What idiot in Redmond thought this was a good idea? Do you people not live in the real world where people have deadlines they have to meet?

:mad::mad::mad:

Yeah, I know I should save often. Yeah I know you can turn off the automatic installation of updates. Truth is, I didn't think about it until now. You can bet your ass that the stupid fucking automatic updates is turned off now!

If only I could get my work back.:(:(

[Sierra Indigo]

After having lost all of my documents not once, not twice, but three times because I thought "I'll just wait until I've done xx to back everything up" before Windows had a catastrophic crash and required a full system restore...

I've still got no sympathy. It was my own dumbass fault for not backing up my docs and files, and SESO is a catechism that anyone using a computer should live by :)

[jjimm]

I learned the hard way to develop a 'nervous tic':

OK, finished that paragraph. [CTRL-S]

Hmm, thinking about what's the right word to put in here... [CTRL-S]

Scratching my balls. [CTRL-S]

Oh look! A badger! [CTRL-S]

Just gonna get myself a coffee... [CTRL-S] [Drag 'n' drop file to external disk]

Since I started doing this ten years ago, I haven't lost a thing (except when I've inadvertently overwritten a file with one of the same name, from which there is no fucking recovery, thanks a lot Bill Gates).

OP, depending on how important it is to you, remedial measures for your current problems: take out the computer's hard drive and plug it into the slave IDE port in a desktop (if it's an IDE disk), OR, particularly if it's a laptop disk, get one of those little disk mounting boxes from Radio Shack that turns your HD into a USB disk and recover the file that way.

ETA: for $5 per month there's now also this handy little backup tool from Google (http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/officeconnect.html).

[Pann]

I learned the hard way to develop a 'nervous tic':

OK, finished that paragraph. [CTRL-S]

Hmm, thinking about what's the right word to put in here... [CTRL-S]

Scratching my balls. [CTRL-S]

Oh look! A badger! [CTRL-S]

Just gonna get myself a coffee... [CTRL-S] [Drag 'n' drop file to external disk]

Since I started doing this ten years ago, I haven't lost a thing (except when I've inadvertently overwritten a file with one of the same name, from which there is no fucking recovery, thanks a lot Bill Gates).

OP, depending on how important it is to you, remedial measures for your current problems: take out the computer's hard drive and plug it into the slave IDE port in a desktop (if it's an IDE disk), OR, particularly if it's a laptop disk, get one of those little disk mounting boxes from Radio Shack that turns your HD into a USB disk and recover the file that way.

ETA: for $5 per month there's now also this handy little backup tool from Google (http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/officeconnect.html).

Thanks for the tip, but I don't think it's going to help get everything done before 8 am. Also, if I never saved anything (stupid, stupid stupid) it wouldn't be on the hard drive in any way, shape, or form anyway.

[jjimm]

I never saved anythingHoly shit, way worse than I thought. I have to concur with your parentheses. ;)

Best of luck man.

[Cheesesteak]

More tips... Save often, natch. Change the name after any major change, add a letter or number to the end. For shared files, like with a team, change the name immediately, have different names for each contributor. I only needed to overwrite the master file once to learn that one.

I also hate automatic updates and their stupid restarts. Always seems to hit when I have a hot deadline or urgent request that I can't put off.

[Typo Knig]

Not to mention that the auto updates slow the PC to a motherfucking crawl. And "unexpected results may occur" :rolleyes: Last week I tried to use Excel while an Excel update was (unknown to me) downloading. No warnings, Excel started sorta fine, but would not open files. Lost a DAY'S WORK TIME while the helpdesk got Excel AND Outlook :confused: fixed. Why in the sacred name of Turing does anyone anywhere pay money for insecure non-designed M$ crap?

[Musicat]

:mad::mad::mad:

Project due tomorrow in an 8 am class. Working diligently trying to get everything done. Two computers, one running a compiler and one with a Word document. All of a sudden they both start shutting down WITH NO GODDAMN WARNING WHATSOEVER.I'm certainly no fan of MS :rolleyes: , but what you describe could be a hardware error -- overheating, unreliable power source, whatever.

[Nava]

I'm certainly no fan of MS :rolleyes: , but what you describe could be a hardware error -- overheating, unreliable power source, whatever.

Ehr, no, he describes further down that it was automatic updates.

I hate those things, do Macs have a more reasonable way of dealing with updates?

[Revtim]

Is this like Windows 95 or something? I can't recall my PC not warning me about restarting for updates, with the option to delay it like an hour.

[BubbaDog]

Auto updating is one of the most evil of the MS inventions. Even if you don't lose any program data its a giant pain in the ass when the computer suddenly announces that whatever you are doing isn't worth shit and updates are starting now.

I finally changed my update status to "notify" and took it off full automatic.

It's nice that you have an option to configure for a less dangerous operating environment but the "permissions first" options should be the default and if you are lunatic enough to want full updates then you can reset it to full auto.

[Athena]

You worked for hours on something and never saved it?

I have no sympathy for you. There are a dozen different ways you could have lost your stuff, regardless of if you were using Windows, Mac, Linux, or any other electronic gizmo. The power goes out. The dog steps on the power strip and turns everything off (hey, it happened to me last week!). You spill coffee on your keyboard and it becomes completely unresponsive. You hit a wrong key and accidentally turn Word off. The monitor stops working and goes black. Zombies attack.

I can understand being pissed off that you lost your work, but I hardly see it as Microsoft or Windows fault. It's your own fault.

Also - how did you lose your Word doc? Did you turned off the autosave feature in Word? I can't remember the last time Word died unexpectedly and I didn't have an autosave copy available for recovery.

[Fear Itself]

Is this like Windows 95 or something? I can't recall my PC not warning me about restarting for updates, with the option to delay it like an hour.I agree. In my experience, Windows XP/Vista/7 never restarts the computer on its own for updates.

[MsWhatsit]

I agree. In my experience, Windows XP/Vista/7 never restarts the computer on its own for updates.

Windows XP did indeed restart on its own for updates. It would prompt you to install updates for a while, but then if you didn't accept, ultimately it would just do it on its own. Usually overnight in my case, so I'd leave the computer on and come back in the morning to find that it had rebooted with a cheerful little message about "I had to reboot to install updates!" or whatever. I turned it off eventually. After years of Windows use, I have the same nervous tic that jjimm describes (I've tried to Ctrl-S this post twice already, no lie) so I don't have to worry about losing documents, but it was still pretty annoying that the computer will ever reboot on its own without being prompted.

And no, to answer Nava's question, Macs do not do this. When OS X detects an update, it pops up the System Updates app, and you can choose to either install updates or not, and if you don't, it goes away until either another update arrives, or you specifically choose to open it and install updates. (For all I know, this is how Vista and 7 work too. The most recent Windows version I'm familiar with is XP.)

[Rhythmdvl]

I learned the hard way to develop a 'nervous tic':

OK, finished that paragraph. [CTRL-S]

Hmm, thinking about what's the right word to put in here... [CTRL-S]

Scratching my balls. [CTRL-S]

Oh look! A badger! [CTRL-S]

Just gonna get myself a coffee... [CTRL-S] [Drag 'n' drop file to external disk]


I rely on a 12-button mouse (and would heartily recommend one to anyone who works on a computer all day), and the easiest gesture--left nudging of the wheel--is set to save. The twitch is so bad (good) that almost any mouse movement yields a save with zero interrupt to hit Ctrl-S. I know it's a scintilla of improvement, but remember, never go against a Scintillian when a project is on the line!

Also, go in and change auto-save settings to 1-minute increments.

Also-also, thanks for the Google link.

[ZipperJJ]

I learned the hard way to develop a 'nervous tic':

OK, finished that paragraph. [CTRL-S]

Hmm, thinking about what's the right word to put in here... [CTRL-S]

Scratching my balls. [CTRL-S]

Oh look! A badger! [CTRL-S]

Just gonna get myself a coffee... [CTRL-S] [Drag 'n' drop file to external disk]


Do you hit CTRL-S when you're done writing a forum post? I do that all the time. I also do it when I'm altering a SQL stored procedure, which to "save" you are supposed to "execute" not CTRL-S.

[Bartman]

Windows XP did indeed restart on its own for updates. It would prompt you to install updates for a while, but then if you didn't accept, ultimately it would just do it on its own. Usually overnight in my case, so I'd leave the computer on and come back in the morning to find that it had rebooted with a cheerful little message about "I had to reboot to install updates!" or whatever. I turned it off eventually. After years of Windows use, I have the same nervous tic that jjimm describes (I've tried to Ctrl-S this post twice already, no lie) so I don't have to worry about losing documents, but it was still pretty annoying that the computer will ever reboot on its own without being prompted.

And no, to answer Nava's question, Macs do not do this. When OS X detects an update, it pops up the System Updates app, and you can choose to either install updates or not, and if you don't, it goes away until either another update arrives, or you specifically choose to open it and install updates. (For all I know, this is how Vista and 7 work too. The most recent Windows version I'm familiar with is XP.)

Nope Windows 7 explicitly does this as well. I left my new PC on last night with documents open... and this morning I was presented with a login screen and then a message that updates had rebooted my PC. not a big problem. I had saved everything. But 7 can and will shutdown regardless of current status in order to apply updates as its default behavior.

[Moonlitherial]

Nope Windows 7 explicitly does this as well. I left my new PC on last night with documents open... and this morning I was presented with a login screen and then a message that updates had rebooted my PC. not a big problem. I had saved everything. But 7 can and will shutdown regardless of current status in order to apply updates as its default behavior.

That's the end result but if you're sitting there working you get a window that says it needs to reboot to finish the installation and you have the option to delay it or manual reboot later.

Should you ignore the message it reboots itself 15 mins later.

[Nava]

That's the end result but if you're sitting there working you get a window that says it needs to reboot to finish the installation and you have the option to delay it or manual reboot later.

Should you ignore the message it reboots itself 15 mins later.

Yeah, and I don't know what's worse:

the programs who let the popup do its thing, so it pops up in the middle of whatever I'm doing aaaaaghgetthisthingoutofmyface! Oh, wait. *Clicks on 'remind me in 3 hours'*
or those which don't, so after 15 minutes the computer goes whooooosh and reboots.

The second ones, I guess, but damnit it's obnoxious in any case :p I'd like to have an option of "since I shut the computer down at least once a day, just run updates when I shut it down".

A lot of their updates work like that, I just can't see why don't they all. Yeah, there is people who like having the computer heating their room 24/7, but I'm not one of them, I'd like to be able to take advantage of the shut-downs.

[pulykamell]

That's the end result but if you're sitting there working you get a window that says it needs to reboot to finish the installation and you have the option to delay it or manual reboot later.

Should you ignore the message it reboots itself 15 mins later.

I haven't been on a Windows box for a number of years now, but I couldn't believe they would make this default behavior. That just sounds asinine to me.

[mhendo]

Start > All Programs > Windows Update

Change Settings

Important Updates > Check for updates but let me choose whether to download or install them.


Takes about 12 seconds.

[pulykamell]

Start > All Programs > Windows Update

Change Settings

Important Updates > Check for updates but let me choose whether to download or install them.


Takes about 12 seconds.

As the OP figured out. Doesn't help when it's set as default behavior and you don't know about it. My Mac does stupid shit that I have to turn off, too, at times, but automatically restarting your computer by default if you've left it alone at the wrong time would annoy me, too. I don't ever expect my computers to reboot unless I've explicitly given them permission to do so, (except perhaps during an OS installation) and I don't think that's an unusual expectation. Seriously, until I read through the end of this thread, I thought the OP was mistaken about something, and clicked a wrong button.

[jjimm]

I haven't been on a Windows box for a number of years now, but I couldn't believe they would make this default behavior. That just sounds asinine to me.This was the default behaviour when I first got W7 too. Dickwads.

[Morgyn]

Pann, I know it's too late now (long past 8:00 a.m.), but it's possible at least SOME of the work has been saved. You said you were working in Word? If you haven't altered the default settings, then Word automatically backs up what you're working on. It's called AutoRecover. Check your settings and see if that's on, and see where the file would be saved. If AutoRecover is on, you may also get the option to

So long as you saved the file at least once since you created it, there may be something for you to find. Check here (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/827099)for some more information on recovering lost Word files.

Good luck.

ETA: I always have AutoRecover turned off, because I find the longer the doc the slower Word gets, and because it's possible for it to corrupt the document. But I've also developed the Ctrl+S tic. Even if I haven't CHANGED anything, if it's been sitting longer than 5 minutes my fingers twitch and do it. I don't even have to think about it anymore.

[Athena]

Nope Windows 7 explicitly does this as well. I left my new PC on last night with documents open... and this morning I was presented with a login screen and then a message that updates had rebooted my PC. not a big problem. I had saved everything. But 7 can and will shutdown regardless of current status in order to apply updates as its default behavior.

That's the end result but if you're sitting there working you get a window that says it needs to reboot to finish the installation and you have the option to delay it or manual reboot later.

Should you ignore the message it reboots itself 15 mins later.

There is absolutely a setting in both XP and Windows 7 that will never reboot your system for updates without your consent. I have multiple machines with both, and often do not want updates because of the work I'm doing (I'm a software developer, and sometimes there's reasons I don't want the latest versions), and I never, ever, ever have had it reboot for updates on its own. I have no doubt there are settings that do what you have described, but if it's doing that, you need to change the update settings per mhendo's advice.

[jjimm]

Start > All Programs > Windows Update

Change Settings

Important Updates > Check for updates but let me choose whether to download or install them.On my W7 machine it's:

Control Panel > System and Security > Windows Update > Change Settings

I've chosen not even to let it download shit without my permission, as for some reason this often hogs my processor, as well as my connection speed.

[Blank Slate]

Wouldn't Windows prompt you about saving the open document before closing the application and rebooting?

[mhendo]

On my W7 machine it's:

Control Panel > System and Security > Windows Update > Change Settings
Same thing. It gets you to the same place, just by a slightly different route.

And i'm the same: no downloads or updates without my explicit permission. The main reason for this is that it almost always wants to do them just after i turn my computer on in the morning. I don't want to boot up in the morning, and then have to reboot again almost immediately, just for some updates. I usually run the updates just before i switch off for the night.

[mhendo]

Wouldn't Windows prompt you about saving the open document before closing the application and rebooting?
I would have assumed so, but turning off automatic updates is usually the first thing i do on a new computer, so i haven't seen what the actual behavior is in Windows 7.

[Doug K.]

As the OP figured out. Doesn't help when it's set as default behavior and you don't know about it.

That's only true if you blindly click "Next" when going through the initial setup. One of the setup screens explicitly asks if you want to turn on automatic updates.

Windows 7Screenshot (http://cdn.windows7themes.net/pics/windows-8-installation-screenshot-build-m3.jpg)

Windows XP Screenshot (http://www.qwertytutorials.com/software_tutorials/windows_xp/site_graphics/install_configure_3b.png)


I always pick "Ask me later" or "Not Now" as the case may be, then go in and change the settings at my leisure.

[pulykamell]

That's only true if you blindly click "Next" when going through the initial setup. One of the setup screens explicitly asks if you want to turn on automatic updates.

Windows 7Screenshot (http://cdn.windows7themes.net/pics/windows-8-installation-screenshot-build-m3.jpg)

Windows XP Screenshot (http://www.qwertytutorials.com/software_tutorials/windows_xp/site_graphics/install_configure_3b.png)


I always pick "Ask me later" or "Not Now" as the case may be, then go in and change the settings at my leisure.

Thing is, even if I clicked through that, I would just assume the computer automatically checks for updates, and then throw up a prompt saying "Yo, dude, found some patches for your crapware. Wanna install them?" Or, at the very most, download them behind the scenes, and then give me a prompt saying something to the effect of my updates being automatically downloaded and they will either install upon your next reboot or right now, if you click here. I just don't expect my computer to automatically reboot itself because I left it alone for 15 minutes.

[jjimm]

Same thing. It gets you to the same place, just by a slightly different route.On my version of W7 I don't have the option that you mentioned.

And I agree with pulykamell - "Automatic updates" does not, to the first-time user, indicate "I will restart your computer, force-quit all your apps and dump all open files without saving them, if you fail to respond to a nag prompt within an arbitrarily allotted time".

[MsWhatsit]

Yes, I was quite surprised the first time the computer rebooted without my permission. Why would you assume that enabling "automatic updates" means "allow reboots without permission"? I mean, obviously I shut that setting off after the first time it happened, but still, there's no reason for that to be the default. I am going to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of users do not, in fact, want their computer to reboot without permission, ever.

[Turek]

I mean, obviously I shut that setting off after the first time it happened, but still, there's no reason for that to be the default.

Microsoft knows best.

[Beware of Doug]

Stuff like this is part of why techies, engineers, etc., actually like Windows. It's electronic Darwinism.

[MsWhatsit]

Stuff like this is part of why techies, engineers, etc., actually like Windows. It's electronic Darwinism.

What does this mean? That the only people left using Windows at some undefined future point will be people who enjoy the experience of having to outsmart their own operating system in order to keep it from closing all of their apps without warning? "Survival of the masochists"?

[diku]

Yes, I was quite surprised the first time the computer rebooted without my permission. Why would you assume that enabling "automatic updates" means "allow reboots without permission"? I mean, obviously I shut that setting off after the first time it happened, but still, there's no reason for that to be the default. I am going to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of users do not, in fact, want their computer to reboot without permission, ever.

And those are the same user whose computers never get updated, then scream when their machine crashes because of the latest malware that takes advantage of a hole that had been fixed by updating. "But it should've done it automatically." It does, but this is part of it.

[MsWhatsit]

And those are the same user whose computers never get updated, then scream when their machine crashes because of the latest malware that takes advantage of a hole that had been fixed by updating. "But it should've done it automatically." It does, but this is part of it.

Yes. You are correct. This is the behavior we are discussing. And my point, which has not changed, is that it is ridiculous for this to be the default. Start having a nag screen pop up every 20 minutes for critical updates if you must, but don't just reboot the damn computer without asking. This is not a revolutionary concept.

[Greg Charles]

I've often said that Windows isn't a terrible OS. It's a mediocre OS with terrible default settings. Learning what those are and how to change them is a good investment of time.

Techies, engineers, etc.? They hate Windows with fiery passion.

[mhendo]

I've often said that Windows isn't a terrible OS. It's a mediocre OS with terrible default settings. Learning what those are and how to change them is a good investment of time.While the point about default settings has considerable merit, the bolded part is not simply a debatable opinion, it is literally and factually incorrect, and demonstrates either complete unfamiliarity or willful blindness, especially with regard to Windows 7.

[HardlySanguine]

Since I started doing this ten years ago, I haven't lost a thing (except when I've inadvertently overwritten a file with one of the same name, from which there is no fucking recovery, thanks a lot Bill Gates).
Just FYI, Shadow Copies have existed in the last couple iterations of Windows. If System Protection is turned on, previous versions of documents and folders can be saved and retrieved.

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/11130/restore-previous-versions-of-files-in-every-edition-of-windows-7/

[jjimm]

Thanks HardlySanguine, very useful!

[t-bonham@scc.net]

Frankly, if you are stupid (your word) enough to work for hours on something without ever saving a copy, you deserve to flunk the class. Especially since you mention a compiler, making me think it's probably a computer-related class. Computer programmers who never think about backup, security, etc.? -- We do NOT need any more of them. (Aren't they the types that gave us Windows in the first place?)

Oh, and this 'working on the project the night before it's due' -- another trait we don't need in our computer designers. It usually means they run out of time just before the due date, so they skimp on the testing phase -- so we customers get to do the debugging after we get the product. Yeah, we've had enough of that, too.

[Typo Knig]

These are management problems. Did the prof, or does corp management:

-Set policies and procedures for frequent saves and backups?
-Ensure saves/backups are logged?
-Ensure saves/backups are tested?
-Review logs?
-Set up in progress reviews to prevent shoving everything to the end?
-Have consequences if policies are not followed?
-And do they REALLY do all this, or do just enough to satisfy the occassional audit?

Sounds like the prof decided it's hard enough teaching a (presumably intro) programming class without setting up a complete and intrusive management environment, for which he did not have the staff or support. Corporate management often makes the same decision. Problem is sometimes the lone, tempremental artisan does better work faster tgan the theoretically correct management structure of thousands.

[bucketybuck]

I thought I had finally been pitted.:(

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

Are you a CS student? You mention running a compiler in the background. Let me let you in on a secret: do not use Windows for any CS assignment, unless it is absolutely required (i.e. a game development class, or something). Your life, and the lives of your lab assistants and lecturers will be much easier if you just switch to Linux.

[Greg Charles]

While the point about default settings has considerable merit, the bolded part is not simply a debatable opinion, it is literally and factually incorrect, and demonstrates either complete unfamiliarity or willful blindness, especially with regard to Windows 7.

I can't even understand the point you're trying to make. You don't agree that Windows is mediocre, but do you think it's great or terrible? In any case, "Windows is mediocre" is pretty clearly an opinion and not possible to be proven factually incorrect. I don't know what you mean by literally incorrect.

[mhendo]

OK, it's been less than a month, so i'm bumping this thread.

As i said earlier in the thread, the first thing i do when i install Windows is disable Automatic Updates. Instead, i set Windows to tell me when updates are available, but not to download anything without my permission.

After all the brouhaha in this thread, i decided to do a little experiment. I went into the Windows Update setting, and changed my settings to Install updates automatically (recommended).

This morning, when i turned my computer on, a little bubble popped up from my system tray telling me that Windows was beginning the process of automatically downloading and installing my updates. When i saw this notification, i opened Word and created a new document, typed some gibberish, and then just left it open without saving, to see if i would lose any information.

Well, a little while later, this (https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/mhender4/public_html/gen_images/comp_restart.gif) is what popped up on my screen. No sudden, unexpected shutdown. Just a little dialog box telling me that my computer needed to restart in order for the update process to finish, and that this would happen in 15 minutes unless i delayed the procedure or restarted the computer myself.

I have a regular, vanilla installation of Windows 7 Home Premium.

[Rhythmdvl]

And Word's autosave should have re-loaded the document had Windows gotten to the end of its countdown.

[jz78817]

I've often said that Windows isn't a terrible OS. It's a mediocre OS with terrible default settings. Learning what those are and how to change them is a good investment of time.

Techies, engineers, etc.? They hate Windows with fiery passion.

I'm an engineer and I'm fine with Windows. IME the only people who make the claim that you just did are either Apple-worshipers whose default answer to anything is "Get a Mac" and borderline autistic Linux trolls who can't see the fact that the OS is irrelevant if the software people want to run isn't available.

In short- I don't use an OS. I use the software that runs on the OS. OS X and Linux both are inadequate for me.

[friedo]

In short- I don't use an OS. I use the software that runs on the OS. OS X and Linux both are inadequate for me.

Clearly you should be using FreeBSD.

[Athena]

I'm an engineer and I'm fine with Windows. IME the only people who make the claim that you just did are either Apple-worshipers whose default answer to anything is "Get a Mac" and borderline autistic Linux trolls who can't see the fact that the OS is irrelevant if the software people want to run isn't available.

In short- I don't use an OS. I use the software that runs on the OS. OS X and Linux both are inadequate for me.

I can't agree with this enough. It doesn't matter to me if Linux and OS X are 100x better than Windows, plus clean my house, wash my clothes, and cook me dinner at the same time. The software I need to run to do my work on and the games I play at night to relax me are on the most part only available on Windows. I can't change unless I quit my job and find new hobbies. I'm not going to do that no matter how much of a Linux/OSX fanboy you are.

And the reality of the situation is that most other people are in the same boat, too. My mother asked me once about a Mac; I said "sure, get a Mac, but I can't support it, you'll have to learn a whole new OS, the Photo software you took ages to learn doesn't run on it, and you'll have to learn a new email program too." This isn't minor stuff to a 75-year-old woman who is not particularly technical, and "it just works" is Apple hoo-haw. It doesn't "just work" to people not familiar with Macs; I've learned that over and over when friends/relatives switch to Macs and then call me to figure out where Outlook is and why can't they find IE and where's the backspace key and where are the menus for their apps and why can't they close windows by clicking the top right corner?

And when it comes right down to it, these are computers we're talking about, not religions. Use what works for you and get on with your life.

[mhendo]

And Word's autosave should have re-loaded the document had Windows gotten to the end of its countdown.And this is exactly what happened.

After i made my previous post, i let the timer run down with Word still open, and Windows restarted the computer. After my desktop loaded, the first thing that happened was that Word fired up, and my document was right there, as an Autosaved document, with nothing lost.

[2square4u]

Based on previous experience, I was on mhendo's side in the analysis of "what happens at Windows updates" until just this morning. Unlocked my computer, started my normal checking-mail-and-webnews morning routine and after about 15 minutes, the computer just closed all my programs, logged off and gave me the well-known "Configuring Windows - do not shut down your computer" message. WTF??? I never saw any dialog box asking if I wanted to reboot NOW! or in ten minutes!

So, yes, it does happen (and yes, I've developed that Ctrl-S twitch over the years, too)

BTW, I'm running Win7 x64

[Senegoid]

I have a Pentium-V vintage box that's about 11 years old now, still running Winders 98. I don't recall that it's ever crashed, not even ONCE. (True, I only use it anymore for one legacy app that I can't easily run on newer boxes.) This box has never had a network card. I used to get on-line with a dial-up modem. (I use other newer mochines to get on-line now.)

A certain friend of mine tells keeps asking me when I'm going to dump the old wood-burner (his words). I expect I'll still be using this box for some time to come.

I use Linux for most of my casual work now, like spending my life on SDMB.

Older Winders systems: Sometime dumber is just better.

[Uncle Brother Walker]

This whole process of Automatic Updates is very insidious.

I subscribe to the Automatic Settings at my approval.

Start -> Control Panel -> Automatic Updates

Then I choose Notify Me But Don't Automatically Download Or Install Them

I usually try to make sure there are no changes to my computer. I'm just a bit paranoid about folks on my puter.

Today, I got the little yellow shield from MS that suggested automatic updates for me. Since it checked out, I downloaded them and restarted the computer.

After all that, and reading this thread, I decided to check my settings. Sure enough, MS auto updates had changed my setting from "Don't auto d/l" to "auto d/l at this specific time every day". Without my approval. I had to change it back manually and reboot and double check.

I don't like that. Just proves me right about the evil MS corporation. I'll have to remind myself to check each time I accept the auto updates.




I'm running Win XP home. with Service Pack 3.

[Stink Fish Pot]

I feel your pain. I think most of us feel your pain.

I felt your pain before reading this thread. Yesterday, this situation happened to me. Just decided to download, restart, and too bad if I didn't save everything. The best part was it happened at 2 AM, so I wasn't awake. But the computer was on, so off it went...

Time to change those damn defaults. MS is only partly to blame. I'm to blame for not changing my settings. Everytime it happened, I said "I need to change those settings", but I inevitably forgot. Not this time.

I'm doing it as I type this response.

[The Niply Elder]

Stuff like this is part of why techies, engineers, etc., actually like Windows. It's electronic Darwinism.

Nonsense. I'm an engineer and I absolutely abhor the abomination that is Windows.


Microsoft knows best.

Absolutely not. I'm willing to bet that the automatic update implementation in Windows must cost our economy billions of dollars every year due to lost work, lost productivity, etc.

I've made triple-sure that Auto Updates were set to manually download and install them, only to have some occasional update literally change the settings of the Auto Update control panel surreptitiously behind my back, then later updates causing lost work.

Some people are unaware of how many engineering programs work, but a lot of the analysis, simulation and software compiling programs work in-memory, and they are left to work for hours, days and weeks on end sometimes. There is no method to save your work in the mean time. In such cases, Microsoft's ineptitude causes the problems we see demonstrated in this thread.

In fact Windows is demonstrably inferior operating system when it comes to unleashing the raw power of the computer. I have done the benchmarks myself with several of the engineering softwares we use. It's simply inferior. That's the stone-cold hard fact of the matter; it's a demonstrable fact, repeatable by any competent engineer. And finally when it comes to stability, security and usability, Windows all come in last place. Yes, even Windows 7.

Fundamentally speaking, in a well-engineered operating system, there is no reason why an update should require a restart, with very few exceptions. The fact of the matter is that Windows' feature called Windows Side-by-Side is the most horrific piece of garbage unleashed upon humankind. Go ahead, if you have Vista or 7 and take a look at the size of your C:\Windows\WinSXS directory. That what you see there is a trashcan, a dumpster, a landfill that is permanent, with no method of being cleaned up, ever. In there is every piece of outdated system files, that have been replaced by a new copy sent through Auto Updates. Just in case it's not perfectly clear of what I'm talking about here, the old, vulnerable, insecure, buggy, infested system files all reside here cozily, awaiting for any app you have installed to call them up, circumventing the newest (supposedly fixed) system file. After two years of using Vista this WinSXS directory punched in at 25GB, while the original size of Vista by itself weighs in at 17GB.

So right in there you have the "quality" engineering spewed out by Microsoft.

In the end all this means is that whenever Microsoft pushes new updated system files, it requires a restart, because Microsoft engineers cannot figure out what impact there will be if they do an "on the fly" shutdown/restart of system services and components.

[The Niply Elder]

Are you a CS student? You mention running a compiler in the background. Let me let you in on a secret: do not use Windows for any CS assignment, unless it is absolutely required (i.e. a game development class, or something). Your life, and the lives of your lab assistants and lecturers will be much easier if you just switch to Linux.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. :D

[The Niply Elder]

No sudden, unexpected shutdown. Just a little dialog box telling me that my computer needed to restart in order for the update process to finish, and that this would happen in 15 minutes unless i delayed the procedure or restarted the computer myself.

I have a regular, vanilla installation of Windows 7 Home Premium.

Right.

And pray tell, what would have happened if let's say you are employed by a company, and such a company might have "team meetings" and "staff meetings" and "lunch" and fancy things of this sort? What would have occurred had you to attend such an event while Windows pooped up this dialog box?:dubious:

[RaftPeople]

This auto update nuked me a few times before I realized what was going on.

I have a simulation that I run sometimes for days or weeks at a time - kind of annoying to wake up in the morning, check the progress and realize it's rebooted.

[RaftPeople]

I'm an engineer and I'm fine with Windows. IME the only people who make the claim that you just did are either Apple-worshipers whose default answer to anything is "Get a Mac" and borderline autistic Linux trolls who can't see the fact that the OS is irrelevant if the software people want to run isn't available.

There are actually lots of people in between that have many years of experience with all kinds of different environments and operating systems and can appreciate the pros and cons of all of the OS's you listed.


In short- I don't use an OS. I use the software that runs on the OS. OS X and Linux both are inadequate for me.

I use an OS.

I also use applications.

And, as I perform some tasks in one OS, I am often aware that the same task can be performed much more easily in some other OS, or isn't even required at all due to different design decisions. Windows isn't bad, but it has some real weaknesses.

[mhendo]

Right.

And pray tell, what would have happened if let's say you are employed by a company, and such a company might have "team meetings" and "staff meetings" and "lunch" and fancy things of this sort? What would have occurred had you to attend such an event while Windows pooped up this dialog box?:dubious:

Exactly what i said. Read the post i made a few posts after the one you quoted.

It would have restarted, and my Word document would have popped back up, just like it did in my test. I would have returned to my computer to find the document Autosaved and open on my computer. Which is exactly what happened on my own computer.

Furthermore, i'm not retarded enough to leave my computer for lunch or a meeting without saving my work. Are you?

[The Niply Elder]

Exactly what i said. Read the post i made a few posts after the one you quoted.

It would have restarted, and my Word document would have popped back up, just like it did in my test. I would have returned to my computer to find the document Autosaved and open on my computer. Which is exactly what happened on my own computer.

Furthermore, i'm not retarded enough to leave my computer for lunch or a meeting without saving my work. Are you?

Ah, yes. I understand. If Word is all you are using, then the auto-recover feature should have you set. The problem crops up, as I pointed out, if one is running some resource-intensive professional program that runs for an extended period of time and the save feature is not available mid-operation, and the operation itself cannot be interrupted without data loss. Which is what Windows does. All. The. Time.

[RaftPeople]

Exactly what i said. Read the post i made a few posts after the one you quoted.

It would have restarted, and my Word document would have popped back up, just like it did in my test. I would have returned to my computer to find the document Autosaved and open on my computer. Which is exactly what happened on my own computer.

Furthermore, i'm not retarded enough to leave my computer for lunch or a meeting without saving my work. Are you?

What if you are retarded enough to use windows to run simulations for days or weeks at a time? Autosave doesn't really help a retard in that case, does it?

[mhendo]

What if you are retarded enough to use windows to run simulations for days or weeks at a time? Autosave doesn't really help a retard in that case, does it?It doesn't, but someone that retarded should know well enough to change the settings in Windows Update.

I remember back in about 2003 there were advice articles on the internet with titles like, "The first 10 things you should do after you install Windows," and even then one of the top recommendations was to change the settings in Windows Update.

I can understand forgetting to do it when you first get the computer, but surely you'd look into it after the first time it happened. Windows seems to need to apply a new update every week or so, and so even if you forget to change Windows Update initially, the first time your computer restarts without warning should be your clue to go in and change the settings.

As others have argued, it would be better if the default setting were "Tell me when updates are available, but don't download or install them," but it isn't. This problem, however, is trivially easy to avoid.

[galen ubal]

Ah, yes. I understand. If Word is all you are using, then the auto-recover feature should have you set. The problem crops up, as I pointed out, if one is running some resource-intensive professional program that runs for an extended period of time and the save feature is not available mid-operation, and the operation itself cannot be interrupted without data loss. Which is what Windows does. All. The. Time.


....what the hell kind of program, professional or not, has to run for an extended period of time, has no ability to save in the middle, and cannot be interrupted without data loss?

Sounds to me like you're cursing out the wrong programmers...

[Vinyl Turnip]

....what the hell kind of program, professional or not, has to run for an extended period of time, has no ability to save in the middle, and cannot be interrupted without data loss?


Well, you're obviously not a professional computer user if you've never run a "catastrophic system failure" simulator.

[jjimm]

....what the hell kind of program, professional or not, has to run for an extended period of time, has no ability to save in the middle, and cannot be interrupted without data loss?

Sounds to me like you're cursing out the wrong programmers...Not necessarily. I've had seriously complex Excel spreadsheets that took up to two hours to finish their calculations. And hosed all other programs while they did it.

A lot of graphics rendering behaves like this too.

[Nava]

....what the hell kind of program, professional or not, has to run for an extended period of time, has no ability to save in the middle, and cannot be interrupted without data loss?

Sounds to me like you're cursing out the wrong programmers...

Half the quantum chemistry programs I used in graduate school... no, I don't think their programmers were particularly good. And then there were those nifty excel/access datachecks, the ones I got permission to run at home because simply the ctrl-Hs I had to do in Word before being able to load the files in a workable state took over four hours...

[BigT]

I personally think the entire problem is the Saving concept, something that is fundamentally unintuitive to humans. It's not how our brain works, and it's not how things work in real life. And, if I remember correctly, Mac OS X Lion is pushing towards autosave, after doing so on mobile for a while. And Microsoft's Windows 8 is playing catchup on this regard.

And, yes, Windows Side By Side, even if it were Windows's only mistake, would be enough reason to say Windows is mediocre at best. It's an actual bonified disk leak. How can you design something like that without also designing a way to remove unneeded files, let alone deliberately making it near impossible?

[needscoffee]

Sometime last week, Windows Updates secretly reset my laptop to automatically download and install updates, neither of which I ever allow it to do. I closed the lid to hibernate it, and when I opened it the next day, it had updated and rebooted itself. Fortunately I had saved everything.

[RaftPeople]

It doesn't, but someone that retarded should know well enough to change the settings in Windows Update.

I remember back in about 2003 there were advice articles on the internet with titles like, "The first 10 things you should do after you install Windows," and even then one of the top recommendations was to change the settings in Windows Update.

I can understand forgetting to do it when you first get the computer, but surely you'd look into it after the first time it happened. Windows seems to need to apply a new update every week or so, and so even if you forget to change Windows Update initially, the first time your computer restarts without warning should be your clue to go in and change the settings.

As others have argued, it would be better if the default setting were "Tell me when updates are available, but don't download or install them," but it isn't. This problem, however, is trivially easy to avoid.

That is exactly the point - the default setting is poor.

[Typo Knig]

That is exactly the point - the default setting is poor.

Not only is the default setting exactly wrong, but Microsoft will of its own volition change the setting back to the wrong one without confirming or even reporting it. You do not control your computer, Microsoft does.

[galen ubal]

Huh. Hadn't known about some of those programs. I guess the market is small enough that they can get away with it - and those who need those programs, really need them, and thus will put up with their quirks. And I agree that the default setting has its faults. Still, I suspect that many who complain about losing work do to not saving, are the same people who wouldn't do the updates unless their hand were forced - and complain about getting caught by vulnerabilities that had been patched, but hadn't been patched on their computers because they hadn't done the updates.
However, Microsoft has heard your cries in the wilderness, (http://www.extremetech.com/computing/104999-windows-8-will-not-automatically-patch-and-restart-your-pc-while-playing-wow) and will be changing the way the update-restart cycle will work in Windows 8.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Not only is the default setting exactly wrong, but Microsoft will of its own volition change the setting back to the wrong one without confirming or even reporting it. You do not control your computer, Microsoft does.

I'm still running Vista, and I've never experienced that.

I fight bought a computer with Vista on it immediately after that version of of Windows was released. Within two days it stopped working -- not because of any mechanical problems, but because the automatic update had downladed a buggy driver. Once I got that fixed I changed the update setting to "Don't download a fucking thing, and I will check once a week or so to see if there's anything I need," and I have never regretted it.

[Finagle]

This morning, when i turned my computer on, a little bubble popped up from my system tray telling me that Windows was beginning the process of automatically downloading and installing my updates. When i saw this notification, i opened Word and created a new document, typed some gibberish, and then just left it open without saving, to see if i would lose any information.

Well, a little while later, this (https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/mhender4/public_html/gen_images/comp_restart.gif) is what popped up on my screen. No sudden, unexpected shutdown. Just a little dialog box telling me that my computer needed to restart in order for the update process to finish, and that this would happen in 15 minutes unless i delayed the procedure or restarted the computer myself.

I have a regular, vanilla installation of Windows 7 Home Premium.

This is a very nice user interface, assuming you haven't just stepped out for a 16 minute coffee break. This would have been a more instructive experiment if after getting the message, you simulated going on a 15 minute errand and then checked to see if your file had been saved before Windows rebooted.

Before I discovered how to turn off automatic updating, I would come into work in the morning and find my machine had mysteriously shut itself down overnight, so if I were in the process of debugging or coding something, I'd have to restore the whole state of my work environment before I could get any work done. It really is a terrible default to ever allow a machine to unilaterally shut itself down, even if it does give you a 15 minute warning.

[mhendo]

This is a very nice user interface, assuming you haven't just stepped out for a 16 minute coffee break. This would have been a more instructive experiment if after getting the message, you simulated going on a 15 minute errand and then checked to see if your file had been saved before Windows rebooted.If you'll look at the subsequent post that i made, you'll see that i did exactly that.

I allowed the computer to restart itself, while leaving my Word document open on the desktop and without saving the document. When the computer restarted, the first thing that happened was that Word fired up and loaded the document that i had been working on. The loaded version was the autosaved version, and it contained all the information that i had typed into it. I lost nothing.

[The Niply Elder]

If you'll look at the subsequent post that i made, you'll see that i did exactly that.

I allowed the computer to restart itself, while leaving my Word document open on the desktop and without saving the document. When the computer restarted, the first thing that happened was that Word fired up and loaded the document that i had been working on. The loaded version was the autosaved version, and it contained all the information that i had typed into it. I lost nothing.

Yes, that's nice, but you have to realize that there are thousands of Windows apps that do not have any sort of auto recover feature built in. Mainly because it's really difficult for developers to write code to handle how to save current data at any random point in time that any outside entity (Windows itself) might feel like destroying at any random line of code being executed.

At any rate, just because you typed "asdf asdf" into a Word doc, Windows auto restarted itself and after the whole ordeal your "asdf asdf" survived intact is irrelevant.

Also, as mentioned upthread and confirmed by multiple users, even if you are a diligent and careful Windows user, Microsoft will change your update settings through updates themselves. If this hasn't happened to you, it only means that you aren't observant enough to notice these changes.

In any case, it sounds like you are only familiar with Windows and nothing else,and a pretty light Windows user at that. Moral of the whole story is that in a well-designed and well-engineered operating system software updates do not require a restart. Windows is none of this so here we are.

Fundamentally all of this is caused by the Windows Side By Side feature as I mentioned upthread. It defies explanation the reason for the design decisions taken when this feature was implemented, and if you don't understand much about computers and programming, it's difficult to explain accurately what it is. "Cancer" and "built-in Trojan" are fairly accurate though.

[Gary Kumquat]

In any case, it sounds like you are only familiar with Windows and nothing else,and a pretty light Windows user at that. Moral of the whole story is that in a well-designed and well-engineered operating system software updates do not require a restart. Windows is none of this so here we are.

Considering I've got a Masters degree in Computer Science, and 20 years career working in IT, developing software/designing deployments of hardware for environments including VAX, AIX, AS/400, BSD, Windows, Mac OS, various flavours of Unix and some really quite weird legacy shit, I like to think that I qualify as reasonably conversant on matters OS.

Windows is alright. Some nasties in it, for sure, but nothing that isn't well recorded, and usually easy to work around. Even some of the more questionable default behaviour actually tends to work ok for some more common install environments. A lot of home users don't know shit about patches and updates, and these days there's very good security reasons to err on the side of just installing and rebooting. See also SME business environments. Most of the defaults in Windows are pretty much defined for such markets.

One thing I am curious about though. Just what is this well designed OS that never requires a reboot for an update? There's some nifty utilities for minimising required reboots, but the best one I've seen (ksplice) only worked for 88% (http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/ksplice-gives-linux-users-88-of-kernel-updates-without-rebooting-20090716/) of updates.

As for the OP...sorry bud, but self inflicted.

[mhendo]

Yes, that's nice, but you have to realize that there are thousands of Windows apps that do not have any sort of auto recover feature built in. Mainly because it's really difficult for developers to write code to handle how to save current data at any random point in time that any outside entity (Windows itself) might feel like destroying at any random line of code being executed. Look douchebag, i recognize that. But one of the OP's own problems was in Word, so i just ran a little experiment. I never claimed that it was the be-all-and-end-all on the matter.

I did it simply because people in this thread were claiming that, with updates set to run automatically, the computer would (1) restart without warning and (2) lose work done in MS Word. Well, when i set updates to run automatically on my computer, two things happened to contradict that statement: (1) the computer was not shut down without warning, and (2) in Word at least, no information was lost.

I never claimed that this experiment proved that Windows is perfect. I did it simply to satisfy myself about the issue of immediate shutdown and losing work in Word, and thought people might be interested in the result.
Also, as mentioned upthread and confirmed by multiple users, even if you are a diligent and careful Windows user, Microsoft will change your update settings through updates themselves. If this hasn't happened to you, it only means that you aren't observant enough to notice these changes.Huh?

The only times my update settings have changed is when i changed them myself, for this experiment. I would have noticed if they had changed themselves, because the way the computer updated would have changed. I've had this Windows 7 box for 2 years, and every time it has needed to update, it has given me a little pop-up bubble from the system tray telling me that it needs updates. I've observed these perfectly well, and on no occasion has it changed the update settings on my computer.

I'm not arguing that it never happens to anyone, but it hasn't happened to me despite your asinine suggestion that i'm just too unobservant to have noticed.
In any case, it sounds like you are only familiar with Windows and nothing else,and a pretty light Windows user at that. Moral of the whole story is that in a well-designed and well-engineered operating system software updates do not require a restart. Windows is none of this so here we are.Yeah, i'm only familiar with Windows, and only a "light Windows" user.

If by "light Windows" you mean running, in addition to the usual email/browser/word processing programs, a variety of software from Adobe CS4, GIS software, video encoders, an Apache/PHP/MySQL setup for web development and CMS testing, and a whole bunch of other software that most of my friends don't have on their computers.

I've never claimed to be a computer science PhD or a programmer or an uber-power user who runs compilers for hours on end, or who spends most of his life in the command line, but i use the command line periodically and i ask more of my computer than most of my friends do of theirs. I'm not someone who turns on his computer to just do email, listen to music, and write a few letters.

And as for only being familiar with Windows, i guess that's true if you don't count the 27" iMac on my desk at work, the Macbook Air my wife uses and that i sometimes help her with, and the Linux installations that i dual-boot on my home desktop and on my netbook.

Apart from those things, you're right on the mark.Fundamentally all of this is caused by the Windows Side By Side feature as I mentioned upthread. It defies explanation the reason for the design decisions taken when this feature was implemented, and if you don't understand much about computers and programming, it's difficult to explain accurately what it is. "Cancer" and "built-in Trojan" are fairly accurate though.I'm well aware of what WinSXS is. It's one of the first things i discovered after i made the jump to Windows 7 (i skipped Vista).

I also happen to agree that it's a shitty system. But it's a shitty system within what is otherwise a very stable and usable and functional and powerful operating system.

[Quartz]

Since the OP mentioned that there were two PCs, I'm going to guess that they weren't his. So the update policy was probably set by the school or university, and could not be changed.

However, the reboot can be stopped if you're quick:

Click Start, Programs, Accessories, Command Prompt, and type shutdown -a and press Enter.

I believe that for particularly important updates, Microsoft can override local settings. The only way around this is to disable the Windows Update service entirely.