Post here if Creationism turns you off to Christianity

[Ben]

This is the much-needed counterpoint to WildestBill's thread in which he asks people if evolution turned them away from God. So:

Does the existence of "creation science" make you less likely to be a Christian? Did it turn you away from Christianity?

In my case it definitely did so, if only indirectly. A big part of the reason I left Christianity is because I got sick of all the lies and hypocrisy, and creationism is, of course, part and parcel of that.

-Ben

[The Tim]

Creationism wasn't my biggest problem with Creationism. The moral problems with most forms Christianity are enough to turn me off before the scientific problems.

[The Tim]

That second Creationism should be Christianity. I'm just a damned tool.

[pantom]

Hypocrisy. That was it. Creationism had nothing to do with it, since at the time I made the decision, I'd never actually met anyone other than Jehovah's Witnesses who believed in the Genesis story.
The SDMB and the constant battling over Creationism here has come as a bit of a shock.

[Zulema]

Back when I considered myself a Christian I always believed that God created the earth and he created whatever forces were needed to start evolution. I never believed that the story of Adam and Eve was anything other than fiction. A story created to help people in a less scientific time understand sin? where people came from? how cruel God is?
that snakes can talk? Who knows, I can rarely tell what the hell point anyone's trying to get across in these Bible stories.

Questions about when or how humans arrived on Earth did not affect my faith in any way. If I had ever belonged to a religion that really insisted that everyone believe in Creationism it could have been more of a deciding factor for me.

[Tymp]

Nothing turned me away from Christianity. I am simply unable to accept on faith even the most basic tenants of that religion.

Never have I thought of Creationists as representative of Christians or Christianity. This is because of my constant exposure to remarkable people who happen to be admirably sensible Christians.

The Tim: Your mistake gave me a good excuse for a chuckle.

Creationism doesn’t put me off Creationism – it’s the bloody Creationists!

heeheeheehee!!

I’m far too easily amused.

[SisterCoyote]

Creationism had (and has) nothing to do with my decision to leave Christianity. Most Christian Creationists, OTOH... :rolleyes:

[meara]

No Christians I grew up with believed Creationism, so that certainly had little effect on my beliefs.

It was just the whole package that was hard to swallow. Way too arbitrary. If Jesus was God, what exactly was he killing himself for again? And what kind of supreme being gives a crap about things like gay sex, eating beef but not pork, sacrificing animals, etc. If that's all for real, then it's time to start searching for God's God and establishing a court of appeals.

Speaking as a game designer, I'm always struggling to get my AI-driven NPCs to have personalities of their OWN, not to just blindly follow my rules. I think it's awesome when they innovate and totally surprise me, and I've got to hope that if there's really a God out there, he feels the same way, preferring his creations to think for themselves and amuse him with the novelty!

[betenoir]

If I really believed that Creationism was synonymous with Christianity- and there seem to be plenty of Christians who insist that it is- then yes it would turn me off.

[Phobos]

Fundamentalists detract from Christianity, IMHO.

[El_Kabong]

Dunderheaded views such as blind belief in Genesis certainly put me off evangelical Christianity, as that seems to be the branch upon which most Biblical literalists reside.

For the rest, within Christianity can be found some reasonable moral guidelines, but I happily reserve my free will to accept or reject those aspects that come across as pointless, silly or just plain wrong.

[big_yellow_kingswood]

When I quit religion when I was 12, it was purely cause of how stupid I felt it was. (note, that's just a personal opinion I had when I was 12, it's not an attack on anyone's beliefs)

Since then, anytime I've become involved in any sort of discussion on christianity the person always seems to have a creationist viewpoint. I don't know if that's because I'm surrounded by creationists or because creationists are the sort to start such conversations (I suspect the latter - proper christians are more of the live-and-let-live variety, pretty much by definition).

[Homebrew]

The attempt to present the Bible as literally and historically accurate and as the divine Word of God is part of fundamentalist Christianity. It is not the only way people can draw understanding and benefit from the scriptures and it is not a central idea within all denominations.

I grew up in a Pentecostal Church of God congregation. That is very evangelical, fundamentalist sect. Creationism as part of the fundamentalist view in totality did lead me to reject Christianity for many years.

However, age and deeper understanding (at least I hope I've gained some wisdom over time) have led me to realize that are spiritual nuggets within the Bible. It just takes a little mining to get to them sometimes. However, the Bible is not the exclusive source of spiritual wisdom.

Although I attend a Christian church, I don't self-identify myself as Christian. I think that is partly because I don't want to use a term for myself that the FCs of the world use for themselves. I am afraid the word "Christian" has become so tainted by the fundamentalists that someone will associate me with them by the use of the label.

[Spiny Norman]

- I was firmly agnostic long before I heard that anyone took Creationism seriously. 10 years ago, I honestly had no idea that it was a hot debate subject anywhere (I'm non-US, as you probably know).

For me, the entire debate has been interesting to follow as a course in science methodology, not much else.

S. Norman

[Polycarp]

Strangely enough, Creationism, or Creationists either, have not turned me off to Christianity. (This is news? :rolleyes: )

On the other hand, the insistence that "this is a mandatory piece of the pie, to be believed despite evidence pointing to the contrary" is the hallmark of people with self-imposed blinders -- and a demand that one not use the brain one has devoted to God's service. Ergo, I get very frustrated with that POV. As evidenced by my recent "Wild Bill hiccup" over in the Pit. ;)

To be frank, I am a Creationist in the dictionary use of the term (y'listenin', Gaspode?). I believe in the existence of a God Who created everything.

However, I'm firmly convinced that the Universe He created gives firm evidence of the techniques He used in doing that Creation, e.g., the Big Bang, inflationary early-cosmology, phylogenetic evolution, etc.

For the record, which I'm beginning to sound like a broken one of on this topic, Genesis 1 is a myth. A reading of Joseph Campbell or any of Freyr's posts or my own on the topic would make it clear we're not speaking of truth value but literary genre. It's a simplistic account of God's work useful for drumming home the essential facts the author of that chapter felt to be important: God created. By His Word. In sequence. And called it good. The whole thing is wrapped in a repetitive stylistic device reminiscent of the Three Bears -- just as you know that whatever Goldilocks finds is gonna come in threes, with the parent bears' possessions too much one way or the other, but the baby bear's thing being just right -- and if you've ever read that to a preschooler, you know how much fun they have reciting that bit along with you -- so you know that when the author gets to the Tyrannosaurus, he's gonna say, "And on the Nth day, God said, 'Let there be tyrannosaurs,' And there were tyrannosaurs. And God saw the tyrannosaurs, that they were good, and the evening and the morning were the Nth day." The six-days bit was an attempt by the (Jewish) author to stress the importance of the Sabbath, by making it an essential element of Creation. If Chaim or Zev or Izzy wanders in, they can speak to that issue, because it's of vital importance to Judaism then and now. The point to having the story take six days was not to describe how long God took in doing creation -- He could have wrapped the whole thing up in a nanosecond if He chose -- but to make clear that the Sabbath was an integral part of what He created.

Sidebar for a joke:
"You know, God didn't create the world in six days."
"No? What did He do, then?"
"Well, he goofed off for five and a half, and then pulled an all-nighter."

And, JFTR, most major denominations of Christianity do not expect adherence to the six-day literalist interpretation -- even the SBC and Assemblies of God don't require it, although many of their leaders believe it, and the Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, and a number of others find the advocacy of the theory by outspoken conservative Christians to be an embarrassment to their attempt to focus on commitment to God as known through Jesus, and fulfillment of His expectations to the creation He entrusted us with and to one's fellow man. And that, IMHO, is the point to be stressed by anyone who calls himself or herself Christian, not an attempt to sell some particular interpretation of a Bible passage.

[vanilla]

I was reading my son abook the other night.
The story was about a grasshopper who was taking a walk.
He came upon some beetles who were holding up signs saying Morning Rules! We Love Morning!
Grasshopper said he loved morning too, so they made hima member of their club.
Then, however, he mentioned he also liked afternoon and evening.
The beetles fell silent, and became angry; how dare he! then threw him out of their club casue he ddin't beleive exactly like they did.
I realized this was a good analogy of christianity.

[Spider Woman]

within Christianity can be found some reasonable moral guidelinesThis is true. It seems that people at the top of the power structures of Christianity have twisted those guidelines to their own purposes at different times during history, The Spanish Inquisition (http://search.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?q=Spanish+Inquisition&kl=XX&pg=q&Translate=on&search.x=36&search.y=8) being just one example.

Creationism doesn't turn me off to Christianity. I find the abuse of power within its ranks, and of most other organized religions, to be a big turn-off. And I can't, in all honesty, say that I can believe in an unseen deity even if there were no such abuses.

[bungie_us]

A belief in Creationism has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with fear. It's all about not liking the idea that the universe is too big and complex to directly comprehend. So instead you package it up in a little box called Genesis, or whatever creation myth works for you, and call it reality.

It's not about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other religion specifically. It's about being scared of the dark.

[Navigator]

Originally posted by Phobos
Fundamentalists detract from Christianity, IMHO.

There are fundementalists of all stripes, sadly. Within, and without Christianity. Ya might even find some naturalist fundementalists...

So in reading this thread, and Wild Bill's thread with the contra POV. CvE debates do little to hinder or gather Christians.

Fascinating...

[Ben]

Originally posted by Navigator
Originally posted by Phobos
Fundamentalists detract from Christianity, IMHO.

There are fundementalists of all stripes, sadly. Within, and without Christianity. Ya might even find some naturalist fundementalists...

Of course there are. But the question of the moment is what turns people off from Christianity. Anyway, it's not like the President is a Wiccan fundamentalist ranting about how Christianity isn't a real religion...


So in reading this thread, and Wild Bill's thread with the contra POV. CvE debates do little to hinder or gather Christians.

Fascinating...

On the contrary, it appears to me that many of the replies run like this:

1. Creationism wasn't an issue because I hadn't heard of it while I was a Christian. (Clearly this doesn't mean that CvE "does little to hinder or gather," since creationism wasn't present to play a role.)

2. Creationism per se doesn't turn me away, but fundamentalist stupidity and hypocrisy does. (Since creationism is one arena where fundamentalists act like stupid hypocrites, clearly it plays a role.)

3. Creationism doesn't bother me, but creationists do. (I think that the interpretation of this one is rather obvious, and it conflicts with your conclusion.)

One might well ask, "Would you be more likely to be a Christian if there were no _Evidence that Demands a Verdict_, no Satanic conspiracy theories, and no creationism? Would you be more likely to be a Christian if fundies didn't claim that atheists have no morals and that existentialism means 'you only live once, so party hard'? Would you be more likely to be a Christian if fundamentalists generally valued freedom of speech and religion, and were intelligent enough to understand SOCAS?"

-Ben

[gobear]

Would you be more likely to be a Christian if fundamentalists generally valued freedom of speech and religion, and were intelligent enough to understand SOCAS?"

no, but I would have a lot more respect than I currently do for fundies. Christianity makes no sense. "God made you and loves you very much, but He gets really mad and wants to kill you if you make a mistake. If you're rally sorry, you can ask Him to forgive you. However, He can't just forgive you, he has to kill something first. It used to be animals, then God sent His Son to Earth to kill him so He could forgive everybody's sins. If you believe this, then you will go to heaven. If you don't, then God will lock you in an oven and burn you forever and ever, but He loves you very much." :rolleyes:

[Navigator]

Okay.. sorry, I'll stick to the question of the thread.

no.

[McMurphy]

Creationism doesn't turn me off to Christianity, just creationists.

[Freyr]

No, creationism in and of itself didn't turn me from Christianity. By the time I'd heard of "Creationism" I had long left.

What did turn me away:

1) The stance of the various churches on homosexuality. Except for sporadic pockets, all of them condemn homosexuality.

2) Monotheism. Most Christians seems to give lip service, at best, to the idea of many Gods. The impression I get from them (after explaining my own faith) is "Well, you're just worshipping the same god with a different name." The Buddha is not the same as Jesus nor is he like Freyr or Lugh or any of the many Gods I could name. Different Gods, different rules. At its worse, monotheism leads to such atrocities as is being done in Afghanistan right now.

3) Original sin. The idea of some innate part of our nature that leads us to automatically do wrong and therefore need "forgiveness" or to be held responsible and suffer the consequences of some event done by some incredibly remote ancestor; this is pure silliness. Or if it's true, sadism. Sure, humans make mistakes and do stupid things. Afterwards, you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and learn from your mistake; if possible you try to put the situation to right. None of this paying a debt for some mythical "slight" or breaking of rules.

[Polycarp]

The stance of the various churches on homosexuality. Except for sporadic pockets, all of them condemn homosexuality.

::: contemplates giving Freyr a wedgie :::


No. The United Church of Christ (FKA Congregationalists) does not, quite explicitly. The Episcopal Church, by and large, does not. Jodi's posted a strong upsurge in United Methodism against the condemnation of homosexual acts that's still officially in place -- and they're quite clear in their official language about the difference between persons and their acts. The United Presbyterians seem to be following suit -- there's a presbytery in Georgia, of all places, declining to approve language against homosexuals. Almost every major denomination has a group of "welcoming churches" who accept gay people as active and involved members with absolutely no bias.

In short, while some of the largest denominations still have a hardon against gays (pun intentional), many long-established denominations are changing their views -- and radically so. And there are a lot of us pushing hard for such change.

[tracer]

Polycarp wrote:

In short, while some of the largest denominations still have a hardon against gays (pun intentional),
*Whew* -- for a minute there, I thought you said some of the largest denominations still have a hadron against gays. "If any gays that come near our church, we'll blast them with pi mesons!"

[bungie_us]

Originally posted by tracer
*Whew* -- for a minute there, I thought you said some of the largest denominations still have a hadron against gays. "If any gays that come near our church, we'll blast them with pi mesons!"

HAR!

[Sealemon88]

I'm gonna come off like a broken record here, but it's not Creation that turns me off to Christianity, it's the Fundamentalist tactics of lying, hypocrasy, half truths, and outright bullying of those who don't believe their exact dogma.

I don't have a praticular belief in any organized religion: All of them are created by humans, and therefore fallible.

The difference is, I never had a Wiccan or Buhdist or Orthodox Jew get in my face and tell me that I'd be tortured for eternity if I didn't believe a certain story, despite all empirical evidence to the contrary.

This board has introduced me to a lot of genuine Christians; those who teach by example. My respect for Christians has therefore increased (I've always tried to live my life by the teachings of Christ, even if I don't believe in all the stories of the Bible. Whether Christ is God or not, the lessons are true to me).

[andros]

andros bares his soul . . .

I believe that the universe was set into motion, created, by God.

I believe that Genesis is true. Rather, that there is truth in Genesis.

I do not believe the events in Genesis are literally true.

IANAC, so I can't say with absolute certainty. But the parable of creation in Genesis would not turn me away from Christianity--unless it were a salvation issue. If the Book required one to accept the literal truth of Genesis (or any other part of the Bible), or face eternal damnation, I'd avoid Christianity like the plague.

As it is, I avoid Christianity for other reasons.

[Pariah]

It'd kinda smack of irony if Creation were the cause of many evolutionist's aversion to Christianity--I don't really see the CvE debate being the 'root' of adherence to one paradigm or the other. Contributing, possibly, but it would be kind of shallow if Creationism were a foundation of non-belief in God.

The following people were Creationists:

Francis Bacon
Johannes Kepler
Robert Boyle
Sir Isaac Newton
Blaise Pascal
Michael Faraday
James Clerk Maxwell
Humphrey Davey
Samuel Morse
James Joule
William Thompson (Lord Kelvin)

(Whether or not they would have 'converted' to the side of evolution had the 'more modern' information been presented is moot--they made the discoveries they did, and are regarded highly in their fields for the work they accomplished: their faith does not directly enter the equation.)

Point being, if the science espouses evolution as a direct result of the abhorrence to Christianity, it stands to reason these guys mightn't have been such proponents of the faith as they were.

True, they may have been simply naive.

Would that I were so prolific in my naivety.

[pantom]

2) Monotheism. Most Christians seems to give lip service, at best, to the idea of many Gods. The impression I get from them (after explaining my own faith) is "Well, you're just worshipping the same god with a different name." The Buddha is not the same as Jesus nor is he like Freyr or Lugh or any of the many Gods I could name. Different Gods, different rules. At its worse, monotheism leads to such atrocities as is being done in Afghanistan right now.



For the record, there's a common misperception that polytheistic religions are a bit more tolerant than the mono variety.
'Taint so.
The Hopis, many years ago, massacred a large number of their tribal members who had converted to some flavor of Christianity, I don't remember which. And the Hindus were guilty of some pretty horrible acts against Moslems in the long history of their close contact with members of that religion.
Religion is religion is religion, and fanaticism is fanaticism is fanaticism. The number of gods is irrelevant.

[TV time]

When I grew old enough to examine things intellectually rather than accept dogma blindly, I looked at creationism and found it little more than superstition based on a single questionably valid source.

I belived if there is a God and if He/She created man, He/She created man with a logical mind with the ability to see through superstitious mumbo jumbo and the simplistic fairy tale of Genesis.

As I have grown older, I have come to the opinion, by watching such people as creationists, that maybe man does not have a logical mind afterall.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Pariah
The following people were Creationists:


I should have been more specific. By "creationism" I mean modern-day, Gish and Hovind creation pseudoscience.

-Ben

[Freyr]

Poylcarp wrote:

::: contemplates giving Freyr a wedgie :::

Poly, you can give me a wedgie anytime, but I expect dinner and a movie first! :D

In short, while some of the largest denominations still have a hardon against gays (pun intentional), many long-established denominations are changing their views -- and radically so. And there are a lot of us pushing hard for such change.

Which is why I used the phrase sporadic pockets. As far as I can tell, most denomination still have the phrase "homosexuality is incompatible with Scripture" (or something similar to it) on their websites. Until that changes, I stick with my position.

pantom wrote:

For the record, there's a common misperception that polytheistic religions are a bit more tolerant than the mono variety.

While I'll agree with you on that, what you quoted from me was more to the point that many Christians think I'm still worshipping their God, just by a different name. That's not true; I follow different Gods, not the one of the Judeo-Christian Bible.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Freyr
While I'll agree with you on that, what you quoted from me was more to the point that many Christians think I'm still worshipping their God, just by a different name. That's not true; I follow different Gods, not the one of the Judeo-Christian Bible.


Arg! This is one of the things that bugged me about Belief-L. There was a big consensus among the founding members that all religions could be described as "One Mountain, Many Paths." It's interesting- these people included a Deist, a Muslim, a Wiccan, a Christian, etc. and yet they were all extremely dogmatic (IMO) about their "One Mountain, Many Paths" meta-religion. I remember the Wiccan very pedantically telling a Christian fundamentalist "No, you DO worship the same God that I do, you just don't know it yet." Belief in OMMP let them feel like they were very tolerant towards other religions (since they could speak vapidly about how all religions are really all worshipping the same God) while at the same time being very intolerant (since if you don't agree with the OMMP dogma, you're an idiot and a bigot.) After a while they started pressuring me to leave, saying that as an atheist I had nothing to add to a discussion of religion. After all, if the only legitimate goal of religion is mystical union with the godhead (which is how it was defined under OMMP,) then clearly atheistic belief systems aren't included in their warm-and-fuzzy tolerance of all "real" religions.

That, as you might gather, is why I left Belief-L for the SDMB.

-Ben

[drachillix]

When I was like 13 what really turned me off was not the creationism angle but when the minister in question told the group he used to burn holes in leaves by focusing the power of God through a magnifying glass.

Does that mean photovoltaic arrays convert the power of God to electricity? If so we can store the power of God in battery packs to power laser rifles that direct the power of God to fry our enemies. :rolleyes:

I refused to go to church after that, my dad respected my desire and my reasoning. I think he kinda expected me to go back eventually but I never did.

[tracer]

Ben wrote:

This is one of the things that bugged me about Belief-L.
What ever happened to Beliefs A through K?

[tracer]

drachillix wrote:

When I was like 13 what really turned me off was not the creationism angle but when the minister in question told the group he used to burn holes in leaves by focusing the power of God through a magnifying glass.
Wow! I didn't think there were many "sun worshippers" around these days.

[David B]

Sealemon said:
but it's not Creation that turns me off to Christianity, it's the Fundamentalist tactics of lying, hypocrasy, half truths, and outright bullying of those who don't believe their exact dogma. Didn't you know that it's okay to do all of these things, as long as you're doing them in the service of God?

[Freyr]

Ben wrote:

Belief in OMMP let them feel like they were very tolerant towards other religions (since they could speak vapidly about how all religions are really all worshipping the same God) while at the same time being very intolerant (since if you don't agree with the OMMP dogma, you're an idiot and a bigot.)

Oh, there are Fundies in all religions, I think. If you want to see them in Wicca, bring up the old argument about Crowley ghost-writing Gardner's "Ye Olde Bok". Or the Burning Times argument or the ancient fam-trad from before the "Burning Times" argument! Just sit back and watch the sparks fly! :rolleyes:

I do think there's a grain of truth in OMMP in that we're all searching for enlightenment. Now whether that enlightenment is sitting with God in heaven or by being a Bodhi-satva or becoming one with the Tao is a matter of which path you take. If there was just one God, wouldn't He/She/It be giving the same instructions to everyone?

[Ben]

Originally posted by Freyr

Oh, there are Fundies in all religions, I think.

Of course there are. But the interesting thing about OMMP on Belief-L is that it's a kind of meta-fundamentalism, under which Christians, Wiccans, Deists, Muslims, etc. can all band together and be intolerant to anyone who doesn't agree with their shared worldview.


I do think there's a grain of truth in OMMP in that we're all searching for enlightenment

I would disagree on the "all." For example, plenty of people are looking for a way to feel smug, or to get out of hell for free, or to let them do whatever they please and feel assured that Jesus already paid the bill.

The thing I found most problematic about OMMP is that first of all, it was very narrowly defined, compared to your definition. (And I agree with your definition, to the extent that what I would say that "legitimate" religions are about answering the question, "what's going on here?") The second problem was the arrogance of it, by which no one could be permitted to disagree: fundamentalist Christians who felt that *by definition* Jesus was not the same as Allah would be told "no, you idiot, you worship Allah just like the Wiccans do, and you just haven't figured it out yet." This would be especially galling when, having pedantically lectured people on the true will of God, they'd further lecture the fundies on the "hubris" of saying that they, as Christians, would go to heaven when they die. After all, it takes real hubris to claim you know God's plans for you, right?

-Ben

[Jeremy's Evil Twin]

What killed Christianity for me was right after I became "Born Again" (although I'd been raised under Christian beliefs all my life, I didn't make the "commitment to Christ" until I was in college) when I was talking with three separate, non-denominational mentors who all had different interpretations of what was supposedly "The Truth", to the point of saying that the other mentor's interpretations were going to land them in hell.

The final nail in the coffin was the theory that God created old-looking dinosaur bones, carbon dating technology, etc. specifically as a temptation for people to think that evolution might be true. I simply can't put faith in a supposedly loving God that INTENTIONALLY DECEIVES his "children". A God like that is a Devil!

Creationism didn't really hit it big until long after I'd switched to atheism, so it wasn't a major influence in turning me off to religion, although it is one of the big factors that make me point my finger and laugh a lot.

J.E.T.

[PaulYeah]

Originally posted by tracer
Ben wrote:

This is one of the things that bugged me about Belief-L.
What ever happened to Beliefs A through K?

Or Preparation H, for that matter?

[Badtz Maru]

No, I understand that not all Christians are Creationists, so why should I be turned off to an idea because some of it's supporters are stupid? Christianity is not one of my favorite religions, but it has it's good points.