"Dances with Wolves"--why does the officer piss in his pants?

[chappachula]

Dances with Wolves is one of my favorite movies because it has many realistic moments*.

But one part of the plot was just weird: when the Army officer orders Kevin Costner to travel to the abandoned army outpost, then pisses in his pants and commits suicide. Huh ? What the hell was that for?
The plot have worked better by treating that scene seriously. Instead of an officer acting like a buffoon, why not have a serious and intelligent officer say to Costner " I'm sending you to an outpost on the far frontier..Go out there... and tell us what you learn."




*I especially like the various scenes filmed inside the tepee, where I feel like I'm seeing the way the Indians really lived....examples :
--The nervous meeting in the main teepee where several people forcefully expresss their ideas about how to respond now that the white man is arriving, but then fall respectfully silent when the chief utters his decision.
-- The scene where the soldier rides up to the Indian village for the first time, and a terrified mother grabs her children to protect them.
-- A very small, but real, moment: the scene where the 2 Indians go into the army outpost, and one of them tastes sugar for the first time. His look of surprise at the new taste, and then the way he drops a handfull of sugar back into the sack, totally unaware of western social customs

[Covered_In_Bees!]

He wasn't acting like a buffoon, he was mentally disturbed. That's why he shot himself.

[Beware of Doug]

Mentally disturbed and, one presumes, piss drunk.

I always assumed he'd shot his second in command and reported him MIA.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

At least he wasn't pissed off.

[sachertorte]

I believe the point was that Costner's orders are never recorded so no one knows he's at the outpost so he's on his own.

[Tangent]

I believe the point was that Costner's orders are never recorded so no one knows he's at the outpost so he's on his own.

This.

[chappachula]

I believe the point was that Costner's orders are never recorded so no one knows he's at the outpost so he's on his own.

okay, I suppose that's a valid point. But it's too minor an issue to explain the oddity of the scene.
I've seen the movie several times, and I never noticed that there were no written orders. But even so, it doesnt really matter. Costner was sent out there with a "peasant" driving a heavy wagonload of supplies. The wagon driver's salary and all the barrels of supplies had to be paid for by the army, right? So there would have been some kind of "paper trail", even by 19th century standards.

He wasn't acting like a buffoon, he was mentally disturbed. That's why he shot himself.
so what?--buffoon, or mental case....either way, it doesn't fit the plot of the movie. A serious scene like I suggested in the OP would add atmosphere, add a bit of forewarning, a bit of suspence, a hint of foreboding adventure to come. The pissing/suicide scene just doesnt fit with the rest of the movie, and just spoils the atmosphere for a couple of minutes..

[Tangent]

I think the scene is also meant to punctuate how crazy war can be and the effect it can have on people. We've just seen Dunbar himself do something crazy and near-suicidal as he charges up and down the field in front of the enemy soldiers on his horse. The officer who sends him to the frontier is just a bit more "far gone" than Dunbar had been. It is an odd scene, but I think it adds rather than detracts from the movie.

[Wakinyan]

I read the novel once and the story is that nobobdy knows that the protagonist went to see the frontier; I don't remember the details, this is about twenty years ago, but in the novel the writer has another twist to make this happen. However in the movie, they need to make it short and let the guy shoot himself. But for him to shoot himself you need a reason and the reason is that he is crazy, which is proven by pissing his pants. -- This is IIRC plus my thoughts.

I never liked the scene in the film, it was kinda cheap and I was curious whether it was in the book too, but once again, it was better set up (IIRC).

[msmith537]

so what?--buffoon, or mental case....either way, it doesn't fit the plot of the movie. A serious scene like I suggested in the OP would add atmosphere, add a bit of forewarning, a bit of suspence, a hint of foreboding adventure to come. The pissing/suicide scene just doesnt fit with the rest of the movie, and just spoils the atmosphere for a couple of minutes..

I disagree. You don't think it adds a bit of suspense and foreboding that Dunbar has just been given orders to travel to some obscure outpost and no one will know he is there except for a mentally imbalanced officer who then shoots himself in the head?



Here's the scene on YouTube for reference. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQGSri7WqFM)

[Sampiro]

I always assumed there were some deleted scenes here that would make it more explicable. Does anybody know?

[bup]

We've just seen Dunbar himself do something crazy and near-suicidal as he charges up and down the field in front of the enemy soldiers on his horse. I would remove the 'near' - Dunbar was trying to be killed outright rather than submit to a saw doctor.

The officer shooting himself worked for me, and its function in the plot is clear.

Movies depict unlikely events because those are the stories worth watching.

[Morbo]

Costner was sent out there with a "peasant" driving a heavy wagonload of supplies. The wagon driver's salary and all the barrels of supplies had to be paid for by the army, right? So there would have been some kind of "paper trail", even by 19th century standards.

That guy was also killed, so you would assume that the entire wagon and its paper trail was written off as lost to the Indians.

I always assumed there were some deleted scenes here that would make it more explicable. Does anybody know?

There were. There's a Captain from the base who was worried about the suicidal officer, and after he shot himself the Captain ran into his office and stood in the doorway with a despondent look on his face.

[ftg]

I thought we discussed this before and all I could find was this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=281725). But I think it helps.

[Bri2k]

Actually, the scene where the C.O. shoots himself is historically accurate in the sense that the suicide rate among soldiers posted on the frontier was high. A good novel to read for background on what life was like for those men is Evan McConnell's Son of the Morning Star. Insanity, drunkenness and suicide seemed to rise the farther out one was from civilization.

Bri2k

[DocCathode]

It's been a while since I saw the film, so I can't remember if there was a basis for this. BUT

I thought the officer was only somewhat crazy, but was also an alcoholic spiralling the drain.

'So, you wanna go west? Who gives a crap! I refuse to take anything seriously now that my life has turned to shit! By the way, my body is so damaged I've lost control of my bladder! Nothing but happy days ahead for me! I think I'll eat a bullet after I finish this cake.'

[Two Many Cats]

Actually, the scene where the C.O. shoots himself is historically accurate in the sense that the suicide rate among soldiers posted on the frontier was high. A good novel to read for background on what life was like for those men is Evan McConnell's Son of the Morning Star. Insanity, drunkenness and suicide seemed to rise the farther out one was from civilization.

Bri2k

Yes this is true, and not only for soldiers. A lot of plains settlers went nuts just from the sheer isolation they endured. Imagine living in some sod shack for months on end and seeing nobody but whoever lived with you. No TV, no electricity, no communications. You probably didn't have many books because they were expensive and you traveled lightly to get where you were. You didn't have enough daylight to read by, working backbreaking work all day, and it was pitch black at night. Maybe you might have candles or a lantern, but you wouldn't want to waste those either. Plus cow shit for fires, mmmm nice!

[devilsknew]

Maybe he was syphillitic? Another possibility from his behavior... syphilis was probably pretty common at that time and he might have been at the end of the disease in dementia. They also used mercury or compounded mercury to treat it sometimes which just worsened the symptoms. Maybe that's what the writer's and director had in mind, to realistically depict the kind of people you might find in those times, which might include a substantial number of crazy syphilitics, usually in later age and standing or rank, as it might take up to 25 years to emerge as a latent symptom.

[BrainGlutton]

I think the only point of the scene is to show that a posting at an isolated frontier base will drive some men crazy. And now Costner's going out and leaving even that behind, how will he deal?!

[devilsknew]

Considering these were enlisted men in a frontier town, likely with brothels, it might be that most of them might have gotten syphilis. It would also seem to reinforce the general idea that this was like the "Siberia" or "Alaska" of military outposts, probably the misfits and rejects, crazy, and their like stationed in Scalpin' BFE.

[billfish678]

Yes this is true, and not only for soldiers. A lot of plains settlers went nuts just from the sheer isolation they endured. Imagine living in some sod shack for months on end and seeing nobody but whoever lived with you. No TV, no electricity, no communications. You probably didn't have many books because they were expensive and you traveled lightly to get where you were. You didn't have enough daylight to read by, working backbreaking work all day, and it was pitch black at night. Maybe you might have candles or a lantern, but you wouldn't want to waste those either. Plus cow shit for fires, mmmm nice!

No shit. We went to look at some inheritted land in very southeastern Colorado this summer. Damn good thing I had cranked up Google Earth and pulled off GPS coordinates first before we went out there because it all looked the same. God what a mind numbing boring middle of nowhere place that was. And that was NOW with cars and highways and shit. 150 years ago give or take? Holy moly. And I LIKE the desert and isolation for the most part!

[Chimera]

In letters mailed back home
her Eastern sisters they would moan
as they would read
accounts of madness, childbirth, loneliness and grief.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

A very small, but real, moment: the scene where the 2 Indians go into the army outpost, and one of them tastes sugar for the first time. His look of surprise at the new taste, and then the way he drops a handfull of sugar back into the sack, totally unaware of western social customsThat didn't seem at all realistic to me -- more of a 'look how primitive these Indians are' putdown.

Are we supposed to believe that Indians knew nothing about sweeteners?
What about honey? There are lots of bees around.
What about maple syrup? There are lots of maple trees around.
What about corn syrup? (Remember the Indians who showed the Pilgrims about corn?)
What about fructose, from all the fruits & berries that grow around here?
For that matter, the first thing that Indian ever tasted -- human breast milk is fairly sweet. And Indians of that time were NOT raised on Nestle formula!

The idea that an Indian would be astonished at the taste of sweetness is just plain ridiculous.

[Clark Cello]

That didn't seem at all realistic to me -- more of a 'look how primitive these Indians are' putdown.

Are we supposed to believe that Indians knew nothing about sweeteners?
What about honey? There are lots of bees around.
What about maple syrup? There are lots of maple trees around.
What about corn syrup? (Remember the Indians who showed the Pilgrims about corn?)
What about fructose, from all the fruits & berries that grow around here?
For that matter, the first thing that Indian ever tasted -- human breast milk is fairly sweet. And Indians of that time were NOT raised on Nestle formula!

The idea that an Indian would be astonished at the taste of sweetness is just plain ridiculous.

There are plenty of accounts of Indians, after being exposed to sugar, using it in great quantities. I don't find that scene unbelievable.

[BrainGlutton]

That didn't seem at all realistic to me -- more of a 'look how primitive these Indians are' putdown.

Are we supposed to believe that Indians knew nothing about sweeteners?
What about honey? There are lots of bees around.

Refined cane sugar's a different taste entirely.

[billfish678]

Sugar, the other white powder...

[smiling bandit]

Sugar, the other white powder...

That's no joke: sugar is incredibly addictive.

[Koxinga]

Watching the movie, it seemed obvious to me that since the Civil War was still going on at the time, the only kind of officer the Federals could spare for such an outpost would be an incompetent mental case. Not very long afterward, presumably when the war was over, you saw Dunbar return to his little camp (to retrieve his diary) and suddenly it was a well-staffed model of military efficiency.

[BrainGlutton]

I think the scene is also meant to show the white man's presence in that part of the continent as somehow pointless and absurd . . . but that makes little sense historically.

[ReticulatingSplines]

If were about to kill myself, I'd piss my pants too, because who gives a fuck about getting to the toilet when you're going to be dead in 30 seconds? I might also shit them for good measure.

[Mahaloth]

If were about to kill myself, I'd piss my pants too, because who gives a fuck about getting to the toilet when you're going to be dead in 30 seconds? I might also shit them for good measure.

I hope I don't find your body.

[mlees]

I believe the point was that Costner's orders are never recorded so no one knows he's at the outpost so he's on his own.

My confuddlement on the whole scene prevented me from realising this point.

Also, Costner's character hears the gunshot (the suicide), but doesn't seem to react much. Was gunfire relatively common enough that no one is curious about what is going on? (Much like car alarms today.)

[mlees]

so what?--buffoon, or mental case....either way, it doesn't fit the plot of the movie. A serious scene like I suggested in the OP would add atmosphere, add a bit of forewarning, a bit of suspence, a hint of foreboding adventure to come. The pissing/suicide scene just doesnt fit with the rest of the movie, and just spoils the atmosphere for a couple of minutes..

The beginning of the movie has Costner on a Civil War battlefield. The Army there is not shown in the best of light either. (I forget why Costner's character was driven to attempted suicide by riding back and forth in front of the enemy like that...)

I had assumed that the pissing drunk/insane frontier commander (who addressed Costner as if Costner was a Knight on some quest) was along the same theme.

[Push You Down]

The beginning of the movie has Costner on a Civil War battlefield. The Army there is not shown in the best of light either. (I forget why Costner's character was driven to attempted suicide by riding back and forth in front of the enemy like that...)

I had assumed that the pissing drunk/insane frontier commander (who addressed Costner as if Costner was a Knight on some quest) was along the same theme.

He rides out because he overhears them saying they may have to amputate his leg(s). He'd prefer death to that.

[Push You Down]

That didn't seem at all realistic to me -- more of a 'look how primitive these Indians are' putdown.

Are we supposed to believe that Indians knew nothing about sweeteners?
What about honey? There are lots of bees around.
What about maple syrup? There are lots of maple trees around.
What about corn syrup? (Remember the Indians who showed the Pilgrims about corn?)
What about fructose, from all the fruits & berries that grow around here?
For that matter, the first thing that Indian ever tasted -- human breast milk is fairly sweet. And Indians of that time were NOT raised on Nestle formula!

The idea that an Indian would be astonished at the taste of sweetness is just plain ridiculous.

.....Indians weren't/aren't ONE PEOPLE. The indians who showed the pilgrims about corn have little in common with the Lakota in the film. And I don't think Kansas is know for their maple syrup.

[mlees]

He rides out because he overhears them saying they may have to amputate his leg(s). He'd prefer death to that.

That's right! Thanks! It's been a while since I've seen the film. (I would have sworn that the horse death-ride came before the hospital scene, for example.)

[Colibri]

Are we supposed to believe that Indians knew nothing about sweeteners?
What about honey? There are lots of bees around.

Honey was probably the only real sweetener they had. Cane sugar is even sweeter, tastes different, and is solid rather than liquid.

What about maple syrup? There are lots of maple trees around.

Sugar maples? Not on the Great Plains.

What about corn syrup? (Remember the Indians who showed the Pilgrims about corn?)

I've never heard that Indians made corn syrup. Since it was originally made by treating corn with hydrochloric acid, and now is produced with enzymes, neither of which the Indians had, I think it's pretty unlikely they had any knowledge of it.

What about fructose, from all the fruits & berries that grow around here?
For that matter, the first thing that Indian ever tasted -- human breast milk is fairly sweet. And Indians of that time were NOT raised on Nestle formula!

Neither fruits nor breast milk have nearly the concentrated sweetness of cane sugar.

The idea that an Indian would be astonished at the taste of sweetness is just plain ridiculous.

It's not just sweetness, it's the extremely concentrated sweetness in solid form. When cane sugar was first introduced into Europe it was in enormous demand as a luxury product, even though Europeans were quite familiar with honey and fruit.

The Indian's reaction to tasting cane sugar for the first time was entirely plausible. He would never had encountered anything that sweet before, certainly not as a powder. (In any case, he would probably have assumed the sugar was salt and been shocked by the unexpected taste.)

[Duckster]

Did you watch the three-hour theatrical version or the four-hour Director's cut?

[BrainGlutton]

.....Indians weren't/aren't ONE PEOPLE. The indians who showed the pilgrims about corn have little in common with the Lakota in the film.

Well, of course not, but all Indian nations did diverge from common post-Bering-crossing ancestors, and as a result they shared certain cultural commonalities, like wearing feathers and saying "How!" and scalping people and not feeling pain and drinking heap much firewater.

[BrainGlutton]

I dunno why Indians liked to stand in front of cigar stores. I think it's some kinda Y-haploid-chromosomal trait or something.

[Colibri]

Well, of course not, but all Indian nations did diverge from common post-Bering-crossing ancestors, and as a result they shared certain cultural commonalities, like wearing feathers and saying "How!" and scalping people and not feeling pain and drinking heap much firewater.

Don't forget Hinduism.

[Gary T]

A good novel to read for background on what life was like for those men is Evan McConnell's Son of the Morning Star.While McConnell did write some novels, Son of the Morning Star isn't one of them. It's non-fiction, a biography/history of Custer and the Battle of the Little Bighorn. A damn good one, though, as you say.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Connell, not McConnell.

[Gary T]

Connell, not McConnell.:smack:

[Clark Cello]

While McConnell did write some novels, Son of the Morning Star isn't one of them. It's non-fiction, a biography/history of Custer and the Battle of the Little Bighorn. A damn good one, though, as you say.

Seconded, one of my favorite books.

[mlees]

I dunno why Indians liked to stand in front of cigar stores. I think it's some kinda Y-haploid-chromosomal trait or something.

Panhandling?

You think someone would have told them to get a job!

[Koxinga]

Must be the same gene that causes them to weep when someone litters. (Or is that Sicilian?)

[billfish678]

I dunno why Indians liked to stand in front of cigar stores. I think it's some kinda Y-haploid-chromosomal trait or something.

I know one thing for sure. That wooden stare creeps me the fuck out.

[Alessan]

Honey was probably the only real sweetener they had. Cane sugar is even sweeter, tastes different, and is solid rather than liquid.


I doubt nomads like the Plains nations kept bees. They may have cracked open the occasional wild hive, but that would be a pretty rare occurrence.

[Chimera]

Especially since Honey Bees are not native to North America. They were imported by the Europeans.