Does anyone learn Latin anymore?

[dougie_monty]

I'd have to plead ignorance on this topic--I graduated from high school in 1967, and took French. But, are there some, among the Teeming Millions, who took Latin in high school? Nonne intelligis? (Remember, I didn't take Latin.)

[jab1]

I have not taken Latin, but I can assure you that others still take it and they are the scientists who specialize in the life sciences. All dinosaurs have Latin names, for example ("Tyrannosaurus rex" means "tyrant lizard king", "triceratops" means "three-horned face", just to name two). And all biologists know Latin in order to distinguish species, and let's not forget medicine!!

[phouka]

Both my brothers did. I picked some up just by osmosis, and took a semester in college.

I like it in that it can give you a bit of a grip on Romance languages (languages that have evolved from Latin), and a lot of help in vocabulary.

Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua!

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"I'm surprised that you've never been told before, that you're lovely, that you're perfect, and that somebody wants you." - Semisonic, f.n.p

[dougie_monty]

Golly...and my chosen field is law... De minimis non curat lex!

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"If you drive an automobile, please drive carefully--because I walk in my sleep."--Victor Borge

[Manda JO]

Many historians learn Latin as well, partially because if you want to study European history you have to read Latin to do any sort of serious research and partially for the shear hell of it.

[dougie_monty]

Now there's a straight line! :)

[Ennius]

I take Latin right now (12th grade). No reason, it's just kinda fun...

Actually, the real reason I take it is the history. All of modern history has its roots in the classics. Reading Cicero's orations and Sallust's commentaries on the Catilinarian conspiracy can give you real insight into nationalism and treason over the centuries.

And then there's the pure literary value of the thing. Catullus is, to my mind, one of the greatest poets of all time--"Ave atque Vale" is my favorite, as well as "Passer"--and I took my member name from the father of Latin poetry.

Yes, intellectualism is still alive in the schools!

[Ennius]

course, now that i think of it, my priest hasn't given a High Mass recently, so I'll bet he doesn't know Latin. Or at leat more than, say, Dominus Vobiscum.

[Monty]

Oh, Ennius, I'm sure your priest knows some Latin. After all, it is taught in the seminary, isn't it?

My WAG as a short list to who would need to know some Latin today would be those in the following fields:

-History
-Genealogy
-Theology (not just priests!)
-Medicine
-Diplomacy
-Law
-Romance Languages

[Whammo]

I agree with jab1. I have a heavy biology background and all scientific names of animals are in latin... and when translated from latin tell you much about the creature just by the scientific name, it is usually a documented genus name and a descriptive latin name. Not always, but most of the time.

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The wisest man I ever knew taught me something I never forgot. And although I never forgot it, I never quite memorized it either. So what I'm left with is the memory of having learned
something very wise that I can't quite remember. -George Carlin

[Contestant #3]

I have 3 children that are currently taking a third year of latin in HS.

They must only learn to read and write latin...it is not being taught as a spoken language at their school...

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Contestant #3

[Fretful Porpentine]

You also need Latin if you're going to study medieval or Renaissance literature, and it doesn't hurt for later periods as well.

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"Succurrite, succurrite, horribilis heffalumpus! Hoff, hoff, hellibilis horralumpus! Holl, holl, hoffabilis hellerumpus!"

[Doobieous]

Hmm after i master Spanish, Maybe I will tackle Latin (or Japanese, or Portuguese, or Mandarin, I dont know :)). However, most people who know Romance languages have somewhat of an advantage. I can still tell quite a few of the meanings for some Latin words because I know the equivalents in Spanish (not much but some ;)).

I would also think some botanists would learn Latin because the classification system for plants is Latin (though botanical Latin is new Latin mind you).

[moriah]

As has been pointed out, not just priests learn Latin for the study of theology or to work in the Vatican. Lay people (i.e., non-priests) learn Latin in these cases, also.

Also note that Latin is not a dead language. It is spoken regularly and fluently in the Vatican State and new words are being coined all the time (they had to have a Latin word for compter after all). It's just that Latin is no longer anyone's first or native toungue.

Although, there are signs that Latin is dying even in the Catholic Church. Some of the newer Vatican documents are being composed and promulgated in a language other than Latin (e.g., the Catechism of the Catholic Church was composed in French). And not only are the Vatican II generation of priests no longer taught in Latin, the Latin they do take is very minimal. Rare it is to find a priest under 50 who can really read or speak Latin.

(Keep in mind that even before Vatican II days, many priests' knowledge of Latin was far from fluent. They spent most of their lives simply reading the Latin text in front of them. This did not require fluency or understanding to simply pronounce what you see.)

Peace.

[Northern Piper]

Golly...and my chosen field is law... De minimis non curat lex!

There was a young fellow named Rex
With diminutive organs of sex
When charged with exposure
He replied with composure
De minimus non cureat lex.

[handy]

I want to read a love poem froma guy to a girl in latin. Someone have one? thx

[Monty]

Regularly and fluently in the Vatican State? LOL! Please post your research into how the following languaages are spoken there and to what degree:

1) Italina
2) French
3) English
4) Latin

[Johnny Angel]

At our school we have a Society for Ancient Languages, which is one of the most active on campus. We have not only student and faculty members, we also have members from the community at large. It attracts all kinds of people, from poets to engineers.

As to what Moriah said, our Dr. Gerberding once mentioned that he personally knows a guy whose job it is to make up new Latin words for modern things, such as traffic jams. Unfortunately, I don't know what any of them are.

For Handy, here's a good Latin love poem, from Catullus:

Vivamus mea Lesbia, atque amemus,

rumoresque senum seueriorum

omnes unius aestimemus assis!

soles occidere et redire possunt:

nobis cum semel occidit breuis lux,

nox est perpetua una dormienda.

da mi basia mille, deinde centum,

dein mille altera, dein secunda centum,

deinde usque altera mille, deinde centum.

dein, cum milia multa fecerimus,

conturbabimus illa, ne sciamus,

aut ne quis malus inuidere possit,

cum tantum sciat esse basiorum.

[tanstaafl]

Never one to miss the chance to pass on a strange web site, there are now recordings of Elvis songs in Latin, featuring things like Tenere Me Ama ("Love Me Tender"), Nunc Aeternitatis ("Surrender"), Non Adamare Non Possum ("Can't Help Falling In Love"), and of course, Impossibile ("It's Impossible")
http://bolchazy.com/cat/elvis.html

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"You can't run away forever; but there's nothing wrong with getting a good head start." --- Jim Steinman

Dennis Matheson --- Dennis@mountaindiver.com
Hike, Dive, Ski, Climb --- www.mountaindiver.com (http://www.mountaindiver.com)

[Geenius]

The best thing about knowing Latin is being able to take prosaic phrases and make them sound like highfalutin mottoes.


<center>BIS METIRE SEMEL SECA</center>
<center><small>("Measure twice, cut once")</small></center>

[moriah]

Monty,

The Vatican seminary still teaches in Latin.

Pax

[MysticMilt]

On a related note, some months ago I saw one of our regular posters (please forgive me as I've forgotten whom) had the sig file:

"Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"

translation:
"If you can read this, you're way too educated."

By the way, while we're on translations, what does "De minimus non cureat lex" mean, anyway? It's been far too many years since my last latin class....

[Johnny Angel]

I can't quite suss it either. I don't think my Latin is quite that rusty, because de clearly can't take the nominative minimus. And what is cureat? It looks like a second conjugation subjunctive, but it can't be curo, curare or curro, currere, which are first and third conjugation respectively.

Near as I can tell, it's ungrammatical nonsense.

Maybe it's supposed to be De minimo lege non currat, let him not run from the smallest law. That sounds like a Roman sentiment.

[Johnny Angel]

Whoops, sorry. That would be De minima lege non currat.

what does "De minimus non cureat [sic: curat]lex" mean, anyway?

"The law does not concern itself about trifles."

[Northern Piper]

I can't speak to the exact spelling or case (and I see that I stuck an "e" into "curat" - I think Dougie Monty got it right in his original inquiry). As for its provenance, it is "Law Latin," which Brewer's describes as the "debased Latin used in legal documents."

The phrase is usually translated, at least by lawyers with little acquaintance with real Latin (such as myself), as "The law is not concerned with trifles," i.e. that there are some minor matters which may be technical breaches of the law, but which the courts will not address.

See also Dr. Johnson's Dictionary, under "trifling" - " 'Tis hard for every trifling debt of two shillings to be driven to law." (quoting Spenser).

sorry for not putting the translation in my limerick post - got distracted at the time.

[Northern Piper]

here's a cite to a legal dictionary: http://www.duhaime.org/dict-d.htm

[OldBroad]

Not exactly a response to the OP, but I couldn't help myself. BTW, I ripped these from a friend, so I can't speak to the grammar or syntax.

Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.
Was I speaking latin again? Silly me. Sometimes it just sort of slips out.

Noli ludere alimento! memento Carthaginienses esurientes!
Don't play with your food. Remember the starving Carthaginians.

Id in machinam schidarum scindendarum incedit.
It fell into the shredder.

Habesne "olyzam flictam?" Hae hae hae.
Do you have "Flied Lice?" Ha ha ha

Obesa cantavit.
The fat lady has sung.


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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.

[Johnny Angel]

Ah, yes. The expression is `de minimis non curat lex' That I could have translated. :.)

[matt_mcl]

It's just that Latin is no longer anyone's first or native toungue.

And just what (said the linguistics major) do you suppose is the definition of a dead language? Yup.

[handy]

Johnny Angel, thanks for the poem, I trust that it's nice & not one that would get me hit on the head with a baseball bat? :-)

[John W. Kennedy]

<sigh!>

No, it's De minibus non curat lex. Ablative plural. "The Law is not concerned with trifles."

Offhand, I don't think it's Roman; I think it's Elizabethan, and by Coke, but I might be wrong about that.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[dougie_monty]

I have taken French and Spanish--and taught myself Esperanto. I've noticed the dissimilarities between Latin, an inflectional language, and Spanish and French, which treat nouns much like English but still use that maddening system of verb conjugations Latin had.
John 3:16 in:
Latin--Sic enim deus dilexit mundum, ut Filium suum unigenitum daret, ut omnis, qui credit in Eum, non pereat, sed habeat vitam aeternam.
French--Car Dieu a tant aimé le monde, qu'il a donné son Fils unique, afin que quiconque croit en Lui, ne périsse point, mais ait la vie éternelle.
Spanish--Por que Dios tal amó el mundo, que dio a su Hijo unigénito, por que todos, que creen en Él, non perezcan, pero tengan vida eterna.
There are enough dissimilarities between the three languages to suggest that learning Latrin isn't really so much a key to Spanish or French or Italian.

[Johnny Angel]

Handy:

Here's my translation of Catullus 5:

Let us live, my Lesbia, and let us love

And all the talk of cranky old men

Let us value at one penny!

Suns can set and rise again:

But when our brief light has fallen,

Night is one eternal sleep.

Give me a thousand kisses, then a hundred

Then another thousand, then a second hundred

And even another thousand, and another hundred.

Until by these many thousands we will have made

We will be confounded lest we know

Or lest some villain is able to envy us

Knowing the number of our kissings.

If you are at all in to singing Renaissance and "church" music (and there's a lot of great stuff out there that you don't have to be "churchy" to enjoy), some knowledge of Latin can enhance the enjoyment in the music. The choir I sing in is about to cut a CD of its latest concert. Included in the program are two selections by Palestrina (late 1500s into the 1600s, I think, not certain), both in Latin. One is "Sicut Cervus" (sicut cervus desiderat ad fontes -- as the deer longs for running streams) and the other is "Super Flumina" (by the banks of the river we hung up our instruments . . .). Both are done a cappella, in four parts. Both are haunting, beautiful melodies, and an understanding of the meaning of the words helps bring expression to the presentation of the music.

Other selections include two different versions of "Jubilate Deo," again both in Latin. We also have one piece in French, and the rest in English, except for a truly magnificent Ave, again in Latin, recently (within the last five or six years, I think) composed by Lauridsen (sp?)who is the composer-in-residence for the L.A. Master Chorale, in honor of conducter Paul Salumnivich (sp. again?). Eight voice parts -- a challenge, and absolutely a fantastic piece of music.

-Melin
(who is bisectional -- alto and soprano) ;)

[Hello Again]

MysticMilt,

In the glorious text "Latin for all occasions" they have a series of latin bumper stickers. my favorite of which involves the quote in your post but is modified to translate:
"If you can read this you're both too close and very well educated"

I'm afraid I can't recall the exact text, though. Alas.

And don't forget, latin is important in understanding most state mottos.
(Virginia: "Sic Semper Tyrannis" = Thus Always to Tyrants. New York: "Excelsior"= Ever Upward. Michigan: "Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice" = If you seek a pleasant peninsula, look about you.)

[Jake]

"Illigitimi non-carbrendum"
(Don't let the Bastards grind you down)
Is this spelled right?
Is it even Latin?

[handy]

Johnny Angel, that is a great translation, very fitting for me, I much appreciate it.

[tracer]

OldBroad wrote:

Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.
Was I speaking latin again? Silly me. Sometimes it just sort of slips out.

Noli ludere alimento! memento Carthaginienses esurientes!
Don't play with your food. Remember the starving Carthaginians.

Id in machinam schidarum scindendarum incedit.
It fell into the shredder.

Habesne "olyzam flictam?" Hae hae hae.
Do you have "Flied Lice?" Ha ha ha

Obesa cantavit.
The fat lady has sung.

All of these quotes come from one of two books published by Henry Beard about a decade ago.

The books were called Latin for All Occasions and Latin for Even More Occasions. I have both of these books at home, sitting next to my Latin dictionary and my copy of Teach Yourself Latin.

I just hate to see good works like these sentences go without citing their real author!

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Visit the Internet Stellar Database at www.stellar-database.com (http://www.stellar-database.com)

[dougie_monty]

I have mentioned in the MPSIMS forum that Bob Hope told the "Latin America" joke on Ronald Reagan, not Quayle, in 1983. I know--I still have an audio recording about that which I made off Hope's Christmas special that year.
Being from Indiana myself, I also know that Quayle's grandfather's family owns the news media in central Indiana, which helped Danny Boy defeat the popular senator Birch Bayh in the 1980 U. S. Senatorial election in Indiana. :(

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"If you drive an automobile, please drive carefully--because I walk in my sleep."--Victor Borge

[Polycarp]

You folks who are "concerning yourselves with trifles" should note that the English noun that the translation ends with is in the plural. The proper quote is actually:

De minimis (abl. pl.) non curat lex.

[Polycarp]

You should also realize that after Dan Quayle is elected President, he plans to sponsor a new emphasis on Latin in order that we have enough diplomats, consuls, and inernational businesspeople who can function well in Latin America. ;)

[John W. Kennedy]

No, the old "carborundum" gag isn't Latin. Neither is:

O sibile, si ergo,
Fortibus es in ero.
Nobile demis trux.
Sevatis enim? Cowsendux!

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[jwg]

Yes, they do. For the same reason people study Classical, Homeric, or Koine Greek.

[Ennius]

Boy, and I thought this was going to be a short, esoteric string of answers!

Oh well, just remember:

"Semper ubi sub ubi." Hae hae hae, as Henry Beard would say.

[tracer]

A TRS-80 game from about 1980 called "Galactic Revolution" used Semper Ubi Sub Ubi as the motto for the DuBuque revolutionaries.

When I learned what the phrase actually meant, years later, it was a big disapppointment. :)

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Visit the Internet Stellar Database at www.stellar-database.com (http://www.stellar-database.com)

[dougie_monty]

Stan Laurel was still alive--and lucid--when the organization "Sons of the Desert" was founded. John McCabe asked Stan what should be the mott; he suggested, "Why not let it be 'Two Minds Without a Single Thought'?" This was duly translated into Latin and appears thus on the escutcheon of Sons of the Desert, thus:
DUAE RASAE TABULAE IN QUIBUS NIHIL SCRIPTUM EST
(I think the word for "two" should be in the subjective case singular, Due.)

[dougie_monty]

Excuse me--motto! :o:o:o:o:o

[waterj2]

Well, at my high school, I had to take Latin from 7th through 11th grades. Of course, at a school called Boston Latin School, that's to be expected. I graduated in 1996, and my diploma is written in Latin, which means I don't know exactly what it says.

Anyways, I think that duae is correct, as it modifies tabulae rasae, which is plural. Also, that translates more or less to "two blank (writing) tablets on which nothing is written."

[dougie_monty]

Anyways, I think that duae is correct, as it modifies tabulae rasae, which is plural. Also, that translates more or less to "two blank (writing) tablets on which nothing is written."
Well, then, when would the "singular," due, be used? Is it like eins in German? :confused:

[waterj2]

I have no idea under what circumstances one would use the singular form of "two". It doesn't seem particularly useful.

[Gunslinger]

I took Latin for 2 years in high school (2 years of foreign language req'd, I took Latin 'cause you don't have to speak it in class).

Useful Latin phrase:

Carpe cerevisi!

:D

[bibliophage]

Duae is right. I do not believe there is a word due in Latin. The numerals are generally indeclinable adjectives. Only unus, duo, and tres are declinable. There are not separate singular and plural forms except for unus, the plural of which can mean "only". Mille is an indeclinable adjective meaning "a thousand" but there is a separate, declinable, noun milia. The declension of duo is
Nom.: duo, duae, duo
Gen.: duorum, duarum, duorum
Dat.: duobus, duabus, duobus
Acc.: duos, duas, duo
Abl.: duobus, duabus, duobus

As long as we're on the subject, does anyone know of a Latin-language newspaper, magazine, or newsletter? I looked for one a few weeks ago and came up empty. I seem to recall that the National Junior Classical League used to put one out, but now I don't see any mention of it on their website (http://www.njcl.org/). Contrary to what others have said above, I can't see much evidence that the Vatican is a hotbed of Latin speaking. They put out L'OSSERVATORE ROMANO (http://www.vatican.va/news_services/or/home_eng.html) in many languages, but Latin is apparently not one of them. The closest thing I've come up with is a transcript of a news summary in Latin from Radio Finland (http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/summary.html)

[Maeglin]

I studied medieval history and classical literature in college, so I had healthy doses of Latin and Greek. My Latin is a lot better, though, as I endured the mandatory year-long survey class. 700 lines of a new text every week for a year.

I can't think of any Latin language journals offhand, but I used to follow one or two. Inquire at alt.language.latin, soc.history.ancient, or alt.humanities.classics. I used to be really active on those boards, and I know there are many knowledgeable denizens there.

MR