Revolvers, silencers and The Rockford Files

[Inky]

Last night the conversation got steered twards Seventies detective shows (doesn't it always seem to?)like Colombo and Quincy and Rockford Files. Along with all the other 70's detective show cliches (tight flared slacks, black turtleneck sweaters for villians, Ford mustangs, Lincoln Town Cars for the heavies, etc.) there were a lot of revolvers with silencers.

Granted, they worked great on T.V. (they all had that signiture "Thwip!" sound) but in the real word how well could a silencer really work on a revolver? Isn't the idea to muffle the gas released? So, what about the gap between the revolving cylander thing and the barrel?

My last question (does the executioner get that second chance?) showed me that theres plenty of folks in this group that know an awful lot about guns (so I don't wanna' make any enemies, thanks).

Adam "Inky" "I think it's time for Mr. Rockford to have an 'accident'..." Greene

[pluto]

I'm not an expert on firearms by any means but I believe the whole point is to not have any of the propulsive gases escape other than down the barrel, behind the bullet. The seal between the cylinder and the barrel must be pretty good in order for a revolver to work at all. Any apparent openings must be in parts of the cylinder that aren't actually in use while firing.


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"non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem"
-- William of Ockham

[Boris B]

There is no way to effectively silence a standard revolver. If the barrel-cylinder gap is tight enough to block gas from leaking, the cylinder won't advance.

The exceptions are the old model 1895 Nagant gas seal revolver, which was standard Russian issue right up to 1950 or so. More recently, Knight's Manufacturing company devised a revolver similar in principle, which is called the Revolver-Rifle or the Revolver-Pistol, depending on the version. These weapons cam the cylinder forward before the hammer strikes, which seals the gap and allows a suppressor to be effective.

In the case of the Nagant, the point was not silence, but rather, velocity. Gas loss through the barrel cylinder gap loses a little velocity too, but apparently not enough for anyone to copy Nagant. In the case of the Knight, the idea is stealth for special operations. A bad guy used a suppressed Knight to kill the Smoking Man on the X-Files, and it generated a huge debate. Only the truly illuminated (i.e. people who read neat "assault weapons" books like myself) knew that the X-Files was on solid ground.

[Boris B]

Speaking of movies, there is a gunsmith in The Godfather who leaves a revolver really loud so Michael will cow everyone he doesn't kill in that Italian restaurant. I think the way he did that was by adjusting the cylinder so it sat further from the barrel, allowing more gas to escape. So I suppose a good gunsmith could minimize gas likewize. The consensus is, it wouldn't be enough to effectively suppress the weapon.

[pluto]

Not only do I claim to not be an expert on firearms but I actually prove it by making a WAG that turns out to be totally wrong!!

Will wonders never cease?


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"non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem"
-- William of Ockham

[Ringo]

The acoustic wave that is associated with the sound of a gunshot propagates at the open end of the barrel. An acoustic chamber (silencer) does much to diminish the subsequent propagation of this signal in the airspace (medium). One of the more effective applications of a silencer (only useful if your target is within a few feet, as it adversely affects accuracy) is to fire at your subject through the mouth of a 2 liter soda pop bottle.

Happy hunting!

[mangeorge]

How about a potato? No kidding, using a potato as a silencer was popular lore when I was a kid. Does it work? I think it was in a movie.
Peace,
mangeorge

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Work like you don't need the money.....
Love like you've never been hurt.....
Dance like nobody's watching! ....(Paraphrased)

[Inky]

Use a potato as a silencer?

" Yeah sargent, it's the same M.O: shot point blank with a large calaber weapon, telltale hint of spud residue, looks like the work of the Idaho Assasin! Witness reports describe a short, rotund man in a bowler hat with removeable ears, nose, and moustache. Clearly a master of disguise!"

[Momotaro]

While we're at it, why the pillow? I've seen it often in movies, sometimes pressed against the person being shot, sometimes against the gun. That doesn't seem very consistent.

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Only humans commit inhuman acts.

[Nickrz]

I think the pillow idea is to reduce the amount of powder burns around the wound so the investigators won't know the subject was shot point-blank. I dunno if that works either. Wouldn't they detect the pinfeather residue and know they had another "you go beddy-bye" murder on their hands?

[DougC]

- - - A couple of points I know to be true:
- The reason they sound the way they do on TV is that (tyically) the whole sound engineering process isn't set up to accurately capture the very-low-frequency discharge noise, because your TV speakers most likely couldn't reproduce it accurately. And the director wants it to sound quiet anyway, so they don't worry about it.
- In Hollywood, silencers work far better than in reality - usually they are way too small to be as effective as implied.
- Pillows will mute gun noise somewhat, as will many fruits and vegetables (once), 2-liter soda bottles (a few shots, depending on caliber), and various other common items. Simply pressing the gun barrel firmly against the victim works too (I have read). Almost anything over the end of a barrel will decrease apparent sound levels somewhat, but silencers that produce maximum effect all look much the same.
- If you wondered what the inside of a silencer looks like, there's a manufacturer named Reflex Suppressors that turns up on Netscape Search. There's a picture on their site.
- In the US, making or posessing any unregistered silencer is big trouble - usual sentence is 18 months for first time offenders, with no other charges. Ouch! - MC

[Nickrz]

Of course, I realize what I just said is ridiculous.

[John W. Kennedy]

The plain fact is that most writers are pretty ignorant about most things. I've just been reading a 40's detective novel which involves a .38 Police Positive revolver which, declining to emulate the behavior of all other sorts of revolver, instead ejects the spent shell upon firing. Uh-huh.

Not to mention what passes for science on "Star Trek"....

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[Alan Q]

Don't forget projectile velocity-bullets generally are faster than sound; part of what you hear is actually a sonic boom. My father has an old Colt .32 pocket automatic (that was his dad's). One time I was shooting it with low powered shells, and it was quite quiet indeed. The problem with suppression through reduced velocity, however, is loss of power--those little buggers had trouble making it through the back side of a pop can!
--Alan Q

[DougC]

- - - Subsonic velocity is not a problem - every sporting goods store I have looked around in carried at least one brand for every major caliber. For centerfire rifles, you load your own. - MC

[DougC]

- - - Nuts - I meant to say, ". . for every major pistol caliber. - MC

[zuma]

howstuffworks.com had a bit on silencers:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question112.htm

An interesting site, Zuma. For some years, I have encountered people who believe revolvers are 'impossible' or 'not the best sort of pistol' for use with silencers, because everyone thinks of that gap between the cylinder and the inner end of the barrel. Let me suggest this:

The next time a documentary comes on about the space program, watch for a scene where a rocket (typically a Saturn 5) takes off (just listen for The Planets: Mars). Here's what you'll see. First, ignition. A gout of smoke and maybe even some flame, escaping from the bottom of the engine and squeezing up between the rocket and the gantry deck, rapidly spreading out. Then, the rocket begins to lift off. As it does, the exhaust plume gets closer to the gantry deck. Watch, and you'll see how the smoke gets sucked back down below the deck.

Something similar (although obviously not on such a scale or as clearly visible) happens as the bullet leaves the cylinder and fully enters the barrel -- there's still gas pressure behind it, but it's actually falling off somewhat from the maximum pressure it achieved as the powder ignited and just before the bullet began to move and broke free of the cannelure of the shell (where the casing is crimped slightly). As the bullet moves down the barrel, it's still accelerating, even as it overcomes the inertia of the air in the barrel in front of it, because although the gas pressure is actually starting to drop, the bullet continues to absorb gas momentum until fully exiting the barrel end. So, even as gas seeks to escape from the gap, there's also a slight counter-force which tends to minimize any sound. My main problem is with the residue blown all over the hands. If you wear disposable gloves of the proper type, then put them in a can of gasoline carried in your trunk, any residue will be dissolved and any internal fingerprints useless. Then you just toss them away. So, while I would personally certainly prefer an automatic, a revolver can still be adequately silenced if desired.

The most common type of cheap, disposable device is made from an in-line lawnmower muffler. These have a single, simple baffle plate across their middle. A half-inch hole, centered, drilled in this plate on a simple drill press (or even by placing it in a vice and drilling freehand), will produce a serviceable prototype.

Where most people go wrong is in attaching the homemade device. What you mainly need is a gun with enough barrel extending beyond the lower frame (such as in a revolver or, e.g., a P-38 automatic) to securely mount the device. Since most people have neither the skill nor the equipment to tap the barrel end, and it may be handy to have a registered weapon with an obviously untapped (i.e., presumably unsilenceable) barrel to show, the easiest way is to tightly wrap duct tape around the barrel until it fits snugly inside the muffler's opening. Using a high-speed cutting disk, you can cut four neat slits, evenly spaced, in the muffler's end-tube. Then you just add a simple hose-clamp to help tighten the tube around the duct-tape, carefully checking that the bullet path is precisely centered down the muffler body. Voila. Then, of course, it's always a good idea afterwards to run a few boxes of ammo through the gun (if you want to keep it), in order to change the ballistic markings.

Someday being such a student of crime novels is going to get me in trouble . . .

[Sofa King]

In my personal experience, a .22 long rifle cartridge fired through a twenty ounce plastic coke bottle filled with steel wool (with a channel down the center of the bottle) is just about as quiet as a similar rifle firing subsonic rat shot. The silencer is only good for two or three shots before it starts getting progressively louder. Accuracy is nonexistent.

[StrTrkr777]

Hey, JWK, don't even start on Star Trek, or we may have to take this to the pit.

Jeffery

[Inky]

Pretty creepy, Dif..

[Inky]

Not to steer this thread down an X-Files path (not a fan myself), whats the point of the smoking man using a revolving cylander ratcheting-chamber revolver-type sniper rile thingie as opposed to a small compact bolt action rifle ala "Day of the jackel" (the original).

[tracer]

Boris B wrote:

Speaking of movies, there is a gunsmith in The Godfather who leaves a revolver really loud so Michael will cow everyone he doesn't kill in that Italian restaurant.

I remember the scene. Michael is test-firing the revolver and comments, "Wow, that's loud".

I know Michael was ex-military and should have known all about how loud firearms normally are, but:

Once, I lifted off one side of my hearing protectors (essentially earmuffs) inside an indoor shooting range. At that instant, the guy in the lane next to me fired (either a .40 S&W or a .45 ACP semiautomatic pistol). The BANG was so loud it was physically painful. Trust me, ordinary firearms are loud, and wouldn't need any special modification to cow everybody in a restaurant.

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Visit the Internet Stellar Database at www.stellar-database.com (http://www.stellar-database.com)

[Boris B]

Inky:
I think they chose the Knight (I think it was the Revolver-Pistol but I could be wrong) because it looks cool. One of the advantages of the actual weapon is said to be decent rate of fire combined with no ejected cartridges to make noise and/or be left behind as evidence of the operation. I don't know if that mattered in this situation, as Smoking Man was shot from a different building.

tracer:
Part of the reason Michael might have been surprised at the loudness of the revolver, might have been the size of the room. I don't know if he would have used earplugs when training with military rifles (my dad didn't, but he was in the service in the 50s and I thought Michael got out in the 60s, when things might have been different). Anyway, I don't know how the revolver would compare to a .40 S&W since I didn't have a good guess what caliber it was ... possibly a .38 Special but possibly a .38 S&W or some kind of .32? Perhaps the gunsmith was just messing around, anyway.

[VegForLife]

The '60's? Did they re-make The Godfather already?

I don't remember the exact timeline, but Michael was out of the military in the forties or early fifties. I believe he joined up right after Pearl Harbor, but I'll have to watch the last scene of Godfather II to be sure.

Rich

[Boris B]

Oops. I never was really clear on the temporal setting of the Godfather, and it's been a long time since I've seen it. When I do my remake, I'll be sure to put in lots of contemporary music to telegraph the setting. So there will be a lot of Chubby Checker in the opening wedding seen, and plenty of Katrina and the Waves in Godfather III.

Micheal Corleone was a Captain in the Marine Corps during WW II.

Yes, it's possible to Suppress (not silence) a firearm. But not with something the size of a champagne bottle cork like the Men from U.N.C.L.E. had. How large the supressor has to be depends on how powerful the round is. I've read that an effective screw on supressor for an M-16 would have to be 18 inches long at least. And if you're going to be going around, trying to shoot silently, you'd better keep in mind the other sounds besides the 'blast', which is all a supressor suppresses anyway.

There's the sound of the bullet going supersonic (ok, sub sonic ammo takes care of that)

The sound of the shell casing hitting whatever it hits when it's ejected from the weapon. (bolt action rifle, no problem. Pistol, use your thinking cap)

The sound of the slide racking back and loading another round (see above comment about bolt action)

The ping of the firing pin striking the primer on the round.

Now, I'm not advising anyone reading this to experiment. There are very strict laws concerning suppressors. Once can legally own them by filling out the proper forms and paying the tax to the BATF. And I'm not going to comment that there are kits to temporarily convert a Colt Government Model 45 ACP to 22 Long rifle, or that I strongly suspect that the barrel from a Government Model 45 ACP would most likely fit with no modification into a Colt Officer's Model 45 ACP, thereby leaving maybe an inch or more of barrel extending past the bushing.



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Ranger Jeff
The Idol of American Youth

[radar ralf]

I have been following this thread for a little while and I have finally decided to add my comments. First of all, RJ is right about the BATF restrictions on firearms suppressors, but the tax is actually paid to the IRS. The red tape involves fingerprints, photo identification, and an interview with the senior law enforcement officer (or his designee) of your locale. Now then, the "kits" to convert a Colts Gov't Model 1911A1 from .45 ACP or .38 Super or 9mm to .22LR are just hardware that replaces some of the key components of the gun: barrel, slide, magazine, and in some cases, some of the smaller parts. The conversion is not "temporary" in the sense that it could be accomplished within a matter of minutes. But why would you consider this conversion if your goal was to make the gun more quiet - the .22LR round is supersonic, while the .45 ACP round is not. It is just as difficult to suppress a .22LR as it is to suppress a .45 ACP. The design of the Colts Officer's Model includes a 'flare' or 'bell' at the muzzle end of the barrel; this means that the barrel bushing and 'lock-up' is different from a Gov't Model - I have never considered using a standard 5" Gov't barrel and Gov't barrel bushing in an Officer's Model (instead of the 3.5" barrel and special barrel bushing), but I'll check and get back to you on that one. To prevent the case from making noise as it is ejected, and to eliminate the sound of the mechanical operation, it is common to install a 'slide stop' lever which locks up the slide and essentially makes the gun a 'single shot'. I would think that the 'ping' of the firing pin would be so inconsequential that we can ignore it as a source of recognizable sound. Of course, when you begin to discuss firearms that are intended to fire several rounds in succession in semi-automatic or automatic mode, the rules all change. For a good idea of what a suppressed, fully-automatic platform would actually look like, check out the movie "McQ", starring John Wayne.

Radar Ralph said:For a good idea of what a suppressed, fully-automatic platform would actually look like, check out the movie "McQ", starring John Wayne.

Thanks for your points on the gov/officers model. And for a look at a suppressed, full-auto platform, do a web search for Heckler & Koch and look at the MP-5 SD2

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Ranger Jeff
The Idol of American Youth

[Sam Stone]

As I recall, McQ was very accurate in depicting a silenced MAC-10, including the fact that on full auto the clip doesn't last very long. I'm awfully tired of movies showing guys firing 30 second sustained bursts from their Uzis.

[radar ralf]

I highly recommend a video entitled: "Deadly Weapons". It can be found for rent in some gun stores and sporting goods stores. This video is basically a training movie for law enforcement officers, but a lot of firearms misconceptions are discussed. Among the more informative parts of the movie are the use of 'silenced' or suppressed firearms, demonstrations to show the real-life performance of various calibers, demonstrations of full-auto weapons, and a realistic approach to self-protection apparel. Running time is about 100 minutes and this movie is entertaining as well as informative.

[radar ralf]

RJ: Sorry about the mis-statement on my part. What I should have said was, "For a good idea of what a suppressed, fully-automatic platform would actually look and sound like,...etc." There are lots of pictures of the various weapons available, but the movie gives a fairly accurate depiction of the Ingram MAC-10 in operation.

[John W. Kennedy]

Since the men from U.N.C.L.E. use non-lethal knockout bullets, they obviously don't have much in the way of muzzle velocity, since a "non-lethal bullet" travelling at Mach 1 isn't very non-lethal.


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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams