Explain the Ramones to me [edited title]

[The Great Sun Jester]

They sound like a crap garage band, and their lyrics are uninspired. Seriously, what is the appeal?

[zoid]

Link?
Google gives me nothing but the Ramones.

[Tim R. Mortiss]

Assuming you mean The Ramones, you need to consider them in context of their time. They were a reaction against the overproduced corporate rock product being spoon-fed to us in the mid seventies.

[zoid]

:D
I actually thought there was a new band I'd never heard of called the Ram Ones
:smack:

[blondebear]

Rock, rock, rock, rock, rock and roll high ewe!

[UFC Is Sux]

A garage band sponsored by Dodge Trucks?

hehehehehe ...

[Maserschmidt]

They sounded nothing like what we were hearing at the time.

[Snowboarder Bo]

The Ramones were and are the distilled essence of everything good about every garage band that ever existed before them. Plus they played fast: 3 chords, no waiting.

As for their lyrics being "uninspired", they are no more and no less inspired than the shitty bubblegum pop that so permeated the airwaves in the 60s and early 70s. Joey's songs ironically are the more socially relevant ones lyrically (Joey was a tremendous fan of bubblegum pop), while Dee Dee's songs are more like what some twisted speed freak might have sung while walking to the drive-in movie concession stand.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Sorry for the typo, I don't generally go in for cheap insults by misspelling names.

So ok, like the Beatles, Elvis and Air Supply, their music wouldn't sell today. Can I get more detail about them as iconoclasts then? If I can put them into context I could grow to at least appreciate, if not like, their music.

[drastic_quench]

Sorry for the typo, I don't generally go in for cheap insults by misspelling names.

So ok, like the Beatles, Elvis and Air Supply, their music wouldn't sell today. Can I get more detail about them as iconoclasts then? If I can put them into context I could grow to at least appreciate, if not like, their music.

WTF? The Beatles and Elvis would totally sell today. They might not rule the world, but they would be A-list.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Sorry for the typo, I don't generally go in for cheap insults by misspelling names.

So ok, like the Beatles, Elvis and Air Supply, their music wouldn't sell today. Can I get more detail about them as iconoclasts then? If I can put them into context I could grow to at least appreciate, if not like, their music.

Actually, The Ramones sell about as many albums in a year now as they ever did. Their live shows were the shiznit, tho, and they made a good bit of money off their merch.

What do you want to know about them? Johnny and Dee Dee met in high school and became fast friends in the way that only fellow outcasts can. When they were about 22-23 they were both living shitty lives and Johnny talked Dee Dee into starting a band. Johnny and Tommy had played together in high school, and Joey was a guy who sang for a local band that they knew. They recruited him and playing and writing songs.

Their image was deliberate, as was their last name (they all took it as a show of solidarity).

Their gigs were loud, fast, and fun just like their music.

I can highly recommend End Of The Century: The Story of The Ramones (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368711/) if you want to know about the band, hear some of their music and see first hand (if a little ex post facto) the complex dynamics involved in making a band work. People unfamiliar with the band, which performed and recorded for 22 years (virtually non-stop, too) may not know of all the in-fighting and personal dislike that existed.

This is one of my favorite bands, so if you have more specific things you want to know, feel free to ask; I'll do my best to answer

[Shakester]

Musical tastes are not bound by logic. One person hears a shitty garage band who couldn't play their instruments and another hears "the distilled essence of everything good about every garage band that ever existed before them".

I'm firmly in the second category; the Ramones were brilliant, though like a lot of bands that came up with a brilliant formula it wore thin over the years and their later work is pretty forgettable. Even so, their contribution to rock'n'roll was large and important, and at their best they were simply the epitome of what they did.

Now, there's no way to make a person get that. If you're the sort of person that doesn't get raw and unrefined things like the dirtier end of rock music, then no amount of explanation will ever make you get it. It is, truly, something you either get or you don't.

There's no shame or failure in not getting something; nobody gets everything. There are fields of creative endeavour that leave me cold and unmoved. I have no idea why people listen to some of the things they do, but I am forced to acknowledge that some people get stuff that I don't. Opera being a good example: I understand that it's good and valuable music that is very rewarding to the people that like it, it just sounds like hideous caterwauling in foreign languages to me. That's fine, I'm just not cut out to enjoy opera.

Where this becomes problematic is that there is a large percentage of people who believe that anything they personally don't get is a scam. A lot of people think they're very clever by pointing out that "the emperor wears no clothes" - "nobody really likes godawful unmusical rackets like the Ramones, hipsters just pretend to like them because it's hip."

When you run into that sort of opinion, you know you've met an idiot. The Ramones were great, but their greatness is not for everyone. Nobody pleases everyone.

[The Great Sun Jester]

I hope I didn't come off as a hater. I'm simply not an understander in this case. They're not my thing, but I'm curious as to what the appeal was over, say, any other garage band. In resoponse to Tim's post above, I'd say they almost sound professionally underproduced. But I've not been to one of their concerts, and I don't and can't (now) know them within the context of when they were doing their thing. That's what I'm wanting help with. Because it's an individual aesthetics thing, maybe I could get a handle on it if fans could say what they like about what the band did.

[Tim R. Mortiss]

I've been to more than a few of their concerts. What is most apparent is the tongue-in-cheek vibe going on. They are winking at the audience as they are flipping the bird at the record industry. Alas, the chance of any more Ramones concerts happening in the future is a very, very slim probability.

Along with the excellent documentary recommended by Snowboarder Bo, I suggest you check out a DVD of "Rock and Roll High School." It is a fictional movie about them, but it does a good job of capturing the vibe.

[Nava]

I hope I didn't come off as a hater. I'm simply not an understander in this case. They're not my thing, but I'm curious as to what the appeal was over, say, any other garage band. In resoponse to Tim's post above, I'd say they almost sound professionally underproduced.

Then you understand more than you think: they were underproduced as a reaction to the overproduction of the time, but this was partly visceral, partly a stylistic choice and partly at the start a simple lack of money (and, according to a paraphrased quote from I can't recall which one, of skill "we played three notes because that was all we knew how to play"); once they started bringing money in, they could have gotten more "packaged" if they'd wanted to - but they didn't. Playing like they did worked, they enjoyed it, so they saw no reason to try and sound like somebody else.

I think of Nirvana as "the Ramones, 30 years later". Both of them were groups which opened a drawer of the music box which had previously been closed (that doesn't mean they were the only ones doing what they did, but they were the ones the world noticed), and both of them did it partly in reaction to overproduction.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Alas, the chance of any more Ramones concerts happening in the future is a very, very slim probability.

Since everybody but Tommy and Markie are dead, yeah, super-slim. ;)

[madsircool]

Then you understand more than you think: they were underproduced as a reaction to the overproduction of the time, but this was partly visceral, partly a stylistic choice and partly at the start a simple lack of money (and, according to a paraphrased quote from I can't recall which one, of skill "we played three notes because that was all we knew how to play"); once they started bringing money in, they could have gotten more "packaged" if they'd wanted to - but they didn't. Playing like they did worked, they enjoyed it, so they saw no reason to try and sound like somebody else.

I think of Nirvana as "the Ramones, 30 years later". Both of them were groups which opened a drawer of the music box which had previously been closed (that doesn't mean they were the only ones doing what they did, but they were the ones the world noticed), and both of them did it partly in reaction to overproduction.

Nirvana is the Ramones 13 years later.

[Tim R. Mortiss]

Since everybody but Tommy and Markie are dead, yeah, super-slim. ;)

For many bands, only the drummer is dead. For the Ramones, everyone but the various drummers are dead!

[Snowboarder Bo]

Because it's an individual aesthetics thing, maybe I could get a handle on it if fans could say what they like about what the band did.

Okay, I'll try and give you some things that we all (those of use who heard them in the 1970s) thought (& liked), and some things I personally thought (& liked):

1. The songs were good songs. Standard, simple pop song form (verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus) with repetitive lyrics, but played ultra-fast with seriously raunchy sounding guitar and equally raw vocals.

2. They presented a unified visual image, but unlike standard groups, it wasn't suits or nice clothes; it was ripped jeans, Converse (Chuck Taylor All Stars) sneakers, t-shirts and leather jackets... it was pretty much the same clothes that they wore growing up, when they were outcasts/juvenile delinquents/lower middle class kids. It was something we all could relate to because we all had at least 3 of the 4 things in our own wardrobe. Gabba gabba we accept you we accept you one of us!

3. It was obvious from the start that they weren't any of them virtuosos. But, because their songs were so good, we all listened anyway. This led a LOT of people to realize that, hey, fuck, I could probably learn to play 3 chords; why the fuck aren't I starting a band (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcqzssIGjZ1qexjpa.jpg)?

4. Rock music at the time of their first album (1976) was moving into ever-more-pretentious territory as real virtuosos adopted rock and roll as their way to make a living. The Ramones cast all that aside and in both image and product reduced everything to it's most basic level: 4 guys wailing because it was fun to do, regardless of how much money they were gonna make or whether or not anyone with "class" liked what they did. The Ramones just didn't give a shit what you thought of them (unless you liked them, of course).

Those are the basics, anyway.

I know the first time I heard them, I laughed hysterically at the lyrics "beat on the brat with a baseball bat; what can you do-oooooooh? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HUGeA2lur4)" because it was just so over the top. It was like somebody else doing a total rock and roll version of Mama Get The Hammer, There's A Fly On The Baby's Head (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHzh0psXnLg). It's mien was as raw in it's limited lyrics as it was in it's musical content and execution, and it grabbed hold and did not let go. So many of their songs are this way, with their simple but earnest melodies, that nearly half of every album was an ICE.

The flip side was the serious bubblegum stuff, the stuff that Joey wrote: I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS8oYNK73Ek) being the perfect example, in my opinion. Joey was a huge fan of Phil Spector and the girl groups he produced. I mean a HUGE fan; he liked everything about them: the music, the melodies, the Wall Of Sound production, the harmonies, the repressed sexuality, everything. And IMO, he nailed it right out of the gate; Joey had an uncanny ability to channel that same sound and feeling.

Now, keep in mind that back then, there was no way to see this band without actually physically going to a show. They weren't gonna get invited on a TV show, ya know what I'm saying'?

Anyway, when you saw them live, what you saw were those same 4 guys from the album cover, only it seemed that every song, every single song, started with Dee Dee yelling "1-2-3-4!" and then the band would gleefully churn their way thru each 2 minute song at skull-crushing volume.

If you watch Rock 'n' Roll High School (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079813/), you'll see it during the concert part of the movie.

And over 22 years, none of this really never changed: every song started off with that same insanely fast "1-2-3-4!" count. Everybody wore the same clothes. Every song was simple, loud, fast, and fun. Most of all, tho, it was without pretensions and accessible on so many levels for so many of us, that we embraced the band because we knew deep down that they truly were (gabba gabba we accept you we accept you) one of us.

[Marley23]

Sorry for the typo, I don't generally go in for cheap insults by misspelling names.
Fixed it.

[Shakester]

Okay, I'll try and give you some things that we all (those of use who heard them in the 1970s) thought (& liked), and some things I personally thought (& liked)...

Good post.

What you left out is that the Ramones have also been a huge influence on every later generation of rock music as well.

The basic fact of the Ramones is that they managed to reduce rock music down to its very essence. It is easy to play 3 chord songs, any idiot can do it... however, it's practically impossible to be great at it. We remember the Ramones' songs because they're great melodies and great performances. They're inspired.

There have been a million groups that tried to capture the Ramones' spirit, and every single one of them has failed. (Artistically, that is; plenty of groups have made a lot of money by prettifying the Ramones' style.)

[Little Nemo]

The Ramones were founded in 1974.

Here are some of the top hits of 1974:

"Annie's Song" by John Denver
"Beach Baby" by The First Class
"Billy Don't Be a Hero" by Paper Lace
"The Entertainer" by Marvin Hamlisch
"Get Dancin'" by Disco-Tex and the Sex-O-Lettes
"Haven't Got Time for the Pain" by Carly Simon
"Hooked on a Feeling" by Blue Swede
"I Honestly Love You" by Olivia Newton-John
"I'm Leaving It All Up to You" by Donny and Marie Osmond
"Jungle Boogie" by Kool & the Gang
"Kung Fu Fighting" by Carl Douglas
"Midnight at the Oasis" by Maria Muldaur
"The Night Chicago Died" by Paper Lace
"Please Come to Boston" by Dave Loggins
"Rock Me Gently" by Andy Kim
"Rock the Boat" by Hues Corporation
"Rock Your Baby" by George McCrae
"Seasons in the Sun" by Terry Jacks
"The Show Must Go On" by Leo Sayer
"Stop and Smell the Roses" by Mac Davis
"The Streak" by Ray Stevens
"Tell Me Something Good" by Rufus
"Waterloo" by Abba
"(You're) Having My Baby" by Paul Anka & Odia Coates

Now some of these were catchy tunes. But the overall feeling was that Rock, which had been exciting in the sixties, had settled down and become Pop in the seventies. Music had lost its edge and become safe.

The Ramones basically brought the don't-give-a-fuck attitude back to Rock.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Good post.Thanks!

What you left out is that the Ramones have also been a huge influence on every later generation of rock music as well.

Well, I figured that went without saying. I mean, they were (without a doubt in my mind) the first punk rock band. Without them, there is no Sex Pistols, no Clash, no Damned, possibly even no Motörhead :eek:! There's a whole huge avalanche effect that wouldn't have taken place, and punk and metal might not have ever quite come about. That's how important they are to rock music.

But I just kind of figgered everyone already knew that. :D

The basic fact of the Ramones is that they managed to reduce rock music down to its very essence. It is easy to play 3 chord songs, any idiot can do it... however, it's practically impossible to be great at it. We remember the Ramones' songs because they're great melodies and great performances. They're inspired.

There have been a million groups that tried to capture the Ramones' spirit, and every single one of them has failed. (Artistically, that is; plenty of groups have made a lot of money by prettifying the Ramones' style.)

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that every single one of them failed (I think it's a fun discussion that could be had, with no real conclusion either way), but I think it's fair to say that the Ramones were the base that everyone else built on, not because they necessarily wanted to but simply because it's almost impossible to distill rock down any further than the Ramones already had.

[Nom_de_Plume]

I believe Billy, Don't Be a Hero was by Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods

[aruvqan]

The Ramones were founded in 1974.

Here are some of the top hits of 1974:

"Annie's Song" by John Denver
"Beach Baby" by The First Class
"Billy Don't Be a Hero" by Paper Lace
"The Entertainer" by Marvin Hamlisch
"Get Dancin'" by Disco-Tex and the Sex-O-Lettes
"Haven't Got Time for the Pain" by Carly Simon
"Hooked on a Feeling" by Blue Swede
"I Honestly Love You" by Olivia Newton-John
"I'm Leaving It All Up to You" by Donny and Marie Osmond
"Jungle Boogie" by Kool & the Gang
"Kung Fu Fighting" by Carl Douglas
"Midnight at the Oasis" by Maria Muldaur
"The Night Chicago Died" by Paper Lace
"Please Come to Boston" by Dave Loggins
"Rock Me Gently" by Andy Kim
"Rock the Boat" by Hues Corporation
"Rock Your Baby" by George McCrae
"Seasons in the Sun" by Terry Jacks
"The Show Must Go On" by Leo Sayer
"Stop and Smell the Roses" by Mac Davis
"The Streak" by Ray Stevens
"Tell Me Something Good" by Rufus
"Waterloo" by Abba
"(You're) Having My Baby" by Paul Anka & Odia Coates

Now some of these were catchy tunes. But the overall feeling was that Rock, which had been exciting in the sixties, had settled down and become Pop in the seventies. Music had lost its edge and become safe.

The Ramones basically brought the don't-give-a-fuck attitude back to Rock.
Sweet Jumping Jebus, I remember that summer soundtrack ... I was 13 and that fall sent off to school in France. :smack:

I can remember seeing the Ramones in NY in 78/79 and again in um... 83. I liked the music of the original punk movement in the US because as was posted it was hard and fast, fun to bop around to in a crowd of other people who wanted to be there having fun bopping around. I remember gimping in to school or work the next day covered with bruises and an occasional black eye. There were a lot of people that were like me that were not into heavy drug use - unfortunately punk got associated with heavy drug use and violence and mainstream rock ended up being the huge success.

[Shakester]

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that every single one of them failed (I think it's a fun discussion that could be had, with no real conclusion either way), but I think it's fair to say that the Ramones were the base that everyone else built on, not because they necessarily wanted to but simply because it's almost impossible to distill rock down any further than the Ramones already had.

Apart from the Buzzcocks, I can't think of another punk-pop band that has lasting value in the way the Ramones do.

Plenty of music that owes something to the influence of the Ramones is great, but in the specific subgenre they defined, there's the Ramones, the Buzzcocks, and a horde of uninspired imitators.

[bienville]

Something that always gets left out of these discussions . . .
. . . they were good.

Not "good" as in "I like them, so they're good" but good as in they were really good musicians.

The simple song structure is held up both to celebrate them as well as to criticize them: "They were awesome! Sure the songs are simple but the rawness is what makes it appealing!" "They suck! They just repetitively pound their way through the same few chords!" Both this kind of praise and this kind of criticism are misplaced.

The genre could be said to be simple, but what all the punk bands that rise above the pack have in common is that they were tight. When everyone in the band is pounding down on eighth notes you will notice when someone is off. "Close enough for jazz" does not apply to punk rock. Compare a good punk band with a crappy punk band- this is the difference.

Ever hear a crappy punk band? They suck. I mean they really suck. It's unlistenable.

The punk bands that are held up as the best are made up of great musicians. The Ramones, The Clash, The Damned, The Dead Kennedys, X, The Sex Pistols (yes, Sid Vicious sucked- he was window dressing: think of the power trio of Matlock, Jones, and Cook). These bands didn't accidentally rise to the top. They didn't rise to the top based on image. They rose to the top because they were the best of the genre, they were good musicians.

I defy you to find a great guitarist who doesn't hold Johnny Ramone and Steve Jones in high esteem.

The style was raw and simple, but the execution was deft, precise, and transcendent.

[campp]

Glorious hard garage rock. Time to dance with your tribe.

At the beginning of every song, Joey would yell 1, 2, 3, 4! And the band would explode :D

[WordMan]

Something that always gets left out of these discussions . . .
. . . they were good.

I defy you to find a great guitarist who doesn't hold Johnny Ramone and Steve Jones in high esteem.


Just coming to this thread - wow, great stuff covered - no surprise to see Bo and Shakester leading the way.

a few thoughts:

- what bienville said - Johnny Ramone, as a guitarist, is FAR more influential than pretty much every other rock guitarists other than Chuck Berry, Clapton, Hendrix, Page and Eddie Van Halen.

- His "all downstrokes, all the time" rhythm style was NOT just simple shit - it was part of the Ramones master plan. To hear Tommy, their drummer and co-producer of their first record, they loved the catchy pop songs of Motown, girl groups and the bubble gum, but wanted them grittier and also, they couldn't afford the costs to use all of the instruments of a Phil Spector/Wall of Sound type of production (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhbGaCwBzs) (youtube link to the Ronette's Be My Baby). So The Ramones used that thick, relentless, downstroke-driven guitar sound to be ALL of the instruments you would hear in a Phil Spector production. That approach to the guitar "took up all the harmonic space" filled by horns, marimbas, string arrangements - all the stuff in a Spector Wall of Sound.

- The songs are excellent and the hooks memorable. Once exposed, we all know the hooks from Rockaway Beach (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6siGKxcKol0)and Sheena is a Punk Rocker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nlX7P0nhaI)without thinking about it. That's a lot harder than it sounds.

Per Shakester, if they aren't for you, totally cool - but there is a whole lot there if you take the time to look. The book Please Kill Me: An Uncensored Oral History of Punk has some great stuff on the. Per Bo, the documentary End of the Century is an excellent history of the band.

Here's my story about that documentary: My band was setting up at a restaurant-that-becomes-a-club just above NYC in Westchester County. I was wearing my Ramones t-shirt. As I am setting up, a few folks walk by, including a very nice old lady. After they sit down, she gets up to do something and then wanders over to us.

In a delightful old-Jewish-grandma sort of voice, she says "So? You like this band?" gesturing to my t-shirt. "The Ramones?" I say "sure! They are one of my favorites." "And you know this movie that just came out?" Now, the documentary had come out, and gotten great reviews, but it wasn't like it got much press, but sure, I had heard of it and went out of my way to see it.

So I reply "Oh, you mean End of the Century? Yes, I just saw it - it was great."

She stands up a bit straighter looks me in the eye and says "my son directed it - I'll go get him!" and walks away. I happened to recall that the director was listed as Jim Fields. Jim Fields was here?! Sure enough, the lady comes back dragging a mid-40's, kinda shlumpy guy with a beard over my direction, saying "come on, Jimmy, he knows the movie!" and Jim muttering "aw, ma - don't do this!"

Classic.

Fields must get this from his mother regularly, only to realize that the people she set him in front of barely know The Ramones, let alone the movie. But I went up, shook his hand, told him the documentary was great and cited a few things about it I really liked. He brightened up - "hey, you actually know it?"

We talked for a few minutes and he went back to his meal. Hilarious.

Although they got some hype, especially when punk got "dangerous" with UK scene, The Ramones were far more influential than they ever were famous. With Joey's mental condition (very aggressive OCD and other stuff - as his brother states in the documentary, they didn't know if he could even live a normal life. My bassist played the same bill with them a few times - loaned Dee Dee his bass when Dee Dee didn't show up with his ;) a couple of times - and describes the band having to wait while Joey counted the stairs backstage and went through all of his rituals) - I am surprised they got as far as they did.

But The Ramones were the second coming of Chuck Berry - they took the popular music of the day, stripped it down to its melodic essence and used the electric guitar to completely change the arrangements, yielding a big, full sound.

[Slithy Tove]

The Ramones were founded in 1974.

Here are some of the top hits of 1974:
-snip-
Now some of these were catchy tunes. But the overall feeling was that Rock, which had been exciting in the sixties, had settled down and become Pop in the seventies. Music had lost its edge and become safe.

The Ramones basically brought the don't-give-a-fuck attitude back to Rock.

That's not fair: Before album-oriented rock stations appeared in the 70's, it was only worse. Go look back at the late 60's and you'll find that the airwaves were and empire of Bubblegum and the Cowsills and bullshit "Jazz-Rock Fusion"* etc. Top 40 was always LCD, it is now, and it always will be. In 1974, Karen Carpenter was a constant noise, but you'd have to be told about the Ramones, or Iggy Pop, or even old-timers like Zappa, and then go hunt around for their music.


* "Jazz-Rock?" notice how when Miles Davis (whom himself you never heard in the 50's for all the clandelabra music being played) became interested in Rock, he didn't invite Chigaco or Blood Sweat & Tears into the studio.

[WordMan]

Slithy, I hear what you are saying, but go easy on Karen Carpenter - that poor girl had one of the best voices in pop, alongside Dusty Springfield.

[Jim's Son]

One thing about them is they seem to have been a favorite of critics, or at least many of them, from the beginning. I remember in the early 1980s Creem magazine reprinted their reviews of the first few albums and the first one was greeted with "If the next four Ramones albums are half as good, we are set for life". New York disc jockey Vin scelsa tells of playing their first record on air, hating it and throwing it across the room, only to listen to it overnight and the next day telling his listeners that he was wrong, it was great.
As others have said, they came out when popular music was drab, many people (critics especially) felt groups like Emerson, lake and Palmer were too bloated. Paul was writing silly love songs, John Ono Lennon was in the middle of a five year period of not making music. The Rolling Stones, once the epitome of dangerous youth, were jet setters. Disco was very popular and seemed too mechanical. Rock likes the have the myth of youthful rebellion. the Rolling Stone Music Guide of 1980 said "the Ramones know only one pace-accelerated, their material is puerile and inane and the singer isn't very tuneful. The result is they are great, the embodiment of the passion and soul of rock and roll when it has nearly died out". I think the original "Nuggets" album of 1960s garage bands that was compiled by Patti Smith guitarist/rock critic Lenny Kaye may have set the stage in making critics feel this kind of amateurish music was great.

Whether any group of critics can make a group successful is debatable. But I think they can help at times.

It may not hurt that lots of sporting events feel it is necessary to be pumping out music when the action is stopped and "Blitzkrieg Pop" can get audiences going.

In their own way the Ramones may be like the Three Stooges of the 1930s and 1940s. They didn't sell many records at the time (The Stooges were stuck making shorts) but their influence and fame kept growing slowly.

[bienville]

* "Jazz-Rock?" notice how when Miles Davis (whom himself you never heard in the 50's for all the clandelabra music being played) became interested in Rock, he didn't invite Chigaco or Blood Sweat & Tears into the studio.

Don't want to hijack the thread, so let's not get into a discussion, but if you could point me in the right direction: On what Miles Davis projects did he collaborate with Rock musicians? Which Rock musicians? I'd like to learn more.

[Baal Houtham]

I'm not a big fan, think they're closer to 1960s Mad Magazine than to Nirvana, and don't think their relentless primitivism was a virture -- but they put out some songs I like.

Their sorta hit was Sheena Is a Punk Rocker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nlX7P0nhaI&feature=related) and it's a fine rock song with good lyrics. If you don't care for it, you probably won't like the Ramones much.

Other good songs with fun lyrics:
I Wanna Be Sedated (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-EKcjpEIGo) which frequently plays in my head when I'm waiting for some big event, like a playoff game.

Rock and Roll High School (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnzzMZWsx9w)

[WordMan]

I'm not a big fan, think they're closer to 1960s Mad Magazine than to Nirvana

You say this like it's a bad thing - it's not! That's them exactly, if you toss in a bit of girl group pop ;)

(sorry to nit, Jim's Son, but it's Blitzkrieg Bop - they wrote the "Hey, ho - let's go!" chant after seeing the hit that the Bay City Rollers had with their chant-driven song Saturday Night...)

ETA: what's kinda funny about this, is that they were a NY band that was never huge but hugely influential - similar to The Velvet Underground. But whereas the VU wanted to be all edgy and obscure, writing about herion and S&M and with different sounds and styles, the Ramones were steeped in pop and pop-culture and wanted to write hummable, famous songs.

Remember, Cobain ripped the Teen Spirit riff off of Boston's More Than a Feeling. There is something to be said for having a great pop sensibility...

[msmith537]

So ok, like the Beatles, Elvis and Air Supply, their music wouldn't sell today. Can I get more detail about them as iconoclasts then? If I can put them into context I could grow to at least appreciate, if not like, their music.

Yeah, no one really likes that punk rock sound anymore. I mean other than a few exceptions like Green Day, Blink 182, Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, Sum 41, Weezer, Good Charlotte, 30 Seconds to Mars, maybe a couple of others.

It's not like anyone listens to The Beatles anymore.

[don't ask]

Slithy, I hear what you are saying, but go easy on Karen Carpenter - that poor girl had one of the best voices in pop, alongside Dusty Springfield.

There you go, now you're getting silly, how could you compare Karen Carpenter to Dusty Springfield? KC could sing OK but Dusty Springfield was in an entirely different league.

[WordMan]

There you go, now you're getting silly, how could you compare Karen Carpenter to Dusty Springfield? KC could sing OK but Dusty Springfield was in an entirely different league.

Glad you love Dusty - she clearly deserves it. But so does Karen Carpenter. Worthy of another thread...

...and here I was afraid you were going to invoke Aretha or something and really spin these comparisons out of control ;)

[don't ask]

Well see I think you are wrong there too. Ella sits at the head of all female vocals.

Maybe you're right - this needs a thread of its own. Lead on!

[WordMan]

Well see I think you are wrong there too. Ella sits at the head of all female vocals.

Maybe you're right - this needs a thread of its own. Lead on!

Hmm, lemme ponder the thread concept. I will say that Ella is to her category as Aretha is to hers, Mahalia Jackson to hers, Bessie Smith to hers, etc...no need to scrap one in support of the other...

[Slithy Tove]

Glad you love Dusty - she clearly deserves it. But so does Karen Carpenter.

Perhaps if KC had become one of Burt Bacharach's muses, instead of her brother's Trilby (http://scootermoviesshop.com/cubecart/images/uploads/Svengali.jpg), she'd be alive today.

Tieing it all back to the OP: Richard Carpenter proves that just as much as safety & sugariness, (and bienville's excellent observation above notwithstanding) technical proficiency and musicianship can dull the edges of Rock after a certain point, past which your'e listening to Yacht Rock. To their credit the Ramones never went anywhere near there, even when Phil Spector threatened them at gunpoint.

[RealityChuck]

The Ramones were founded in 1974.

Here are some of the top hits of 1974:

"Annie's Song" by John Denver
"Beach Baby" by The First Class
"Billy Don't Be a Hero" by Paper Lace
"The Entertainer" by Marvin Hamlisch
"Get Dancin'" by Disco-Tex and the Sex-O-Lettes
"Haven't Got Time for the Pain" by Carly Simon
"Hooked on a Feeling" by Blue Swede
"I Honestly Love You" by Olivia Newton-John
"I'm Leaving It All Up to You" by Donny and Marie Osmond
"Jungle Boogie" by Kool & the Gang
"Kung Fu Fighting" by Carl Douglas
"Midnight at the Oasis" by Maria Muldaur
"The Night Chicago Died" by Paper Lace
"Please Come to Boston" by Dave Loggins
"Rock Me Gently" by Andy Kim
"Rock the Boat" by Hues Corporation
"Rock Your Baby" by George McCrae
"Seasons in the Sun" by Terry Jacks
"The Show Must Go On" by Leo Sayer
"Stop and Smell the Roses" by Mac Davis
"The Streak" by Ray Stevens
"Tell Me Something Good" by Rufus
"Waterloo" by Abba
"(You're) Having My Baby" by Paul Anka & Odia Coates

Now some of these were catchy tunes. But the overall feeling was that Rock, which had been exciting in the sixties, had settled down and become Pop in the seventies. Music had lost its edge and become safe.

The Ramones basically brought the don't-give-a-fuck attitude back to Rock.A misleading list. Top 40 was reviled by most rock fans in 1974; it was for preteens. Once you reached high school, the album and college radio was what people were listening to. At that point, theserious music fan listened to the Who, Led Zeppelin, the Allman Brothers Band, Bruce Springsteen, Alice Cooper, and the Rolling Stones.

This doesn't take away from the Ramones, who wrote good, funny songs that defined garage band as a genre (it existed, but wasn't classified as a type of music)

[Nunzio Tavulari]

A misleading list. Top 40 was reviled by most rock fans in 1974; it was for preteens. Once you reached high school, the album and college radio was what people were listening to. At that point, the serious music fan listened to the Who, Led Zeppelin, the Allman Brothers Band, Bruce Springsteen, Alice Cooper, and the Rolling Stones.
All of whom sucked by 1975, with the exception of Springsteen who had just released Born To Run. And he quickly disappeared from most playlists because legal issues prevented him from releasing new albums.

The OP may think The Ramones sound like any other garage rock band, but garage rock bands hadn't sounded like that for a decade. They were all either pop bands with a singer/songwriter frontman or overblown glam-metal. I enter Aerosmith as evidence, your honor.

I was there on the front lines. I managed the bands, I played the radio, AM and FM. I saw the Ramones before they had an album or had a reputation outside of CBGB's. We thought they sucked so bad we wanted to jump them in the parking lot. They ran through all their songs so fast that they had to repeat them in order to play a second set. But a week later, the riffs were still going through my head and I realized that we were wrong and had witnessed rock being seized back from those West Coast wimps.

[Zebra]

The Ramones were founded in 1974.

Here are some of the top hits of 1974:
<snip>.


The horror


The horror...





We need change, we need it fast
Before rock's just part of the past
'Cause lately it all sounds the same to me

[WordMan]

All of whom sucked by 1975, with the exception of Springsteen who had just released Born To Run. And he quickly disappeared from most playlists because legal issues prevented him from releasing new albums.

The OP may think The Ramones sound like any other garage rock band, but garage rock bands hadn't sounded like that for a decade. They were all either pop bands with a singer/songwriter frontman or overblown glam-metal. I enter Aerosmith as evidence, your honor.

I was there on the front lines. I managed the bands, I played the radio, AM and FM. I saw the Ramones before they had an album or had a reputation outside of CBGB's. We thought they sucked so bad we wanted to jump them in the parking lot. They ran through all their songs so fast that they had to repeat them in order to play a second set. But a week later, the riffs were still going through my head and I realized that we were wrong and had witnessed rock being seized back from those West Coast wimps.

Nice post. Punk cred claimed. Is that how everyone felt? Did you see Television there (if so, tell us everything!). Did they play fast, too?

[Typo Negative]

I Wanna be Sedated is one of the greatest rock and roll songs ever. The Ramones will live forever because of it.

Seriously.

[Spoons]

I believe Billy, Don't Be a Hero was by Bo Donaldson and the HeywoodsPaper Lace did the version that was released in the UK, and Bo Donaldson et al. did the version released in the US and Canada. Cite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Don%27t_Be_a_Hero) from Wikipedia:

Paper Lace's version of "Billy Don't Be a Hero" hit number one on the UK singles chart on March 16 1974. The band made plans to release it in America but the song was covered and released by Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods. Their version was rushed out before Paper Lace could release and it hit number 1 on the Billboard Hot 100 on June 15 and number 1 in Canada on July 7. Subsequently although Paper Lace had the chart-topper in the UK, its version stalled at #96 on the Billboard Hot 100. The Bo Donaldson version failed to chart at all in the UK....

[Jackmannii]

It's like trying to tell a stranger about rock n' roll.

[devilsknew]

I think as a sound and zeitgeist you really can't seperate Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, The Ramones, and perhaps their most kindred rock brethren AC/DC, as well as Led Zeppelin from this mix and sonically charged time in grunge and reach to roots. Peterpan Speedrock vs. Zeke.

They sounded like they were fom the 90's in the 70's. Maybe they set it all off, that to come...

[devilsknew]

I think as a sound and zeitgeist you really can't seperate Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, The Ramones, and perhaps their most kindred rock brethren AC/DC, as well as Led Zeppelin from this mix and sonically charged time in grunge and reach to roots.

I think Rick Rubin finally Crystalized this Punk Grunge Goth with 87's Electric (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=The+cult+electric&oq=The+cult+electric&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5198l5198l0l6236l1l1l0l0l0l0l375l375l3-1l1l0).

[brujaja]

Why, Inigo! I'm surprised at you!

I would have thought surely someone who once contemplated swallowing a "magic-grow" octopus for science would "get" The Ramones. :D


Foe me personally, it was the scene in "Rock 'n' Roll High School" where he sings "I Want You Around." It was one of the hottest things I've ever seen! (And also "I Just Want To Have Something To Do.") I came out of the theater no longer a hippie. Thank God!

[bienville]

Foe me personally, it was the scene in "Rock 'n' Roll High School" where he sings "I Want You Around."

Mmmmmm, P.J. Soles in the shower . . .

That scene is so hot, that even though she is either clothed or wrapped in a towel for the whole scene, my revisionist memory had me convinced that she bared her breasts. When I saw the movie again, I believed I was seeing an edited version and took it upon myself to seek out the "real" version where you actually see her breasts. Nope. The bare breasts version never existed- it's just that the scene was powerful enough to make me believe I saw something I hadn't seen.

[Slithy Tove]

Really? I'm willing to admit that I must have been standing way, way under the irony, because I walked out of Rock and Roll High School. They could have made the same movie with the Bay City Rollers, since almost any band could claim that somebody's parents, somewhere, were threatented by them. But again, maybe that was just me (who had rooted for the Ducky Boys in The Wanderers).

I had to wait for Repo Man before I saw a movie that "got" punk.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Why, Inigo! I'm surprised at you!

I would have thought surely someone who once contemplated swallowing a "magic-grow" octopus for science would "get" The Ramones. :D

Ah...good times.

[Little Nemo]

Mmmmmm, P.J. Soles in the shower . . .

That scene is so hot, that even though she is either clothed or wrapped in a towel for the whole scene, my revisionist memory had me convinced that she bared her breasts. When I saw the movie again, I believed I was seeing an edited version and took it upon myself to seek out the "real" version where you actually see her breasts. Nope. The bare breasts version never existed- it's just that the scene was powerful enough to make me believe I saw something I hadn't seen.There's always Halloween.

[Death of Rats]

Since everybody but Tommy and Markie are dead, yeah, super-slim. ;)


That might be news to Ritchie and C.J. :D

[bienville]

There's always Halloween.

And the extended edition DVD of Stripes!

Do we see her naked in Carrie?



Slithy Tove, yes it could have been any band- but having it be the Ramones made it awesome!!!

link (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079813/trivia) Originally, Todd Rundgren was to star as the musical act, but both sides could not come to an agreement. Next, Cheap Trick was contacted, but a similar situation happened. After that, talks were conducted with Warner Bros. Records, where Allan Arkush had a connection, to decide on which band they should use in the film. The first suggestion was Devo, but Arkush decided that they had too much of their own concept. Another band considered for the movie was Van Halen, but Warner execs warned Arkush that they were raucous and would be difficult to handle. Finally, an exec name-dropped the Ramones, who recorded for Sire Records, a subsidiary of Warner Bros. Records. Arkush, being a huge fan of the band, agreed. To this day, Rundgren regrets passing up the role he was offered.

[Apocalypso]

Thanks!



Well, I figured that went without saying. I mean, they were (without a doubt in my mind) the first punk rock band. Without them, there is no Sex Pistols, no Clash, no Damned, possibly even no Motörhead :eek:! There's a whole huge avalanche effect that wouldn't have taken place, and punk and metal might not have ever quite come about. That's how important they are to rock music.
<snip>

Bolding of Bo's post is mine
Motörhead started in 1975. The Ramones started in '74. So I'm going to call bullshit on the "No Ramones, no Motörhead" unless you have a direct quote from Lemmy stating that they were aware of and were influenced by what Joey and co were doing at the time. Also, I love Snowboarder Bo's posts, and I think hes (or shes?) amazingly knowledgeable about music and music history, but I am also going to call bullshit on "metal might not have ever quite come about without the Ramones". Heavy Metal was well on its way by '74, and I can probably think of 10-15 bands off the top of my head that did more to shape heavy metal than The Ramones did. Hell I'd even argue that the Beatles laid down the foundation and thus had more influence. Of course this is all my own opinion of something that can't be objectively measured.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting the Ramones down or denying they had a powerful influence, especially on punk, and they inspired a lot people to say "hey, if they can do it, I can do it". I think punk would be substantially different without them (but would definitely still exist). But to claim that heavy metal would not exist or would be very different without them, er...no...just, no.

Here's just a handful of bands who, in my opinion, had way more influence on heavy metal music than The Ramones. I could go back further to The Beatles, Hawkwind, Yardbirds, etc, but this'll do for now:
The Who (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_who) - formed in '64. Destroyed instruments on stage and sang "hope I die before I get old". Who was saying rock lost its edge?
Jimi Hendrix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix) - started playing in the late 50's, his guitar playing is widely credited with being "the" main influence and shaper of heavy metal.
Alice Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Cooper) - formed in '68 and influenced countless rock/metal bands.
Black Sabbath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sabbath) - formed in '69. Now if you want to argue about one band who shaped metal the most I'd put Sabbath as my nominee, and I don't think I'd get too many disagreements.
Motörhead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhead) - formed in '75. If Black Sabbath were the founding fathers of Heavy Metal (as some claim), Motörhead can be viewed as the founders of Thrash Metal.
Van Halen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_halen) - formed in '72
Led Zepplin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zepplin) - formed in '68 (if you go back to when they were the New Yardbirds).
Kiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_%28band%29) formed in '73, and their spectacular stage shows and outrageous costumes have been a huge influence on rock and metal bands the world over.

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

...Without them, there is no Sex Pistols, no Clash....

What's even more amazing is that these two all-time great bands were conceived after their future members attended a single Ramones concert in England!

[Snowboarder Bo]

That might be news to Ritchie and C.J. :D

Richie is kind of a grey area. He left the band because he never got any money for the merch sales and as far as Johnny was concerned he was just a paid musician. He was tight with Joey and Dee Dee tho, and did make that cool speech at the Grammys last year, tho.

C.J. I left out because I try and forget most of the albums he played on. Not because his playing is bad, but because the albums themselves were of so little note.

But you're correct, they were Ramones and they are still alive. I was incomplete.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Glorious hard garage rock. Time to dance with your tribe.

At the beginning of every song, Joey would yell 1, 2, 3, 4! And the band would explode :D



It was Dee Dee that started the songs, not Joey.

[BwanaBob]

Richie is kind of a grey area. He left the band because he never got any money for the merch sales and as far as Johnny was concerned he was just a paid musician. He was tight with Joey and Dee Dee tho, and did make that cool speech at the Grammys last year, tho.

C.J. I left out because I try and forget most of the albums he played on. Not because his playing is bad, but because the albums themselves were of so little note.

But you're correct, they were Ramones and they are still alive. I was incomplete.

C.J. lives in my community - about 2 years ago, his band did a Ramones set at a PTA drug awareness concert (for the school district his son attends). They blew the doors off the auditorium - kids and adults of all ages were thrashing in the aisles. If you closed your eyes you could feel the vibe. (I'd seen the Ramones in '79 so I had something to compare them to).

[Snowboarder Bo]

C.J. lives in my community - about 2 years ago, his band did a Ramones set at a PTA drug awareness concert (for the school district his son attends). They blew the doors off the auditorium - kids and adults of all ages were thrashing in the aisles. If you closed your eyes you could feel the vibe. (I'd seen the Ramones in '79 so I had something to compare them to).

Aye, C.J. is an okay guy; he does a lot of autism awareness stuff because of his son. Did you know that he used to be married to Marky's niece?

[Nunzio Tavulari]

Nice post. Punk cred claimed. Is that how everyone felt? Did you see Television there (if so, tell us everything!). Did they play fast, too?

I lived outside NYC and didn't visit CBGBs until mid-1978 or so. By then, most of the "famous" bands had moved on or the place was just too packed for an out-of-towner to get in.

I saw the Ramones in a small club in Connecticut in a room the size of your kitchen. It was too small for anyone who had much of a name in the metro area, and the Ramones were completely unknown to us. My only other brush with greatness at the early level was with Twisted Sister, who had a fanatical following in Westchester County a few years before hitting it big. I saw and hung out with a lot of bands that could sell out any club within 25 miles and we _thought_ were going to make it but they bombed 50 miles from home.

I saw a lot of good bands and I thought I was a punk rocker, but it turns out I was only new wave. As most people were.

[WordMan]

I lived outside NYC and didn't visit CBGBs until mid-1978 or so. By then, most of the "famous" bands had moved on or the place was just too packed for an out-of-towner to get in.

I saw the Ramones in a small club in Connecticut in a room the size of your kitchen. It was too small for anyone who had much of a name in the metro area, and the Ramones were completely unknown to us. My only other brush with greatness at the early level was with Twisted Sister, who had a fanatical following in Westchester County a few years before hitting it big. I saw and hung out with a lot of bands that could sell out any club within 25 miles and we _thought_ were going to make it but they bombed 50 miles from home.

I saw a lot of good bands and I thought I was a punk rocker, but it turns out I was only new wave. As most people were.

Interesting. I live in Westchester, but only since 1998...I can just see Twisted Sister at some of the clubs I have been to in Westchester...

[Snowboarder Bo]

I was gonna quote all of Apocalypso's post here and reply to the various parts as warranted, but it was really breaking up my stream of consciousness, so I'll just try and reply to a couple of things specifically, then get into the nitty gritty.

Also, I love Snowboarder Bo's posts, and I think hes (or shes?) amazingly knowledgeable about music and music history,

I'm a guy, and thanks for the compliments. It's not often I get to talk about music with anyone who gives a shit about music, so I'm always happy when the opportunity comes along. It's nice to know that I'm not perceived as just some douchebag who's talking out of his ass (at least not perceived that way all the time).

but I am also going to call bullshit on "metal might not have ever quite come about without the Ramones". Heavy Metal was well on its way by '74, and I can probably think of 10-15 bands off the top of my head that did more to shape heavy metal than The Ramones did.p
I think punk would be substantially different without them (but would definitely still exist). But to claim that heavy metal would not exist or would be very different without them, er...no...just, no.
Motörhead started in 1975. The Ramones started in '74. So I'm going to call bullshit on the "No Ramones, no Motörhead" unless you have a direct quote from Lemmy stating that they were aware of and were influenced by what Joey and co were doing at the time.

Ok, first, lemme start by saying that I also think you're right that many bands had more of a direct influence on metal musically than The Ramones.

But let's look at the bands you picked out:

With the exceptions of Sabbath and Kiss, all the bands you mention were the epitome of what punk rock was seething against (well, not Hendrix but only because he was dead and thus had stopped producing music). By 1974, The Who, Led Zep, and Alice Cooper were at the top of the rock & roll arena players. They had long songs with what could arguably be called "movements" and featured all sorts of pretentious crap like orchestras and strings. Sabbath had a couple of long songs like that, but they lacked the art-house angle of "trained classical musicians". Kiss was the only band you mention that had a pure pop oeuvre, except they cranked the volume to 11 so they were rocking.

All of the bands you mention, tho, had a bloated stage show that they dragged around with them (again, except the dead guy).

Note that I'm ignoring Van Halen because they didn't release an album until 1978. Plus they were never a heavy metal band, they were a rock band with a kick-ass guitarist.

Okay, now let's look at Motörhead.

Lemmy started the band in 1975 after getting kicked out of Hawkwind. They played a bunch of gigs thru 1976, but by early 1977 Fast Eddie and Philthy Phil were ready to call it quits. They were tired of squatting in abandoned flats and going nowhere fast. They were unable to release their single "Leaving Here" because it was recorded for a small label (UA, who they were under contract to at the time, blocked it's release) and UA had refused to release the material they had recorded in December 1976 because it was "unacceptable" (it was later released as On Parole in 1979). In fact, in December of 1976, NME printed the results of a poll that gave Motörhead the dubious honor of being "the best worst band in the world", and that was just based on what people saw from live gigs.

Now, The Ramones first played the UK in 1976 (July 4th, as a matter of fact), about 10 weeks after their first album was released. Their first UK single was released on 9 July ("Blitzkrieg Bop" b/w "Havana Affair). Cite (http://home.drenik.net/ramone/history/history.htm). They played the UK for a couple of weeks, then came back to the US. Lemmy met the band during that brief tour.

I met them back in 1977 when they came to England, actually I think it was 1976. I just fell in well with Joey and Dee Dee, you know. Johnny wasn’t so friendly but then he never was. The other two I got on really well with. And, terrible they’re all gone. I couldn’t believe it. I mean, Johnny and Dee went within seven months of each other? Ridiculous. Bang, bang, bang, they’re all gone. I think they kind of died when Dee Dee left, you know, in a way. I think that crippled Joey, because he had no buddies in the band then. (http://www.staythirstymedia.com/200707w/html/0707lemmy.html)

They toured the UK again in 1977, so it's possible that Lemmy didn't meet them until 1977.

BUT

People in the UK were up in arms about the Ramones and their song lyrics. A few people wrote letter-to-the-editor type harangues about their talent ("none") and image ("delinquents") but it really got into the public consciousness when they were denounced by Labor Party MP James Dempsey for their song "I Wanna Sniff Some Glue". He wanted their record banned in the UK and pulled from store shelves, so this made headlines and newscasts.

Of course, this just led people to want to hear The Ramones for themselves, and their popularity skyrocketed.

Okay, now we go back to Motörhead. In April of 1977, Lemmy agreed to shitcan the band, but talked the guys into doing one more show that they would record "for posterity". The mobile recording truck never showed up, and the guy they had set that up with apologized backstage and offered them 2 days in the studio with a real producer (Speedy Keen). They took that offer, recorded 11 tracks, and managed to wangle some extra time to finish the vocals. That album was released in September 1977.

So, what I'm saying is that The Ramones, by way of already being known in the UK by Sept 1977, paved the way for Motörhead. UK audiences were already intrigued and infatuated with loud, fast, raw music, otherwise Motörhead might have just dropt into the cutout bins while the guys went on to boring, regular lives. As for how big and influence the band had on Lemmy musically and when, I can't say, but I suspect it was pretty huge because of the song he wrote for them, "R.A.M.O.N.E.S.", (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ponhgg5MnfM). That's from Motörhead's 1991 album , 1916. Here's the first verse:

New York City, N.Y.C., pretty mean when it wants to be
Black leather, knee-hole pants, can't play no high school dance
Fuzz tone, hear 'em go, hear 'em on the radio

Misfits twilight zone
R A M O N E S, R A M O N E S, Ramones

So, I'm not making a claim that The Ramones influenced Motörhead's sound as much as I'm saying that they made the market a viable place for a band like Motörhead, just like they did for Sex Pistols, The Clash, and countless other bands. And if Motörhead hadn't released that album and sold some copies, then heavy metal would have been doomed to the bloated crappiness that it would have been influenced by. (To be fair, I do think that they prolly also showed Lemmy that yes, a band could play fast, loud & raw and be a success.)

What I mean by that is that I think Iron Maiden might still have happened, but Venom might not. Metal would be ruled by Saxon and Diamond Head and Girlschool and Def Leppard and other bands that we now think of as power metal, with those annoying high pitched Plant-like vocals and long, obviously classical passages. It would be nothing but Beethoven and Mozart cranked up to 11. No thrash, no hardcore, no death metal, no black metal, because the building blocks, musically, economically and popularly, would not be in place.

That's my argument, and I'll stand by it.

[Snowboarder Bo]

I forgot to say: I'm sorry I couldn't reply to your post yesterday, Apoc, but I knew it would take me more than a just a couple of minutes to do properly, and I've been busy mutating my zombie parts so I can go back to work soon.

Oh, and Lemmy didn't write "R.A.M.O.N.E.S" for The Ramones to play, he wrote it for Motörhead.... but yeah, that's him onstage with The Ramones at their last concert in NYC, in 1996.

[Maserschmidt]

It was Dee Dee that started the songs, not Joey.



With occasional exceptions. I was lucky enough to see them in 1980 (in Dallas) and they started off with "Pinhead", Marky banging the drums and Joey shouting "Gabba gabba we accept you!"

On a side note, I knew nothing about them before the show, and had been talked into going by friends. Up to that point I'd only seen arena concerts by Jethro Tull and Yes (my 2 favorite bands besides the Who)...but seeing the Ramones hugely changed what I wanted out of music. Talk about having your head re-adjusted.

[Steophan]

Metal would be ruled by Saxon


I agree with the rest of your post, but at heart Saxon are a kick-arse rock'n'roll band. They went a little off the boil in the late 80s, but have been back on form for nearly 20 years, almost entirely avoiding hair metal preening or operatic wankery. They've toured with Motorhead many times over the years.

Not that there's anything wrong with either of those things in the right place, but that place is probably not a Ramones thread!

[oliversarmy]

The Ramones rocked.

[Apocalypso]

I was gonna quote all of Apocalypso's post here and reply to the various parts as warranted, but it was really breaking up my stream of consciousness, so I'll just try and reply to a couple of things specifically, then get into the nitty gritty.



I'm a guy, and thanks for the compliments. It's not often I get to talk about music with anyone who gives a shit about music, so I'm always happy when the opportunity comes along. It's nice to know that I'm not perceived as just some douchebag who's talking out of his ass (at least not perceived that way all the time).


I feel like I could spend hours discussing music with you. Once I hit my late 20's/early 30's I realized my taste in music (and some other areas) was pretty thin, so I made an efffort to broaden my horizons. The last 5 cd's I bought were from Ayreon, The Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Rascal Flatts (my gf got me into a few of their songs), Paul Simon, and an old Misfits cd (replacing one I lost). You seem pretty knowledgable about a wide range of stuff, so its always nice to talk to people who aren't squeezed into a narrow little viewpoint.


Ok, first, lemme start by saying that I also think you're right that many bands had more of a direct influence on metal musically than The Ramones.

But let's look at the bands you picked out:

With the exceptions of Sabbath and Kiss, all the bands you mention were the epitome of what punk rock was seething against (well, not Hendrix but only because he was dead and thus had stopped producing music). By 1974, The Who, Led Zep, and Alice Cooper were at the top of the rock & roll arena players. They had long songs with what could arguably be called "movements" and featured all sorts of pretentious crap like orchestras and strings. Sabbath had a couple of long songs like that, but they lacked the art-house angle of "trained classical musicians". Kiss was the only band you mention that had a pure pop oeuvre, except they cranked the volume to 11 so they were rocking.

All of the bands you mention, tho, had a bloated stage show that they dragged around with them (again, except the dead guy).

I see what you're saying (but don't necessarily share the same opinion). I started listening to music in probably '79-80 through my older sister and a few other relatives, and the huge elaborate productions of the first few concerts I went to (AC/DC, Ozzy, etc) just blew my mind. Anyhow the point was that these bands had more of a direct influence on metal than the Ramones.

Note that I'm ignoring Van Halen because they didn't release an album until 1978. Plus they were never a heavy metal band, they were a rock band with a kick-ass guitarist.

Well that may be, but I can't tell you how many conversations I've had over the years that went "Ok, AC/DC/Kiss/etc are hard rock, this band is classic metal, that band is thrash, that band is dark metal, etc. Do punks feel the need to divide their music into 1000 different categories the way some metal fans do? At some point I realized how idiotic it was, we're all brothers in metal, and if you bang your head to it, it's metal
Okay, now let's look at Motörhead.

<snip for brevity>
You know, I've owned the Motorhead album with that Ramones song for something like 25 years, but forgot all about it until your post :p Good point!

What I mean by that is that I think Iron Maiden might still have happened, but Venom might not. Metal would be ruled by Saxon and Diamond Head and Girlschool and Def Leppard and other bands that we now think of as power metal, with those annoying high pitched Plant-like vocals and long, obviously classical passages. It would be nothing but Beethoven and Mozart cranked up to 11. No thrash, no hardcore, no death metal, no black metal, because the building blocks, musically, economically and popularly, would not be in place.

That's my argument, and I'll stand by it.

Fair enough. I grew up in a Pittsburgh suburb, well away from the big city scenes, but I don't remember seeing or hearing of that much crossover until at least the mid/late 80's. In my experience, metal was about technical ability, screaming vocals and wailing solos. Punk was raw brutality punching you in the face. Metal was long hair, leather/jean jackets, sex, drugs, and rock and roll x10. Punk was mutilated clothes drawn on with magic markers, spiked hair, not giving a shit, fuck authority, fuck the establishment, and fuck you too. Both forms of rebellion, both ways to fit in with each other while pissing your parents and teachers off, but both very different in look, form and execution. I do remember a good bit of animosity between punks and metalheads, lots of fights. But I don't know how widespread that was. I think at some point there was a lot more crossover, but metal had been around for a good while by that point and had evolved independently from punk. Not saying there weren't bands on the fringe from the beginning, but when thrash started to become popular was (IMO) when the lines really started to blur.

[WordMan]

I was gonna...

<snip>

...That's my argument, and I'll stand by it.

You, my friend Bo, are a CMG - Certified Music Geek. I enjoy your work and wish to subscribe to your newsletter ;). I wish I got to your website more often; I have so little fun time on the web and most of it goes to the Dope...

[Marley23]

Apocalypso, I've added some more quote tags to your post so it is easier to tell what Snowboarder Bo wrote and what you were responding to. We prefer that people respond that way (using more quote tags to break up a post) instead of inserting long replies inside the quote box, which can make it look like they were written by someone else. It's a little extra work, but if you're quoting multiple times from a single post, please add quote tags like this - .

[BwanaBob]

Aye, C.J. is an okay guy; he does a lot of autism awareness stuff because of his son. Did you know that he used to be married to Marky's niece?

I did indeed.

[diku]

What's even more amazing is that these two all-time great bands were conceived after their future members attended a single Ramones concert in England!

And I always then take that and talk about the famous Sex Pistols gig in Manchester that inspired Morrisey, The Buzzcocks, Joy Division, and The Fall. Without the Ramones, those bands might not have happened.

[Snowboarder Bo]

And I always then take that and talk about the famous Sex Pistols gig in Manchester that inspired Morrisey, The Buzzcocks, Joy Division, and The Fall. Without the Ramones, those bands might not have happened.

It goes even further than that!

Among the 42 people present at that gig was Tony Wilson, a broadcast journalist type who hosted a little TV show called So It Goes. That gig convinced him to start promoting concerts, which shortly led to him starting a small record label called Factory Records.

Factory Records gave us Joy Division, New Order, Happy Mondays, Orchestral Maneuvers In The Dark, plus a whole slew of other great Manchester bands.

The scene in Manchester that Wilson nurtured was a huge part (if not the single biggest part) of the birth of raves and rave culture.

I hope that Inigo Montoya is still reading, because it's just amazing how influential The Ramones were. They were like the first domino in a chain, the first snowball in an avalanche that we're still hearing today (thankfully!).

ETA: If I remember correctly, diku, The Buzzcocks were on the bill with Sex Pistols that night, but didn't perform; they were already a band at the time, tho.

[Snowboarder Bo]

You, my friend Bo, are a CMG - Certified Music Geek. I enjoy your work and wish to subscribe to your newsletter ;). I wish I got to your website more often; I have so little fun time on the web and most of it goes to the Dope...

I'm humbled, WordMan; I can think of no compliment I'd be more pleased to see! Thanks!

[Snowboarder Bo]

I feel like I could spend hours discussing music with you. Once I hit my late 20's/early 30's I realized my taste in music (and some other areas) was pretty thin, so I made an efffort to broaden my horizons. The last 5 cd's I bought were from Ayreon, The Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Rascal Flatts (my gf got me into a few of their songs), Paul Simon, and an old Misfits cd (replacing one I lost). You seem pretty knowledgable about a wide range of stuff, so its always nice to talk to people who aren't squeezed into a narrow little viewpoint.

Some of the happiest times I ever spent occurred in back in the late '80s and early '90s when I lived in Tallahassee, FL. I had many friends amongst the local musicians at the time, and spent countless excellent hours sitting around listening to music and talking about not just the music but the people involved in it while, um, getting in tune, ya know what I'm saying'?

Not everyone had the same taste, but everyone was knowledgeable and happy to share their music with everyone else. I learned a great deal from those people and will forever appreciate their friendship; I'm still in touch with quite a few of them, in fact.

[Baron Greenback]

And I always then take that and talk about the famous Sex Pistols gig in Manchester that inspired Morrisey, The Buzzcocks, Joy Division, and The Fall. Without the Ramones, those bands might not have happened.

Also Simply Red so, y'know, swings and roundabouts ;)

[Baron Greenback]

ETA: If I remember correctly, diku, The Buzzcocks were on the bill with Sex Pistols that night, but didn't perform; they were already a band at the time, tho.

Pete Shelley and Howard Devoto helped organize the gig.

[Malthus]

Heh, I'll tell you my Ramones story: one day around a year ago, my (then) five year old son suddenly stood up, began to play air guitar, and yell out "Hey Ho ... Let's Go!"

I was startled to say the least ... turns out he'd seen a Ramones video at a playdate with a little friend of his.

To my mind this sort of explains the appeal of the band: it is the distilled essence of energetic and boppity, which is a wavelength 5 year old boys can relate to.

[WordMan]

Heh, I'll tell you my Ramones story: one day around a year ago, my (then) five year old son suddenly stood up, began to play air guitar, and yell out "Hey Ho ... Let's Go!"

I was startled to say the least ... turns out he'd seen a Ramones video at a playdate with a little friend of his.

To my mind this sort of explains the appeal of the band: it is the distilled essence of energetic and boppity, which is a wavelength 5 year old boys can relate to.

Good lord, yes. I started playing the Ramones for my kids at an early age and the LOVED them. Also the up-tempo Beach Boys stuff...and Fox on the Run by the Sweet ;)

[The Great Sun Jester]

I hope that Inigo Montoya is still reading...Still here. Sometimes I put forth a little extra effort to keep the noise/signal ratio at a more constructive level--that's why I'm staying (mostly) quiet here.

Often, appreciation is based less on listening than on knowing what to listen for. I tried listening...and then decided I needed this thread. :)

[Intergalactic Gladiator]

Heh, I'll tell you my Ramones story: one day around a year ago, my (then) five year old son suddenly stood up, began to play air guitar, and yell out "Hey Ho ... Let's Go!"

I was startled to say the least ... turns out he'd seen a Ramones video at a playdate with a little friend of his.

To my mind this sort of explains the appeal of the band: it is the distilled essence of energetic and boppity, which is a wavelength 5 year old boys can relate to.

Good lord, yes. I started playing the Ramones for my kids at an early age and the LOVED them. Also the up-tempo Beach Boys stuff...and Fox on the Run by the Sweet ;)

If you're kids are young enough, the Boogers (http://www.meet-the-boogers.com/) area a great band that sing Ramones-like songs for kids. 6 years old may be pushing it.

My son loves to sing "Hey daddy-o, I don't wanna go down to the basement," though I've been singing that to him since he was 5 months old whenever I took him downstairs.

[Snowboarder Bo]

I had to wait for Repo Man before I saw a movie that "got" punk.

Make no mistake, Rock & Roll High School was not about punk rock. It was just a funny movie that happened to feature the Ramones prominently. FWIW, I think they perfectly fit the role they played both visually and musically.

But I agree that Repo Man is one of a very few movies, if not the only one, that ever perfectly "got" punk rock. I still quote it all the time, even tho no one ever understands that I'm doing so.

[devilsknew]

Make no mistake, Rock & Roll High School was not about punk rock. It was just a funny movie that happened to feature the Ramones prominently. FWIW, I think they perfectly fit the role they played both visually and musically.

But I agree that Repo Man is one of a very few movies, if not the only one, that ever perfectly "got" punk rock. I still quote it all the time, even tho no one ever understands that I'm doing so.

I remember when I first saw Rock and Roll High School on the newly introduced cable channel around '81 or '82 (think it was HBO). It blew my prepubuscent mind, it was weird and avant garde in the same artistic vein as up in smoke. saw all of that new wave "Nick Cage" and "Hughes" come around at the same time. The video they did for the soon to follow MTV I wanna be sedated just cemented them indeliabaly into the American Pantheon of Music.

[devilsknew]

Mind you, I saw rock and Roll High School, as a Junior High Student. just before I went to Hgh Schooll.. the angst was also amplified by the movie "My Bodyguard". Not to mentiona an already 30 year cold war.

[devilsknew]

Wargames alsocame along.

[devilsknew]

Maybe I should do a Wargames/Ramones mashup. To the video, a compsition to the video, Green Prell with some California Sunshine... what was that one with the guy from Third Rock (not 30 Rock)?

[devilsknew]

Oh yeah, Lithgow.

[devilsknew]

I am sorry, I am once again conflating Wargames with The Manhattan Projext (Broderick/Lithgow). And perhaps a bit of Joe Huxley from The day After.

[mr. jp]

Turn the volume up, and listen to I Wanna Be Sedated (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_wssByW7JQ) and Blitzkrieg Bop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K56soYl0U1w).

Immediately likable songs, and I'm confident you agree.

Now, don't turn the volume down and listen to one of their first albums. It's almost all similar to that. Catchy, memorable melody and action-packed guitar playing.