How do superheroes bring villains to justice?

[Little Nemo]

This was mentioned in a recent Cracked article. Superman isn't a policeman. Neither is Batman, Spiderman, Captain America, Green Lantern, Iron Man, or virtually any other superhero. They're private citizens who run around anonymously in masks "fighting" crime.

Assuming they don't kill the criminals they catch, what happens then? We occasionally see some superhero dropping a bunch of criminals off at a police station or inside a prison. But dropping them off isn't enough. You've got to have a trial and convict them of something.

Let's say I'm Evil Nemo and I'm robbing the Gotham Art Museum. Batman's out on patrol and he catches me, ties me up, and dumps me in Commissioner Gordon's office.

Now nobody other than Batman saw me robbing the museum. The police don't have any evidence that I committed a crime other than a guy dressed up as a bat said I did it - a guy whose name they don't even know. How are they going to charge me with anything? All I have to do is say I'm innocent and they've pretty much got to let me go. I can even ask them to file charges against Batman for kidnapping me.

[Greg Charles]

Your average super villain is pretty flamboyant and doesn't really attempt to hide the crimes he/she is committing, relying, rather, on the inability of the police to catch them. That's where a superhero comes in handy.

[Greg Charles]

By the way, my favorite superhero nitpick is on one of the old Logically Critical podcasts. How many people die every year from drunk driving accidents alone, not to mention reckless driving in general. Batman has a car that can drive itself, and yet he hoards this technology for himself. Selfish bastard! Yeah, kudos for keeping Cat Woman from stealing the Gotham Diamond, but dooming thousands to fiery deaths is way uncool, (Bat)man.

[Martini Enfield]

Given a world in which someone like Batman or the Green Hornet exists, it strikes me as likely that there'd be legislation in place effectively making them police officers, with powers of arrest etc.

There's possibly also the equivalent of anti-terrorism legislation which means Supervillains can be detained for a long/indefinite period without trial (or a trial by a jury of one's peers, because really, who would constitute a jury of The Penguin's peers, for example?)

Combined with the already noted tendency for flamboyance amongst supervillains, and one assumes CCTV footage or other evidence gathered from the scene by the people who do the CSI thing in that world, I don't actually think Superheroes (legally) Bringing Supervillains To Justice is as hand-wavy a concept as it first appears.

Good OP though!

[Noel Prosequi]

You have, of course, identified the great weakness of the superhero concept - it essentially depends on a species of fascism to succeed. This derives from one of the starting premises of the concept - we the audience are privy to the bedrock knowledge that the hero is virtuous and we are shown the villain's villainy, so we are not conscious of any violence being done to norms that apply in a regular universe not populated by superheroes. Superman's dropping of the villain off at the police station is a cypher for "and then the System took care of the little details", and it works because the necessary narrative conventions of triumph of good, casting down of evil, etc, are all functionally complete by the time said villain is so dumped.

The only attacks allowed on a superhero are attacks on his competence, not his virtue, which must be taken for granted by all serious protagonists including the villain. There is a nod to this in Spiderman. J Jonah Jameson behaves perfectly reasonably (by real world standards) in questioning Spiderman's motives, but because he is not an actual villain, he is made to look foolish.

If Superman were required to come to court and give evidence as real police are, his virtue would be attacked, his freedom of action challenged and his moral supremacy undermined. So all of that pesky proof stuff is just hand waved away.

Pretty obviously, this system of superhero as both policeman and punisher could not function in a civil society that was not essentially a police state. But it all makes for great entertainment.

[BeaMyra]

What about a citizen's arrest?

[Martini Enfield]

What about a citizen's arrest?

If I remember my law studies, the circumstances under which one can be effected without opening the arrester up to all sorts of liabilities (criminal or civil) are so limited as to be virtually non-existent, at least here. My law lecturer rounded off the unit thusly: "Don't."

And, as usual, Noel Prosequi raises some excellent and thought-provoking points. :)

[Alessan]

If Superman says he's a cop, he's a cop. You don't argue with Superman.

[audit1]

There is a website devoted to the problems of super heroes and the law.

www.lawandthemultiverse.com

[Simplicio]

Even cops need to testify to put poeple away, it seems like a successfull superhero would have to spend half his day testifying in court. And I'd think most judges would hold you in contempt if you tried to testify wearing a mask. Not to mention is a criminal really being given a chance to "confront his accusers" if his accuser is wearing a mask and using a goofy nickname?

[grude]

Superheroes work best when they are dealing with villains the government is ill equipped to or cannot deal with. See Kal El and the various Kryptonians and bits of tech and aliens that have made their way to earth, is anyone really saying that a shapeshifting nano supercomputer from Krypton has civil rights?!:p

Basically questions of civil rights never arise because the villains are not human/not from earth and when talking about BRANIAC or Starro we're getting to the edges of morality.

I think thats the whole point of a "super"hero, a regular hero is a police officer.

Oh and what about the point that most human villains keep escaping from prison? In that case Batman doesn't need to prove the Joker was robbing the museum, esentially he just handed the police a prison escapee or fugitive.

[cmkeller]

I imagine that once the villain is caught, there will probably be some fingerprints, etc that link him to the crime scene.

But also, super-heroes probably occasionally need to testify in court.

In the Marvel Universe at least, I'm pretty sure that the Avengers have some special governmental status that makes them police equivalents. (Though Captain America is military, so I wonder if there's some posse comitatus issue there.) I don't know about super-heroes in the present of the DCU, but the future Legion of Super-Heroes are legally deputized Science Police officers.

[Gagundathar]

I don't have a cite for this, but I seem to recall that Batman was a 'duly sworn officer of the law' having been deputized by Commissioner Gordon.
At least in the 1960s TV version.

[Kamino Neko]

But also, super-heroes probably occasionally need to testify in court.

In the DC universe there have been a couple mentions of a constitutional amendment in the US that allowed them to testify without compromising their secret identities.

IIRC, it was stated as the 19th, although by the dates of the real world amendments, and when superheroes first appeared in the DCU of the time, it should have been the 23rd or 24th.

Current continuity, it'd have to be the 28th.

[Slithy Tove]

You have, of course, identified the great weakness of the superhero concept - it essentially depends on a species of fascism to succeed.

Now I've got to create a comic with a caped & leotarded Comrade Stalin flying around, thwarting rat-faced Trotkyite wreckers, punching tiger tanks, and replacing the red star atop Moscow U.

[Scumpup]

Golden Age Batman was an honorary member of the Gotham City PD with full powers of arrest. They seem to have dispensed with that some time in the late 60's or early 70's.

[BMalion]

In the DC universe there have been a couple mentions of a constitutional amendment in the US that allowed them to testify without compromising their secret identities.

...

i believe that's how it is done in Astro City.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I've always liked when comics address this. I seem to recall a Green Arrow comic from the early-2000s in which Arrow busts a corrupt city-councilman and leaves him tied up for police with a bag of cocaine still in his pocket and photos of his other crimes stuck the wall next to him.

Also, a lot of villains are flamboyant enough that they don't just commit crimes, they advertise them. When villain goes on TV or sends the mayor a letter threatening to set of a bomb at a big public event or robs a bank in broad daylight in a brightly colored costume with matching henchmen, it's hard to imagine the authorities not being able to make a case against him, even if they weren't the ones who caught him.

In general, I've always operated under the assumption that most villains like the Joker and Lex Luthor (when he's a mad scientist rather than an "upstanding" businessman) are already fugitives, wanted for their various past crimes, jail-breaks and so forth so a superhero tracking them down is akin to a bounty-hunter who doesn't (in most cases) take the reward. This doesn't necessarily work for villains making their first appearances, but as I said many (if not most) are blatant enough that the case almost makes itself.

[Sitnam]

That and everyone a superhero apprehends has black eyes. What evidence exists is of assault.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Now I've got to create a comic with a caped & leotarded Comrade Stalin flying around, thwarting rat-faced Trotkyite wreckers, punching tiger tanks, and replacing the red star atop Moscow U.I missed this post when I replied before. Have you, by chance, heard of Superman: Red Son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son)? Baby Kal-El's rocket lands on a collective farm in the Ukraine rather than in Smallville, Kansas and he's raised to fight "a never-ending battle for Stalin, socialism, and the international expansion of the Warsaw Pact" rather than the usual "truth, justice and the American way." It's actually a pretty good read.[/hijack]

[Slithy Tove]

Not surprising, I'm late to the game. OK, I'm just putting him in the basement of the Lubyanka 24/7, drilling people in the back of the head with his heat-vision.

[Little Nemo]

There is a website devoted to the problems of super heroes and the law.

www.lawandthemultiverse.comInteresting site. I'm amazed to see that there has been a legal case which ruled that mutants are not human beings. I'm not talking about a legal case in the Marvel universe; this was a real legal case here in the United States.

[LawMonkey]

There's a Wondermark comic directly on point for this one: Note from Batman says you're the perp, you're the perp (http://wondermark.com/178/).

[Max Torque]

Isn't this mentioned in the movie Superman Returns? As I recall, it's said early on that Lex is free because Superman had disappeared before testifying against him at his trial.

[Silver Tyger]

Interesting site. I'm amazed to see that there has been a legal case which ruled that mutants are not human beings. I'm not talking about a legal case in the Marvel universe; this was a real legal case here in the United States.

It should be noted, before people get the wrong impression, that it was a case about toys. Dolls (aka representations of humans) got taxed at a higher rate than toys (and before anyone starts - apparently actions figures counted as dolls). They argued and won that the X-men didn't represent humans and thus didn't count as dolls. This whole thing is moot at this point, as dolls and toys are taxed the same.

[Intergalactic Gladiator]

I don't have a cite for this, but I seem to recall that Batman was a 'duly sworn officer of the law' having been deputized by Commissioner Gordon.
At least in the 1960s TV version.

I was just thinking this also. There were at least two times something like this was mentioned in the TV show. Either Commisioner Gordon or Batman says that the Dynamic Duo is deputized and another where a citizen complains to a traffic cop that she has to pull over for the Batmobile.

Of course, this is the 60s Batman TV show, so take that with as many grains of salt as needed.

[Simplicio]

Isn't this mentioned in the movie Superman Returns? As I recall, it's said early on that Lex is free because Superman had disappeared before testifying against him at his trial.

I remember that. But in the previous films, didn't Luthor escape from jail? Even if he wasn't convicted of stuff that happened in Superman II, you'd think there would've been enough stuff related to his previous crimes (recall that he'd stolen a nuclear weapon and fired it at California!) and prison escape to keep him in prison for life.

[Simplicio]

I was just thinking this also. There were at least two times something like this was mentioned in the TV show. Either Commisioner Gordon or Batman says that the Dynamic Duo is deputized and another where a citizen complains to a traffic cop that she has to pull over for the Batmobile.

Of course, this is the 60s Batman TV show, so take that with as many grains of salt as needed.

If they were deputized, I'd think they'd need to do things like get a warrant before executing a search, marandize his prisoners, etc. A batman that can't tresspass without getting permission from a judge is pretty toothless.

[TriPolar]

Often they tie them up and leave them for the cops to find. The evidence from the crimes is usually abundant, especially for the bad guys that leave their calling card at the scene, or go on TV to threaten Gotham City with imminent destruction.

But it doesn't seem to work all that well. They all seem to get off with light sentences and return to commit more crimes.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Given a world in which someone like Batman or the Green Hornet exists, it strikes me as likely that there'd be legislation in place effectively making them police officers, with powers of arrest etc.


Superman was explicitly a special deputy of the Metropolis police force, both pre-Crisis and in the Byrne reboot. I don't know about the current reboot; it annoys me too much to read more than a few pages. Anyway, I assume it's a virtue of not wearing a mask and not seeming to have a secret identity. He can even be called to testify and just give his name as Kal-El.

Spider-Man sometimes just leave crooks webbed up with photos of their wrongdoing.

The Fantastic Four don't generally deal with muggers and bank robbers and such.

I imagine hte average mugger, burglar, or attempted rapist, captured by Batman, confesses so as not to have to deal with him again. Not to mention positively begging their lawyers not to put up too strong a defense, lest Batman get wind of an acquittal and come after them again.

The Legion of Super-Heroes are explicitly an arm of the Science Police.

Other than Wolverine, I can't imagine the X-Men dealing with ordinary criminals. And anyone Logan deals with, if lucky enough to emerge alive, is going to reacting not unlike thugs Batman captures.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

The Fantastic Four don't generally deal with muggers and bank robbers and such.

Neither does Doctor Strange, but he's repeatedly sidestepped it by using his hypnotic powers so caught-in-the-act crooks confess to the authorities. (And, building on what Noel Prosequi said, we not only get to see 'em break the law, but also see Doc task 'em -- in content-free terms -- with confessing what they've actually done.)

[Skald the Rhymer]

Neither does Doctor Strange, but he's repeatedly sidestepped it by using his hypnotic powers so caught-in-the-act crooks confess to the authorities. (And, building on what Noel Prosequi said, we not only get to see 'em break the law, but also see Doc task 'em -- in content-free terms -- with confessing what they've actually done.)

You are correct. Strange doesn't see fighting bank robbers and muggers as his job, though, the way Spider-Man and Daredevil do. In fact, among prominent New York Marvel Heroes, I expect those two are in the minority in what they'd describe as their primary mission.

[Bryan Ekers]

What I wonder about is how do police in Metropolis deal with captured supervillains that have lamp-posts wrapped around them and such, as Superman is wont to deliver them.

[joebuck20]

I was just thinking this also. There were at least two times something like this was mentioned in the TV show. Either Commisioner Gordon or Batman says that the Dynamic Duo is deputized and another where a citizen complains to a traffic cop that she has to pull over for the Batmobile.

Of course, this is the 60s Batman TV show, so take that with as many grains of salt as needed.

I believe it was also mentioned in the 1960s movie (the one where all the UN diplomats are turned into powder). It's been a while since I've seen it, but I seem to recall there's a scene where Catwoman, posing as a foreign journalist, makes some snide remark about vigilante justice in America, and it's mentioned that Batman and Robin are deputized members of the Gotham City Police Department.



Originally Posted by Max Torque View Post
Isn't this mentioned in the movie Superman Returns? As I recall, it's said early on that Lex is free because Superman had disappeared before testifying against him at his trial.

I remember that. But in the previous films, didn't Luthor escape from jail? Even if he wasn't convicted of stuff that happened in Superman II, you'd think there would've been enough stuff related to his previous crimes (recall that he'd stolen a nuclear weapon and fired it at California!) and prison escape to keep him in prison for life.

Not only did he engage in what was essentially nuclear terrorism, but he colluded with Zod, which I assume would count as treason. And he gets after only five years on a technicality because Superman failed to testify at his parole hearing?

The one time they attempt address Superman's role in the criminal justice system, it comes off as one of the most ridiculous and hamhanded parts in a movie that's full of ridiculousness and hamhandedness (surpassed perhaps only by the scene where he lifted the Kryptonite island).

[Skald the Rhymer]

I believe it was also mentioned in the 1960s movie (the one where all the UN diplomats are turned into powder). It's been a while since I've seen it, but I seem to recall there's a scene where Catwoman, posing as a foreign journalist, makes some snide remark about vigilante justice in America, and it's mentioned that Batman and Robin are deputized members of the Gotham City Police Department.



Batman specifically refers to Commissioner Gordon as his and Robin's immediate superior in one episode. That always sounded weird to me.

Not only did [Luthor] engage in what was essentially nuclear terrorism, but he colluded with Zod, which I assume would count as treason. And he gets after only five years on a technicality because Superman failed to testify at his parole hearing?


I think it was an appeal hearing, which doesn't make much more sense. But Luthor refers specifically to his not being Mirandized. That would only matter, methinks, if Superman were deputized. As I think on it, I can imagine Luthor volunteering a confession as soon as Superman brought him in so the case would be built on that, with that eventuality specifically in mind.

Superman Returns is still an awful movie, though.

[phreesh]

One of the (excellent) Astro City stories dealt with an element of this. I don't have the story in front of me, but here's my hazy recollection.

A mobster killed a guy in front of dozens of witnesses. His lawyer claimed that he was actually framed by a shapechanger who took his form and did the killing.

In a world with shapechangers (who can even change their fingerprints), this was sufficient to get him off.

[Cartoonacy]

I believe it was also mentioned in the 1960s movie (the one where all the UN diplomats are turned into powder). It's been a while since I've seen it, but I seem to recall there's a scene where Catwoman, posing as a foreign journalist, makes some snide remark about vigilante justice in America, and it's mentioned that Batman and Robin are deputized members of the Gotham City Police Department.

They were deputized in the comics, as well. Specifically, Batman #7 (October/November 1941). in a story entitled "The People Versus the Batman."

[Chronos]

Of course, this is part of Daredevil's schtick. By night, he goes after crooks himself, but by day, he argues in court to convict them. And his superpowers often give him insight into the right questions to ask, so he's got a pretty good conviction rate.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Of course, this is part of Daredevil's schtick. By night, he goes after crooks himself, but by day, he argues in court to convict them. And his superpowers often give him insight into the right questions to ask, so he's got a pretty good conviction rate.

Last I checked, Daredevil's not a prosecutor.

[JThunder]

I was just thinking this also. There were at least two times something like this was mentioned in the TV show. Either Commisioner Gordon or Batman says that the Dynamic Duo is deputized and another where a citizen complains to a traffic cop that she has to pull over for the Batmobile.

Of course, this is the 60s Batman TV show, so take that with as many grains of salt as needed.
In one issue of The New Teen Titans, it was stated that Robin had been duly deputized. Presumably, the same held true of Batman.

[hogarth]

One of the (excellent) Astro City stories dealt with an element of this. I don't have the story in front of me, but here's my hazy recollection.

A mobster killed a guy in front of dozens of witnesses. His lawyer claimed that he was actually framed by a shapechanger who took his form and did the killing.

In a world with shapechangers (who can even change their fingerprints), this was sufficient to get him off.
That was just one possible theory. It could also have been the product of mind control, or an evil twin from a parallel dimension, or maybe the victim wasn't actually dead in the first place (or any of a variety of popular superhero tropes).

[Aestivalis]

Of course, this is part of Daredevil's schtick. By night, he goes after crooks himself, but by day, he argues in court to convict them. And his superpowers often give him insight into the right questions to ask, so he's got a pretty good conviction rate.

That can't be right. Matt Murdock is not part of the district attorney's office, he always has a private practice.

[elfkin477]

Ever wonder why the recidivism rate in Gotham is so high? This is why.

[madmonk28]

Yeah, if I'm on trial for being a supervillian's henchman, I demand the right to cross examine my accuser and none of this Superman crap. What is your real name and occupation? My attorney has the duty to provide me with a vigorous defense and that starts with taking a good hard look at the reliabilty of this witness in the blue long johns and cape.

[kaylasdad99]

I was just thinking this also. There were at least two times something like this was mentioned in the TV show. Either Commisioner Gordon or Batman says that the Dynamic Duo is deputized and another where a citizen complains to a traffic cop that she has to pull over for the Batmobile.

Of course, this is the 60s Batman TV show, so take that with as many grains of salt as needed.:confused:

But the 60s Batman TV show is CANON!

[Cartoonacy]

:confused:

But the 60s Batman TV show is CANON!

No, you're thinking of the Fatman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQaNeIecJkE).

[Death of Rats]

If I remember right, Batman did not start out as just a "superhero" he was also a detective and as such would actually gather evidence and follow clues to catch the perp. So, he would, at least, have an evidence trail that is a little more concrete than "I saw him through the wall of the bank with my X-ray vision!"

[Elendil's Heir]

Of course, in Watchmen, all the supers who don't agree to become de facto government agents have to give up their crimefighting gigs after passage of a Federal law.

In The Incredibles, Mr. Incredible is sued for injuries suffered by others when he saves a man leaping to his death, and for stopping an elevated train that would otherwise have plunged to disaster. A law is passed prohibiting costumed vigilantism; as one legislator says, "It's time for their secret identities to become their only identities." The government helps all of the supers go into a kind of witness-protection/relocation program.

[B. Serum]

There was a really good issue of Spider-Man that tackled the topic of the complications of heroes hauling in criminals without the benefit of police procedure (and Spidey's ingenious approach to resolving it). You can read a synopsis of the story here: Spider-Man Tangled Web #22 (http://spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_tangled_web/022.html)

[Acid Lamp]

Yeah, if I'm on trial for being a supervillian's henchman, I demand the right to cross examine my accuser and none of this Superman crap. What is your real name and occupation? My attorney has the duty to provide me with a vigorous defense and that starts with taking a good hard look at the reliabilty of this witness in the blue long johns and cape.

How do you compel him or her to show up?

[Chronos]

In at least some versions of the Superman mythos, it's common knowledge that he's an alien from the planet Krypton, nationalized American, and with his given name at birth being Kal-El. Does the right to confront one's accuser imply a need for any further knowledge?

For that matter, is there any legal problem with the same person having two different legal identities? Could Kal-El be accused of fraud or some other offense for presenting himself as Clark Kent?

[Elendil's Heir]

How do you compel him or her to show up?

Well, if you don't, the case just might be dismissed, which would please the defense. So the prosecution is going to want him there.

[madmonk28]

How do you compel him or her to show up?
As the accused, that's the state's problem.

[Cartoonacy]

Could Kal-El be accused of fraud or some other offense for presenting himself as Clark Kent?

According to the 1960s/'70s version of the mythos, after the Kents found the child in the rocket they dropped him off at an orphanage anonymously, then came back the next day and legally filed for adoption; so Clark Kent was his legal name. But in the original 1938 telling, and in the 1986 reboot, they just found the baby and kept him, so that might be a problem.

The 1980's reboot added that a record blizzard hit Smallville shortly after the rocket crashed. No one saw the Kents for months, allowing them to concoct a story that Martha actually gave birth while they were snowed in. It wasn't entirely a convenient coincidence, though. The blizzard was engineered by aliens who were monitoring the child and wanted his existence concealed for reasons of their own.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

According to the 1960s/'70s version of the mythos, after the Kents found the child in the rocket they dropped him off at an orphanage anonymously, then came back the next day and legally filed for adoption; so Clark Kent was his legal name. But in the original 1938 telling, and in the 1986 reboot, they just found the baby and kept him, so that might be a problem.

Slight nitpick: in the original 1938 telling, a passing motorist drops the kid off at the orphanage and -- that's it, really; in ACTION #1, we aren't told whether the motorist returned later, or whether the foundling got adopted by somebody else -- or whether young Clark just grew up there until he was old enough to, y'know, get a job.

[Cartoonacy]

Slight nitpick: in the original 1938 telling, a passing motorist drops the kid off at the orphanage and -- that's it, really; in ACTION #1, we aren't told whether the motorist returned later, or whether the foundling got adopted by somebody else -- or whether young Clark just grew up there until he was old enough to, y'know, get a job.

I'll have to go reread the story. That doesn't jibe with my memory. Or maybe I'm thinking of the expanded version from Superman #1.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

I'll have to go reread the story. That doesn't jibe with my memory.

Here's the link (http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug02/yeung/actioncomics/page1.html).

[B. Serum]

How do you compel him or her to show up?

Zee…zee…zee… (http://superman.nu/theages/Encyclopaedia/signal-watch.php)

[Enola Straight]

In the Civil War arc spanning the Marvel Universe legislation was proposed to put a government handle on superheroes: since these "private citizens" assume the authority and responsibility of law enforcement/military members, they should be treated as such.

The results were disastrous.

[BrainGlutton]

By the way, my favorite superhero nitpick is on one of the old Logically Critical podcasts. How many people die every year from drunk driving accidents alone, not to mention reckless driving in general. Batman has a car that can drive itself, and yet he hoards this technology for himself. Selfish bastard! Yeah, kudos for keeping Cat Woman from stealing the Gotham Diamond, but dooming thousands to fiery deaths is way uncool, (Bat)man.

[shrug] Everybody knows, Reed Richards Is Useless. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless) Different 'verse, same principle.

[Cartoonacy]

Here's the link (http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug02/yeung/actioncomics/page1.html).

Thanks. Here's the link (http://dccomicsartists.com/superwhoswho/kents.htm)to the later, modified version. The orphanage was mentioned there, too, but I really didn't remember it. It wasn't until the 1986 revision that the Kents decided to just keep the child without going through the paperwork.