Advice Sought for an Aspiring MD

[Raza]

Seeking advice from doctors as well as those who have med school, pharmacy, PA, and similar training.

I have a nephew who just graduated with a BS in Biology from a state university. His intention has always been to go to medical school and be a practicing physician. He will be taking the MCAT in the Spring. While there are a couple of physicians in his extended family, both went to med school in Asia, so they don't necessarily have the relevant experience for the nephew's next step.

The bad news: his final overall GPA is 3.3. He is smart and well-spoken, but some tough classes when he first transitioned from community college to the university set him back (he had a 3.9 GPA leaving CC).

He is looking for "I wish I knew then what I know now" from MDs and others with relevant experience (including PAs, pharmacists, other allied medical, etc). Of course he has spoken with his school and other counselors, but he places a higher degree of confidence in the experiences of those that have been through, or at least attempted, the process.

The number one question on his plate is: what can he do at this point to improve his chances of getting into a US medical school? With a side dish of: is it even realistic to expect to get in with a 3.3 GPA? With a garnish of: if getting into a US med school is unlikely, has anyone any experience with a Caribbean school?

Finally, for dessert: if med school is out, what would be realistic alternatives? Physician Assistant? (and I'm not implying PAs are "second rate" or only take the med school rejects) Pharmacist? He's trying to be as realistic in the outcomes as he can, and think about what his options would be should he not get in to med school.

[DSeid]

It has been a long time since I applied and I have no personal knowledge of the acceptance process, but I do not believe 3.3 is a game ender ... under 3.0, yeah. Kick ass on MCATs of course. Interview well. Have some angle that makes him special and different; be able to explain how that unique feature he'd bring to a medical school class, that angularity, would help round out the group.

And consider Caribbean med schools or an Osteopathic program. I know (have hired and have had become partners with) a graduate of each. Each very smart, very personable, great critical thinking skills, great communication skills. Just either did not test well on MCATs or did not pull off a high enough GPA, but knew what they wanted to do. Got great educations for the same reason I got a great education at a fairly big name US school - because we each made it so. Got into good residencies and are amazingly well qualified. Also very popular with patients and excellent diagnosticians.

Nothing wrong with a career as a PA or a nurse practitioner either, and honestly the way medicine is evolving they will be relied on more and more. Saves a lot of debt and time, which really must be considered.

To really answer more completely though I'd need his answer, his honest one, not the one he'd give in an interview, to why he wants to be a doctor.

Good luck to him.

[phreesh]

I'm not in a position to answer 'doctor' questions, but I would also point out the various interesting non-doctor jobs including respiratory therapists, registered nurses and the like if your nephew is unable to get into medical school as a doctor.

[Jackmannii]

I agree with DSeid's appraisal (I have no idea how tough it is to get into U.S. med schools these days with a sub-3.5 GPA, but it's certainly possible if something compelling sets you apart from the rest of the herd.) Foreign schools should be evaluated carefully to see how their grads are doing. Many, once they get into a decent U.S. residency program do fine and their med school origins are forgotten.

If there's a strong interest to do something in the health care field and it wouldn't be viewed as a disappointment, other options besides med school should be explored. Just don't have much hope for chiropractic school (besides the quackery problem, I hear job opportunities in chiropractic have become quite limited and grads are saddled with big debts from their, uh, training).

[Raza]

Thank you so much for the responses thus far; they are very much the kind of feedback he is looking for, including the suggestions for alternate medical-related careers.

To really answer more completely though I'd need his answer, his honest one, not the one he'd give in an interview, to why he wants to be a doctor.
I've interrogated him a few times as to whether he is pursuing this path because of family pressures or because he genuinely wants to be an MD. He is comfortable with me, and confirms this is his personal goal. As to the deeper why question, I will try to get a candid answer to that in the next day or so.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I know this is anecdotal and a sample size of exactly one, but a friend's son graduated from a Caribbean school three years ago and never did find a U.S. residency. He's living with Mom now, up to his coccyx in debt, in his 30s and wondering what to do for a living.


mmm

[pendgwen]

My college GPA was similar to that and I got in to a good US med school in 2004. But I had to apply twice and I got in off the wait-list. In order to get an interview he needs something on his application to make them less concerned about his grades. I had impressive MCAT scores and research experience after college to compensate for my grades. Even then there are some schools that simply won't be interested in someone with grades that low. Once he gets to the interview stage he needs an explanation for the grades that doesn't sound like a whiny excuse. My explanation was that I was in 2 choirs and an intercollegiate sport and I spent too much time on those things and not enough on studying. Some people seemed satisfied with that answer and some didn't but everyone asked.

I would avoid going to a Caribbean med school unless he really can't get in to a US med school. I'm currently in residency and I know quite a few people who went to St. George's and most of them are comparable to people who went to school in the US. But in my opinion there is slightly higher percentage of duds among those residents I know that came from Caribbean schools. Could just be confirmation bias but that's been my experience. If he goes that route he needs to make sure the school has opportunities to do clinical rotations in the US. This gives him a chance to meet people and make connections before residency applications and hopefully overcome some of the stigma associated with going to a Caribbean med school. Even if he kicks ass in med school his residency options will be more limited than someone with a similar record from a US school.

If he opts for a different medical career other than physician he should find something that he is truly interested in. For example a nurse is not a second rate doctor. It's a different but related career with different educational and practice priorities. So don't go to nursing school unless you actually want to be a nurse.

[psychobunny]

He needs to be interesting. While he may fall below some arbitrary cutoff for the best of the best schools, there are still a lot of schools where he won't. Grades and MCATs only get you past the first stage. After that, they want people who are diverse, interesting, and charismatic. I also second the idea of not ruling out osteopathic schools; their graduates are equal to any other doctors and they may have fewer applicants because of bias.

If he applies and doesn't get in, I recommend doing research-especially at a school he wants to attend. If he can impress current faculty, that may go a long way.

[Raza]

Thank you all so much for the answers thus far - each one is appreciated, and everyone has provided good information.

While he is doing his MCAT prep school work, he is also looking for a job in the field (hospital, doctor's office, etc). He specifically wants to avoid working at, say, the CDC - not because he hates lab or research work, but that he's been told that a concentration in a research field would imply that he is not that interested in practicing. Whether that is a valid concern I have no idea (and he probably doesn't either, but that's the advice he had been given).

Among other "sweeteners", would a Master's degree seemingly improve his med school chances?

As to being "diverse, interesting, and charismatic": he is diverse, of a sort (he's not white), and while not Hugh Grant-level charming, he is handsome and well-spoken and can speak confidently and charmingly. Interesting? Well, he wasn't on the football team, he's not a master of a musical instrument, nor a poet or any of a number of noteworthy things. He, like myself, is "average" in the interesting department (true, with myself there is a lot of unexpectedness beneath the surface, but that isn't necessarily "interesting"). I'm not throwing water on psychobunny's statement - I'm taking it as truth, as it most probably is true. And what it sounds like is: he darn better outperform on his MCAT, because he doesn't have many other arrows in his quiver!

Is that assessment likely accurate, at least for the norm?

[Bijou Drains]

I know a guy who had a low MCAT score so he got a MPH degree and then got into med school. Getting a MS degree in biology or a related field may also help.

[DSeid]

Sorry, Asian descent does not count as diversity to a medical school.

A Masters that means something to what he wants to do in medicine might help make him stand out, yes. Like that Master of Public Health (MPH) did. Actually likely to be a useful set of tools to a physician in the next several decades.

Which is why he should know for himself why he wants to be in medicine today.

Depending on his long term career ambitions an MBA might be useful, with an interest in healthcare services. Or a Masters in Social Work. Or Comp Sci. Or taking two years to work for an NGO delivering healthcare in challenging environments. Or a Masters in education .... But not just to buff his resume, to further his real goals, whatever they are.

[WhyNot]

I'm not in a position to answer 'doctor' questions, but I would also point out the various interesting non-doctor jobs including respiratory therapists, registered nurses and the like if your nephew is unable to get into medical school as a doctor.
I know you meant well by this, but the phrasing makes me stabby, 'cause:
...a nurse is not a second rate doctor. It's a different but related career with different educational and practice priorities. So don't go to nursing school unless you actually want to be a nurse.
thank you thank you thank you
It drives me up the friggin' wall when people say, "But you're so smart," or "You're so good at this" and follow it up with, "...why didn't you become a doctor?" I didn't become a doctor because I knew I'd be a good nurse! Nurses are not doctors light!

There were several foreign trained doctors with me in nursing school. Only one of the eight I started with were able to make it through the nursing program. Now I don't mean to say that nursing school is harder than medical school - it most certainly is not. But these guys couldn't turn off their "doctor brains" and think like nurses, use nursing diagnoses and nursing interventions. They couldn't make the right kind of rapport with their patients in clinicals. They may have been very good doctors (or awful ones, I don't honestly know), but they couldn't be good nurses.

So I'd suggest he make sure he's not look at nursing et al as a "fall-back". He should be looking at his options for what they are, not what they're not.

[lavenderviolet]

Caribbean schools are too risky nowadays. The US med schools are pumping out more grads to fill the residency spots and therefore there are fewer of the leftovers that used to go to the Caribbean docs.
Try for US "allopathic" (MD) and "osteopathic" (DO) schools (and if you don't know what a DO is, here's a little primer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States ). It is often a little easier to get into DO schools than MD schools because a lot of people don't understand what DOs are and therefore don't realize that they can do all the same things MDs can.
Make sure he signs up for http://forums.studentdoctor.net which is a great resource for pre-meds.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

I know a guy who had a low MCAT score so he got a MPH degree and then got into med school. Getting a MS degree in biology or a related field may also help.

Came here to say this. I know a number of folks who took this route to strengthen a more lackluster college premed career.

[Tom Tildrum]

There's always law school.

[Jackmannii]

While he is doing his MCAT prep school work, he is also looking for a job in the field (hospital, doctor's office, etc). He specifically wants to avoid working at, say, the CDC - not because he hates lab or research work, but that he's been told that a concentration in a research field would imply that he is not that interested in practicing. Whether that is a valid concern I have no idea (and he probably doesn't either, but that's the advice he had been given).There are med schools that are heavily oriented towards primary care (resulting in applicants who try to buff their CVs with primary care-type experiences and say they desperately want to be family doctors, whether they do or not). Having a research background might not be a plus at such places, but we do need M.D. researchers and such a background would likely help at other schools (if only as a contrast to the "I looove patients!" crowd). :)

I have heard that non-science experiences/training are getting more weight these days; how true that is I can't say. Maybe being a poet-in-residence somewhere would make him stand out. :)

[DSeid]

... Maybe being a poet-in-residence somewhere would make him stand out. :)
My medical school class had a poetry major! Every time it was his turn to do notes for our class notes coop he would finish off with an original poem too. (We also had a comp sci major, a former accountant, a former nurse, along with the usual crew of hard science ultra-geeks and the boring traditional folk like me.)

[Raza]

It sounds like getting a US residency is the choke point; if you don't end up in residency at a US hospital, you're pretty much out of the game; is that correct?

Assuming the above is true, then the next most-important point seems to be that going to a US school (MD or DO) is immensely more likely to get one into a US residency than a non-US program.

If I am mistaken in either of the above assertions, let me know.

[irishgirl]

It's not the non-US school that is the issue, if it is a GOOD non-US school.

I went to Trinity College Dublin, which is internationally recognised as a good medical school. In my class of 120 we had 40 international students, several from North America, the majority of whom went back for their internships and residencies, and who all got into decent residencies. One of the Canadian guys beat 300 other applicants for an anaesthetics residency in his hometown, others are working in Boston, LA, New York, Chicago and Dallas.

There is the phenomenon of the "Irish medical Mafia" of course- a network of former TCD graduates working in US and Canadian hospitals, who tend to have quite a tight network.


Your nephew needs to work on his strengths, and think of actions he took which highlight them.

EVERY med school applicant will be promoting themselves as smart, personable, caring, adaptable and with leadership potential. If you have concrete examples of things which PROVE this, you'll have an advantage.

Medical schools like people to be well rounded- medicine can only ever be a facet to your life, not the centre of it, because to be good at medicine, you have to be good at being a human being. So, pretty much, the antithesis of House.
If he doesn't have hobbies or interests, he needs to develop some ASAP.

No-one expects their doctor to be a concert violinist, but if he gets asked what his interests are and can't think of anything more than "I like to watch films" he'll have issues.

[Hello Again]

It sounds like getting a US residency is the choke point; if you don't end up in residency at a US hospital, you're pretty much out of the game; is that correct?

Assuming the above is true, then the next most-important point seems to be that going to a US school (MD or DO) is immensely more likely to get one into a US residency than a non-US program.

Do non-US schools even take part in the Match (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)#Matching)?

The Match is a heinous, game-show like experience in which applicants for residencies are matched to openings. It starts with an interview process, then applicants and hospitals each rank their preferences. A computer program optimizes the matches and you learn where you're going on Match Day.

If you are unmatched on Match Day at a US school your Dean will haul ass to get you a placement from unfilled openings (called "the scramble'). Not getting Matched doesn't necessarily mean you were a bad candidate. I could mean you didn't like the facilities who liked you.

If you aren't a part of the Match, you're scrambling for the dregs before you're even out of the gate.

[you with the face]

I'm a DVM, not a MD, but I feel qualified enough to speak on this based on how competitive vet school is.

A 3.3 GPA, by itself, is not a death blow if his undergrad has an academically tough reputation. I came out of school with similar grades (never fell below a C in any one class, though), but by the standards of my school, I performed great. Two vet schools accepted me.

Regardless of his grades, there are two things he should be doing right now to make himself an attractive candidate: acquiring healthcare experience and studying for the MCAT. If he can't find a job in the medical area, then he needs to volunteer at a hospital or something. If there are any MDs that might be willing to let him shadow, then he needs to be doing that.

Perhaps he could even consider volunteering/working at a veterinary clinic if he can't finagle himself into a hospital. Medicine is medicine whether you're talking about animals or humans, and this might make him stand out a little.

[phreesh]

I know you meant well by this, but the phrasing makes me stabby,

[SNIP]

It drives me up the friggin' wall when people say, "But you're so smart," or "You're so good at this" and follow it up with, "...why didn't you become a doctor?" I didn't become a doctor because I knew I'd be a good nurse! Nurses are not doctors light!

[SNIP]

So I'd suggest he make sure he's not look at nursing et al as a "fall-back". He should be looking at his options for what they are, not what they're not.

I both agree and disagree with you. I agree that he should be looking at options for what they are, not what they are not. And that a career in nursing can be challenging and rewarding.

However... Obtaining a nursing degree as a means to becoming a doctor is a legitimate path. While he may find a rewarding career as a nurse, he may also use the experience and education gained in becoming a nurse to then move on to becoming a doctor. And that experience will likely make him a better doctor.

It does not denigrate a job to use it as a stepping stone to other things. Doctors require more education and training than nurses. Many nurses move on to a career as a doctor. Some people want to be accountants, some want to be CFOs. The world needs both.

Finally, another advantage of becoming a nurse first is that he could work for a few years at a very good wage to save for further education.

[AndyLee]

Can he go back an retake classes to raise his GPA? I know of one guy who got into a DO program with a 2.75, while doing very well on the MCAT. The industry standard is 3.3 GPA, but different schools want different things. Like Johns Hopkins perfer a non-science undergrad degree. You also have to prove to JH admissions that you are really passionate about helping people so to have volunteer work as such, goes in your favor.

[Raza]

To really answer more completely though I'd need his answer, his honest one, not the one he'd give in an interview, to why he wants to be a doctor.

I just got a response from my nephew and wanted to reply with his words (with slight editing by me to remove identifying details, etc):

Many of these driving forces are the same cliches that med school interviewers hear every year ("I love helping people. I want to serve my fellow man. I have a deep and burning passion for science and how the body works" etc). Unfortunately as much as people cringe when hearing these cliches I believe that these cliches as driving forces are necessary but of course everyone adds a little bit more related to their particular circumstances which makes them stand out.

Yes, I do want to help people, yes I have a passion for science but one major reason is tied to my faith in a sort of indirect way. There is so much reward in my religion for helping others and what better way to rack up those good deeds than to make a career out of it. Sure I'm not the brightest tool in the shed but I have excellent interpersonal skills (if I do say so myself) and I am most definitely a hard worker. I have often been asked "well if you like helping people and want a career in healthcare then why not be something else like a PA or a Nurse practitioner?" Although those are great and respectable professions, I like to be more a leader than a follower. I know that I can handle the responsibilities that come with being a physician. Of course there are many more reasons why I want to go down this career route and these were just a few.

From what has been said in this thread, it sounds like his biggest focus trying to get in with his GPA should be:
A) doing absolutely as well on his MCAT as possible to make up for some ground lost with his GPA, and
B) differentiating himself from the pack as an individual (and I suspect his honest "why I want to be a doctor" explanation is probably somewhat typical of many candidates), and
C) trying to get real experience in the medical field.

Again, thanks to ALL of you for the excellent replies. Short of hearing from someone actually on a school's selection committee, I think you've all done very well (stagger backwards in the style of Mr. Grace).

[DSeid]

Thank him for that response.

He would definitely benefit from having some real world medical experience, in many ways. It may disabuse him some of the concept that as a doctor you are somehow more a leader than a follower than are many other members of the team. The fact is that we all work together and that while we physicians have more autonomy and control than do many other portions of the healthcare system we very much all both follow and lead and work cooperatively, often implementing (hopefully evidence based) guidelines that others have formulated. We are not quite as autonomous as we used to be; we instead work as part of delivery systems now. Yes there are physician leaders, but there are also nurse leaders, and so on. And being a "leader" often translates into being an administrator which means giving up some of (and for some all of) your clinical time. It again also must be noted that the marginal increase in autonomy that we physicians enjoy relative to some other members of the team comes at a significant price in terms of debt and time.

I would challenge him to figure out what he really has in mind when he says "lead" and how he pictures being a physician does that so much more than a variety of other career choices.

Then, if he does not get in on his first try, and he is sure that becoming a physician is still what he feels is the best path for him, get some experience that follows through on his faith based commitment to do good works. Or find a way to develop the administrative chops that really being a leader in medicine today requires. Or both at the same time.

Again, good luck to him.

[Clothahump]

Can he "rehabilitate" by retaking the low grade classes and pulling the grades up?

[you with the face]

"There is so much reward in my religion for helping others and what better way to rack up those good deeds than to make a career out of it."

Not trying to be overly critical here, but I'd advise your nephew to think long and hard about this sentence before he works it into his interview spiel. It sounds like his main motivation for pursuing this track is potential blessings in the afterlife. Although it may not seem like it because faith is being invoked, this is as shallow as him saying he wants to be a doc so he can make a lot of money and drive a Jag. He should be applauded for being honest, but I can't imagine any schools being impressed by someone who wants to "rack up good deeds" to score points with The Lord.

[Jackmannii]

"Sure I'm not the brightest tool in the shed but I have excellent interpersonal skills (if I do say so myself) and I am most definitely a hard worker."

I recommend not using this line during the interview.

One option for your nephew is to do what I did coming out of college - work horrendous hours for low pay in an industry peopled by loonies and slackers with little future, recognize the futility involved, get back into school and rack up really good grades. He could then tell the med schools he'd be so grateful to be a doctor that he'd never ever bitch about hours, pay, government interference, insurance companies, demanding patients or any of the usual crap. Perhaps he could even consider volunteering/working at a veterinary clinic if he can't finagle himself into a hospital. Medicine is medicine whether you're talking about animals or humans, and this might make him stand out a little."My hobby was animal husbandry, until they caught me.*"


*Apologies to Tom Lehrer.

[lavenderviolet]

It sounds like getting a US residency is the choke point; if you don't end up in residency at a US hospital, you're pretty much out of the game; is that correct?
Assuming the above is true, then the next most-important point seems to be that going to a US school (MD or DO) is immensely more likely to get one into a US residency than a non-US program.

Yes, those are both accurate. Not getting a residency means you probably won't be able to work as a doctor in America (and probably not in most other countries either since the American medical system is actually one of the ones that is MOST accepting of MDs from other countries). In spite of the US being an easier place for a foreign MD to get a residency than other countries, it is still harder in a variety of ways for people trying to get into residency here if they went to a medical school outside of the United States.
For example:

1) Everyone in the medical world knows that Caribbean med schools are a "last resort" option for people who could not get into an American MD or DO school, and that stigma means that Carib people have to work harder to be viewed as being "equivalent" to the US grads (I will say that I have worked alongside docs from Caribbean med schools and they were no better or worse than US grads - it really is about the individual, not the school - but still there is the stigma on Carib people).
2) It is often helpful to have a mentor in med school who knows people at other residency programs and can "make phone calls" for you to help you match. Usually Caribbean and overseas med schools don't have people with those kinds of connections on faculty.
3) Being a US medical grad makes it easier to get accepted for away rotations at desirable residency programs, and if a residency has observed your work personally that can help your application immensely.
4) Another problem with the Caribbean stigma is that even if you do work hard to prove you're an equal to the US grads, some programs are insecure enough about their image and prestige that they will try their best to avoid taking Carib grads just because of how it will look to OTHERS if their program has too many foreign docs in it.
5) Since the US is one of the few places that will take foreign MDs, there are many very qualified applicants from places like India who are vying for a spot here too. Many programs might prefer to have a brilliant superstar MD from the best medical school in India than someone who didn't have a good enough academic record to make it into a US med school.

So, yes, it is really important to look at how likely you are to be able to secure a US residency from your med school.

[lavenderviolet]

Regardless of his grades, there are two things he should be doing right now to make himself an attractive candidate: acquiring healthcare experience and studying for the MCAT. If he can't find a job in the medical area, then he needs to volunteer at a hospital or something. If there are any MDs that might be willing to let him shadow, then he needs to be doing that.

Perhaps he could even consider volunteering/working at a veterinary clinic if he can't finagle himself into a hospital. Medicine is medicine whether you're talking about animals or humans, and this might make him stand out a little.

I agree that doing volunteer work is essential, but I am concerned that because of how competitive getting into vet school is, if he lists veterinary experience on his application then MD schools may assume (even if not correctly) that he is only applying to medical school as a backup to vet school. Any hint of not being 100% committed to medicine is going to look very bad to admissions people at med school.

[irishgirl]

He needs to re-think the nurse= follower/ Dr= leader thing.

As whynot stated so eloquently, it is a matter of completely different skill sets and ways of thinking, and suit very different types of people. It's not a boss/secretary relationship the way many people seem to think.

Drs are, if nothing else, a bunch of stubborn, pigheaded, individualists with a strong streak of sheer willful contrariness, who on the whole enjoy taking risks and flying by the seat of their pants.

Nurses on the whole are kind, compassionate people who are methodical, conscientious and enjoy working through clearly written protocols.

Nurse clinics tend to involve a set protocol which varies little from patient to patient, and which has to be implemented thoroughly time after time.
Example- asthma education and explaining to 20 patients in a row how to use an inhaler.

Most nurses would find this fulfilling and rewarding work.

Most doctors would find something like that akin to purgatory.

A day without risk, and variety and some level of medical complexity and uncertainty is not a good day for most doctors. We see protocols and think of ways to exempt the patient from it, or shortcut it.

Nurses don't, and that it why, thank goodness, they do so much chronic disease management.

[VOW]

Question: Would he consider military or Public Health Service?

If he's eligible to serve in the military, he needs to talk to a recruiter who specializes in officers. Acceptance would mean that Uncle Sam pays for his medical school, and then he owes Uncle Sam a year-for-year payback for the training.


~VOW

[irishgirl]

lavenderviolet BTW- you're wrong about the USA being one of the most accepting countries WRT foreign Drs.

I can work in any EU country, India, Pakistan, most of the Gulf states, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and most of Africa, at the same level (GP) as I currently work in the UK, with minimal hoops to jump through (maybe a language test).

Only in the USA would I need to re-enter hospital and do a full residency.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Many of these driving forces are the same cliches that med school interviewers hear every year ("I love helping people. I want to serve my fellow man. I have a deep and burning passion for science and how the body works" etc). Unfortunately as much as people cringe when hearing these cliches I believe that these cliches as driving forces are necessary but of course everyone adds a little bit more related to their particular circumstances which makes them stand out.

Yes, I do want to help people, yes I have a passion for science but one major reason is tied to my faith in a sort of indirect way. There is so much reward in my religion for helping others and what better way to rack up those good deeds than to make a career out of it. Sure I'm not the brightest tool in the shed but I have excellent interpersonal skills (if I do say so myself) and I am most definitely a hard worker. I have often been asked "well if you like helping people and want a career in healthcare then why not be something else like a PA or a Nurse practitioner?" Although those are great and respectable professions, I like to be more a leader than a follower. I know that I can handle the responsibilities that come with being a physician. Of course there are many more reasons why I want to go down this career route and these were just a few.

Splendid news! You asked earlier what sorts of experiences an applicant might be able to use to mitigate a relatively low (for med school admission) undergraduate GPA.

Well! His experiences where he implemented those values he talked about above—helping others, taking leadership roles—are just those sorts of experiences.

He does actually have them, right?

[Raza]

VOW, I actually think a military career would be great for him, but mostly for my own personal reasons*.

If he went the military route with MD or DO in mind, I understand that the military would (if meeting a variety of conditions) pick up the tab, but would that make acceptance into the school any easier?

*(I came of age in the 70s. In the 70s, the military in general was not well-thought-of, particularly by teenagers. While I don't regret my career choices, I think I would have been very happy in the military, so I'm keen on my nieces/nephews considering that career choice)

[redtail23]

Not any sort of medical person here, but he might want to rethink his stance on physician assistants and nurse practitioners. I think he has a vast misunderstanding of how they work.

I have one doctor that I've never seen - just the NP. The doctor's name is on the bills, but that's the only contact I have with her.

Took my mom to a specialist - she saw the actual MD once; he didn't do anything special. All other visits and ongoing care were with the PA. He saw Mom, got her history and symptoms, made diagnoses, and prescribed care. If you didn't know that his title was PA, you'd have assumed he was "the doctor".

I've had similar experiences with PAs and NPs for other specialists, also. It's not like they go running to the physician every few minutes to get instructions. They do patient care just like a doctor - except that they call on his expertise when needed (very rarely IME).

Personally, if given a choice, I'll always make an appointment with a PA or NP before the actual doctor. In my experience, they do more (and often better) whole-patient care than the actual physicians.

So if he's truly interested in patient care and helping people, those are really good options. He would still work independently, not as "a follower". And NPs in group practices (more and more these days) are often "leaders" for clinics.

[Jackmannii]

Nurses on the whole are kind, compassionate people who are methodical, conscientious and enjoy working through clearly written protocols.And planning their vacation schedules. :)

[USCDiver]

Former Med School Admissions Committee member checking in:

There is a lot of good advice in this thread. My opinion is that the 3.3GPA is definitely NOT a deal breaker. He really does need to focus on his MCAT and his extracurriculars though. I assume since he's taking the MCAT this Spring that he will be applying through AMCAS in the Fall and interviewing later in the year all the way through March 2013.

My medical school was one of several Primary Care focused schools that opened in the late 1970s to address shortages. We had lower GPA/MCAT cut offs for in-state students vs out of state in terms of getting an interview. After that, we gve some preference to applicants who demonstrated interest in primary care medicine. In the end, acceptance was based on the entire application and interview.

I would strongly advise him to get a job or volunteer in a medical setting where he is actually involved in patient care in some way (i.e. not volunteering in the gift shop at the hospital). In my own world (the ER) many groups are employing pre-med students to serve as scribes expediting documentation and patient throughput. This would be a great job for just about any eventual field of medicine because he will see a little bit of everything working there.

Also he should cast a wide net in his application. It starts to get expensive and time consuming sending your application all over the country and filling out secondary application essays, but it might make the difference in getting in somewhere in NYC vs not getting in at all.

With regards to residency, there is a definite bias against Foreign Medical Grads and to some extent DOs in getting US residency spots but depending on his chosen specialty, that is not an insurmountable obstacle.

USCDiver, MD

[USCDiver]

Do non-US schools even take part in the Match (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)#Matching)?

The Match is a heinous, game-show like experience in which applicants for residencies are matched to openings. It starts with an interview process, then applicants and hospitals each rank their preferences. A computer program optimizes the matches and you learn where you're going on Match Day.

If you are unmatched on Match Day at a US school your Dean will haul ass to get you a placement from unfilled openings (called "the scramble'). Not getting Matched doesn't necessarily mean you were a bad candidate. I could mean you didn't like the facilities who liked you.

If you aren't a part of the Match, you're scrambling for the dregs before you're even out of the gate.

Well, the Match is between residencies and graduates, it has nothing to do with the schools themselves. Foreign medical grads are just as welcome to submit their information as any other qualifying graduate.

It isn't quite as heinous as you make it out to be and it does a fairly good job of ensuring that the students get into one of their top choice residencies and that the programs get candidates they want.

The Scramble is a nerve wracking experience (I should know), but it happens before 'Match Day' and the Dean has nothing to do with it aside from providing a space for Scramblers to call and fax their applications to open programs. In the end it all falls on the Student to find a spot.

Most residencies have agreements not to take any applicants outside of the Match unless they cannot fill their spots during the Scramble.

[Raza]

Thank you again for all the responses, and of course having USCDiver's input is certainly welcome. I know that to each of you it is just a posting on a message board, but I assure you this young man values each piece of advice or anecdote given in this thread.

If anyone has anything to add about the "military option", or can point to further information on the subject, that would be most appreciated.

[horsetech]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/

They even have an entire sub-forum for military medicine.

[horsetech]

:smack: Sorry, I missed lavenderviolet's post the first time around.

BTW, it's a bit of a tangent, but it is no longer true that vet school is more competitive than med school. About half of students who apply to vet school will get in to an accredited school (and for learning to be a small animal vet, where you go is not very important in terms of job outlook, etc.), but since most students apply to multiple schools, the numbers look worse than they actually are. That's on par with or less competitive than med school applicants.