Dear Ex-wife: Pls, thank your imaginary god for giving my son nightmares!

[Shakes]

Un-fucking-believable!

I have a 13yo autistic son. He has problems with nightmares. Over the past few years, I have spent a significant amount of time teaching him how ghosts and other stuff like that he sees on TV is not real.

I've gone into detail. I've explained to him how trick photography and film editing works to make all these things look real. After much explanation, he finally came to understand. His bad dreams were less frequent.

So the other day I pick my son up from school. The first thing he asks me when he gets in the car is:

Son: "Are demons real?"

Me: "No they are not."

Son: "Mom says they are real."

Me: " I'm sure she doesn't think that. She probably meant something else."

The conversation dropped from there.

When I got home, I made a call to my dear ex-wife. In private so my son couldn't hear. At this point I wasn't pissed. Despite being divorced, my ex and I are pretty good at compromise when it comes to raising our children:

Me: [after discussing about his school, etc..] "....BTW, I know you're a Christian and I'm not asking you stop teaching our son about your beliefs. But can you please NOT tell him demons are real? It will give him nightmares."

Her: "But demons ARE real"

Me: "Why would you tell our son that?"

Her: "He needs to know about demons because there are evil infuences in this world...."

Me: "OK, yeah, that's great. Thanks, bye." [click]

I'll admit hanging up on her was a dick move. My emotions got the better of me.

So yeah, now I'm going to vent. In the past I've always taken a hands off approach when it comes to religion and my children. When asked, I tell them that I personally don't believe but a lot of people do. You have to decide for yourself what suits you.

Now, I fucking regret that. I should have just told them from day one that it's all BS.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with you ex-wife? You'd risk giving your own son nightmares just to satisfy your own self righteous beliefs in some unproven sky fairy?

FU!

[Gagundathar]

The belief in demons is one of the worst characteristics of Christianity.
It ranks right up there with the belief that no other religion has anything to offer.

[aruvqan]

The belief in demons is one of the worst characteristics of Christianity.
It ranks right up there with the belief that no other religion has anything to offer.
That is one of the things that bothers me about a couple of the current crop of paranormal shows. It seems that they are not satisfied on seeing if there is a ghost there, everywhere seems to have a handy dandy portal to hell with demons on the side.:dubious:

I have no problems with ghosts as either dead people or animals. I have no problem with the idea of nature spirits in the form of small capricious pranksters. I have seen some whacked things happen over the years. I do have a problem with the idea that there are fallen angels [I don't actually believe in the angels/demons form of Christianity. If you want my beliefs without discussion, I believe there probably was a rabbi that we base Jesus on. He may or may have not given all the speeches attributed to him. He may or may not have been executed. A whole industry has grown up around his apparent teachings, with one main interpreter winging it after never having actually met him. I have no problem with the golden rule version of teachings but I think the churches themselves are very wrong about many things.]

[WhyNot]

"'Demons' is a word your mom and some other people use to talk about people who do bad things and try to get you to do bad things. People like that exist, but they're not going to get into this house."

[Czarcasm]

"'Demons' is a word your mom and some other people use to talk about people who do bad things and try to get you to do bad things. People like that exist, but they're not going to get into this house."That's not going to work. If he is having a problem with nightmares, he is going to remember the bigger and more powerful monsters his mother is describing.

[jjimm]

The belief in demons is one of the worst characteristics of Christianity.
It ranks right up there with the belief that no other religion has anything to offer.In fairness to Christianity, it's only certain sects that believe in demons - or talk about them as if they're real and not metaphors; and believing that no other religion has anything to offer is also something that's not universal in Christianity, and certainly something that's shared by most religions.

Look at me, defending Christianity in the Pit! WTF?

[jjimm]

As a practical suggestion, I'm not familiar with how much metaphor autistic kids can grasp, and am aware that it can be a problem, but would this approach work? "Some people - including your mom - believe in those things, but other people think they're just stories to frighten kids. I think they're just stories - don't you?" and demonstrate the imaginary nature of such things immediately by using a story that contains benign mythical creatures that he knows are fictitious?

[Musicat]

We used to think that demons caused disease and earthquakes. We now know better. Ask your Ex if they still do and the germ theory and plate techtonics is nonsense?

[Czarcasm]

As a practical suggestion, I'm not familiar with how much metaphor autistic kids can grasp, and am aware that it can be a problem, but would this approach work? "Some people - including your mom - believe in those things, but other people think they're just stories to frighten kids. I think they're just stories - don't you?" and demonstrate the imaginary nature of such things immediately by using a story that contains benign mythical creatures that he knows are fictitious?The louder and more strident voice will still win out.

[Thudlow Boink]

I'm convinced that metaphorical demons are real. But I don't know how well an autistic 13-year-old would understand the concept of metaphorical demons, and in any case, that's not what your ex-wife is telling him.

I am agnostic as to the existence or nature of real, non-metaphorical demons; nothing in my own experience qualifies me to say one way or the other. But I have never, in my considerable time on this earth, encountered any, or seen any reason to worry about them. I'm guessing you haven't either; would it comfort your son to tell him so?

[constanze]

If you follow Bettelheim's approach (meant for young children who still believe the world is magical) you tell him how to kill demons.

In that case, with a crucifix or similar, which will also suit your ex-wife.

[constanze]

If you follow Bettelheim's approach (meant for young children who still believe the world is magical) you tell him how to kill demons.

In that case, with a crucifix or similar, which will also suit your ex-wife.

[Farmer Jane]

I think if she believes in demons, she believes in demons. It's her right to educate your son about her religion...BUT...isn't there a better way to go about this? If she believes in Jesus, can't she tell him that Jesus will protect him? Or wait til he's older to talk about scary stuff?

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

"'Demons' is a word your mom and some other people use to talk about people who do bad things and try to get you to do bad things. People like that exist, but they're not going to get into this house."

The fear is irrational. Telling him any bad guy is out there but don't worry, he won't get in here won't work. His fear is that the bad stuff is stronger than they are and will get in.

[John Mace]

The next time you do movie night with the kid, do not rent The Exorcist.

[Kobal2]

If you follow Bettelheim's approach (meant for young children who still believe the world is magical) you tell him how to kill demons.

In that case, with a crucifix or similar, which will also suit your ex-wife.

Authoritative sources* suggest a cold iron (or was it solid silver ? I forget) firepoker. As a bonus, it also works on non-supernatural threats like muggers or mathematics teachers.

* Sir T. Pratchett, in Hogfather

[Vinyl Turnip]

If you follow Bettelheim's approach (meant for young children who still believe the world is magical) you tell him how to kill demons.

In that case, with a crucifix or similar, which will also suit your ex-wife.

Yes, a sharpened crucifix. And then tell him his mommy is a demon and must be stopped.

[KRC]

Wait, what's this with the sharpened crucifix? My mother told me if I was ever threatened by Dracula to make the sign of the cross with my fingers. It worked. I dreamed terrorists, werewolves, cops, mobsters, the CIA and whatever were coming to get me but I never had a problem with Dracula.

[Sampiro]

Me: "OK, yeah, that's great. Thanks, bye." [click]

I'll admit hanging up on her was a dick move. My emotions got the better of me.



FWIW, I don't think it was a dick move. If you'd stayed on the phone there would have been a screaming match and at best your position would not have improved but it could well have it made it worse.

If you follow Bettelheim's approach (meant for young children who still believe the world is magical) you tell him how to kill demons.

In that case, with a crucifix or similar, which will also suit your ex-wife.

In that short post we just witnessed a reenactment of the birth of most organized religions.;)

My sister- a very intelligent (albeit completely acritical) and successful woman- not only believes in demons but thinks they're responsible for a lot of mental and physical illnesses, drug addiction, Barack Obama (wish I could say I was making that up), etc.. She would scoff at the concept of a 9 year old who still believes in Santa Claus or an adult who goes to psychics, she's scoffed at ads for Ghost Tours in cities like New Orleans and St. Augustine that we've been to together (I always enjoy those- have no doubts that any truth in them is wildly distorted but the legends themselves are interested), and polytheism is just plain silly, but demons, of course they're real! I've never understood that sort of dissonance.

[Little Nemo]

I think if she believes in demons, she believes in demons. It's her right to educate your son about her religion...BUT...isn't there a better way to go about this? If she believes in Jesus, can't she tell him that Jesus will protect him? Or wait til he's older to talk about scary stuff?Exactly. You may not share a person's beliefs but you shouldn't act like their beliefs aren't sincerely held. If a mother sincerely believes that demons exist, she's going to feel she needs to protect her children against demons by warning them.

Look at it this way. Suppose you were a devout Christian Scientist and your ex-wife wasn't. Would you get mad if she warned your child he needed to wash his hands before eating? Or would you tell her not to scare your kid with her made-up talk about these invisible things called "germs" that you know aren't real?

Put a bible or a crucifix in the kid's room and tell him that the people who believe in demons also believe that a demon can't come into any room that has a bible or cross in it. Later on, he may decide on his own that demons don't exist and bibles and crosses have no special powers. But for now, don't turn this into a confrontation over religion. Put your son's well-being above the need to argue beliefs with your ex-wife.

[BrainGlutton]

So, have you tried exorcizing the autism-demons?

That's what Jesus would've done.

[Kobal2]

and polytheism is just plain silly, but demons, of course they're real! I've never understood that sort of dissonance.

(bolding mine)
This is all the more puzzling that the existence of other gods is not disputed in the Bible at all - in the OT, when the protagonists go and fuck up some other tribe, they don't claim "ha ha, your god doesn't exist !", on the contrary they go "your punkass god ain't got shit on our god !".

For that matter, third party gods are even implicitly acknowledged in the very first Commandment.

[Typo Negative]

Tell him the demons report directly to you.

[Eliahna]

Wait, what's this with the sharpened crucifix? My mother told me if I was ever threatened by Dracula to make the sign of the cross with my fingers. It worked. I dreamed terrorists, werewolves, cops, mobsters, the CIA and whatever were coming to get me but I never had a problem with Dracula.
To me, the sign of the cross seems a better protection to teach him to use than a bible or crucifix because he can't lose it or leave it behind, and no one can take it from him. As long as he has the use of his hands, he can make his magic protective symbol in the air and banish demons back to hell.

[Lobohan]

You could tell him that demons are drawn to devotion because they want to kill those that truly believe in Jesus. So his best defense is to not believe in Jesus, so that the demons have no reason to hurt him.

Also let him know that under no circumstances will Jesus save one of his faithful from demonic attack. Mysterious ways and shit.

[Little Nemo]

To me, the sign of the cross seems a better protection to teach him to use than a bible or crucifix because he can't lose it or leave it behind, and no one can take it from him. As long as he has the use of his hands, he can make his magic protective symbol in the air and banish demons back to hell.Then he might become afraid to fall asleep because he won't be able to ward off demons. I'd say giving him a passive "defense" works better.

[Little Nemo]

You could tell him that demons are drawn to devotion because they want to kill those that truly believe in Jesus. So his best defense is to not believe in Jesus, so that the demons have no reason to hurt him.

Also let him know that under no circumstances will Jesus save one of his faithful from demonic attack. Mysterious ways and shit.Right, because scaring your child is okay as long as you score points in a religious war with your ex.

[Lobohan]

Right, because scaring your child is okay as long as you score points in a religious war with your ex.That's much less scary than believing in according-to-Hoyle demons existing and being after you.

Winning the religious war is a nice side effect. :D

[Guinastasia]

That's much less scary than believing in according-to-Hoyle demons existing and being after you.

Winning the religious war is a nice side effect. :D

And scare some autistic kid in the process. Nice.

[Lobohan]

And scare some autistic kid in the process. Nice.His mother is already scaring him. You can either contradict her, which she'll fight, or you can deflect her and distort the nonsense she's telling him.

Also, it was a joke. Derp!

[Beastly Rotter]

Authoritative sources* suggest a cold iron (or was it solid silver ? I forget) firepoker. As a bonus, it also works on non-supernatural threats like muggers or mathematics teachers.

* Sir T. Pratchett, in Hogfather

Or that a determined nine year old girl can stake her little brother out as a lure and then get up in a demon's face with a cast-iron frying pan and a good swing.

“Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.”
― G.K. Chesterton

[The Second Stone]

Explain to your son that his nightmares are his subconscious trying to deal with unrecognized and unresolved anger issues.

[Thudlow Boink]

“Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.”
― G.K. ChestertonThis is precisely what this thread made me think of.

Although, in attempting to track down the precise wording and source of the quote, I learned that the above is apparently a paraphrase by Neil Gaiman, and what Chesterton actually wrote was

"Fairy tales do not give a child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon."

(cite (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton))

[Typo Knig]

As the father of a 17 year old autistic kid, I must ask my fellow Dopers to not - I say again NOT - bring up Bruno Bettelheim in an autism thread again. Ever. Under any circumstances. This Board is about fighting ignorance. Bettelheim was not. I hope I have said enough here. Moving on.

Shakes, Autistic kids often have difficulty with metaphorical concepts, and with what is metaphorical and what isn't. How does he deal with his Mom's religion in general as a concept? As a practice? Where do his beliefs lie? You might be able to use that when you talk with him about this. I don't know your son - this approach might not work with him. Spates of nightmares are bad, even without any other issues. I predict this will get better, but you can have a tough time until then.

You'll also need to talk with your ex about this, at a time of your choosing when you are likely to remain calm. You'll have to remind your ex that about how hard it is for the son that you both share to separate out, um, different flavors of "real". As in "really real" versus "really included in Mr. Moses and Mr. Joshua's Book of Unusual Stories". If the concept of demons is scaring him, she might find this a good time to emphasize other aspects of her faith. Like charity, good works, taking care of her own family. You know - the stuff Jesus might do, instead of scaring the fuck out of her own kid.

On a related note, for your viewing pleasure: "Seriously, I thought that was metaphorical" (http://www.eatliver.com/img/2011/7991.jpg)

[Measure for Measure]

Wait, what's this with the sharpened crucifix? My mother told me if I was ever threatened by Dracula to make the sign of the cross with my fingers. It worked. I dreamed terrorists, werewolves, cops, mobsters, the CIA and whatever were coming to get me but I never had a problem with Dracula. More seriously, your son might try lucid dreaming: I found it reasonably effective in fighting nightmares when I was, um, 5 or 6. Of course I didn't know the term back then.

If something scary happens, ask yourself whether you are dreaming. If you are dreaming, then, well, it's in your head. So you can fight back. For example you can fly away. It's a dream. Now the dream will sometimes "Push back". Don't worry about it though, just keep flying. Or try something else. It's a dream: you can do that.

The key challenge is remembering to check whether you are dreaming or not.

[PandaBear77]

So *has* he had any nightmares from this?

[digs]

As a Born-Again Recovering Fundie But Still a Personal Drinking Friend of Jesus, I think your wife made the dick move first. What the hell was she thinking?

Do pop back in here and give us an update. Maybe by now she's thought about what she did, and maybe you two have discussed ways to do some damage control.

Praying for your kid ... ... really!

ps: There are some delightfully evil people here: sharpened crucifixes and "exorcizing the autism-demons" indeed! You DO know they were kidding, right?

[Guinastasia]

Could you also give him a cross to wear around his neck? Perhaps that might make him feel better.

[Beastly Rotter]

This is precisely what this thread made me think of.

Although, in attempting to track down the precise wording and source of the quote, I learned that the above is apparently a paraphrase by Neil Gaiman, and what Chesterton actually wrote was

"Fairy tales do not give a child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon."

(cite (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton))

Many thanks for that.

[Shagnasty]

I am not especially religious. I am a casual Episcopalian which is about as bland as it gets. We treat Christianity as a social club of values. I have seen the dark side of Christianity though in willfully ignorant people and I do not approve. The New Testament is remarkably bland and gives little to no credibly to many of the things some Christian sects hold as core mythology. I don't think most of them ever read the Bible including the ones that proclaim themselves biblical fundamentalists. The level of ignorance is astounding given that they just have one source book to work with for their entire lives.

Can you imagine someone reading the whole Harry Potter series and then giving sermons and whole plotlines based on it for characters that never existed in the original work? It is the same thing.

Almost everything that is used as mythology or imagery in certain Christian denominations is from roughly a thousand years or more after Christianity was founded give or take a few hundred years.

Satan doesn't exist in the Bible at all in the way that is commonly portrayed.
Angels do not either nor does hell.
Likewise demons do not.

If you read the source work, it is remarkable how many gratuitousness addons were made over time and many people accept them now as much as the original texts simply because several hundred years old is the same as 2000+ in most people's minds because they have no concept of long time periods.

If your son can read internet articles, let him see the following cracked.com article. They don't give anything new. The basic point is a bunch of people hijacked the Christian logo, piled on a whole heaping pile of shit, and tried to make it the one true way even though it is completely false even under their own standards of biblical fundamentalism.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18757_5-things-you-wont-believe-arent-in-bible.html

[Shakes]

So *has* he had any nightmares from this?

It has only been one night, but no, he has not. So here's to keeping my fingers crossed and hope they don't happen.

I will consider giving him a cross necklace. I really don't want to but I will. First though, I think I'll wait it out and see if this becomes a problem. I may have jumped the gun with my rant.

[digs]

It has only been one night, but no, he has not. So here's to keeping my fingers crossed and hope they don't happen.

I will consider giving him a cross necklace. I really don't want to but I will. First though, I think I'll wait it out and see if this becomes a problem. I may have jumped the gun with my rant.

That's what we're here for. Jump away.

Seriously, I hope for your son's sake you did.
I've always been amazed by the fact that my kids are so much more resilient than I expect.

[WhyNot]

That's not going to work. If he is having a problem with nightmares, he is going to remember the bigger and more powerful monsters his mother is describing.
Actually, it doesn't sound incompatible with Mom's version of demons:

Her: "He needs to know about demons because there are evil infuences in this world...."
I bet she would agree that drug dealers, child rapists and murderers are either demons or controlled (hurt) by demons.
The fear is irrational. Telling him any bad guy is out there but don't worry, he won't get in here won't work. His fear is that the bad stuff is stronger than they are and will get in.
I think his fear is very rational. Someone he trusts has told him that demons, evil influences in the world, could hurt him. He finds that frightening. How is that not rational?

Of course. Shakes knows his son, and I don't, so it's entirely possible that acknowledging his fear as real and appropriate, and then giving him a new piece of information to allay his fears is the wrong method to take here. Maybe he'd be happier with a bottle of "monster spray" like my daughter needed back in the day. I dunno. Just throwing it out there as a possible way to handle it without turning it into a battle with Mom.

[Farmer Jane]

More seriously, your son might try lucid dreaming: I found it reasonably effective in fighting nightmares when I was, um, 5 or 6. Of course I didn't know the term back then.

If something scary happens, ask yourself whether you are dreaming. If you are dreaming, then, well, it's in your head. So you can fight back. For example you can fly away. It's a dream. Now the dream will sometimes "Push back". Don't worry about it though, just keep flying. Or try something else. It's a dream: you can do that.

The key challenge is remembering to check whether you are dreaming or not.

For me, I hold my breath. Then I wake up. Maybe he can try that as well.

I'm wondering if the kid isn't having hypnagogia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia)? He may actually feel that crushing of the chest/seeing demons/etc feeling.

[Cat Whisperer]

Now that you've cooled off, Shakes, I think you need to go back to the conversation with your ex-wife. If you tell her that teaching your son to believe in demons is giving him nightmares, do you think she might be able to soften that somehow, or does she not care about that?

[Shakes]

Now that you've cooled off, Shakes, I think you need to go back to the conversation with your ex-wife. If you tell her that teaching your son to believe in demons is giving him nightmares, do you think she might be able to soften that somehow, or does she not care about that?

This is why I got so aggravated in my phone call. She knows about the nightmares as well as I do. I can't imagine she wouldn't make the connection that the thought of real demons out there might give him nightmares.

[Guinastasia]

It doesn't necessarily have to be a cross, it could be any kind of necklace, or talisman, just something that acts as a security blanket for your son.

(Do you have a pet? If so, tell him demons are scared of Fluffy or Rover)

Just curious -- what is your son's "mental age"? You said he's autistic, but how highly functioning is he?

[Brunhilda]

Could you perhaps get a mellow pastor from one of the more progressive Churches -- like the Episcopalian church, or perhaps the UCC to talk to your kid? If you explain the problem to someone with some pastoral sense, they may have a solution. What your wife did was not cool.

[Anduril]

It has only been one night, but no, he has not. So here's to keeping my fingers crossed and hope they don't happen.

I will consider giving him a cross necklace. I really don't want to but I will. First though, I think I'll wait it out and see if this becomes a problem. I may have jumped the gun with my rant.

Speaking as someone who used to have demon-themed nightmares and Catholic to boot, I don't think that will work. Explaining what the cross is for will only reinforce the demon-belief. Doing the sign of the cross and actually praying before bed time will only intensify the occurence and severity of the nightmares precisely because those acts just reinforces the belief further. Best thing will be to ridicule the idea. A friend of mine did for my benefit and my nightmares left me.

[Typo Knig]

If you do give him a talisman to ward off the nightmares, tell it it's just to help him learn how to ward off nightmares in his own, and in a few days he won't need the talisman. Might help, just a thought.

[faithfool]

Speaking as someone who used to have demon-themed nightmares and Catholic to boot, I don't think that will work. Explaining what the cross is for will only reinforce the demon-belief. Doing the sign of the cross and actually praying before bed time will only intensify the occurence and severity of the nightmares precisely because those acts just reinforces the belief further. Best thing will be to ridicule the idea. A friend of mine did for my benefit and my nightmares left me.

I'm not religion bashing, but I basically agree with this. I was raised by a fundamentalist who espouses the same beliefs and I still, at 43 years old, have dreams where I think demons are killing me and dragging me off to hell.

If anyone had disabused me of this notion at an early age, I'd still be grateful. Because its a hell of a lot easier to overcome something as a small child then after years of therapy as an adult.

Good luck to you and your son.

[Clothahump]

Tell him flat out that his mother and the religion are both liars.

[constanze]

As the father of a 17 year old autistic kid, I must ask my fellow Dopers to not - I say again NOT - bring up Bruno Bettelheim in an autism thread again. Ever. Under any circumstances. This Board is about fighting ignorance. Bettelheim was not. I hope I have said enough here. Moving on.

I did NOT cite Bettelheim for what he said about autism, but only for his reference to the role fairy tales play.

But fine: a scientist like Bettelheim can't be cited against ignorance, but a bon-mot guy like Chesterton, saying exactly the same thing, is valid. Acknowledged. Next time, I will try to find English writers first to cite instead of European scientists.

[constanze]

In that short post we just witnessed a reenactment of the birth of most organized religions.;)

Wow, what a wonderful way to completly ignore all context! :rolleyes: After all, there is no difference in explaining to a small or autistic child (i.e. delayed) how to cope with nightmares by giving them a tool that wards of demons, which most children who develop normally will later put aside; and the beliefs of adult people.

[Typo Knig]

I did NOT cite Bettelheim for what he said about autism, but only for his reference to the role fairy tales play.

But fine: a scientist like Bettelheim can't be cited against ignorance, but a bon-mot guy like Chesterton, saying exactly the same thing, is valid. Acknowledged. Next time, I will try to find English writers first to cite instead of European scientists.

Read what Bettelheim did to autistic patients and their familes. Then see if you can call him anything honorable and maintain a striaght face.

[Maastricht]

As a practical suggestion, I'm not familiar with how much metaphor autistic kids can grasp, and am aware that it can be a problem, but would this approach work? "Some people - including your mom - believe in those things, but other people think they're just stories to frighten kids. I think they're just stories - don't you?" and demonstrate the imaginary nature of such things immediately by using a story that contains benign mythical creatures that he knows are fictitious?Yes, and Shakes might add: " stories are used to frighten kids and also adult into being good. But you don't need that, because here is how we try our best to be good.."

[BigT]

I personally would be using the Christian stuff not at the kid, but at the mom. Why does the kid need to be worried about demons? Doesn't she believe that Jesus is strong enough to protect him? Where's HER faith? Why is she trying to instill a Spirit of Fear in the child? Why isn't she instead praying a "hedge of protection" around the child, trying to keep all the demons away?

Why in the world does she think a 12 year old autistic child is ready to be fighting demons on his own? Oh, and what Scripture is she using for that decision?

My point is that this woman who proclaims to be a Christian is not acting like one in regards to her son. I went through a time when I believed demons were out to get me, and even I wouldn't have told someone I loved that I knew had problems with fear.

Note: This is not advice. This is what I would want to do in the situation. I don't know that it wouldn't make things worse. I just wanted to offer the perspective that even someone who does believe in demons shouldn't be doing this.

[FriarTed]

I personally would be using the Christian stuff not at the kid, but at the mom. Why does the kid need to be worried about demons? Doesn't she believe that Jesus is strong enough to protect him? Where's HER faith? Why is she trying to instill a Spirit of Fear in the child? Why isn't she instead praying a "hedge of protection" around the child, trying to keep all the demons away?

Why in the world does she think a 12 year old autistic child is ready to be fighting demons on his own? Oh, and what Scripture is she using for that decision?

My point is that this woman who proclaims to be a Christian is not acting like one in regards to her son. I went through a time when I believed demons were out to get me, and even I wouldn't have told someone I loved that I knew had problems with fear.

Note: This is not advice. This is what I would want to do in the situation. I don't know that it wouldn't make things worse. I just wanted to offer the perspective that even someone who does believe in demons shouldn't be doing this.


Amen. Tho if it were advice, it wouldn't be bad. Thing is- if one DOES believe in the Biblical account of Jesus, his teachings & activities, then there's some mental gymnastics one has to do to discount the reality of demons, but then again, the whole point is that we need not fear them, that Jesus has power over them & shares that power with we who trust him.

[Johanna]

I personally would be using the Christian stuff not at the kid, but at the mom. Why does the kid need to be worried about demons? Doesn't she believe that Jesus is strong enough to protect him? Where's HER faith? Why is she trying to instill a Spirit of Fear in the child? Why isn't she instead praying a "hedge of protection" around the child, trying to keep all the demons away?

Why in the world does she think a 12 year old autistic child is ready to be fighting demons on his own? Oh, and what Scripture is she using for that decision?

My point is that this woman who proclaims to be a Christian is not acting like one in regards to her son. I went through a time when I believed demons were out to get me, and even I wouldn't have told someone I loved that I knew had problems with fear.

Note: This is not advice. This is what I would want to do in the situation. I don't know that it wouldn't make things worse. I just wanted to offer the perspective that even someone who does believe in demons shouldn't be doing this.
Ladies and gentlemen, the threadwinning post.

[The Great Sun Jester]

I have no problems with ghosts as either dead people or animals. I have no problem with the idea of nature spirits in the form of small capricious pranksters. I have seen some whacked things happen over the years. I do have a problem with the idea that there are fallen angels [I don't actually believe in the angels/demons form of Christianity. If you want my beliefs without discussion, I believe there probably was a rabbi that we base Jesus on. He may or may have not given all the speeches attributed to him. He may or may not have been executed. A whole industry has grown up around his apparent teachings, with one main interpreter winging it after never having actually met him. I have no problem with the golden rule version of teachings but I think the churches themselves are very wrong about many things.]Just a little nitpick:

Devils are fallen angels--as powerful as regular angels, of divine nature and "evil" only inasmuch as they don't see eye to eye with their creator. Their beef with us is akin to vandalizing the efforts of God--it's nothing personal against us, they just mess with us to thumb their noses at God.

Demons are the spirits of giants--the offspring between devils and humans. Because their origin is not in the spiritual realm (heaven) their spirits can not enter it and are instead destined to roam the earth. Persecuted in life by humans as freaks and resource liabilities, they became embittered against us and their spirits bear true malice toward us. Absent anything better to do, they make us as miserable as possible.

--Book of Enoch

[Kimballkid]

Wait, what's this with the sharpened crucifix? My mother told me if I was ever threatened by Dracula to make the sign of the cross with my fingers. It worked. I dreamed terrorists, werewolves, cops, mobsters, the CIA and whatever were coming to get me but I never had a problem with Dracula.

That depends, are a comely young lass with big bosoms spilling out of your too tight corset?

[The Great Sun Jester]

I bet she would agree that drug dealers, child rapists and murderers are either demons or controlled (hurt) by demons.You're so generous. Seems like the same Christians that go in for demonic possession, misguidance by devels, and whatnot are the same ones who'd kill the killers. In short, punish people for not being strong enough to recognize and vanquish a spritually superior opponent. Humans are so easy...they're like a tire fire: just takes a little spark to get them going and they'll see to their own undoing in short order.

[Furious_Marmot]

I don't get it. His mom says "Demons are real", without any corroboration. Telling him she didn't mean it is just going to allow her a chance to repeat her BS. Why don't you just tell him that she is incorrect? Not stupid, or a bad parent, or full of shit, or crazy (any of which may be true, but are not useful to bring up right now), but just incorrect about demons. Is there any reason why he should believe one of you over the other? Can you point to any time when she was wrong about something, however minor, and say this is an analogous situation?

[Kozmik]

Explain to your son that his nightmares are his subconscious trying to deal with unrecognized and unresolved anger issues.Great. Now his son is going to be scared of something called his "subconscious" instead of "demons". :rolleyes: Now the father will have to try to explain to the son that he cannot control his subconscious. More nightmares.

[aruvqan]

Just a little nitpick:

Devils are fallen angels--as powerful as regular angels, of divine nature and "evil" only inasmuch as they don't see eye to eye with their creator. Their beef with us is akin to vandalizing the efforts of God--it's nothing personal against us, they just mess with us to thumb their noses at God.

Demons are the spirits of giants--the offspring between devils and humans. Because their origin is not in the spiritual realm (heaven) their spirits can not enter it and are instead destined to roam the earth. Persecuted in life by humans as freaks and resource liabilities, they became embittered against us and their spirits bear true malice toward us. Absent anything better to do, they make us as miserable as possible.



--Book of Enoch
And that little nitpick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch)also depends on which variant of Christianity you have been brought up within. Since I don't happen to believe in them, I'll call them what I want to =)

[The Great Sun Jester]

Just about any hokey horror flick involving the supernatural/paranormal will have a line to the effect of:"...but nobody really believes that anymore.Scoff at your own peril, aruvqan!

:D

[Yeticus Rex]

More seriously, your son might try lucid dreaming: I found it reasonably effective in fighting nightmares when I was, um, 5 or 6. Of course I didn't know the term back then.

If something scary happens, ask yourself whether you are dreaming. If you are dreaming, then, well, it's in your head. So you can fight back. For example you can fly away. It's a dream. Now the dream will sometimes "Push back". Don't worry about it though, just keep flying. Or try something else. It's a dream: you can do that.

The key challenge is remembering to check whether you are dreaming or not.
I too was going to suggest this.....this really helps in breaking recurring nightmares. Before I went to sleep every night (I was about 7 or 8), I asked myself, "If x shows up in my dreams again, I will do y." You will eventually get y into your subconscious and your reaction to x will become y to defeat it....the more you defeat it, the less frequent x will show up in your dreams/nightmares. Make y fun....it doesn't have to be violent or brutal. Turn x into a football and have his favorite quarterback throw a 80 yard pass for a touchdown to his favorite receiver. Adding heroes into the dream helps as well.....he won't feel alone in the nightmare.

Actually, when I think of demons, I think of the tangible stuff that people fall to.....alcoholism, gambling, ex-wives that scare the crap out of kids, etc.

[Guinastasia]

Great. Now his son is going to be scared of something called his "subconscious" instead of "demons". :rolleyes: Now the father will have to try to explain to the son that he cannot control his subconscious. More nightmares.

And depending on how high functioning he is, an autistic kid might have a hard time dealing understanding that concept.

Depending on his mental age, does he have some sort of security blanket, or stuffed animal?

At LEAST try and convince Mom to say that he's protected from demons by Jesus or something. I was always tought that (or, something along those lines) in Catholic school.

[Shakes]

Just curious -- what is your son's "mental age"? You said he's autistic, but how highly functioning is he?


That's a hard call:

He's in 8th grade.

His math skills is around 1st or 2nd.

His reading, history and social studies is around 5th or 6th grade.

I'll split the difference and say his mental acuity is that of a 9 or 10yo.

[Guinastasia]

So then does he have a special stuffed animal or something like that? Or would he feel "babyish"?

[Shakes]

So then does he have a special stuffed animal or something like that? Or would he feel "babyish"?

Yep. He's had the same critters for a good 10 years now. :)

FWIW, it's been four nights with no reports of bad dreams.

I'm hoping he's growing out of this "nightmare phase".

Like I said earlier, I may have jumped the gun with my rant.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Like I said earlier, I may have jumped the gun with my rant.No way, dude. It's always a good thing to gripe about the ex.

[PandaBear77]

This is why I got so aggravated in my phone call. She knows about the nightmares as well as I do. I can't imagine she wouldn't make the connection that the thought of real demons out there might give him nightmares.


Just to play devil's advocate (see what I did there?) ... she may very well NOT have made the connection.

Suppose he was the one that asked her. "Hey mom ... is there such a thing as demons?" She can either lie, or tell the truth.

Now ... as a Christian who does indeed believe demons exist, my reply would have been something along the lines of "yes, I believe they exist, but they can't ever come near us because Jesus protects us, so it's nothing you need to worry about." Period, end of discussion. That's all he needs to know; there's no need to get into a big theological discussion with a kid that age, autistic or no.

I think when it comes to the deep spiritual questions, treat 'em like ya do sex questions -- give them info, if they ask for more, give them more info, if not, stop talking. This stuff is confusing enough for adults and I don't for one minute believe God wants little kids to go around being scared to death of stuff like that.

[Jragon]

and believing that no other religion has anything to offer is also something that's not universal in Christianity, and certainly something that's shared by most religions.

Look at me, defending Christianity in the Pit! WTF?

I'm not saying you're necessarily right or wrong, I don't really have enough data points either way, but I was under the impression that most non Islam/Christian/Jewish religions valued Syncretism, "Don't you see? Your buddhas are just aspects of these Hindu gods!" "Odin is really just Zeus." "I don't see any reason why there can't be buddha and kami!" Like I said, it's entirely possible that numerically the majority of religions really are exclusive, but I was under the impression that at least a good deal of modern religions were syncretic (with some cultures built around those religions even trying to assimilate Christianity into their religious world view and assert there is no conflict "all our gods are just angels/aspects of your god/whatever").

[Furious_Marmot]

Now ... as a Christian who does indeed believe demons exist, my reply would have been something along the lines of "yes, I believe they exist, but they can't ever come near us because Jesus protects us, so it's nothing you need to worry about."

I can't help but picture a dude with horns, etc. sitting next to you in the car, doing the "I'm not touching you!" crap that kids annoy their siblings with. Plus, Jesus driving while swinging one hand around behind him and threatening to pull over if demon guy doesn't cut it out right now.

On a more serious note, if demons can't come near you, how do you know they are there at all?

Does it normally work to tell kids that there are horrifying, soul-devouring monsters lurking just out of sight, but don't worry, because there is an invisible, intangible force field protecting us? How's he going to know the Jesus shield is working today, it's not like there's a "power on" light.

And if one accepts that the only thing protecting people from demons is Christ, then how is that supposed to make a kid feel better? If all of the non-believers are in danger of demonic possession or whatever, then believers are in danger of being killed by possessed non-Christians. Jesus sure as heck doesn't stop people from killing each other, possessed or not. This sounds like an excellent way to influence people to grow up wishing that members of their own religion were the only people in the world.

[digs]

Well, you could tell your son that there's this random guy on a messageboard that's praying for him (that is, if you really want to screw him up) ...

And probably shouldn't tell him that an asst. minister thinks his mom was a douche.
(Sorry, I call 'em like I didn't see 'em)

Seriously, I keep checking, hoping that he still hasn't had any nightmares, and that kids are still more resilient than we understand.

[devilsknew]

So, have you tried exorcizing the autism-demons?

That's what Jesus would've done.

Seriously, if this is the flavor of Christianity that your ex believes in then you should probably straight up warn him that perhaps she and others in their "congregation" and friend set believe him to be demonically possessed or afflicted as that was the common "diagnosis" given to autistic people by the religous establishment not so very long ago, and even today. Honestly, if she believes in demons, then there is probably some transference going on and she probably believes he is demon possessed or will be dealing with hosts of demons as an autistuc person. I think it would be best to combat this problem, not by making light of it, or minimizing it, and explaining it away, but giving his analytical mind the true rational history and facts of Religion, and especially Christianity's traditional dealings with autistic individuals via exorcism and the way that people of religion might truly see him. Give the kid a heads up rather than leaving him in the dark as to people's true intentions which he might already have trouble discerning, considering the type of environmrent he might be growing up in with your ex.

[Guinastasia]

Yes, but does his son have the mental capability of processing that? I wasn't even autistic, and that would have given me nightmares!

Kid logic isn't the same as adult logic.

[devilsknew]

Yes, but does his son have the mental capability of processing that? I wasn't even autistic, and that would have given me nightmares!

Kid logic isn't the same as adult logic.

The "Kid" is thirteen, if he's asking about demons then he's old enough. He's autistic, not an infant. Junior High logic is immature, but not stupid.

[devilsknew]

Give him a book about the history of autism, I'm sure there has to be some coverage of the traditional historical "treatment" of autistic individuals by religion. Give him the necessary guidance reading it and ask to discuss how he feels about certain topics that it brings up. Surely he is reading and learning history in school, there is also plenty of current material out there, as exorcism and the laying on of hands is still a common enough treatment for autism...

[WhyNot]

Yes, but does his son have the mental capability of processing that? I wasn't even autistic, and that would have given me nightmares!

Kid logic isn't the same as adult logic.

Autistic people are not universally impaired in their IQs - especially if tested with tests designed to minimize language, like Raven's Progressive Matrices, instead of the WISC. Even by conventional standards (ie WISC), a quarter of people with autism have normal or high IQ's.

Your questions in this thread about his "mental age" would be appropriate if he were developmentally delayed ("retarded"), but we've no indication that is the case.

Really interesting article in how the use of new technologies by people with autism is leading scientists and doctors to reevaluate old ideas about autism and IQ: http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazine/16-03/ff_autism?currentPage=all
From that article:
Last summer, the peer-reviewed journal Psychological Science published a study titled "The Level and Nature of Autistic Intelligence." The lead author was Michelle Dawson. The paper argues that autistic smarts have been underestimated because the tools for assessing intelligence depend on techniques ill-suited to autistics. The researchers administered two different intelligence tests to 51 children and adults diagnosed with autism and to 43 non-autistic children and adults.

The first test, known as the Wechsler Intelligence Scale, has helped solidify the notion of peaks of ability amid otherwise pervasive mental retardation among autistics. The other test is Raven's Progressive Matrices, which requires neither a race against the clock nor a proctor breathing down your neck. The Raven is considered as reliable as the Wechsler, but the Wechsler is far more commonly used. Perhaps that's because it requires less effort for the average test taker. Raven measures abstract reasoning — "effortful" operations like spotting patterns or solving geometric puzzles. In contrast, much of the Wechsler assesses crystallized skills like acquired vocabulary, making correct change, or knowing that milk goes in the fridge and cereal in the cupboard — learned information that most people intuit or recall almost automatically.

What the researchers found was that while non-autistic subjects scored just about the same — a little above average — on both tests, the autistic group scored much better on the Raven. Two individuals' scores swung from the mentally retarded range to the 94th percentile. More significantly, the subset of autistic children in the study scored roughly 30 percentile points higher on the Raven than they did on the more language-dependent Wechsler, pulling all but a couple of them out of the range for mental retardation.

A number of scientists shrugged off the results — of course autistics would do better on nonverbal tests. But Dawson and her coauthors saw something more. The "peaks of ability" on the Wechsler correlated strongly with the average scores on the Raven. The finding suggests the Wechsler scores give only a glimpse of the autistics' intelligence, whereas the Raven — the gold standard of fluid intelligence testing — reveals the true, or at least truer, level of general intelligence.

[Reepicheep]

Any nightmares so far?