Where do I go from Beethoven's symphonies?

[Wakinyan]

I've always listened to classical music, mostly as a change of pace from time to time, and then preferrably what I myself would regard as "easy listening" works like violin concertos by Mozart and Vivaldi and such with the occational drift into heavier Bach pieces when being in such a mood.

A year ago I dug out a few CDs I got from my brother some twenty years ago (!), and found fine Deutsche Grammophon recordings of Beethoven symphonies. They really grew on me and since then my collection of his symphonies is complete and I've listened to them over and over again, where the fifth, seventh and nineth have been favourites, while I find the first and fourth to get less playing time. I'm totally sold on his symphonies.

Now I'm ready to take the next step into the world of classical music with this as a starting point. But I'm unsure which composer to try next, and would like to find symphonies (or the like) which are quite close to Beethoven.

Could you recommend a composer for me to explore next with these regards in mind, and particular works by him to try first?

[Voyager]

Try Schubert especially the Ninth. Beethoven had a massive influence on composers in the middle 19th century, so sample them.
But there is only one Beethoven!

[kelly5078]

Brahms. Maybe Dvorak and Mahler, if you like their sound. Wagner, if you like opera.
Wagner comes closest to Beethoven in terms of always being able to throw something new at you.

[Thudlow Boink]

Try Schubert especially the Ninth. Beethoven had a massive influence on composers in the middle 19th century, so sample them.
But there is only one Beethoven!Agreed. No one else, as far as I know, has ever written music that sounds quite like Beethoven's. Still, there's a lot of stuff out there that's at least strongly influenced by him. You might try the symphones of...

Brahms—Brahms put off writing a symphony for the longest time, because he was intimidated by Beethoven and wasn't sure he could come up with something worthy, but he did eventually write four of them.

Dvorak—I hear echoes of the scherzo of Beethoven's 9th in his 9th ("New World") symphony.

Mahler—tried to write symphonies that were bigger and more ambitious than Beethoven's (and maybe even succeeded). Some of his symphonies followed Beethoven's lead of using vocalists, but my favorites (5 & 1) are all-instrumental.

Just about any of the prominent post-Beethoven symphonists (Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Shostakovich, Prokofiev...) have been at least a little influenced by LvB.

The other way to go would be to explore some of Beethoven's other, non-symphonic works. I recommend the concertos (violin & piano), the more famous piano sonatas, and the "Archduke" piano trio, for a start.

[I_Know_Nothing]

I'll throw in one more vote for Mahler as your next step. Also try Dvorak's "New World Symphony" and Mozart's "Eine kleine Nachtmusik."

[cjepson]

Definitely Brahms. His Symphony #1 is sometimes referred to as "Beethoven's Tenth."

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

Of Beethoven, the 5 Piano Concerti and the Violin Concerto reward the listener as much as the symphonies. I also love the solo piano sonatas, the string quartets and the piano trios. With all of them, as with the symphonies, you hear a progression from a promising young classical composer to a pioneering giant of the romantic style.

'Fidelio' and the 'Missa Solemnis' are outstanding works that I haven't seen anyone yet mention. I also highly recommend the song cycle 'An die ferne Geliebte'.

Other composers - I'll certainly second the Brahms and the Mahler recommendations. I'll also throw in a mention for the Berlioz 'Symphonie Fantastique' as being a developmental step from Beethoven.

[Quasimodem]

I like all these recommendations and would add Handel and Haydn. Are you sure you've heard all of Beethoven's works, though, because I haven't, and one of these days, I'm going to buy that entire box set.

Also, I believe a sketch of the Maestro's was recently discovered, and musicologists are currently examining it. This is very exciting to me. I believe it was Andre Previn who once said that there's something like 80 pages of sketches which no one has been able to decipher enough to make a coherent work, because Beethoven had this annoying habit of scratching over his notes with huge pen strokes which would obliterate something on another line.

Quasi

[The Second Stone]

Beethoven's piano concertos and violin concertos are a cool change of pace but along the same lines.

[Quasimodem]

I love threads about him. I've loved his works ever since my college Music Appreciation course and coul sit and converse/listen about him all day long.

So it doesn't surprise me, Wakinyan, that he's "grown" on you as well. :)

I was fortunate enough to get to visit one of his apartments in Vienna a couple of years ago, touched his piano and liked to have wet my pants. I read the Heiligenstadt
Testament every now and then and it never fails to make me choke up.

There's also a website I go to which is also a discussion board. You may find it interesting and it is here (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/).

Sorry for the hijack, Wakinyan, but I never miss a chance to get to talk/write about him. :)

Thanks

Quasi

[Hodge]

Beethoven, is probably my all-time favourite composer. I've been obsessively listening to his piano sonatas over the past year and I never seem to get tired of them. The Tempest, Farewell and Hammerklavier sonatas are personal favourites.

Another lesser-known piece I'd recommend would be the Triple Concerto for piano, violin and cello. Musicologists typically regard this as a lesser work, I guess because the thematic development isn't as sophisticated and many of his other works, but I find a lot to enjoy in it, regardless.

As for other composers, all of my recommendations have already been covered but I'd like to emphasize Schubert and Brahms.

Schubert was a huge LvB fanboy, was a pallbearer at LvB's funeral and asked to be buried next to him upon his death. His Ninth and the unfinished 8th are musts. I'm also slowly working my way through Wilhelm Kempff's recordings of the Complete Piano Sonatas, with the Sonata in A minor, D845 being a particular favourite.

Brahms is also amazing. He was a major perfectionist which is why he took so long to publish his first symphony. I think Robert Schumann gave him a bit of a complex when he crowned Brahms the successor to Beethoven. From then on, he was haunted by his need to live up to such a daunting legacy. Check out his 4 symphonies but also the violin and 2 piano concertos. Masterpieces, all of them. Also, don't forget his Hungarian Dances which are just good rollicking fun.

[Chefguy]

The sublime-ness that is Chopin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGRO05WcNDk).

[rowrrbazzle]

As already stated, nobody is quite like Beethoven. The piano concertos and the violin concerto are your next logical step. Also listen to his Romances for violin and orchestra: F major (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qslZVaz8MBE&feature=related), G major (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhEfIDHfSkA&feature=related).

After that, Schubert. I think Brahms resembles Beethoven less than Schubert does, but of course still worth listening to.

Then you get into the serious Romantics, like Mahler, Tchaikowsky, Dvorak. I'll recommend Rachmaninoff's piano concerto #2 (first movement) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_VCbnqbwwA).

[GreenElf]

As mentioned, Schubert, Brahms etc. and you might like Bruckner or Liszt.

[Pine Fresh Scent]

Thanks for opening this thread OP, I'm in the same boat as you. I'm listening to Beethoven piano trios right now but have a copy of The Pianist soundtrack on the way from Amazon. I'm really looking forwad to re-listening to the Chopin music from the movie.

I ended up on a Beethoven Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._14_(Beethoven)) the other day* and this remark from Beethoven caught my eye:

The adagio sostenuto has made a powerful impression on many listeners; for instance, Berlioz said of it that it "is one of those poems that human language does not know how to qualify"...The movement was very popular in Beethoven's day, to the point of exasperating the composer himself, who remarked to Czerny, "Surely I've written better things."

*I got to that page after watching the "Hundred Dollar Baby" episode of "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia", which uses the sonata in the credits.

[Wakinyan]

Thank you all very much. I'm taking notes here; I think I'll go for Brahms and Schubert first, and work my way down the list. Very much appreciated and I'm looking forward to explore your recommendations.
Sorry for the hijack, Wakinyan, but I never miss a chance to get to talk/write about him. :)
Not at all, the hijack is appreciated.

[Voyager]

Just about any of the prominent post-Beethoven symphonists (Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Shostakovich, Prokofiev...) have been at least a little influenced by LvB.

The other way to go would be to explore some of Beethoven's other, non-symphonic works. I recommend the concertos (violin & piano), the more famous piano sonatas, and the "Archduke" piano trio, for a start.

Tchaikovsky said that his fourth symphony was strongly influenced by Beethoven's Fifth.

I was going for one composer only. I agree about Mendelssohn. As for other Beethoven stuff, I'd recommend the late string quartets. They are not orchestral, but they are the same kind of game changing music as the symphonies.

[panache45]

Definitely Brahms. Symphonies, concertos, tons of other music.

[jsgoddess]

Dvořák. Take a big step, chronologically, then walk it back toward Beethoven. You'll get a better grasp of the changes if you don't go through them so gradually that you become like the proverbial frog in a pot.

Or, really, this is just a rationalization to promote my beloved Dvořák. :D

[K364]

Yes, Dvorak No 8 and No 9 are brilliant.

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

Two authors that may interest you - Eduard Hanslick was a hugely influential music critic of the late nineteenth century. He wrote 'On the Musically Beautiful (http://www.amazon.com/Musically-Beautiful-Contribution-Revision-Aesthics/dp/0872200140/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327849392&sr=8-1)' (another translation gives the title as 'On the Beautiful in Music'), which outlined the basis of his aesthetic; there is also a collection of his reviews 'Hanslick's Music Criticisms (http://www.amazon.com/Hanslicks-Music-Criticisms-Eduard-Hanslick/dp/0486257398/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1327849392&sr=8-5)' available.

Louis Spohr was a contemporary of Beethoven, and wrote a very thorough autobiography (http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/Louis-Spohrs-Autobiography-Tr-German-Louis-Spohr/9781145424975-item.html?ikwid=louis+spohr+autobiography&ikwsec=Home). It is most interesting to us today because it gives very good details about the day to day life of a touring composer/musician of that period, and because Spohr was highly respected in his lifetime, and virtually unknown now. Why? His music stretched no boundaries, offended no one and please many. Through the test of time, we have come to recognize what is great in Beethoven's music that may have mystified his contemporary audiences. Spohr seems bland and unimaginative now.

So, I don't know if I'd recommend buying these - they're out of print and fairly expensive. However, if your nearest university has a music library, they ought to have these and they're worth a perusal.

[Thudlow Boink]

So, I don't know if I'd recommend buying these - they're out of print and fairly expensive. However, if your nearest university has a music library, they ought to have these and they're worth a perusal.Or, you could read them online. Old, rare books like that, even if they're not at Project Gutenberg, can sometimes be found at the Internet Archive. I found The Beautiful in Music and a couple of editions of Spohr's autobiography (in ENglish translation):

http://www.archive.org/details/beautifulinmusi00cohegoog
http://www.archive.org/details/louisspohrsautob01spoh
http://www.archive.org/details/louisspohrsauto00spohgoog

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

Interesting - I hadn't considered looking online for them.

[CalMeacham]

If you like Beethoven's symphonies, listen to his Overtures

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Overtures-Ludwig-van/dp/B000001GAB/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1327882898&sr=1-6


You also might want to hear Beethoven's tenth Symphony:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-realized-completed-Beethovens/dp/B000RO6CJC/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1327882929&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-10-Beethoven/dp/B000003YPG/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1327882929&sr=1-2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._10_(Beethoven/Cooper)

[Walther Ego]

And then some Mendelssohn too.

[rowrrbazzle]

If you like Beethoven's symphonies, listen to his Overtures

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Overtures-Ludwig-van/dp/B000001GAB/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1327882898&sr=1-6Oh, yes!

Start here:

Egmont Overture (highly regarded performance) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONDQHSy7aEs
(really good sound) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsI0yTC7bic

Coriolan Overture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoultibNlus&feature=related

Leonore Overture No. 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56fnRnDQMT8

[dropzone]

You've done Beethoven, Bach, and Brahms, the Three Bs? Then just hop on in. Truly, it's all good. You have centuries of winnowing to toss out the crap.

[Quasimodem]

Thanks from me too, Cal! Never thought about those!

Q

[II Gyan II]

No one's mentioned Sibelius? Get a hold of his Violin Concerto and symphonies 2 & 5 among others.

[brocks]

Amazed that Mozart hasn't been mentioned more. If you like Beethoven's symphonies, you'll like Mozart's later symphonies. His last, the "Jupiter," is especially good.

And I agree with just about all the other recommendations, except Mahler. I would rather watch paint dry than listen to a Mahler symphony.

[Labor]

All the advice provided in this thread is good.

I'd like to provide some additional thoughts.

As mentioned above Brahm's 1st has often been called Beethoven's 10th. However, I find Brahm's music to be so very well constructed that it is difficult to understand. I find his music to be impossible unless I'm playing it; when I'm in the midst of it all the world makes sense, when just listening nothing seems to get the light to turn on. So, if you are a very intellectual and discerning listener Brahms may be the next step.

I think that Dvorak writes better tunes than Beethoven, not as much inventiveness but quite high quality. I also think Dvorak's 8th is so terrific it defies words. "To the New World" is good, but the 8th is better. All the grandeur of Mahler but without the pretense, and it only takes 1/2 the time!

Mahler's 5th starts with the same motive as Beethoven's 5th. It's terrifically interesting to see what difference a few decades makes.

If you like the singing in Beethoven's symphonies (Freude!), I think the next logical step is Mahler's 4th. That soprano singing about heaven is a wonderful thing. I've heard great things about Mahler's 2nd and 8th however, they last so long, I don't have the time for it.

If you want to listen to a composer that can spin out a theme as long as Beethoven give a try listening to Bruckner. Bruckner can repeat things more times than seems possible. His orchestration is fantastic, and the 3rd movements of any Bruckner symphony is going to be a treat, muscular strength in three beats to a bar!

When big gets to be too much give a try to Mozart and Haydn. These guys are the essence of refinement and the ability to play by the rules. Somethimes it can get a bit boring.

[Wakinyan]

You guys have made this into an outstanding thread, thanks everyone who contributed with views and recommendations!

[Thudlow Boink]

You guys have made this into an outstanding thread, thanks everyone who contributed with views and recommendations!Did you see the concurrent thread: Listening to Beethoven, his true genius is in his chamber and solo music. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=640210)?

[jsgoddess]

When big gets to be too much give a try to Mozart and Haydn. These guys are the essence of refinement and the ability to play by the rules. Somethimes it can get a bit boring.

Yes, Mozart is very refined and delicate compared with Beethoven's robustness. I tend to miss that aggression when I listed to too much Mozart, though his melodies are truly lovely.

[Quasimodem]

Yup. We Dopers are really a sophisticated bunch! :)

Q

[NAF1138]

I want to second the Concerti, but I am a sucker for a Concerto, piano in particular. It mixes the best of solo work and big orchestral work, plus I love piano music something crazy and Beethoven did stunning things with the piano. Speaking of, check out his Piano Sonatas too.

Also, I am currently working my way though Great Courses: The Symphonies of Beethoven (http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=730) lectures by Robert Greenburg that I got from my library. It has helped me appreciate them on a whole different level. Some of the lectures get a bit bogged down but, for example, Greenburg made me appreciate the 4th in a way I never had before (still don't care for the 2nd though). I recommend any of the Greenburg lectures on classical music if your local library has them. I would also recommend How to Listen to and Understand Great Music. (http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=700)

[Voyager]

Also, I am currently working my way though Great Courses: The Symphonies of Beethoven (http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=730) lectures by Robert Greenburg that I got from my library. It has helped me appreciate them on a whole different level. Some of the lectures get a bit bogged down but, for example, Greenburg made me appreciate the 4th in a way I never had before (still don't care for the 2nd though). I recommend any of the Greenburg lectures on classical music if your local library has them. I would also recommend How to Listen to and Understand Great Music. (http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=700)

I am most of the way through his course on the 30 Greatest Orchestral Works of All time, and I heartily concur. I've tried some other classes which I didn't like. This one is fantastic. As for Beethoven, he is the only composer to get 3 lectures - the 3rd, the 9th, and the fourth piano conserto. Greenburg is a composer, and that experience is really helpful in his explaining the structure of the pieces.

I will look for the Beethoven series you mentioned. Thanks!

[Thudlow Boink]

If you like the singing in Beethoven's symphonies (Freude!)Actually, if you like the singing in Beethoven's 9th, look for his Choral Fantasy. It starts out as a solo piano work and ends up as a rousing choral/orchestral piece.

[Quasimodem]

NAF1138,

Thanks for the recommendation! I am always looking for new (to me) interpretations of Beethoven's work.

By the way it's Greenberg (e at the end). I'm currently looking for this, but looks like I'm SOL. It isn't in our PINES library catalog and when I called the library at my alma mater, the University of West Georgia, I was told that even though I am an alumnus, I wouldn't be able to check it out anyway since the GILL system for colleges and universities is for currently registered students only.

I found the lectures available as an audio download for $250.00. On DVD , $520.00.

Way out of my league, but I would appreciate a review once you get done, if that's okay?

Thanks

Quasi

[Thudlow Boink]

I found the lectures available as an audio download for $250.00. On DVD , $520.00.

Way out of my leagueUnless you've got money to burn, never, ever pay full price for a course from The Teaching Company. They frequently put them on sale at a substantial discount.

(You can also sometimes find cheaper used copies on Amazon, ebay, etc., if your library doesn't have them.)

[NAF1138]

Sheesh, I had the lecture packet on the desk next to me, I should have checked the spelling. Anyway, if you want to buy them you can usually find the cheap on eBay or wait until they go on sale. I think over the holidays the How to Listen to...series was on sale for something like 70% off. They all eventually go on crazy sale like that.

[Quasimodem]

Unless you've got money to burn, never, ever pay full price for a course from The Teaching Company. They frequently put them on sale at a substantial discount.

(You can also sometimes find cheaper used copies on Amazon, ebay, etc., if your library doesn't have them.)

Thank you, sir! Amazon has a whole section dedicated to the lectures in several different formats and price ranges.

I'm thinking of calling the Fine Arts Dept. at UWG and asking if they have the set (there are 80???!!!) and let me come over there and watch them when they aren't in use. As popular as they seem to be, I'd be surprised if the Department doesn't have them.

Also NAF1138, I didn't mean to come off sounding so critical about the spelling, sorry!

Quasi

[NAF1138]

NAF1138, I didn't mean to come off sounding so critical about the spelling, sorry!

Quasi
Oh, no worries. I can't spell for beans, so my reaction was more of an eye roll at myself for not checking when I know I mess those things up and all I would have had to do was turn my head to the right.

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

Yes, Mozart is very refined and delicate compared with Beethoven's robustness. I tend to miss that aggression when I listed to too much Mozart, though his melodies are truly lovely.

There are a number of Mozart works that are notable for their influence on Beethoven. The operas 'Don Giovanni' and 'The Magic Flute' were luminescent masterpieces, in Beethoven's estimation.

I really only discovered the Mozart piano sonatas this past year. What crystalline wonders they are, though. I would say that whatever Mozart may lack in terms of sheer power when compared to Beethoven, the grace and dexterity of his musical ideas more than makes up for them. Mozart is to Beethoven as Odysseus is to Achilles. By all means, listen to them both and see if you agree with me or not.

[NAF1138]

I was just thinking of recommending Mozart's Overtures. It seems to me that a lot of the "drama" in Beethoven's symphonies grows out of his appreciation for Opera of the era. Of course Fidelio is pretty great in that regard too, but nothing comes close to Mozart (for me) when you are talking Opera music. Opera, at least overtures, sort of generally might be something the OP would want to look into.