Downton Abbey, Christmas Special (U.S. premiere Feb. 19, 2012) - Spoilers embargoed

[Acsenray]

This thread is for discussion of the "Christmas Day Special" episode, which was originally broadcast in Britain in December 2011. The U.S. premiere is scheduled for Feb. 19, 2012.

This is a SPOILERS EMBARGOED thread. That means that spoilers may be discussed openly after the first complete broadcast of this episode in the United States. The embargo will EXPIRE on Sunday, Feb. 19, 2012, at 11 p.m. Eastern Time. After that time, no information revealed during the course of this episode is a spoiler and such information should not be spoiler-boxed. That also means that events in the episode should not be commented on in a "running commentary" style during the initial airing of the episode. Wait until the end of the episode to comment.

For the purposes of this thread, a spoiler is any information that is revealed in the court of the episode that might reveal anything about the plot, dialogue, events, or characters involved in the episode.

Spoilers include any events or dialogue revealed in advertisements or promotional materials, such as previews, news releases, or PROMOS. Spoilers are also information revealed in INTERVIEWS with individuals associated with the production of the show. They also include information about CASTING that might reveal that certain characters will or will not appear or that a new character will appear. Unverified RUMORS are spoilers.

Spoiler boxes should be used only for spoilers, that is, information about the episode. Do not use spoiler boxes for punchlines to jokes, for speculation, for curse words, or any non-spoiler material.

SPECULATION is not a spoiler. Feel free to speculate about what you think might happen, so long as it is not based on any actual knowledge about the episode. HISTORIC FACTS, such as the date of the armistice that ended the First World War, are not spoilers.

[Acsenray]

:smack: Of course I screwed up the spoiler dates in the OP! I've asked a mod to correct them, but until then, read all the dates as Feb. 19, even if they say Feb. 16 or Feb. 18.

[Toucanna]

Thanks for your comprehensive detailing of this thread's Spoiler Rules. I have a tiny clarification, though. The episode we will be discussing is the one scheduled to premiere on PBS in the USA. It may have already "premiered" in the USA on pay-services such as Netflix.

I look forward to this thread's developments. See you Sunday, 11 pm, EST!

[Savannah]

No spoilers, but we very much enjoyed watching it!

Can't wait to read everyone else's thoughts on it. Things happened!

[Eve]

A Downton Abbey Christmas Special? Will the Osmonds be there, and Andy Williams?

Lady Violet: "Carson, I hear someone at the door. Please do see who it is."
Carson: "It's Charo, mu'm, and she has brought the dazzling Del Rubio Triplets with her."
Charo: "Coochie-coochie!"

[Acsenray]

Charo!

I don't know how many of us are aware of the differences in American and British connotation of the term "Christmas special."

In America, a Christmas special is a variety show—song, dance, comedy sketches, nostalgia—hosted by a second or third tier celebrity, like Andy Williams or Perry Como, which features "drop-in" appearances by other celebrities. Their heydays were in the 1960s and 1970s and are considered a bit old-fashioned. That's why we associate them with '70s celebrities like Charo.

In Britain, a Christmas special is an extra or bonus episode tacked on between seasons (series) of a regular television show. Often some major plot development or tying up of loose ends takes place during the Christmas special. For example, it was during the Yes, Minister, Christmas special that Jim Hacker became the prime minister. And it was during The Office Christmas special that Tim and Dawn finally got together. While American shows often feature a Christmas-themed episode during the course of a regular season, it's not really considered a "special" episode.

[Bridget Burke]

From Caitlin Moran's summary of the year's TV (behind the Times pay wall)--written just before Christmas....

And sweet, stupid Downton Abbey, of course, remained in a class of its own. Knocking off the entire First World War in four episodes, Downton continued its voyage into the early years of the 20th century in its relentlessly barmy manner: handsome Matthew Crawley’s pelvic dysfunction (“I think I felt a ... tingle”); the illegitimate baby in the pantry; Bates’s dream of setting up the Bates Motel (really?). Downton is currently so off its chanks that all bets are off for what will happen in the Christmas Day episode. The Muppets could guest star. The Death Star could guest star. In the most brilliant way, Downton Abbey just does not give a shit. It’s like a mad old duchess dancing on the edge of the ha-ha in a fur coat, laughing.

[Toucanna]

Just under three hours to go! Eeeee!

Will Matthew & Mary get together--at last? Will Bates have a date with the hangman? Will Branson stop haranguing Sybil about politics and class warfare long enough to say "I do"? Should we be doubting Thomas' conversion? (See what I did there?) Did Mrs. Patmore ever make that wedding cake? Will Moseley finally land that job as Lord Grantham's valet? If he does, who will dress Matthew, now that he's given his middle class upbringing the heave-ho and fully embraced the lifestyle of the rich and titled? Will this episode be set in Christmas 1920, or will it jump forward two, three or even four years? And why isn't the Dowager Countess dead yet?

[Eve]

"The Black Bottom?" Not in 1920, Lord Fellows. Really, didn't they have any historians looking at these scripts?

[Toucanna]

Will Matthew & Mary get together--at last?
Yup! Will they run off to the USA?
Will Bates have a date with the hangman?
Maaaaybe
Will Branson stop haranguing Sybil about politics and class warfare long enough to say "I do"?
Yup, and long enough to put a bun in the oven.
Should we be doubting Thomas' conversion?
Oh, my, of course!
Did Mrs. Patmore ever make that wedding cake?
Maybe it was Daisy.
Will Moseley finally land that job as Lord Grantham's valet?
Of course not!
Will this episode be set in Christmas 1920...?
Nope--the action takes place from Christmas 1919 to New Year's Day 1920. Which means all my date calculations in the other thread are off by a year.
And why isn't the Dowager Countess dead yet?
Ah, who knows what schemes Fellowes has in store for Violet?

[Toucanna]

"The Black Bottom?" Not in 1920, Lord Fellows. Really, didn't they have any historians looking at these scripts?
To top that, the year had only just turned to 1920. Most of the action was set in the last week of December of 1919. :(

[Sampiro]

Still watching the episode online, but have to mention that I h-a-t-e it when writers quote a foreign language without translation. For anybody wondering, what Lady Violet says about the Mr. Hepworth she knew in the late 1860s translates as "But where are the snows of yesteryear?", a line from a poem by Francois Villon.

[Sampiro]

"The Black Bottom?" Not in 1920, Lord Fellows. Really, didn't they have any historians looking at these scripts?

You and your insecurities about your social class.

[Toucanna]

You and your insecurities about your social class.
That's just what someone like you and your people would say about those of us who work for our bread. Can't you see how wrong and outdated the whole system is and how none of it matters anymore?

[Toucanna]

{snip} "But where are the snows of yesteryear?", a line from a poem by François Villon.
I recognized the line, but wondered why she quoted it. According to the Wikipedia entry on Villon, "During the television series Downton Abbey's Christmas Special, the Dowager countess uses the line "Mais, où sont les neiges d'antan", as to refer to a thief, or villon if you may, she met in the late '60s." O-o-o-o-kay, makes sense to me, I guess.

[Sampiro]

I recognized the line, but wondered why she quoted it. According to the Wikipedia entry on Villon, "During the television series Downton Abbey's Christmas Special, the Dowager countess uses the line "Mais, où sont les neiges d'antan", as to refer to a thief, or villon if you may, she met in the late '60s." O-o-o-o-kay, makes sense to me, I guess.

I think she meant it as she had a fling with him. She did tell his son that he used to chase her around.

I'd assumed Grandma Shirley MacLaine was going to visit Downton but apparently the show will be following Mary to visit her. I wonder if they'll film those scenes in the U.S., or, ideally, at a Newport mansion. (Hopefully not The Breakers or Marble House as those are too well known and associated with the Vanderbilts.)

I thought Sir Richard was a jerk, of course, but Mary was wrong to string him along for- how long was it? Three years at least. I doubt that even in 1920 a years old scandal, one about a relatively minor member of the social register and one for which there's no proof, would last that long in the press or even garner much press; the only really interesting thing is the man dying. Her worst bet would be if somebody made a really good joke about her to coincide with Kemal Ataturk's rise (calling her 'Female Shag-a-turk' or some variant) but even then, it'll pass. The Bates story would be the worse probably.

I hope in the coming season Daisy decides to move in with her new Dad. And perhaps they move to Australia together. She adds nothing save an annoying stupid insipid whine to the show. I'd also like to see Thomas get a love interest (or perhaps follow him to town to see how gay men in the villages of the 1920s discreetly found their jollies).

[AK84]

Apparently the Court of Criminal Appeal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_Criminal_Appeal#England_and_Wales) in 1920 did not have jurisdiction over Yorkshire Courts, which incidentally could try cases which had occured in London and also they could permit hearsay evidence.

[twickster]

I'd assumed Grandma Shirley MacLaine was going to visit Downton but apparently the show will be following Mary to visit her. I wonder if they'll film those scenes in the U.S., or, ideally, at a Newport mansion.

They did mention she has houses in NY and Newport.



I thought Sir Richard was a jerk, of course, but Mary was wrong to string him along for- how long was it? Three years at least. I doubt that even in 1920 a years old scandal, one about a relatively minor member of the social register and one for which there's no proof, would last that long in the press or even garner much press; the only really interesting thing is the man dying.

Except she's not a virgin. I think that truly would have an effect on her marriagability, even in 1920, in her social class.

[Eve]

I'd assumed Grandma Shirley MacLaine was going to visit Downton but apparently the show will be following Mary to visit her. I wonder if they'll film those scenes in the U.S., or, ideally, at a Newport mansion.
Maybe Grannie Shirley lives in a Park Avenue apartment with her best pal, Vera Charles, and their secretary, Agnes Gooch! Think of all the musical numbers.

[Kimstu]

I'd also like to see Thomas get a love interest (or perhaps follow him to town to see how gay men in the villages of the 1920s discreetly found their jollies).
IIRC, the early episodes of Season 1 established that Thomas had an aristocratic ex-lover whom he unsuccessfully attempted to blackmail, and also that he made a pass at the dishy Mr. Panuk under the mistaken assumption that the latter was interested in him.

So I think it's fairly clear that Thomas doesn't put out unless he sees some potential advantage in it. My personal impression is that he's situationally bisexual enough to shag anything, male or female, if it's sufficiently worth his while from a career advancement standpoint. Handsome upper-class young men just happen to be what he personally prefers.

For Thomas' own happiness, of course, I'd love to see him genuinely enamored of a nice guy who becomes more important to him than his self-serving little plots. But I don't think that would really be in character. Nor do I think it likely that Thomas would risk a casual encounter with someone of his own class that might end up being used against him. A pretty cold calculating git, our Thomas.

[freckafree]

But is she not a virgin? (And if this has been worked through in other D.A. threads, I apologize.) Pamouk tells Mary there are things they can do that won't endanger her virginity. And if you think about the position in which Pamouk's body is found, it is one in which, if Pamouk had been performing oral sex on her when he died, she could have extricated herself without disturbing the body, as opposed to if he had been on top of her.

Or does the technicality of an intact hymen even matter as far as her "virginity" goes?

[Bob Ducca]

Regarding The Black Bottom, according to wiki: "The Original Black Bottom Dance" was printed in 1919. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Bottom_(dance))

How is this an inaccuracy?

[Acsenray]

But is she not a virgin? (And if this has been worked through in other D.A. threads, I apologize.) Pamouk tells Mary there are things they can do that won't endanger her virginity. And if you think about the position in which Pamouk's body is found, it is one in which, if Pamouk had been performing oral sex on her when he died, she could have extricated herself without disturbing the body, as opposed to if he had been on top of her.

Or does the technicality of an intact hymen even matter as far as her "virginity" goes?

They have never been explicit about what sexual acts they engaged in, but I think it's pretty clear they engaged in penile-vaginal intercourse, and from what Mary said, Pamuk had a heart attack when he climaxed. That wouldn't happen if he were performing oral sex on her.

[Bridget Burke]

That same article says the Black Bottom was a craze of the 1920's.

The dance was featured in the Harlem show Dinah in 1924, and then "The Scandals of 1926," whereupon it became a national craze.

Nobody at Downton Abbey is that hip about American dances.....

[MsJinx]

Mr. Bates' trial: since Anna is not compelled to testify (being his wife), if it weren't for the eavesdropping, the prosecution would not have so much damaging testimony. I don't recall anyone overhearing Mr. Bates and Lord G up in his room while dressing, though. In prompting Lord G, the prosecution referred to something that Bates had volunteered about their conversation. Mr. Bates is just too honest for his own good.

[Chefguy]

Sir Richard: It's unlikely you will see me again!

Granny: Do you promise?

:D

[Bob Ducca]

How did the prosecution know to call O'Brien and Hughes to ask about what they heard while eavesdropping? Or were they just hoping they'd heard something? Seemed like they knew what they knew from the way they were questioned.

[AK84]

How did the prosecution know to call O'Brien and Hughes to ask about what they heard while eavesdropping? Or were they just hoping they'd heard something? Seemed like they knew what they knew from the way they were questioned.

These days potential witnesses have to submit a witness statement (which is then distributed to the other side as well) which states what they will say. I don't know if this was the case in 1919 (the current procedures are based upon the Criminal Procedure and Investigation Act 1996, which renacts previous law, but dating from when, I have no idea).

Why did they ask the Home Secretary for clemency rather than file leave to appeal before the Court of Criminal Appeal, I'll never know. Oh hell, even Writ of Certiorari to the Queens errrr Kings Bench Division. Clemency is the last throw of the dice before the hangman, not the first thing you do after a trial. All in all, poor Bates, his legal team sucked.

[MsJinx]

One odd thing about Mrs. Hughes' testimony was the prosecution asking if Mr. Bates threatened or was going to hit Vera. I don't recall him saying he was going to, just Vera saying go ahead, and I'll get pictures made. Mrs. Hughes could not see them, just hear them, so there should have been some objection that she did not know if he was poised to strike her or not.

[Mr Downtown]

"Mais, où sont les neiges d'antan" is commonly said when reminiscing about a dashing suitor of yesteryear.

[Eve]

Regarding The Black Bottom, according to wiki: "The Original Black Bottom Dance" was printed in 1919. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Bottom_(dance))

How is this an inaccuracy?
Yeah, right, who wrote that Wikipedia entry, Julian Fellowes? I did a lot of research on early 20th-century dances for a book, and no one was dancing the Black Bottom till 1923/24 at the earliest, certainly not Lady Violet.

[Eve]

I think it's pretty clear they engaged in penile-vaginal intercourse, and from what Mary said, Pamuk had a heart attack when he climaxed.
She is going to be very chagrined when she finds out that doesn't always happen. "Carson? We shan't be needing the funeral home, after all."

[alphaboi867]

...Or does the technicality of an intact hymen even matter as far as her "virginity" goes?

She had a man who was neither white or a Christian in her bed. As far as "polite society" in 1920 is concerned she's a whore.

[Sampiro]

Sir Richard: It's unlikely you will see me again!

Granny: Do you promise?

:D

Best punchline of the season. And not just for this show.


Yeah, right, who wrote that Wikipedia entry, Julian Fellowes? I did a lot of research on early 20th-century dances for a book, and no one was dancing the Black Bottom till 1923/24 at the earliest, certainly not Lady Violet.

Perhaps that's why Violet refused to dance it with him. "It is not proper to perform a dance until it is in existence and popularized."

[MLS]

I was reading some viewer comments on the Downton Abby website http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/downtonabbey/ earlier. Someone posed the question, if Bates didn't kill Vera, who did? Could she really have killed herself? Or did someone else other than Bates? O'Brian? Thomas?

[twickster]

I've been assuming she killed herself and framed Bates. Not that that makes any sense or anything.

[Sampiro]

The first series had an episode in which the Crawleys left Downton Abbey for their home in London for "The Season". Does anybody know what time of year and how long 'The Season' would have been?

[MsJinx]

She was a nasty piece of work. She may have had many people who wanted her dead. It's just up to the good guys to find him/her. I thought for sure Richard would mention it as one of his parting remarks, if he had engineered it as part of the plan to protect Mary, but he didn't.

[MsJinx]

Did anyone else wonder if there would be an unfortunate shooting accident during the New Year's Day hunt? When Sir Richard couldn't find his attendant, I wondered if it would be an opportunity for hims to attempt to load his gun and have it go off....in Matthew's direction. Or even anonymously shoot him. Forensics weren't so adept at matching bullets to weapons back then.

[TreacherousCretin]

I'm confused by the discussions about Mary "stringing along" Sir Richard. It looked to me as if he was practically holding her hostage. "Marry me or I'll ruin you..", "Don't cross me. EVER.", and so on.

[TreacherousCretin]

Did anyone else wonder if there would be an unfortunate shooting accident during the New Year's Day hunt? When Sir Richard couldn't find his attendant, I wondered if it would be an opportunity for hims to attempt to load his gun and have it go off....in Matthew's direction. Or even anonymously shoot him. Forensics weren't so adept at matching bullets to weapons back then.

I thought so for a moment, but then realized it was going to be Matthew murdering Sir Rick. Almost gave me whiplash when nobody slew anyone.

.

[FeAudrey]

The first series had an episode in which the Crawleys left Downton Abbey for their home in London for "The Season". Does anybody know what time of year and how long 'The Season' would have been?

Starting in the spring, for about three months -- originally (from maybe mid-18th century) centered about Parliament's sittings. Court presentations of debutantes and newly-married women were added to give the ladies something to do.

As the 19th century progressed, a large array of ceremonial, sporting, cultural, and social occasions accreted onto the calendar, plus private teas, dinners, balls, etc, associated with the events.

By Downton Abbey's time, it would have stretched from the opening of the Royal Academy (of Art)'s summer exhibition (beginning of May) to the Cowes yacht races (beginning of August), and been followed by events in Dublin and Scotland, taking the participants up to September.

There's an extensive literature, including by Julian Fellowes ...

[FeAudrey]

(missed the edit window)

And the girls should have been working it like the rent was due, because that was where you found suitable husbands.

Upper-class husbands, that is. While some events (horse races, for instance) were open to all, THE Season was a sort of Olympics of aristocratic activities.

Many of the events are still on the calendar today, although the general frenziedness had dropped off considerably since court presentations ended in 1958.

[MsJinx]

Sir Richard complained about Mary not setting a wedding date. I think that's what he meant about Mary stringing him along.

[Simplicio]

I was reading some viewer comments on the Downton Abby website http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/downtonabbey/ earlier. Someone posed the question, if Bates didn't kill Vera, who did? Could she really have killed herself? Or did someone else other than Bates? O'Brian? Thomas?

I'm hoping now that everyones "will they, won't they" romantic plots seemed to have resolved, part of the focus of next season will be "who killed Vera Bates" and we can see our heroes investigate the murder/suicide. All the dialogue about the next step being to prove Bates innocent seems to point in that direction, and I can't imagine the show will just leave him in prison.

I'm guessing Sir Richard had her done in because she decided to renege on her contract. But she seems like someone that would have a pretty long list of enemies, so maybe its someone we haven't met yet.

[Bob Ducca]

I'm hoping Daisy gets a sous chef job in London. Or maybe she'll end up as the head cook at Downton.

[Eve]

I'm hoping now that everyones "will they, won't they" romantic plots seemed to have resolved, part of the focus of next season will be "who killed Vera Bates" and we can see our heroes investigate the murder/suicide.
I dunno: they dropped the "Crispy Crawley: Is He Is Or Is He Ain't?" subplot quickly enough. We may never find out who killed Vera. Perhaps she ate some of Thomas' black-market food.

[MsJinx]

Any guesses about the living arrangements next season? After Mary and Matthew are married (hopefully sooner rather than later to avoid any more developments), will they live in the house he now shares with his mother, until Lord G dies? What happens to the rest of the family when that happens? Is it up to Matthew whether the any unwed sisters (I'm looking at Edith here) can continue to live there, perhaps helping with future children? Violet could be gone by then - would Cora then move to her house? Or is it a nicer house and that is where Isobel would live - it was asked before and I forgot the answer: when Matthew is earl, will she have a title?

[StuffLikeThatThere]

Sir Richard: It's unlikely you will see me again!

Granny: Do you promise?

:D

That was my very favorite bit. Maybe even from any Downton episode. Just thinking about it still makes me laugh. Please don't anyone talk about the Dowager Countess dying off. She's fantastic.

[Simplicio]

I dunno: they dropped the "Crispy Crawley: Is He Is Or Is He Ain't?" subplot quickly enough. We may never find out who killed Vera. Perhaps she ate some of Thomas' black-market food.

I think they made it pretty clear Crispy wasn't the real deal. He asks Edith what they'll do if they find out he was part of the same regiment Crawley's friend was in. That seemed to indicate pretty heavily that that is what they would in fact find out if they inquired, and thus that he was a fake.

Plus Bates is stuck in prison until they prove him innocent. Unless they're going to drop the character or intend to give the audience an extended look at the London prison system in the twenties, presumably the next season will have them prove Vera was killed by someone else.

[Sampiro]

Starting in the spring, for about three months -- originally (from maybe mid-18th century) centered about Parliament's sittings. Court presentations of debutantes and newly-married women were added to give the ladies something to do.

I wonder which servants would have accompanied them. Carson apparently did not in the series, while O'Brien and Anna probably IIRC did. I wonder if Mrs. Hughes and Mrs. Patmore and the footman would have stayed behind.

There's an extensive literature, including by Julian Fellowes ...

Not to nitpick, but I believe the form of address is His Grace Lord Admiral Julian Fellowes, Archbishop of North Isabella Street, 19th Baronet Wiggles.

[Eve]

Not to nitpick, but I believe the form of address is His Grace Lord Admiral Julian Fellowes, Archbishop of North Isabella Street, 19th Baronet Wiggles.
* ha! *

Did anyone else find the Servants' Ball hugely embarrassing and condescending? It was also a plot point in a Duchess of Duke Street episode, in which some of the servants grumbled about "aping their betters" and how both the upstairs and downstairs found it uncomfortable. I guess it was a regular feature of most of the large houses (and I wonder how many housemaids had to take leave several months later?).

[PunditLisa]

Well, considering I still see Thomas as a suspect in the Mr. Pamouk death (he did have motive and opportunity to poison him) I'm putting 6 DoperPounds on Thomas killing Mrs. Bates, too. After all, who had the most to gain if Bates was out of the picture? Thomas, the Lord's new valet.

[Rhiannon8404]

Any guesses about the living arrangements next season? After Mary and Matthew are married (hopefully sooner rather than later to avoid any more developments), will they live in the house he now shares with his mother, until Lord G dies? What happens to the rest of the family when that happens? Is it up to Matthew whether the any unwed sisters (I'm looking at Edith here) can continue to live there, perhaps helping with future children? Violet could be gone by then - would Cora then move to her house? Or is it a nicer house and that is where Isobel would live - it was asked before and I forgot the answer: when Matthew is earl, will she have a title?

Isobel would not go live in the Dower House. She is not, nor ever will be the Dowager Countess. Once Robert dies, Cora becomes Dowager Countess. I imagine Isobel will stay in her current house, or move into the big house with her son when he becomes Earl.

I don't see Mary ever leaving the comforts and grandeur of Downton, so I guess Matthew would move in with her.

[MsJinx]

Is anyone else concerned about Carson? He has had some periods of illness and taken to his bed in both seasons. I hope it isn't a foreshadowing of something happening to him later.

It was kind of sweet when Mary explained the whole Turk mess to her father, and he said it wasn't the first secret/scandal in the family, something like that. I wonder if he was thinking of his near dalliance with the maid, or was that somewhat of a common thing between Master/Maid back then that it wouldn't have been a big deal? Or just a general allusion to other things that have happened, not a part of this story?

Now that Mary doesn't need to run away to America (although she and/or Matthew could still go for a visit), I wonder if Cora's mother will make her appearance at Downton? How else will she have scenes with Violet? She could be portrayed much younger than Violet, and still be a mother-in-law, as Cora may be quite a bit younger than her husband, who may have been the youngest in his family.

[LavenderBlue]

That was my very favorite bit. Maybe even from any Downton episode. Just thinking about it still makes me laugh. Please don't anyone talk about the Dowager Countess dying off. She's fantastic.

That was my second favorite comic bit of the episode. My first was the Dowager Countess's statement to Lord Grantham after speaking with Daisy.

"She was lighting the fire. And suffering."

I want to be Maggie Smith when I grow up. And then I want to mother poor, sweet Daisy. I hope they find another husband for her in the next season. The Christmas special was the best episode they've done yet. It almost makes up for some of the dumber plotlines like the Canadian twin and Saint Lavinia.

[alphaboi867]

Any guesses about the living arrangements next season?...Violet could be gone by then - would Cora then move to her house? Or is it a nicer house and that is where Isobel would live - it was asked before and I forgot the answer: when Matthew is earl, will she have a title?

Yes, Matthew & Mary would be living in Crawley House until her father dies and Matthew becomes the Earl of Grantham. I guess they'll either Isobel will live with them or she'll move into a flat in London to concentrate on her work with refugees.
Cora would move into the Dower House when her husband dies, not Isobel. This assumes Violet is dead as well.

I'm not sure what the protocol was when there were 2 (or more) dowagers alive at the same time, but I assume that Violet would get to keep the house since she's the senior dowager. Also until Violet dies Cora wouldn't get to be "The Dowager Countess of Grantham", she'd only be "Cora, Countess of Grantham" unill then. Crawley House would be available since Matthew's son & heir wouldn't be moving into until he married, but Isobel would probally keep living there. And no, Isobel does not get a title of any kind; she remains "Mrs Reginald Crawley".

I assume that if Edith is still unmarried when her father dies she'll just follow Cora to wherever she lives. I think Edith will get a husband in or by the 3rd series though. Sybil already has a husband & baby, but she married beneath her and that could (& will in TV dramaland) lead to a rocky marriage. Now that Matthew & Mary are getting married their relationship is going to need a new curveball; I'm guessing it's infertility. Edith will end up in a boring, socially accepted marriage with children.

Well, considering I still see Thomas as a suspect in the Mr. Pamouk death (he did have motive and opportunity to poison him) I'm putting 6 DoperPounds on Thomas killing Mrs. Bates, too. After all, who had the most to gain if Bates was out of the picture? Thomas, the Lord's new valet.

I really don't see Thomas actually killing somebody. He's not that evil, & in any event I dobt he'd have the stomach. Plus he seemed pretty shocked then he discovered Pamouk's body.

...Did anyone else find the Servants' Ball hugely embarrassing and condescending? It was also a plot point in a Duchess of Duke Street episode, in which some of the servants grumbled about "aping their betters" and how both the upstairs and downstairs found it uncomfortable. I guess it was a regular feature of most of the large houses (and I wonder how many housemaids had to take leave several months later?).

I can see how that would be really awkward for everyone involved. I always the the upstairs family was only supposed to make a perfunctory appearance at the begining then leave to let the servants enjoy themselves. And if you want to talk about condescending you should've seen the Servants' Ball on Upstairs, Downstairs that Sarah & Thomas crashed. It was a fancy dress (ie costume) party where rich people dressed up like servants (one older women was dress as a maid, but wearing jewels & a tiara) while mocking their accents. Sarah got high praise because she didn't a great "Common". Oddly there were real servants waiting on the guests too, and I'm not sure how the guests were supposed to tell them apart. :confused:

I wonder which servants would have accompanied them. Carson apparently did not in the series, while O'Brien and Anna probably IIRC did. I wonder if Mrs. Hughes and Mrs. Patmore and the footman would have stayed behind...

Mrs Patmore would've certainly gone with them. They would've done alot of entertaining in London; why would they leave their cook behind to cook for the skeleton staff they left at the estate. Mrs Hughes probally would've gone as well. It's actually odd that Carson didn't; usually all of the senior servants went. There wouldn't be anything for him to do at Downton without the family there.

[Kimstu]

Mrs Patmore would've certainly gone with them. They would've done alot of entertaining in London; why would they leave their cook behind to cook for the skeleton staff they left at the estate. Mrs Hughes probally would've gone as well. It's actually odd that Carson didn't; usually all of the senior servants went. There wouldn't be anything for him to do at Downton without the family there.

Fo' shizzle. How on earth could you run your house in town during the Season without your butler?

My only guess is that Carson was in fact in London with them for most of the Season but came back to Downton a few days early to get things shipshape before the family returned.

[Rhiannon8404]

Ooh, I forgot to mention my dream last night. I dreamt that Sybil had her baby and was coming to visit her parents. BUT...when she got there, she just had a bunch of Dachshund puppies with her instead of a human baby. Weird.

[TreacherousCretin]

I wonder if Cora's mother will make her appearance at Downton? How else will she have scenes with Violet? She could be portrayed much younger than Violet, and still be a mother-in-law, as Cora may be quite a bit younger than her husband, who may have been the youngest in his family.

Well, Shirley Maclaine is 7 months older than Maggie Smith.

[Sampiro]

My only guess is that Carson was in fact in London with them for most of the Season but came back to Downton a few days early to get things shipshape before the family returned.

That could be.

I wonder what type of staff their London house would have during the other nine months of the year. Somebody would have to be on hand to keep it from looking like Miss Havisham's crib and also to keep burglars out, plus his lordship and other members of the family probably made periodic journeys there for business or when staff members were being tried for murder and the like. I wonder if the year rounders would be just a caretaker or a service.

I would imagine that for the skeleton crew left behind at Downton the period of the family's absence would probably be one of the busiest times of the year as it was probably when they did things like waxing floors, really thorough window washing, painting, general repairs, etc., that would be difficult to do with the family in residence.


Did anyone else find the Servants' Ball hugely embarrassing and condescending?

It's interesting doing a comparison-contrast between the servants in WW1 era England and in the era of The Help. Both societies had such a rigid class structure. The southern U.S. based it largely on race instead of title, and a black chauffeur who tried to romance his employer's daughter would have been lucky to see the sunset, but in both societies it seemed generally accepted by many on both sides that your employers were just intrinsically from-birth your superiors and not just on the economic scale.

Re: Sir Richard's confusion that the servants not working on Christmas Eve and New Years Day, I thought that this was a fairly common tradition. In fact for some reason I even had it in my head that in some great houses the servants were treated as honored guests at a [catered] party in the dining room, a custom dating back to the Saturnalia. While Downton does part of this, I thought it was common enough that even a commoner like Sir Richard would have some notion of it. Does anybody else recall anything of a tradition like this?

[Katriona]

Well, considering I still see Thomas as a suspect in the Mr. Pamouk death (he did have motive and opportunity to poison him) I'm putting 6 DoperPounds on Thomas killing Mrs. Bates, too. After all, who had the most to gain if Bates was out of the picture? Thomas, the Lord's new valet.

I kept expecting to discover it was Anna.

[raindrop]

Mrs Patmore would've certainly gone with them. They would've done alot of entertaining in London; why would they leave their cook behind to cook for the skeleton staff they left at the estate. Mrs Hughes probally would've gone as well. It's actually odd that Carson didn't; usually all of the senior servants went. There wouldn't be anything for him to do at Downton without the family there.

Lady and Lord G came and went a lot in Season 1 and Hughes never traveled with them as I remember. In fact Hughes once told Lady G she had used the family's time away to catch up on doing things for the house that can't be done when the family is home. And wasn't that the opening scene of the first episode of Season 1 when they were hustling to uncover the furniture in time for the family's return? I seem to remember Mrs Hughes and Anna in that opening scene.

I also personally knew the housekeeper/cook/maid of an American family who had different sets of servants for each house. For them the servants usually stayed home and took a breather when the family was away, and then got the house ready when the family was headed back home.

I want to be Maggie Smith when I grow up.
I want to be Violet when I grow up. :D

[raindrop]

My first vote for Vera's murderer goes to Richard. But of course he wouldn't do it himself. He'd hire someone, and pay them highly for their trouble. Maybe that's why he was so angry at Mary, because he had gone to such extremes to secure her dignity? After all, if found out he could be hanged.

My second vote goes to O'Brien. She was the one who called Vera, and then regretted it. So in her remorse and desperation to save the dignity of the house she poisoned Vera. She had overheard enough to know that Bates would get blamed for it, but she didn't care because her primary concern was to save the dignity of the house. Maybe she thought it would make up for the harm she had done to Lady G? But then she realized Bates' trial and conviction hurt the family anyway.

I should know the answer to this but can't remember; was O'Brien called to testify for the prosecution about what she overheard while eavesdropping?

[Simplicio]

Pre-meditated murder seems like a stretch for O'Brian. The worst thing we've seen her do was leave the soap for Cora to slip on, and even that she regretted and tried to go back and fix almost immediately.

Plus Vera was in London, wasn't she? Bates needed to take a train to see her. It would be pretty tough for O'Brian to disappear long enough to travel there and back without being noticed.

[Sampiro]

Whichever poor working still does the laundry and shines the shoes must have been irked at the fully liveried footmen in their white ties and black patents out pounding the countryside for Isis.

[raindrop]

Pre-meditated murder seems like a stretch for O'Brian. The worst thing we've seen her do was leave the soap for Cora to slip on, and even that she regretted and tried to go back and fix almost immediately.

Plus Vera was in London, wasn't she? Bates needed to take a train to see her. It would be pretty tough for O'Brian to disappear long enough to travel there and back without being noticed.

Yeah, admittedly my vote for O'Brien as murderess is full of holes. But I think the worst she's done is to coach Thomas on how to be a better villain. I give O'Brien a lot of credit for helping Thomas learn to be so successfully awful, which has compromised the integrity of the entire house. Even though O'Brien told Thomas that he's so bad he makes her look "selfless" in comparison.

[ThelmaLou]

I was reading some viewer comments on the Downton Abby website http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/downtonabbey/ earlier. Someone posed the question, if Bates didn't kill Vera, who did? Could she really have killed herself? Or did someone else other than Bates? O'Brian? Thomas?

I've been assuming she killed herself and framed Bates. Not that that makes any sense or anything.

I have no inside information, but my theory is that she went back to Richard asking for more money or something and he had her killed.

[Toucanna]

One odd thing about Mrs. Hughes' testimony was the prosecution asking if Mr. Bates threatened or was going to hit Vera. I don't recall him saying he was going to, just Vera saying go ahead, and I'll get pictures made. Mrs. Hughes could not see them, just hear them, so there should have been some objection that she did not know if he was poised to strike her or not.
I agree. I was frustrated that the defense didn't object to any question asked by the prosecution.
{snip} In prompting Lord G, the prosecution referred to something that Bates had volunteered about their conversation. Mr. Bates is just too honest for his own good.
As was Lord G. Why didn't he use the old ploy of saying, "I don't remember, as I didn't pay much attention to it" or, "I can't recall his exact words"? ARGH!
{snip} Perhaps that's why Violet refused to dance [The Black Bottom] with [Thomas].
I got the feeling she didn't know what he was talking about and misinterpreted his remark. Didn't he ask her, "What about a 'Black Bottom'?" To which she replied something along the lines of "I hope not", thus making their exchange a double entendre. But I'd have to watch the episode again to be sure of the dialog.
I dunno: they dropped the "Crispy Crawley: Is He Is Or Is He Ain't?" subplot quickly enough.
"Crispy Crawley"!! ! Ha ha ha ha ha! :D
Is anyone else concerned about Carson?
Oooh, yes! I hope they don't kill him off. Jim Carter is the main reason I watch DA.
It was kind of sweet when Mary explained the whole Turk mess to her father, and he said it wasn't the first secret/scandal in the family, something like that. I wonder if he was thinking of his near dalliance with the maid...
I cynically think Julian Fellowes shoe-horned the dalliance in, in order remove Lord G's ability to take the moral high-ground with Mary when he learned the truth about "The Night of the Dead Turk".
Now that Mary doesn't need to run away to America...
I think she still does, because of the crapstorm of bad press Sir Richard is about to unload on the Granthams. Although, given how much DA costs to make, I don't think it'll have any scenes shot in the USA.
I wonder if Cora's mother will make her appearance at Downton?
Not only this, but it'll cost less to bring MacLaine to Downton than to send any of the Crawleys to the USA.
{snip} I wonder what type of staff their London house would have during the other nine months of the year...plus his lordship and other members of the family probably made periodic journeys there for business...
What I understand, based purely on my reading of novels set in Regency/Victorian/Edwardian Great Britain, is that the London residence was not opened if the lord of the manor came to town by himself. He would stay at his club.
Re: Sir Richard's confusion that the servants not working on Christmas Eve and New Years Day, I thought that this was a fairly common tradition.
It seems to be a common tradition, and I suspect Fellowes was trying to point out how vulgarly nouveau riche Sir Richard is because, not only doesn't he know about it, he objects to it.

[Toucanna]

Missed the edit window...
... I wonder if Cora's mother will make her appearance at Downton? How else will she have scenes with Violet?
Not only this, but it'll cost less to bring MacLaine to Downton than to send any of the Crawleys to the USA.

My apologies for any confusion.


Oh, and another thing I don't get. Why did Anna have to open the door to Hepworth's room when Lady Mary and Lady Rosamund wanted to find out what was going on?

[rackensack]

Hope I didn't miss someone else posting this already: http://www.vulture.com/2012/02/print-out-vultures-downton-abbey-paper-dolls.html

[alphaboi867]

Apparently the Court of Criminal Appeal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_Criminal_Appeal#England_and_Wales) in 1920 did not have jurisdiction over Yorkshire Courts, which incidentally could try cases which had occured in London and also they could permit hearsay evidence.

What exactly was the point of moving the trial to Yorkshire? :dubious: There was no dramatic need for Lord Grantham & co to stay close to home; just change a few lines of dialoge so they're going to London. It's not like they'd need to build any new sets than they did. You're a barrister, aren't you? How did criminal appeals work then? How realistic is the prospect of this ending up in the House of Lords in series 3?

...Oh, and another thing I don't get. Why did Anna have to open the door to Hepworth's room when Lady Mary and Lady Rosamund wanted to find out what was going on?

How else were they supposed to catch them in the act? :confused:

[Rhiannon8404]

Oh, and another thing I don't get. Why did Anna have to open the door to Hepworth's room when Lady Mary and Lady Rosamund wanted to find out what was going on?

As head housemaid, she would probably be the one with the keys to open the doors if they were locked.

[alphaboi867]

I know there was a general trend of turning stately homes like Downton into things like hotels and schools after WWII (when they weren't demolished entirely), but did that occur on a smaller scale after WWI as well? I can't see Sir Richard being charitable enough to turn Haxby into a school, but selling it to a hotelier seems like a definate possibility. Just imagine Dowager Lady Grantham's reaction to middle-class tourists holidaying next-door to Downton. ;)

[TreacherousCretin]

Could Vera have been murdered by Bates' mother?

.

[Simplicio]

Could Vera have been murdered by Bates' mother?

Bates' mother already dead (recall one of the things Vera was after was Bates' inheritance.)

That would've been a good twist though.

[Bridget Burke]

As head housemaid, she would probably be the one with the keys to open the doors if they were locked.

The housekeeper had the keys; Anna borrowed them from her when The Lady Detectives were on The Case of The Eloping Daughter.

For The Case of the Conniving Ladies Maid, Anna knew where they were kept. And the housekeeper was busy at the party....

[TreacherousCretin]

Bates' mother already dead (recall one of the things Vera was after was Bates' inheritance.)

That would've been a good twist though.

Ah. I couldn't remember the timeline.

[The Devil's Grandmother]

I think Vera Bates committed suicide. I also think both Anna and Bates think the other one did it. That's why they married so quickly; each was thinking this would prevent them from having to testify against the other. If my theory is correct, I hope the police find the vindictive suicide note soon.

[MsJinx]

Other than Bates' comment that his visit with Vera was 'worse than you can imagine' or whatever he said, we don't know anything about what happened. He may have talked to Anna about it before he was arrested, but we aren't privy to that. BTW, what accommodations were there for those two, after their one-night honeymoon in the luxury suite? did they then have to go back to their separate rooms? I don't recall how long it was between his return and the arrest.

[PrettyVacant]

I think the world needs a new food franchise; 'Mrs Patmore's Pies'

[Simplicio]

I think Vera Bates committed suicide. I also think both Anna and Bates think the other one did it. That's why they married so quickly; each was thinking this would prevent them from having to testify against the other. If my theory is correct, I hope the police find the vindictive suicide note soon.

I don't think Anna was out of the house long enough to get to London and back, so I don't see how Bates could suspect her. I guess she could've paid someone else to do it, but she hardly seems like someone with the resources to hire an assassin or who would know where to hire one even if she had the money.

[Eve]

I think the world needs a new food franchise; 'Mrs Patmore's Pies'
The worst pies in Downton,
Even that's polite!
The worst pies in Downton,
If you doubt it, take a bite!

[Sampiro]

Two things I didn't quite understand about why Mr. Bates' buying the arsenic was so damning, and they're things I may have just missed from the episode:
-Wasn't arsenic a fairly common household item?
-In London, how/why would anybody remember a guy coming into a shop to buy arsenic? It's not like he came in to buy a pistol or to request "the best mallet you have for bludgeoning a woman about so high" but something that was generally available in any drugstore.

Mrs. Bates was also a poorly drawn "and because I'm soooo evil I'm going to kill this bunny rabbit... slowly!" character. I didn't understand why she was so eager to remain married when she already had his money. They hadn't lived together in years, she knew he couldn't stand her, and she didn't really seem to care that much about him- how happy could their life together have been?

[Kimstu]

I didn't understand why she was so eager to remain married when she already had his money. They hadn't lived together in years, she knew he couldn't stand her, and she didn't really seem to care that much about him- how happy could their life together have been?

Wasn't the point just that she was damned if she was going to release him to be happy with Anna? She clearly has the grudge of the century against Bates, and anything that makes his life frustrating and unsatisfying is a good idea in her book.

It would be interesting (but beyond my expectations) if the trial testimony subtly brings out just what it was she had such a grudge about. We know that Bates blames himself or at least has blamed himself in the past for ruining Vera's life: why?

Perhaps just because of his war injury which left her apparently "tied for life to a pathetic cripple" (discrimination on grounds of physical disability was not as repudiated in Edwardian times as it has since become)? Perhaps his bout with alcoholism had a bad effect on her or led him to do bad things to her? Perhaps he just used to think she was nicer than she was and when she showed her true colors ('scuse me, "colours") he thought he'd somehow changed her for the worse?

I'd like to know but I kind of doubt Fellowes will tell us.

[MsJinx]

Mrs. Bates was also a poorly drawn "and because I'm soooo evil I'm going to kill this bunny rabbit... slowly!" character. I didn't understand why she was so eager to remain married when she already had his money. They hadn't lived together in years, she knew he couldn't stand her, and she didn't really seem to care that much about him- how happy could their life together have been?

I think she wanted a meal ticket, and Bates would be expected to support her. She'd have a house, and money for as long as he could work, and would continue to do what she pleased without regard for his feelings. She doesn't seem the type to ever be happy with someone, but she wanted the social standing and income of a married couple.

And he'd be hers to continue tormenting because she liked to do it, and now had the added pleasure of taunting him about Anna. She was jealous of Anna, seeing Bates truly caring for someone (even though he took the fall for her thievery). She could see Anna truly loved him and wanted to make him happy - something Vera couldn't/wouldn't do. She didn't want him to be happy.

[Rhiannon8404]

It would be interesting (but beyond my expectations) if the trial testimony subtly brings out just what it was she had such a grudge about. We know that Bates blames himself or at least has blamed himself in the past for ruining Vera's life: why?

We know from the first season, that he had been an alcoholic and when in his cups had been very cruel to Vera. That is why he covers for her when she steals the regimental silver. Not sure, though, why she stole the silver. Maybe he wasn't providing for her because he was drinking so much?

[Archergal]

I got the feeling she didn't know what he was talking about and misinterpreted his remark. Didn't he ask her, "What about a 'Black Bottom'?" To which she replied something along the lines of "I hope not", thus making their exchange a double entendre. But I'd have to watch the episode again to be sure of the dialog.

And didn't she go on to say something like "If you can keep me upright, we can avoid it" or something like that? I.e., so she wouldn't bruise her butt if she fell or something like that.

[Rhiannon8404]

And didn't she go on to say something like "If you can keep me upright, we can avoid it" or something like that? I.e., so she wouldn't bruise her butt if she fell or something like that.

That's how I interpreted the exchange.

[Sampiro]

And didn't she go on to say something like "If you can keep me upright, we can avoid it" or something like that? I.e., so she wouldn't bruise her butt if she fell or something like that.

I'm reasonably certain that mentioning Dame Maggie Smith's bottom is a sin, if it isn't an actual crime. Like Kim Jong Il, she has never had a bowel movement, and furthermore any children she has borne were conceived through song and emerged astrally through her exhalation.

[ThelmaLou]

Would a real-life Cora had said to Robert about Sibyl, "She's pregnant" right out like that? Wouldn't she have used a euphemism or some kind?

[Acsenray]

That kind of squeamishness is very middle class. Cora isn't a social climber like Hyacinth Bucket.

Remember back in the very first episode when Mary chided her patents for sharing a bedroom? There was a reason that upper class couples slept apart -- because they, both husbands and wives, were often entertaining paramours. This class of people was not dedicated to sexual fidelity.

[Toucanna]

Nobody at Downton Abbey is that hip about American dances...
But wasn't it Thomas who brought it up? And didn't he have contacts with the black market? So couldn't he have got hold of some music before it was officially released? See, it's so obvious if you apply logic. ;)
I'm hoping now that everyones "will they, won't they" romantic plots seemed to have resolved, part of the focus of next season will be "who killed Vera Bates" and we can see our heroes investigate the murder/suicide.
CSI: Downton!!!
...Why didn't [Lord G] use the old ploy of saying, "I don't remember, as I didn't pay much attention to it" or, "I can't recall his exact words"?...
I watched the episode again, and dammit, he did say, "I don't recall", and then proceeded to give a verbatim account of the conversation. Double argh!
...I got the feeling [the Dowager Countess] didn't know what [Thomas] was talking about and misinterpreted his remark...
SCENE: The Great Hall at Downton Abbey. The Dowager Countess and Lady Mary are in conversation.
The Dowager Countess: I gather Anna isn't going to America.
Lady Mary: No. But of course, I'm glad for her.
(Lady Mary sees Thomas approach)
Lady Mary, to The Dowager Countess: Uh, oh. Here he comes, to claim his prize.
Thomas, to The Dowager Countess: Your Ladyship, may I have the honor of this dance?
The Dowager Countess: Well, yes, as it is a waltz. I'm far too old for that awful foxtrot.
Thomas: What about "Black Bottom"?
The Dowager Countess: Just...just keep me upright and we'll try to avoid it.
...what accommodations were there for [Bates and Anna], after their one-night honeymoon in the luxury suite?...
Lord Grantham had offered Bates and Anna a cottage on the estate after the married. This was a typical offer made when the lord/lady of the manor wanted to keep two employees on their staff.
Two things I didn't quite understand about why Mr. Bates' buying the arsenic was so damning...
I had thought arsenic was an unlikely poisoner's choice for a quick kill, because it was a slow killer. Turns out I was wrong. Arsenic is odorless and colorless; some compounds have a slight odor of garlic. It takes only ~75 mg (~2.6 ounces) to kill an adult human weighing 75 kg (165 pounds). More info at: Wikipedia - Arsenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic) and Centre for Ecological Sciences, Indian Institute of Science - Arsenic (http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/energy/HC270799/HDL/ENV/enven/vol312.htm).

[Eve]

Two things I didn't quite understand about why Mr. Bates' buying the arsenic was so damning, and they're things I may have just missed from the episode: -Wasn't arsenic a fairly common household item?
It might not have been quite so damning, if Bates had not also bought a gun. a noose, a hatchet, a catapult, and an Acme Explodo-Time Bomb as well.

[Sampiro]

When Robert learned that Hepworth was penniless he said he had no problem with Rosamund marrying him so long as (Robert) first made sure her money was tied up. Earlier it had been made clear the money was left to her by her late husband. While it was a genuine concern, and also not a bad idea (because Hepworth would likely have spent her into the poor house), would Robert as head of the family have any control over tying up her money if his sister did not legally gave him control of her estate?

Perhaps Rosamund could romance Lady Edith's former suitor (whose name eludes me- 60-ish man with the bad arm). He seems a nice sort, isn't a golddigger, and while he felt, probably rightly, that he's too old and infirm for Edith, Rosamund's a generation older.

That kind of squeamishness is very middle class. Cora isn't a social climber like Hyacinth Bucket.

Speaking of, when Major Bryant's parents visited I initially thought his father was played by the actor who plays Onslow. He wasn't though. (Does that cast get around very much on other shows?)


I had thought arsenic was an unlikely poisoner's choice for a quick kill, because it was a slow killer. Turns out I was wrong. Arsenic is odorless and colorless; some compounds have a slight odor of garlic. It takes only ~75 mg (~2.6 ounces) to kill an adult human weighing 75 kg (165 pounds). More info at: Wikipedia - Arsenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic) and Centre for Ecological Sciences, Indian Institute of Science - Arsenic (http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/energy/HC270799/HDL/ENV/enven/vol312.htm).

My understanding is the reason it's a bad poisoner's choice is that even in 1919- even in ancient times for that matter- it's very obvious. The death doesn't look natural at all- there are lots of tell tale signs.

[The Devil's Grandmother]

-In London, how/why would anybody remember a guy coming into a shop to buy arsenic? It's not like he came in to buy a pistol or to request "the best mallet you have for bludgeoning a woman about so high" but something that was generally available in any drugstore.
The following was gleaned from a murder mystery called Strong Poison written by Dorthy L Sayers in 1930:
In England, when you bought poison you had to sign a register (a big book like the ones in old-fashioned hotel lobbies). It might not have been difficult to use another name, but if Bates wasn't planning on killing Vera he wouldn't have bothered.
Arsenic was commonly used to kill rats.
Arsenic poisoning can also look like various digestive problems, so unless you were looking for it, it wasn't totally obvious.

[Sampiro]

The following was gleaned from a murder mystery called Strong Poison written by Dorthy L Sayers in 1930:
In England, when you bought poison you had to sign a register (a big book like the ones in old-fashioned hotel lobbies). It might not have been difficult to use another name, but if Bates wasn't planning on killing Vera he wouldn't have bothered.
Arsenic was commonly used to kill rats.
Arsenic poisoning can also look like various digestive problems, so unless you were looking for it, it wasn't totally obvious.

That is very helpful. Thanks.

It also explains why it really was stupid of Bates not to volunteer "I bought arsenic" to the PoPo.

[Dangerosa]

It might not have been quite so damning, if Bates had not also bought a gun. a noose, a hatchet, a catapult, and an Acme Explodo-Time Bomb as well.

And had Wile E Coyote in his employ.

[raindrop]

Ahh, this is fun, a video tribute to Maggie Smith...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYw66lOvVzw

[raindrop]

...Lady Edith's former suitor (whose name eludes me- 60-ish man with the bad arm).
Anthony Strallan

[Sampiro]

Anthony Strallan

Thanks. Lady Mary telling him about "the old bore" was the only time in the series I wanted to pull off a shoe and just "go Ike" on her in front of assembled family and guests. (True, she had reason to be p.o.d at Edith, but Mary's action ruined two lives and was based on a lie; Edith's offense was at least true.)

[raindrop]

Thanks. Lady Mary telling him about "the old bore" was the only time in the series I wanted to pull off a shoe and just "go Ike" on her in front of assembled family and guests. (True, she had reason to be p.o.d at Edith, but Mary's action ruined two lives and was based on a lie; Edith's offense was at least true.)

If not for Mary’s "the old bore" comment Strallan and Edith would probably be happily married by now. And Edith looked so lovely, adorably cute, and very sweet, when she stopped by his home to invite him for a drive. Edith and Strallan do look so well suited for each other, and even very romantic too. I keep trying to muster up sympathy for Edith but just can't quite get there. That’s probably because I'm an older sister of a jealous younger sister who spent every waking moment of her life resenting me, competing with me, thinking up ways pick a fight with me, and generally making me miserable, when all I wanted was to be left alone. Yes, Mary was a meanie and I've never done anything like that to my younger sister, but I do relate to how Mary felt about Edith at that moment. And that is why when Mary nodded and tipped her glass of champagne to Edith after Strallan left it gave me such a delicious chuckle.

And even though Edith's offense was true, what makes it worse IMO is that she did that to her own sister. Sadly, she wanted so badly to hurt Mary that she didn't realize she was also doing a very great harm to herself in the same stroke.

[Toucanna]

Did anyone notice DA's resident Über-Nit-Picker, Alisair Bruce, sitting at the lunch table after the grouse shoot? (The scene where Isobel asks Lord G if she can attend Bates' trial.)
It might not have been quite so damning, if Bates had not also bought a gun. a noose, a hatchet, a catapult, and an Acme Explodo-Time Bomb as well.
And had Wile E Coyote in his employ.
Sir Richard hired James "the Napoleon of crime" Moriarty to deal with Vera. Moriarty hired Wile E. Coyote. This is what happens when you don't verify your sub-contractor's references. Shoulda done the job 'imself.
...would Robert as head of the family have any control over tying up her money if his sister did not legally gave him control of her estate? {snip}
I'm not sure what legal right he may have, but he certainly could use his position as her (elder) brother to influence her to have a lawyer (solicitor, attorney, barrister, councilor, whatever they were called at the time. I'm still confused about that) draft a marriage contract or set up a trust that protected her £££.
...when Major Bryant's parents visited I initially thought his father was played by the actor who plays Onslow. He wasn't though. (Does that cast get around very much on other shows?)
Major Bryant's son, Charlie, will marry and have children. One of them will be Onslow's dad. I can hear Hyacinth now, ringing the bell at Downton and demanding Carson's great-great-grandson take her card in to Lord Grantham, as she has "strong family connections" with the place.

As for the cast of Keeping Up Appearances:
Patricia "Hyacinth Bucket" Routledge has been in tons of stuff, as well as Judy "Daisy" Cornwell and Clive "Richard Bucket" Swift. (Note to Whovians: Cornwell, Swift and Geoffrey "Onslow" Hughes have been in episodes of Doctor Who.) And, finally, for the trivia buffs, David Griffin, who played "Emmet" the next-door neighbor, was in Julian Fellowes Investigates: A Most Mysterious Murder - The Case of the Earl of Erroll, (TV 2005).

About Anna opening the door to Hepworth's room: she did not use a key. She put her hand on the doorknob, turned it and entered. I consulted someone* with great knowledge of etiquette of the period. She hasn't seen Downton Abbey, but this is her theory:

During a house's "business hours", servants could enter a room without knocking. This was necessary because of all the work that needed to be done (cleaning, tidying up, restocking, prepping the room for the night, etc.) When the guest declared they were retiring for the night, their maid or valet assisted them in getting ready for bed. Once the guest had retired for the night, the guest's attendant informed the staff of this and the staff did not enter the room until the next morning (after the attendant had taken tea and toast in). If, during the night, it was necessary to communicate something to the guest or enter their room, the guest's valet or maid was directed to do so.

Etiquette dictated that a Lady did not enter a Gentleman's private room, much less, enter without knocking. If she needed to communicate with the gentleman, she sent a footman or her maid or some other lackey.

In "The Case of the Lecherous Lord and the Duplicitous Lady's-Maid", since Hepworth had not retired "officially" for the evening (and Shaw was supposed to be attending the Servants' Ball), Anna had the "right" to enter Hepworth's room without knocking or announcing herself in any manner. Thus, Lady Mary had to have Anna open the door if she wanted to catch Hepworth in a compromising position without breaching etiquette (or, perhaps just as important, displaying bad manners): "I just happened to be walking by your door when the housemaid entered--on official household business, I absolutely assure you--when, oops! I saw what you were doing with a member of the downstairs staff. Such poor form!"

-------------------------
*Okay, okay, so it was my mom. But she really knows about this stuff from having read tons and tons of (better quality) novels.

[Oslo Ostragoth]

Ahh, this is fun, a video tribute to Maggie Smith...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYw66lOvVzw

:D Terrific!

[raindrop]

Sir Richard hired James "the Napoleon of crime" Moriarty to deal with Vera. Moriarty hired Wile E. Coyote. This is what happens when you don't verify your sub-contractor's references. Shoulda done the job 'imself..
Just so you know, you really crack me up. :D

About Anna opening the door to Hepworth's room: she did not use a key. She put her hand on the doorknob, turned it and entered.
I also think Anna had to be there to open the door for the dramatic effect. I just watched it again and as Miss Shore left the room she walked very near Anna. At that moment Anna glared at her and gave her a look as if to say, "oh yeah, bitch, I was the one who told on your lying cheating ass. So, what about it?"

This also sets up Shore and Anna as enemies for future dramatic effects. Fellowes might not ever use the tension between them, but if he wants to, it's conveniently there now.

[Oslo Ostragoth]

Did anyone notice DA's resident Über-Nit-Picker, Alisair Bruce, sitting at the lunch table after the grouse shoot?

I thought they were shooting pheasants, confirmed by Violet at about :13 in.

[Hah! I'm king of the nitpickers!]

[alphaboi867]

...BTW, what accommodations were there for those two, after their one-night honeymoon in the luxury suite? did they then have to go back to their separate rooms? I don't recall how long it was between his return and the arrest.

...Lord Grantham had offered Bates and Anna a cottage on the estate after the married. This was a typical offer made when the lord/lady of the manor wanted to keep two employees on their staff...

Yep, that was the plan. The Bates would be set up in a cottage on the estate and both would continue to work in the great house & take their meals in the servants quarters (at least until Anna got pregnant). There just wasn't enough time between their wedding and Bates's arrest to set all that up. Now I guess Anna will serve as Lady Mary's lady's maid & live with her & Matthew while Bates is in prison.

[MsJinx]

Yep, that was the plan. The Bates would be set up in a cottage on the estate and both would continue to work in the great house & take their meals in the servants quarters (at least until Anna got pregnant). There just wasn't enough time between their wedding and Bates's arrest to set all that up. Now I guess Anna will serve as Lady Mary's lady's maid & live with her & Matthew while Bates is in prison.

I guess that saves the producers the cost of another set!

I wonder if Mary & Matthew's wedding will be shown, or if the story will pick up at a later date when there could be a baby even. I doubt that Sybil has been completely written out, but how much a part of the story can she be if she's away? Does anyone know the history of what was going on in Ireland then - did it begin around this time? Was it foreshadowing when Cora said it might be useful to have a contact on the inside to protect them from the revolution?

[Acsenray]

Does anyone know the history of what was going on in Ireland then - did it begin around this time? Was it foreshadowing when Cora said it might be useful to have a contact on the inside to protect them from the revolution?

Ireland was at war from 1919 to 1923, first against the British and then against each other.

[MsJinx]

Ireland was at war from 1919 to 1923, first against the British and then against each other.

Then it may be difficult for Sybil amd Branson to come home, or for someone to go there to visit (if they'd even want to). Or if she can come home, it could prevent her returning.

And that leaves poor Edith without any pending story line except being hopeful that Mr. Strallan will change his mind. Didn't someone mention she could do the driving for them - that's a plus!

[PeskiPiksi]

Maybe Branson will get killed, and Sybil will come home. Could be an interesting story line with her adjusting back to the fancy life after having seen the other side.

[Bridget Burke]

The third series is being shot right now. "Branson" will definitely remain (https://twitter.com/#%21/Allenleech/status/166879636914053121) in the cast; his last appearance convinced me he can probably act when given decent lines.

Wikipedia has a good summary of what's known about Series 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downton_Abbey#Series_three). Nothing really spoilery--most has already been discussed here.

[TruCelt]

I think Lady Edith is far more suited to a quiet life of retirement than Lady Rosamund is! LOL!

I do think Vera killed herself, and that she meant for it to look like Bates did it. Thinking from her perspective: She is Irish, and therefore married for life. Even if the divorce goes through she can't re-marry, and she's thoroughly PO'd to find out that he can and will. She married this guy who went off to war, came home a cripple, then turned to alcohol; and he's a mean drunk. She steals the silver (to keep them from starving? ) and he goes to jail for her. She perceives this as romantic proof that he loves her afterall, and hopes when he gets out they'll finally have a life together, only to find him running off to Downton and falling in love with another woman.

One can't help but see that she's got a right to a little bitterness, hey? And really, he doesn't come out so terribly well when you look at it. She wants to force him to keep his vows and build a life for the two of them. She's become rather nasty about it over the years, that's true. And in the end, she joins the ancient order of "If I can't have you I'll at least determine what happens to you" jealous idiots.

I'm not saying she's a nice lady, but she's not so difficult to understand.

As for Sybil, I predict she has the baby and comes home to be safe during the fighting. Branson will almost certainly get himself killed early on.

I do hope we'll get to see some lovely duels between Shirley McLean and Maggie Smith.

[Toucanna]

I thought they were shooting pheasants...
At least it wasn't a snipe hunt. Or a wild goose chase.
I guess that saves the producers the cost of another set!

I wonder if Mary & Matthew's wedding will be shown, or if the story will pick up at a later date when there could be a baby even. I doubt that Sybil has been completely written out, but how much a part of the story can she be if she's away? Does anyone know the history of what was going on in Ireland then - did it begin around this time? Was it foreshadowing when Cora said it might be useful to have a contact on the inside to protect them from the revolution?
I don't think they'll show the wedding. Maybe there will be oohing and ahing over the wedding pix.

I don't think Lady G said anything about Branson being useful as protection, just useful because he was on the other side.

My groundless conjecture is that the political situation will get so dangerous, Lord & Lady G, and Sybil & Branson will agree Sybil & the baby will be safer at Downton while Branson continues his Important Work in Ireland.
...that leaves poor Edith without any pending story line except being hopeful that [Sir Anthony] Strallan will change his mind. Didn't someone mention she could do the driving for them - that's a plus!
While I agree Edith could be very good at taking them both for a spin, I think Sir Anthony is too old-fashioned to allow her to drive him.

[Toucanna]

{snip} I do hope we'll get to see some lovely duels between Shirley McLean and Maggie Smith.
With Sir Richard gone, she needs some other par venue to spar with! En garde!

[TruCelt]

Those having trouble picturing Shirley in this role, may be overlooking her "Steel Magnolias" character. I can totally see Violet calling her on some obscure faux pas and Shirley saying "You'll have to excuse me, I've been in a very bad mood for the last 20 years."

[MsJinx]

Those having trouble picturing Shirley in this role, may be overlooking her "Steel Magnolias" character. I can totally see Violet calling her on some obscure faux pas and Shirley saying "You'll have to excuse me, I've been in a very bad mood for the last 20 years."


Violet has already cast so many aspersions on Americans, I'm sure it won't take long for something to happen.

I was remembering a tea (in the U.S.) for Daughters of the British Empire - the guests were middle-age and older women from the UK, many had married American men (some were even WWII war brides). Someone had placed a crocheted tea cosy over one of the teapots on the luncheon table. Granted, it was a rather hideous shapeless purple striated acrylic yarn thing. One of the British ladies was almost apoplectic when she saw it. Her friend snatched it off, her lips pursed, nostrils flaring, saying crisply 'Oh, these tacky Americans!'.
I thought it was funny, but chose to keep my mouth shut and hope they wouldn't immediately acsertain that I was one of those Americans.

[Oslo Ostragoth]

BTW, there was a very Gwen-looking maid at the servants' table at least once.

[Bridget Burke]

Violet has already cast so many aspersions on Americans, I'm sure it won't take long for something to happen.

I was remembering a tea (in the U.S.) for Daughters of the British Empire - the guests were middle-age and older women from the UK, many had married American men (some were even WWII war brides). Someone had placed a crocheted tea cosy over one of the teapots on the luncheon table. Granted, it was a rather hideous shapeless purple striated acrylic yarn thing. One of the British ladies was almost apoplectic when she saw it. Her friend snatched it off, her lips pursed, nostrils flaring, saying crisply 'Oh, these tacky Americans!'.
I thought it was funny, but chose to keep my mouth shut and hope they wouldn't immediately acsertain that I was one of those Americans.

Among the monstrosities available at Amazon.UK is this lovely piece (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Woodware-Farmyard-Charlie-Chicken-Teacosy/dp/B0037L64A4/ref=sr_1_3?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1330003211&sr=1-3). British design allows you to decorate your home elegantly (modern, traditional, etc.) or fill it with unspeakable tattiness....

Quite rude of the old bat.

[MsJinx]

Among the monstrosities available at Amazon.UK is this lovely piece (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Woodware-Farmyard-Charlie-Chicken-Teacosy/dp/B0037L64A4/ref=sr_1_3?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1330003211&sr=1-3). British design allows you to decorate your home elegantly (modern, traditional, etc.) or fill it with unspeakable tattiness....

Quite rude of the old bat.


It's a good thing that Thanksgiving is an American holiday then. It won't offend the good taste of those in other countries.

I admit to crocheting a lovely little chick egg warmer, though. But it was cute!

[TruCelt]

World's greatest Tea Cozy: http://brutal-knitting.tumblr.com/ scroll down to about the ninth or tenth picture. . .

I can't find it now, but somebody said above that they had set up Shore and Anna for future animosity. I can't imagine anyone supposing that Shore would still have a job after that? She must certainly have been dismissed with prejudice.

[Toucanna]

{snip} I can't find it now, but somebody said above that they had set up Shore and Anna for future animosity. I can't imagine anyone supposing that Shore would still have a job after that? She must certainly have been dismissed with prejudice.
raindrop, in post #105. I agree that it is unlikely Anna and Shore's paths will cross again. And Shore would have been dismissed "without a character [reference]".

@Oslo Ostragoth: I noticed "Gwen" too!

[raindrop]

raindrop, in post #105. I agree that it is unlikely Anna and Shore's paths will cross again. And Shore would have been dismissed "without a character [reference]".
Since it's a "soap opera" I expect a lot of unlikely things can happen. For instance, someone can die and come back to life. Someone can have a permanent injury that cripples for life, and then recover. Someone could get caught stealing and then get a job as Lord G's valet. And someone like Shore could end up working for someone like Richard, since he's bound to make up his own rules anyway. I just noticed Anna's glaring at Shore and it sparked my imagination is all. If they ever do cross paths again it will be intense, and icy.

I also wondered if Anna could end up working for Rosamund? After all, Rosamund needs a new Lady's maid and Anna has just proved her loyalty and helped her tremendously. So yeah, that crossed my mind too.

I know it's all just make believe and whatever happens depends on what type of fantasy Fellowes decides to write.

[Toucanna]

Since it's a "soap opera" I expect a lot of unlikely things can happen. For instance,...
:D I know, I know. If I let myself roll my eyes at every preposterous situation in Series 3, I'd make some ophthalmologist a very rich wo/man!
I know it's all just make believe and whatever happens depends on what type of fantasy Fellowes decides to write.
I hear you. Gotta keep telling myself, "This ain't no documentary." :)

[TruCelt]

Since it's a "soap opera" I expect a lot of unlikely things can happen. For instance, someone can die and come back to life. Someone can have a permanent injury that cripples for life, and then recover. Someone could get caught stealing and then get a job as Lord G's valet. And someone like Shore could end up working for someone like Richard, since he's bound to make up his own rules anyway. I just noticed Anna's glaring at Shore and it sparked my imagination is all. If they ever do cross paths again it will be intense, and icy.

. . .

You're absolutely right there. :eek:

[Andiethewestie]

I don't think they'll show the wedding. Maybe there will be oohing and ahing over the wedding pix.



I hope they show a wedding. It would be lovely to swoon over
1920's lace and delicacies, introduce some distance relative characters, and it could be a grand affair for Ms Maclean :)

[Oslo Ostragoth]

raindrop, in post #105. I agree that it is unlikely Anna and Shore's paths will cross again. And Shore would have been dismissed "without a character [reference]".

@Oslo Ostragoth: I noticed "Gwen" too!

I've been through the screencaps (http://killcolor.livejournal.com/127346.html), and I'm pretty sure it's a different (http://disparue.org/caps/television/downtonabbey/2/christmas/images/downton2christmas_0531.jpg) actress.

[Elendil's Heir]

My wife and I enjoyed the Christmas special very much - even more than we had S2. Matthew's proposal to Mary in the snow was terrific; a nice touch to have Mary insist he "do it properly."

Apparently the Court of Criminal Appeal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_Criminal_Appeal#England_and_Wales) in 1920 did not have jurisdiction over Yorkshire Courts, which incidentally could try cases which had occured in London and also they could permit hearsay evidence.

Here's the actual Home Secretary of the day; a Liberal, as His Lordship observed. And as you see, he handled another prominent reprieve case, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Shortt

Sir Richard: It's unlikely you will see me again!

Granny: Do you promise?

:D

We loved that line, too. My second-favorite was when Lord Grantham said something about Thomas proving that he's not such a bad fellow after all, and Carson, with a wonderful mix of doubt and astonishment, asking, "Is he?"

...Perhaps that's why Violet refused to dance it with him. "It is not proper to perform a dance until it is in existence and popularized."

LOL.

...I assume that if Edith is still unmarried when her father dies she'll just follow Cora to wherever she lives. I think Edith will get a husband in or by the 3rd series though.... Edith will end up in a boring, socially accepted marriage with children....

With children or not, I still kinda hope she's able to win back Strallan. They seemed well-suited for each other, despite the age difference.

It might not have been quite so damning, if Bates had not also bought a gun. a noose, a hatchet, a catapult, and an Acme Explodo-Time Bomb as well.

That's another way in which defense counsel fell down on the job. "Obviously, gentlemen of the jury, no one buys Acme products if they actually want to succeed at a task!"

Ahh, this is fun, a video tribute to Maggie Smith...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYw66lOvVzw

That was great. My dad, many years ago, said, "I swear Maggie Smith has been 80 for about 20 years!"

I hope they show a wedding. It would be lovely to swoon over
1920's lace and delicacies, introduce some distance relative characters, and it could be a grand affair for Ms Maclean :)

Well, I wouldn't swoon, but yes, I'd definitely like to see the wedding. That could be two or three episodes right there.

[Dangerosa]

With children or not, I still kinda hope she's able to win back Strallan. They seemed well-suited for each other, despite the age difference.


I hope so as well. With Mary about to be married off (I doubt they will pull the rug out this time) and Sybil already married off, there has to be another romance - though it might take a while.

The interesting thing becomes, if there are three daughters married off, Bates and Anna married, and the only grandchildren still 20 years away from romance, what do you do for a Soap Opera plot. Daisy will obviously get another chance for a romance. So you have to drag out Edith.....or kill off Branson (which doesn't seem unlikely). Because you aren't going to manage getting rid of Matthew.

[alphaboi867]

...With children or not, I still kinda hope she's able to win back Strallan. They seemed well-suited for each other, despite the age difference...

Agreed. And Sir Antony is hardly an invalid. So one arm doesn't work; he's an industrialist it doesn't affect his ability to earn a living at all. Nor does he require nursing and any special care beyond slightly more assistance getting dressed from his valet. Of course there's always the possibily that he suffered another injury that rendered him unsuitable as a husband that he can't mention in mixed company.

[PeskiPiksi]

I can't remember if it was this thread or the other where we discussed the timeline and the girls' ages, but I just re-watched the last episode of the first series and Sibyl was definitely 18 when she had her first Season. When Lady G tells Lord G that she's pregnant, he says something like, "but you haven't been pregnant in 18 years!" (This conversation takes place the day they get back from London, so no oddities about time passing.)

Just for the record.

[abmabardy]

Have Matthew and Mary ever said the words "I love you" to each other?

[Eve]

Have Matthew and Mary ever said the words "I love you" to each other?
I should hope not--only the middle classes would be so emotionally demonstrative.

[TruCelt]

Granny did it for them.

[Elendil's Heir]

They exchanged embossed, creamy vellum notes.

[Sampiro]

The show isn't pornography, after all!

[TruCelt]

Never in writing, dear. One never knows into whose hands a note may fall. . .

[Acsenray]

I should hope not--only the middle classes would be so emotionally demonstrative.

No, the middle class would be even more concerned about appearances. Displays of affection are definitely working class. Look at how Bates and Anna are always mooning about.

[abmabardy]

I should hope not--only the middle classes would be so emotionally demonstrative.

I think I remember Matthew telling Lavinia he loved her.

[shijinn]

i recall Lavinia saying it but not the other way around.

[Eve]

I think I remember Matthew telling Lavinia he loved her.
Precisely--Matthew is really "NOKD." I mean, he worked.

[Elendil's Heir]

He even knew what a weekend was. Heavens!

[raindrop]

The word "love" is used sparingly, or not at all, as was the custom. But Fellowes seems to make it clear who is really in love. Mary seemed in love with Matthew, but was also very conflicted. Matthew loved Mary, then loved Lavinia, but still loved Mary. It is made clear to us even when it wasn't spoken aloud. Anna said aloud she loved Bates, with no reservation or apology. Bates was stuck on Anna right from the start even though he didn't say it for a while. William was never not in love with Daisy. With just a look we knew how he felt. It was also made clear that Edith loved Patrick, and now she's having genuine passionate feelings for Strallan. I think Branson loves Sybil, but came off as more presumptuous and bullying IMO. I just didn't think Sybil was in love with Branson. She lingered around Branson a lot, but I never saw anything from her that was a clear indication as love. (IMO it looked more like curiosity?) With or without the actual "love" word I think Fellowes intentionally left some characters' feelings ambiguous or unclear. And since he's knows how to make it clear who is really in love, I think he left it unclear for a reason.

[SaharaTea]

I just didn't think Sybil was in love with Branson. She lingered around Branson a lot, but I never saw anything from her that was a clear indication as love. (IMO it looked more like curiosity?) With or without the actual "love" word I think Fellowes intentionally left some characters' feelings ambiguous or unclear. And since he's knows how to make it clear who is really in love, I think he left it unclear for a reason.
I agree, I don't think Sybil loves Branson. She made it fairly clear that she was marrying him mainly to get the hell away from Downton.

It's nice that Mary won't have to change her name when she gets married. Or she could be known as Lady Mary Crawley-Crawley. ;)

[PunditLisa]

If the Crawley-Crawleys have a son, they could name him "Creepy-Creepy"! Or just Boris.

As far as what is coming, what year are we in now? 1918? Then I'd say the Roaring 20s are coming on!

[Bridget Burke]

The last show we saw covered Christmas, 1919 and New Years Day, 1920.

[SaharaTea]

Can any British history buffs give us an idea of what life was like in England during the 20s? Did the distinctions between classes ease up? Did England enjoy the same economic prosperity that the U.S. did? I know England went through a depression immediately after the war, but I wasn't sure how long it lasted.

Perhaps the Crawleys will honeymoon in Paris with Ernest Hemingway and the Fitzgeralds. Or maybe that's a Woody Allen movie. :)

[John Bredin]

Can any British history buffs give us an idea of what life was like in England during the 20s? Did the distinctions between classes ease up? Did England enjoy the same economic prosperity that the U.S. did? I know England went through a depression immediately after the war, but I wasn't sure how long it lasted.

Well, there was the General Strike of 1926 (wiki) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Strike_of_1926), which implies that (1) the working classes perceived something to be wrong with the broader economy (2) a good three years before the Crash of '29.

Perhaps the Crawleys will honeymoon in Paris with Ernest Hemingway and the Fitzgeralds. Or maybe that's a Woody Allen movie. :)

More likely Branson and Lady Sybil. :)