I'm watching ST: The Next Generation from the beginning

[Anaamika]

Am I crazy or am I just crazy? And if so, how crazy am I?

My boyfriend in college was a huge ST fan, and with him I watched a great deal of TNG and DS9. I vastly preferred DS9, but when I saw that Netflix had them both on insta-watch, I decided, why not?

So I started watching. I've only watched a couple of episodes (I just started Friday!).

Bad:

I can't believe how much the writers jizz in their pants about Westley. I knew that was the case, I just had no idea how bad it really was.
I also have been counting the times Deanna Troi was useful. So far: one. In three episodes.
The sexual tension between Riker and Troi and Picard and Crusher is awful and nearly unbearable. Troi acts like a lovestruck girl, chasing Riker in the middle of work, and Picard excuses Westley's actions because his mother is making Picard feel all funny.
The security thing! I got spoiled by Babylon 5, what with security everywhere and when you have a stationwide threat, a security team goes out and you actually see them! Here it's like, Tasha Yar, going out and dealing with all of the threats herself.

Good:

I never saw Data from the beginning. I only know how far he grew. I think it will be very fun and entertaining watching his journey.
Riker used to feel a little smug to me, but watching him in these early episodes, I see he wasn't like that. He was uncertain and hesitant, and he, like the others, will grow into his role.
I love Jean-Luc as captain, of course.
And Worf is just a big ol' grouchy grouchball in these early episodes! It's funny to see him and Data almost agreeing on some things because they both don't get humans.


So what do you guys think? Worthy endeavor?

[teela brown]

Completely worthy. I only watched the first season or so once, because it was pretty awful. It's fun to see the series mature from silly to good; you can almost pick out the cutoff point when Roddenberry was gently steered away from writing the episodes and better writers took over.

Yeah, there was far more sexual tension between Troi and Worf than there ever was between Troi and Riker.

[hajario]

One of my college roommates loved that show so I watched a lot of the first two or three seasons. It drove me crazy because they would use some of the stupidest lazy plot devices imaginable.

One that sticks in my mind is ... I should spoiler this, I guess

Data has an evil brother who is one design revision back from him but they are identical looking. Evil Data disguises himself as Data and plans to cause havoc. Wesley discovers that he can tell them apart because Data, the most sophisticated android in the galaxy can't speak in English contractions (can't don't won't). Evil Data says can't instead of cannot and the ruse is revealed.

Can you imagine anything more fucking idiotic? 1. The most sophisticated android ever has this one insanely stupid flaw. 2. He's supposed to be the new revision but in this case the old version is better. 3. They're not even supposed to be speaking English anyway because everyone speaks their own language and the Universal Translator fixes everything.

[Bosstone]

There's a reason the the trope about when a show really starts getting good is named after Riker growing the beard. The first season or two are shaky and kind of painful, but once he's got the beard things get good.

[mlees]

hajario, maybe those are features, and not bugs. :)

Soong knew what he was doing.

[Kinthalis]

God yes, the first season was like a rehash of TOS plot lines and character development. Terrible. I really never liked the original (except for the movies), to me it always played out super campy, like a bad Sy-Fy Sunday afternoon special.

But from season 2 on, TNG grew to become an incredible series. Absolutely shaped my young mind in ways more good than bad, and it became my ruler against which I compare pretty much all Sci-Fi.

Eventually I started watching DS9, and that series became my favorite, but TNG is a super close second.

I'm actually going to do the same as the OP. I just finished going through Enterprise (good series overall, IMHO, except for the time travel bits and some of the episodes in the final season), and I'm tackling TNG next.

I don't think they have DS9 for streaming on netflix, do they? I'll order the DVD's once I'm done with TNG.

As an aside: The entire TNG series is coming to blu-ray with remastered video, special effects and audio.

It's looking mighty good.

[Leaffan]

Love TOS hate TNG. It never worked for me. I tuned in originally and didn't like it much. Apparently by the time it was good I only watched the occasional episode, which ALWAYS came down to some sort of holodeck experience: in other words nothing about space and space travel. They could have written the same plot into "Fantasy Island."

"The starship, boss. The starship!"

[Anaamika]

Kinthalis, They have DS9 for streaming also. I added it at the same time as I added TNG. No idea on how long the rights are going to last; right at the exact moment I got totally sucked into B5, Netflix's license to stream it ran out. Poo. I ended up buying that series.

Leaffan, I've watched TOS as well, when it was on hulu. I liked it a lot, and was floored by how gorgeous Kirk was in those days. Those amber eyes! Flat belly and everything. Fun, if a bit silly at times. :)

hajario, I actually remember the episode you speak of.

[Der Trihs]

I'm another person who only watched most of the first season only once, despite liking the show. Lots of winceworthy stuff in the first season.

One that sticks in my mind is ... I should spoiler this, I guess

Data has an evil brother who is one design revision back from him but they are identical looking. Evil Data disguises himself as Data and plans to cause havoc. Wesley discovers that he can tell them apart because Data, the most sophisticated android in the galaxy can't speak in English contractions (can't don't won't). Evil Data says can't instead of cannot and the ruse is revealed.

Can you imagine anything more fucking idiotic? 1. The most sophisticated android ever has this one insanely stupid flaw. 2. He's supposed to be the new revision but in this case the old version is better. 3. They're not even supposed to be speaking English anyway because everyone speaks their own language and the Universal Translator fixes everything. I've seen the fan-argument made that Soong deliberately made Data with that flaw/feature in order to make humans less nervous about Data's general superiority.

[Miller]

I tried to do this with DS9 a little while ago, which I always remembered as the "good" Star Trek series, and I just couldn't make it through. It was rocky from the beginning, but once the Klingons showed up, I just couldn't take it any more. Seriously, is there any military force in the whole of sci-fidom more incompetent than the Klingon Empire? The big fight scene when the Klingons attack DS9 features them beaming aboard the station, attacking the crew with knives, for fucks sake, and still getting their asses handed to them by unarmed humans.

That was about where I gave up on the show. I watched another three or four episodes, but my heart wasn't in it any more.

[mlees]

I've seen the fan-argument made that Soong deliberately made Data with that flaw/feature in order to make humans less nervous about Data's general superiority.

IIRC, Lore told Data this. "I'm superior to you. Nyahh nyahh."

But Lore may have been lying.

[Der Trihs]

IIRC, Lore told Data this. "I'm superior to you. Nyahh nyahh."

But Lore may have been lying.
Soong on the other hand told Data that he wasn't inferior when Data met him later in the series.

[hajario]

hajario, I actually remember the episode you speak of.

OK. I was spoilering for you but since you're reading them I'll stop.

What about the one which started out as a pretty cool call out to a TOS ep. Everyone gets a disease which makes them go crazy and Data has to save the day since he can't get viruses (human viruses anyway, I guess he could get a firmware virus.) Riker has a vague memory of reading the history of a previous similar thing in the records of the old Enterprise.

So it's Data to the rescue and he can read really, really fast so he goes through the entire database sequentially. They keep cutting to him looking intently at the viewscreen while all of these pictures and text quickly flash past. WTF? Databases in the 1960's had rudimentary search functions. Christ, even books made out of paper have indexes.

Lazy, lazy writing.

[hajario]

I've seen the fan-argument made that Soong deliberately made Data with that flaw/feature in order to make humans less nervous about Data's general superiority.

How would Soong have known about some weird obscure fact that only appears in one language on one planet? Even if he did, they don't really speak English.

[Miller]

How would Soong have known about some weird obscure fact that only appears in one language on one planet? Even if he did, they don't really speak English.

Also, if I'm nervous about the super-strong, super-smart, basically indestructible Replacement Human, his inability to say "don't" is not going to be particularly reassuring.

[mlees]

How would Soong have known about some weird obscure fact that only appears in one language on one planet? Even if he did, they don't really speak English.

Cite that Data doesn't speak English?

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_Standard

[teela brown]

OK. I was spoilering for you but since you're reading them I'll stop.

What about the one which started out as a pretty cool call out to a TOS ep. Everyone gets a disease which makes them go crazy and Data has to save the day since he can't get viruses (human viruses anyway, I guess he could get a firmware virus.) Riker has a vague memory of reading the history of a previous similar thing in the records of the old Enterprise.

So it's Data to the rescue and he can read really, really fast so he goes through the entire database sequentially. They keep cutting to him looking intently at the viewscreen while all of these pictures and text quickly flash past. WTF? Databases in the 1960's had rudimentary search functions. Christ, even books made out of paper have indexes.

Lazy, lazy writing.

Was that the one where

Data and Tasha Yar did the nasty?

[hajario]

So it's Data to the rescue and he can read really, really fast so he goes through the entire database sequentially. They keep cutting to him looking intently at the viewscreen while all of these pictures and text quickly flash past. WTF? Databases in the 1960's had rudimentary search functions. Christ, even books made out of paper have indexes.

Lazy, lazy writing.

It's like their whole data base was just this random mish mash of stuff. How would anyone look up anything if it wasn't intelligently categorized?

[olivesmarch4th]

So it's Data to the rescue and he can read really, really fast so he goes through the entire database sequentially. They keep cutting to him looking intently at the viewscreen while all of these pictures and text quickly flash past. WTF? Databases in the 1960's had rudimentary search functions. Christ, even books made out of paper have indexes.

Lazy, lazy writing.
I'm glad this kind of stuff goes right over my head.

TNG is for the most part, fantastic. I prefer DS9 but Sisko can't hold a candle to Picard.

[Anaamika]

Was that the one where

Data and Tasha Yar did the nasty?

No, I just saw that one; that was "The Naked Now", which is almost exactly, but not quite, like the Naked Now in TOS.

[hajario]

Cite that Data doesn't speak English?

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_Standard

Hmm. I didn't realize that. OK, they all did speak the same language but Data was physically unable to communicate one tiny subset of the words even though he was mega-brilliant, could understand those words when others said them and infinitely capable of learning. Lore meanwhile was nearly as brilliant but couldn't stop himself from saying them.

[FordTaurusSHO94]

I tried to do this with DS9 a little while ago, which I always remembered as the "good" Star Trek series, and I just couldn't make it through. It was rocky from the beginning, but once the Klingons showed up, I just couldn't take it any more. Seriously, is there any military force in the whole of sci-fidom more incompetent than the Klingon Empire? The big fight scene when the Klingons attack DS9 features them beaming aboard the station, attacking the crew with knives, for fucks sake, and still getting their asses handed to them by unarmed humans.

That was about where I gave up on the show. I watched another three or four episodes, but my heart wasn't in it any more.

Really? That was where I thought the series eclispsed the rest of the Trek series and never let up!

[Bryan Ekers]

But from season 2 on, TNG grew to become an incredible series. Absolutely shaped my young mind in ways more good than bad, and it became my ruler against which I compare pretty much all Sci-Fi.

It had its moments, I admit, but "incredible" isn't an adjective that would have occurred to me.

[mlees]

Hmm. I didn't realize that. OK, they all did speak the same language but Data was physically unable to communicate one tiny subset of the words even though he was mega-brilliant, could understand those words when others said them and infinitely capable of learning. Lore meanwhile was nearly as brilliant but couldn't stop himself from saying them.

Pretty much. That's why I think he was designed to have these quirks. It's not a flaw. It's a fingerprint. :)

[Odesio]

Seriously, is there any military force in the whole of sci-fidom more incompetent than the Klingon Empire? The big fight scene when the Klingons attack DS9 features them beaming aboard the station, attacking the crew with knives, for fucks sake, and still getting their asses handed to them by unarmed humans.


I liked DS9 but Klingons attempting boarding actions using knives as their primary weapons was just mind bogglingly stupid.

[Cat Whisperer]

I'll agree with everyone else that Season One of TNG was almost painful to watch, but it gets much, much better.

Watch for Picard being a stuffed-shirt, barking orders at everyone and being all irritated much of the time in the first season (and Troi being a useless git). I think the TNG drinking game is take a shot every time Troi looks like she's about to cry and says, "I feel X..." and another shot every time Worf says, "I submit that our only option is to fight!" :)

Hey, speaking of TNG, they're having a cast reunion at our Calgary Sci-Fi Expo in April! (http://www.calgaryexpo.com/) :D

[mlees]

I liked DS9 but Klingons attempting boarding actions using knives as their primary weapons was just mind bogglingly stupid.

It's a traditional holdover from the days of the "Great Tribble Hunt".

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Great_Tribble_Hunt

[Simplicio]

I liked DS9 but Klingons attempting boarding actions using knives as their primary weapons was just mind bogglingly stupid.

They did have pistol type weapons as well, so they didn't just bring knives. And in the close quarters of a spaceship, would presumably bring some knives with you, though you probably wouldn't make as much use with them as the Klingons do. But then, the show establishes pretty well that the Klingons are really into anachronistic weaponry, whether it makes sense or not.

[Miller]

They did have pistol type weapons as well, so they didn't just bring knives.

Which was another complaint: they keep transporting over to DS9, and then drawing their guns, only to cut cut down by the Feds before they can get a shot off. Draw your guns before you step onto the transporter platform, doofus!

[Simplicio]

Which was another complaint: they keep transporting over to DS9, and then drawing their guns, only to cut cut down by the Feds before they can get a shot off. Draw your guns before you step onto the transporter platform, doofus!

Bah, thinking like that is why you'll never go to Stovikor.

[monstro]

Tasha's death was the lamest of all time. So was the funeral. How likely is it that she records her own funeral speech, conveniently addressing all the main characters, no matter how unrelated to security they are, but mentioning no one else? Wesley was more important to her than the people she trained and work with every day? Come on now.

And that monster-thing that killed her, that magically knows English? That has psychological issues that only Troy can handle? Incredibly lame, man. REAL lame.

I did like all the space-time problems they encountered, even though after awhile they become a little repetitious. The biggest WTF! moment was when Jordi was out of phase with everyone else and becomes invisible. OK, he's in another dimension. He can walk through doors and walls. He's like a ghost. I can buy it. But HOW IS HE FREAKIN' ABLE TO WALK! He should be falling through the floor! It doesn't make sense! (I don't know what season this episode was. Doesn't matter. It was still crazy.)

The episode where they are all drunk and horny was a bad one too.

[Simplicio]

Which was another complaint: they keep transporting over to DS9, and then drawing their guns, only to cut cut down by the Feds before they can get a shot off. Draw your guns before you step onto the transporter platform, doofus!

Alright, descending into total nerd-dom here:

Here's the scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V_tp5C27TQ). The klingons do actually beam over with pistols drawn. There's a lag between when they beam in and when they can start moving though (I think this is actually established in a TNG episode as a reason the transporters aren't used for combat more), so they get cut down pretty easily. And in the first half of the fight they use their pistols, until halfway through both they and the Feds apparently totally forget about firearms for some reason and just go for swords and fists.

So not as silly as people are making it out as, though still needs a certain amount of suspension of disbelief. Star Trek in general was always pretty weak on action scene choreography.

Alright, I think that pretty much used up my geeking-out quota for the week.

[Miller]

Bah, thinking like that is why you'll never go to Stovikor.

Yes, the best way to avoid dying in battle is to not fight like a Klingon. :D

But you're right about the weapons - other than the guy in the middle at 3:50 in the clip you posted, they all have weapons in their hands when they're fully materialized.

[Odesio]

So not as silly as people are making it out as, though still needs a certain amount of suspension of disbelief. Star Trek in general was always pretty weak on action scene choreography.


I watched your link. It's just as mind bogglingly stupid as I remember.

[hajario]

I did like all the space-time problems they encountered, even though after awhile they become a little repetitious. The biggest WTF! moment was when Jordi was out of phase with everyone else and becomes invisible. OK, he's in another dimension. He can walk through doors and walls. He's like a ghost. I can buy it. But HOW IS HE FREAKIN' ABLE TO WALK! He should be falling through the floor! It doesn't make sense! (I don't know what season this episode was. Doesn't matter. It was still crazy.)

That was the worst one of all. Sometimes he can put his head into equipment to see into it and other times he can lean against it. They kill the bad guy by punching him and he flies through a wall to the outside. Did the writers even give a shit?

It does appear like I gave up early in the series although I do recall seeing the first episode where Riker has a beard.

[Illuminatiprimus]

I did like all the space-time problems they encountered, even though after awhile they become a little repetitious. The biggest WTF! moment was when Jordi was out of phase with everyone else and becomes invisible. OK, he's in another dimension. He can walk through doors and walls. He's like a ghost. I can buy it. But HOW IS HE FREAKIN' ABLE TO WALK! He should be falling through the floor! It doesn't make sense! (I don't know what season this episode was. Doesn't matter. It was still crazy.)To nitpick further, how could he and Ro breathe (given that that requires oxygen molecules to pass through the membrane of your lungs into your bloodstream) or hear (which requires sound to interact with your ear drum)? Shortly after becoming phased they should have suffocated whilst drifting out of the ship and into space, due to not being able to anchor to any surface, as you mention.

The Naked Now was all kinds of stupid due to Data getting infected with the virus driving everyone else crazy, even though he's a machine. Furthermore they have episodes where there is the issue of disease contamination and Data makes clear he can't contract organic diseases (and no-one says "but didn't you get sick years ago along with everyone else?".

That all said I agree that TNG is a great show (from S2 onwards) and when they encounter the Borg it really gets edge of seat!

[Cat Whisperer]

<snip>
The episode where they are all drunk and horny was a bad one too.
But it gave rise to one of the best exchanges of the series!

Riker - "Are you functional?"
Data - "Fully." (With cockeyed grin on his face, after having a naked encounter with Tasha Yar.) :D

[MsWhatsit]

I liked that even though the episode was patently ridiculous and nonsensical, they didn't just completely forget about the Data/Yar thing. I remember that later on, when they were having that tribunal or whatever to determine whether Data was a sentient being with rights, it was revealed that he'd kept a little hologram of Tasha Yar with him in his personal effects. I thought that was a nice little touch.

[Acsenray]

I can't believe how much the writers jizz in their pants about Westley.

I hate to have to do this, 'Mika, but: It's Wesley. Wesley Crusher. Not Westley.

Same with the guy on Buffy: It's Wesley Wyndam-Pryce.

[mlees]

I hate to have to do this, 'Mika, but: It's Wesley. Wesley Crusher. Not Westley.

Same with the guy on Buffy: It's Wesley Wyndam-Pryce.

Wesley lover.

[silenus]

ST:TNG suffered from the writer's strike their first season and an excess of Roddenberry. After those obstacles were gone, it hit its stride. There were still clunkers, but the over-all quality went way up. Even the stupid episodes with Alexander playing cowboy with Worf on the holodeck were mildly entertaining.

[Anaamika]

I hate to have to do this, 'Mika, but: It's Wesley. Wesley Crusher. Not Westley.

Same with the guy on Buffy: It's Wesley Wyndam-Pryce.

I don't watch Buffy, but I will absolutely concede to your point about Wesley/Westley.

Anyway, I see that everyone has already gotten it, and I should have said it, but I don't mind spoilers. I have vague memories of most of the important plot points, anyway.

Yesterday's episode really made me uncomfortable. It was called Code of Honor, and it was about this alien planet that kidnapped Tasha Yar to be the leader's wife. Ugh - a relatively primitive planet full of BLACK people that have multiple wives and who decide kidnapping the whitest, blondest woman was the way to go, and then refuse to give her back without a duel between the two women? Made me very uncomfortable...and they still had to shoehorn Wesley in somehow!
I actually skipped the scenes with him in them. Anyway, it was such a tribal view of blacks I was surprised to see that black people even acted in it (but then, everybody's gotta eat).

But I was happy to see Picard start coming into his own. I always liked Picard because of his diplomatic ways of dealing with things, and of the way he could twist a sentence until you weren't sure where he was going with it. And he had a lot of those lines here.

But oh my god the girl fight was terrible! They didn't even try, with those stupid weapons that apparently can fly off your hands and kill someone in the audience. :D

[Patty O'Furniture]

Do they ever explain why Picard makes that lazy hand wave every single time he says "engage"? It looks like he's trying to cast a spell or something (Magic missile probably).

[silenus]

I don't watch Buffy, but I will absolutely concede to your point about Wesley/Westley.

Anyway, I see that everyone has already gotten it, and I should have said it, but I don't mind spoilers. I have vague memories of most of the important plot points, anyway.

Yesterday's episode really made me uncomfortable. It was called Code of Honor, and it was about this alien planet that kidnapped Tasha Yar to be the leader's wife. Ugh - a relatively primitive planet full of BLACK people that have multiple wives and who decide kidnapping the whitest, blondest woman was the way to go, and then refuse to give her back without a duel between the two women? Made me very uncomfortable...and they still had to shoehorn Wesley in somehow!
I actually skipped the scenes with him in them. Anyway, it was such a tribal view of blacks I was surprised to see that black people even acted in it (but then, everybody's gotta eat).

But I was happy to see Picard start coming into his own. I always liked Picard because of his diplomatic ways of dealing with things, and of the way he could twist a sentence until you weren't sure where he was going with it. And he had a lot of those lines here.

But oh my god the girl fight was terrible! They didn't even try, with those stupid weapons that apparently can fly off your hands and kill someone in the audience. :D


You really have to read Wil Wheaton's take on the episode (http://www.aoltv.com/2008/04/28/star-trek-the-next-generation-code-of-honor/).

[MsWhatsit]

Code of Honor is one of my least favorite ST episodes of all time, across all series. (To be fair, there are large chunks of Voyager and Enterpise that I have not seen.)

[Anaamika]

You really have to read Wil Wheaton's take on the episode (http://www.aoltv.com/2008/04/28/star-trek-the-next-generation-code-of-honor/).

Reading it now! Thanks. :) I'd also forgotten about the very uncomfortable situation of Tasha liking her kidnapper. Rape is love, don't you know?


Oh my, this article is positively making me snort with laughter. I'm trying to hide it here at work because I'd never live it down if people knew what I was reading.

[Anaamika]

Oh god, now I started reading his synopsis of Encounter at Farpoint! I really need to not read this at work; I have tears in my eyes.

*goes back to reading more*

[Sister Vigilante]

Yesterday's episode really made me uncomfortable. It was called Code of Honor, and it was about this alien planet that kidnapped Tasha Yar to be the leader's wife. Ugh - a relatively primitive planet full of BLACK people that have multiple wives and who decide kidnapping the whitest, blondest woman was the way to go, and then refuse to give her back without a duel between the two women? Made me very uncomfortable...and they still had to shoehorn Wesley in somehow!
I actually skipped the scenes with him in them. Anyway, it was such a tribal view of blacks I was surprised to see that black people even acted in it (but then, everybody's gotta eat). Amazingly, an episode of Stargate mirrors this almost exactly. Except it was a planet full of Mongols, their leader kidnaps Sam (the blonde female), and she has to fight him herself for her freedom. And she kicks his ass.

[MsWhatsit]

Oh my, this article is positively making me snort with laughter. I'm trying to hide it here at work because I'd never live it down if people knew what I was reading.

This is gold:

The party is a high class function. Food is served, and Picard's stone cold munchin'. Tasha walks in at the end of the show, and sits next to Lutan , who's sportin' a really sweet 'fro. She's dressed in yellow, she says "Hello, beam me the hell out of here you fine fellow." Picard does his best to incite the groove, but Lutan won't let him bust a move.

[Anaamika]

Amazingly, an episode of Stargate mirrors this almost exactly. Except it was a planet full of Mongols, their leader kidnaps Sam (the blonde female), and she has to fight him herself for her freedom. And she kicks his ass.

I saw it. I watched the first half dozen episodes of Stargate, but when I found myself shouting "QUARANTINE! PUT THEM IN FUCKING QUARANTINE YOU ASSHOLES! DON'T LET THEM WANDER ALL OVER INFECTING EVERYBODY!"

I felt I needed to stop watching.

[hajario]

What about the one where they are sent to engage a planet and bring them into the fold? The last ship that tried to do that was blown to smithereens by the planet folk for insulting them.

You see, the people of this planet need to be greeted in a very specific way in this weird bird chirp language. If you don't do that they kill you and all several hundred of your shipmates. If I were in charge, I'd let that planet of sociopaths languish. If they were that strategic, I'd make sure my best in the Galaxy shields were working or maybe just blow the fuck out of them for destroying a starship whose captain said hello slightly the wrong way.

Luckily, Picard manages to save the day and it's a testament to Patrick Stewart's acting that he played the scene without rolling his eyes. If only Shakespearean actors were better paid.

[Bosstone]

I saw it. I watched the first half dozen episodes of Stargate, but when I found myself shouting "QUARANTINE! PUT THEM IN FUCKING QUARANTINE YOU ASSHOLES! DON'T LET THEM WANDER ALL OVER INFECTING EVERYBODY!"

I felt I needed to stop watching.I love Stargate SG-1, but I mostly pick and choose episodes here and there. One day about a year ago I decided I should watch the show all the way through. I watched the pilot: excellent. Then the very first, the very first episode after that was the sexist Mongol one. I stopped watching at 15 minutes in and couldn't continue.

I still like the show, but watching episodes in order was clearly going to be hazardous.

[Sister Vigilante]

In their defense, they got better. They lasted longer than any other continuously running scifi show (Doctor Who wasn't continuous for the length of its run). I think the only reason they stopped the show was because the actors fees had gotten way too high so they started over with lesser well known people (Atlantis, etc.) who they could pay less.

[Anaamika]

I love Stargate SG-1, but I mostly pick and choose episodes here and there. One day about a year ago I decided I should watch the show all the way through. I watched the pilot: excellent. Then the very first, the very first episode after that was the sexist Mongol one. I stopped watching at 15 minutes in and couldn't continue.

I still like the show, but watching episodes in order was clearly going to be hazardous.

If you ever feel like it I'd sure appreciate a list of "must watch" episodes for the show.

[Bosstone]

If you ever feel like it I'd sure appreciate a list of "must watch" episodes for the show.Keeping this post short for a variety of reasons:

- Window of Opportunity is a fantastic one-off episode, possibly the best I've seen in any sci-fi show barring Firefly. It's season 4 (episode 6), so the characters have all had time to gel and get familiar with each other, but it's not connected to any long-running arcs. The premise is entertaining, the writing is good, the comedic bits are funny as hell, and if you're familiar with the characters, the climax is actually quite emotional.

- Also off the top of my head is Proving Ground (S5 E13).

- Wormhole X-Treme (S5 E12) is also downright hilarious, although since it's more about making fun of the show itself, it helps to save that for later.

I actually tend to enjoy filler one-offs that are more for letting the actors play off each other than the epic multi-ep arcs, so those are what I focus on.

[Jonathan Chance]

My 11 year old girl and I are doing this as well. Yay for Netflix! We've done all of Enterprise (surprisingly good overall), TOS (surprisingly, laughably BAD in many places), and now we just finished season one of TNG. We call it The Star Trek Project and we have until October 2013 to get through the end of Voyager.

All the way or bust, baby. All the way.

But boy, some of those early NextGen episodes are...less than hoped for. Let's leave it at that.

[Illuminatiprimus]

Jonathan - you owe it to yourself to watch TNG in sequence, then graduate on to DS9. You'll thank me later :)

[Anaamika]

Keeping this post short for a variety of reasons:

- Window of Opportunity is a fantastic one-off episode, possibly the best I've seen in any sci-fi show barring Firefly. It's season 4 (episode 6), so the characters have all had time to gel and get familiar with each other, but it's not connected to any long-running arcs. The premise is entertaining, the writing is good, the comedic bits are funny as hell, and if you're familiar with the characters, the climax is actually quite emotional.

- Also off the top of my head is Proving Ground (S5 E13).

- Wormhole X-Treme (S5 E12) is also downright hilarious, although since it's more about making fun of the show itself, it helps to save that for later.

I actually tend to enjoy filler one-offs that are more for letting the actors play off each other than the epic multi-ep arcs, so those are what I focus on.

Thank you very much!

Last night it was "The Last Outpost", which was actually a pretty good episode, even with the Ferengi literally acting like monkeys. But Riker had some amazing scenes and lines, and there was a moment of real, genuine tension between Crusher and Picard (when they first wake up from oxygen deprivation and she called him Jean for a second). The scene of Data getting caught in the Chinese finger trap was brilliantly done, what with Geordi and Riker's amused reactions and Picard's slightly irrascible reaction (what have you done - get unstuck!)

Even in this episode they felt obligated to mention Wesley but I can't find any fault in it. When the crew is possibly dying of oxygen deprivation it seems fair to ask the doctor how her only son is doing; it's the mark of a good captain to check on everybody (as he was doing when he asked).

The Ferengi were rather animalistic, and not how I remember Quark at all, but he's from DS9 isn't he? I presume things have changed by then. But you really started to get a feel for what both Data and Riker are going to do with their roles when given a little room.

[3waygeek]

Do they ever explain why Picard makes that lazy hand wave every single time he says "engage"? It looks like he's trying to cast a spell or something (Magic missile probably).
I always thought it was some kind of French thing, like the Gallic shrug. Just to remind us that Picard is French -- you certainly can't tell by his speech.

[Anaamika]

I always thought it was some kind of French thing, like the Gallic shrug. Just to remind us that Picard is French -- you certainly can't tell by his speech.

He did say "Merde" in this episode, which made me smile.

[Tom Tildrum]

Jonathan - you owe it to yourself to watch TNG in sequence, then graduate on to DS9. You'll thank me later :)

But stop there. GO NO FURTHER.

[teela brown]

He did say "Merde" in this episode, which made me smile.

Did he? I thought I was remembering that utterance from another episode, where

Geordi and Data screwed up by letting the holodeck construct a Dr. Moriarty who was smart enough to outwit Data

[Anaamika]

Did he? I thought I was remembering that utterance from another episode, where

Geordi and Data screwed up by letting the holodeck construct a Dr. Moriarty who was smart enough to outwit Data

No, he said it very softly during this episode. I mean he may have said it in the other one, too, I haven't gotten there yet.

[Bootis]

I can't believe how much the writers jizz in their pants about Westley.

Worf too! Literally! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQQHJukwsLs) (Maybe NSFW? Can clips from ST:TNG really be NSFW though?)

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

The Ferengi were rather animalistic, and not how I remember Quark at all, but he's from DS9 isn't he? I presume things have changed by then.

Yes, the first appearance of the Ferengi was a complete misstep. The original idea was for them to be the new big scary enemy of the Federation, but since, as you say, they resembled a bunch of monkeys, no one could take them seriously, so they were quickly cleaned up and relegated to comic relief.

Did he? I thought I was remembering that utterance from another episode

I'm sure Picard says merde at least twice over the course of the series. There's also that jaunty French marching song he warbles a couple of times. ("Auprès de Ma Blonde" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aupr%C3%A8s_de_ma_blonde))

[Anaamika]

Found this:


Despite Picard having been born in France, he had a distinct English accent. According to TNG: "Code of Honor", by the 24th century, French was considered an archaic language, but Picard may have spoken French with his family during childhood and he still remembered French children's songs like "Frère Jacques," as mentioned in TNG: "Disaster" (and played by him on the Ressikan flute in TNG: "The Inner Light"). He also occasionally cursed "merde" in times of stress, such as in "The Last Outpost" and "Elementary, Dear Data", and spoke at least basic French ("11001001").

[Acsenray]

In Generations, Picard's fantasy life included an "English Christmas."

[Simplicio]

In Generations, Picard's fantasy life included an "English Christmas."

And he likes tea and Shakespeare. Obviously French people can like those things, but for a character that was supposed to be French, they seemed to go out of their way to give him a bunch of British interests on top of his accent.

I never got why they didn't just give the character a British name. I guess Captain Nigel just sounded less cool.

[Anaamika]

Hey, one of my fantasies is a nice old English Christmas! I mean, I agree they gave him a lot of British interests, but that's what I'm saying; characters can have a lot of interests out of their race - I have a ton of British interests myself.

Of course, that doesn't explain why he doesn't have many French interests...but at this age I have very few Indian interests and yet firmly hold on to my heritage.

[Malden Capell]

I'm doing the exact same thing! My fiancee and I started about a month ago (well, did original series before Xmas and then the movies). She's not seen much of it before. I think she's enjoying it - she's normally very difficult to impress.

[Anaamika]

And I should add, I do still swear in Hindi if you catch me just right. :)

Hi, Malden!

[Malden Capell]

Hi, Anaamika :)

They do have Picard speak French on occasion (although I smirked on a very early episode when someone reference French as being a forgotten language or something like that). And I remember an episode where he sings French folk songs.

[Miller]

I'm kind of amused by how people always harp on Jean-Luc Picard having a British accent, but no one ever complains about the equally-Gallic named Geordi LaForge having an American accent.

[Dallas Jones]

Do they ever explain why Picard makes that lazy hand wave every single time he says "engage"? It looks like he's trying to cast a spell or something (Magic missile probably).

Well, there is a name for the standing up and pulling down on your shirt thing.

It's called the "Picard Maneuver." Because the tops of the uniform had a way of creeping up when you sat down.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Picard%20maneuver

[Anaamika]

I'm kind of amused by how people always harp on Jean-Luc Picard having a British accent, but no one ever complains about the equally-Gallic named Geordi LaForge having an American accent.

It's not the same, I submit. It's not like Geordi talks about his past or swears in Celtic or Gallic or whatever.

Plus, the French accent is kind of ridiculous except on a really hot girl*. And I say this knowing the Indian accent is far more ridiculous and really good for nothing but humor and defusing tense situations.

*Ok, Patrick Stewart is one of the few men that could pull it off and make it sexy too.

[Acsenray]

I'm kind of amused by how people always harp on Jean-Luc Picard having a British accent, but no one ever complains about the equally-Gallic named Geordi LaForge having an American accent.

I just know you're whooshing.

[Zebra]

Last night I watched about the first 20 minutes of "Encounter at Farpoint" in HD.


It looked really good.

I liked seeing O'Brien before he had a name.


But my God, it was horrible

[friedo]

The Ferengi were rather animalistic, and not how I remember Quark at all, but he's from DS9 isn't he? I presume things have changed by then. But you really started to get a feel for what both Data and Riker are going to do with their roles when given a little room.

That is indeed Armin Shimmerman playing the monkey-like Ferengi Letek. Quark was an entirely different Ferengi character played by the same guy.

[Sister Vigilante]

As I recall, Colm Meaney (O'Brien) read the script one day and was furious at whoever this "OBrien" was that was replacing him. "It's okay, they gave you a name," they replied.

Was Encounter at Farpoint the one where they had some of the men walking around in miniskirts?

[Acsenray]

Yes, in early episodes some male crewmembers wore skirts. And the male officers' dress uniform was a tunic-type thing that looks like a minidress.

[MsWhatsit]

Yes, in early episodes some male crewmembers wore skirts. And the male officers' dress uniform was a tunic-type thing that looks like a minidress.

The infamous skant. (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Skant#Skant)

[Tom Tildrum]

The infamous skant. (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Skant#Skant)

Heh. That looks like (famously maladjusted) Lieutenant Barclay.

[MsWhatsit]

Heh. That looks like (famously maladjusted) Lieutenant Barclay.

There's a slight resemblance, but if you look at the larger-size photo, you can see it's not him. (I always want to call that guy Lieutenant Murdock, thanks to Dwight Schultz's other famous TV role.)

[BigT]

IIRC, Lore told Data this. "I'm superior to you. Nyahh nyahh."

But Lore may have been lying.

I think lying is a bit too far. It just depends on your point of view. It is quite clear that Data was specifically made to not have the emotions that Lore was capable of. It seems that giving Lore emotions is what let him go crazy.

On the other hand, it appears that Lore did not have any ethical subroutines to keep him in check like Data did, as we see in one episode where Data shuts that off and he becomes nearly exactly like Lore. Then again, the reason Data shut it off was that he was temporarily given emotions, so maybe that was why Lore was able to override his.

Either way, Lore is superior in that he has something more, but inferior in that he went genocidal.

As for the contraction quirk: just because it manifests itself as such in English doesn't mean it doesn't manifest in other ways in other languages. (I think the original idea was that he had trouble with informal speech or slang, but people just focused on one part.) Whether this was an intentional flaw by Soong to make people feel better, or just something that went wrong in his development that was not considered a big enough problem to start over, I don't know. I do know the fake looking skin was to make people feel more comfortable, and not because there wasn't better skin-like materials.

[Acsenray]

As for the contraction quirk: just because it manifests itself as such in English doesn't mean it doesn't manifest in other ways in other languages. (I think the original idea was that he had trouble with informal speech or slang, but people just focused on one part.)

What I know about the contraction quirk was that it was very inconsistent. Data often did use contractions in his speech.

[Anaamika]

Last night was "Where No One has Gone Before", which introduced some interesting concepts and then ran away from them as fast the episode possibly could.

First of all we get this smug, arrogant, egotistical prick to deal with. And he comes with an alien friend - who surprise! loves Wesley. But the egotistical prick did not like Wesley, which made me marginally like him better.

I thought it was really amazing when they traveled 2.7 million light years out of the galaxy, and then even further, into another dimension? Hard to tell. And an alien that can channel thought into energy? Bring it on!

But then we decide to grind to a screeching halt as the Traveler looks for beings "like Wesley" and Picard should nurture Wesley's amazing talent, and then - and I skipped the ending five minutes with Wesley, so I had to read about this one on Wiki - Picard promoted Wesley, a teenager, to acting ensign. :smack: :smack:

All that aside, it was touching to see Picard suddenly grow kind and affectionate with his mother, and of course the idea of the "dream world" - the Outer Rim - was absolutely fascinating.

From Will Wheaton's review:

Up on the bridge, Kosinski whizzes on everything, and humps Picard's leg, before Picard whacks him on the nose with a newspaper and sends him back to engineering to get them back home, but things get crazygonuts, and the assistant begins to phase out of reality again.

Kosinski is the arrogant prick.


Anyway Wesley gave this episode a much higher rating than I would have. I still found Wesley as annoying as ever - why is he even on screen - but I admit I did like the background stuff, and the special effects are still surprisingly cool-looking.

[mlees]

The infamous skant. (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Skant#Skant)

In Troi's photo, why is there a "pixelated" or blurred out effect between her thighs? :confused:

[Acsenray]

I think that's the glare from the lights showing through between her legs.

[mlees]

I think that's the glare from the lights showing through between her legs.

I guess. She's standing on a lit transporter pad... I think. It may be that light reflecting off her thighs in an odd way.

[Acsenray]

I guess. She's standing on a lit transporter pad... I think. It may be that light reflecting off her thighs in an odd way.

I think it's the lighted wall behind her.

[Bosstone]

I think it's the lighted wall behind her.It is. The lighted wall behind her is the exact same shade as her inner thighs, which confuses the eyes.

[Mr. Excellent]

I liked DS9 but Klingons attempting boarding actions using knives as their primary weapons was just mind bogglingly stupid.

In fairness, there are some not-crazy reasons to avoid using firearms in boarding an alien spacecraft. You don't want to accidentally breach the hull, after all, and since it's an alien spacecraft, you don't necessarily know how much punishment the hull can take. Cardassians aren't all that exotic in the TNG-verse, so it's possible the Klingons actually *do* have a pretty good idea of what they can get away with in terms of weapons fire on DS9 - but their training probably discourages weapons fire in boarding actions, and sticking to one's training under stress is a military virtue in itself.

What I never understood is why no one ever, ever puts on a pressure suit during combat. You're in *space*, for god's sake - the other guy is trying to poke holes in your hull. Exposure to vacuum isn't just possible, it's likely. And during a boarding action - if you're in pressure suits and the other guy isn't, you win.

[mlees]

I think it's the lighted wall behind her.

But we don't see the same effect anywhere else on her body. Also, the curve of the thighs are towards the camera, and thus should be in shadow if they were back-lit. :confused:

[silenus]

For that matter, why not do some selective breaching of the hull before boarding? It would certainly make the defenders a much easier target. Pop a few holes in the target, then transport a squad in with suits and mop up the survivors. But I guess that's too logical and prosaic for Star Trek.

mlees - that's because the light on her thighs is coming from below, and is blocked by her uniform and fat ass. :D

[mlees]

In fairness, there are some not-crazy reasons to avoid using firearms in boarding an alien spacecraft. You don't want to accidentally breach the hull, after all, and since it's an alien spacecraft, you don't necessarily know how much punishment the hull can take. Cardassians aren't all that exotic in the TNG-verse, so it's possible the Klingons actually *do* have a pretty good idea of what they can get away with in terms of weapons fire on DS9 - but their training probably discourages weapons fire in boarding actions, and sticking to one's training under stress is a military virtue in itself.

What I never understood is why no one ever, ever puts on a pressure suit during combat. You're in *space*, for god's sake - the other guy is trying to poke holes in your hull. Exposure to vacuum isn't just possible, it's likely. And during a boarding action - if you're in pressure suits and the other guy isn't, you win.

To be fair, the TNG+ era seems to engage in liberal use of "containment forcefields".

Fanwanking: The major spacefaring races posess (and share) emergency life support system technologies that include self contained forcefield projectors (as in independent of main power, and equipped with their own sensors) that attempt to seal off hull breaches. They may be so idiot proof that they don't need vaccsuits much.

[Ranchoth]

I rather enjoy SFDebris' video reviews (http://sfdebris.com/startrek.asp) on the Trek series'—insightful when it comes to the better episodes, and utterly hillarious when he gets to the bad ones (like much of Voyager (http://sfdebris.com/startrek/v832.asp) and Enterprise (http://sfdebris.com/startrek/e130.asp)). :D

[Mr. Excellent]

And he likes tea and Shakespeare. Obviously French people can like those things, but for a character that was supposed to be French, they seemed to go out of their way to give him a bunch of British interests on top of his accent.

I never got why they didn't just give the character a British name. I guess Captain Nigel just sounded less cool.

If memory serves, another Doper has suggested that something very, very bad happened to France between the 20th and 24th centuries.

[silenus]

You mean like losing the 100-second War in 2286?

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

I never got why they didn't just give the character a British name. I guess Captain Nigel just sounded less cool.


"John Luck Pickard? I have a delivery here for John Luck Pickard."

[Anaamika]

So...


Over the weekend I watched half of "Lonely Among us". Only half because this was an incredibly boring episode, and I just didn't care what happened next. I couldn't even watch it to be entertained by how bad it was.

Yesterday I watched Justice, which while not great, was much better. My goodness, a heck of a lot of blondes in terrible wigs, though! And the terrible shorts for the men! Ugh. Too much time spent on Wesley as always, and not enough on the core message of "justice".

"I'm with Starfleet. We don't lie." What an awful line.

And it was very annoying that Beverly Crusher was able to march right into the bridge and apparently whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine to Picard about her son. Does she think he's going to be like "Oh well, fuck it, that's another teen down, let's move on?" Leave him to die? Total lack of professionalism and it really irked me.

From Will Wheaton's review:

"Once there, he shows her "god" (this is, quite honestly, a nice little homage to the original series. Whenever Captain Kirk took a hot babe back to the space ship, he showed her god, too. Sometimes, he showed her an entire pantheon of gods. And he never called her back, baby, because that's just how he rolled, leaving broken hearts all over the galaxy. Awww yeah.)"

[chrisk]

I liked the girls from blonde-world in 'Justice' :D But even way back then, it didn't take me long to spot the giant plot hole in terms of how the Prime Directive is addressed in the plot:

"No, we won't beam Wesley up from your holding cell to our ship, even though we can and you're wink-wink-nudge-nudge saying that you can't stop us, because THAT would be interfering in the development of your society. But we can't abandon Wesley to his death either.

"So what will I do? I will stay here and argue with you about your philosophy of justice until you agree that your entire society's approach to crime and punishment is wrong and you agree to hand Wesley back willingly."

(No, that couldn't possibly interfere in the development of your society! What are you talking about?)

[Anaamika]

I submit the very fact of appearing on their planet is a violation of the Prime Directive. Isn't even giving their inventors and thinkers an idea that there's this whole universe out there an interference?

[grude]

In Voyager Janeway upholds the prime directive by destroying a space station that has been slowly being overun by the natives for years, they have finally gained the upper hand and victory is inevitable. So she blasts the thing to bits, because it somehow upholds the prime directive AND the natives are distasteful culturally(to Janeway at least).

:confused:Has the prime directive ever made sense?

[hajario]

:confused:Has the prime directive ever made sense?

It's not as if we got the same courtesy what with the pyramids and crop circles and such.

[Shakes]

I submit the very fact of appearing on their planet is a violation of the Prime Directive. Isn't even giving their inventors and thinkers an idea that there's this whole universe out there an interference?

In Voyager Janeway upholds the prime directive by destroying a space station that has been slowly being overun by the natives for years, they have finally gained the upper hand and victory is inevitable. So she blasts the thing to bits, because it somehow upholds the prime directive AND the natives are distasteful culturally(to Janeway at least).

:confused:Has the prime directive ever made sense?

If I remember correctly the prime directive doesn't apply to warp capable species.

The one with Wesley, I think they were more concerned with "Following local laws" rather than breaking the prime directive.

I could be wrong. It's been years since I watched the show.

[chrisk]

If I remember correctly the prime directive doesn't apply to warp capable species.

The one with Wesley, I think they were more concerned with "Following local laws" rather than breaking the prime directive.

I could be wrong. It's been years since I watched the show.

I think that there are different levels to the interpretations of the Prime Directive. If they're pre-warp and pre-first contact, then the directive is 'hands off, do not let them know that we're here.'

For the Edo in 'Justice', they were just warp-capable and used to visitors from star-faring races dropping by for a visit, but not nearly at the technological level of the Federation. So you could interact with them, but very circumspectly - avoiding being a jerk putting yourself on their level as much as practical, or at least that's how I can best relate to the inconsistencies at this level. You can act as a peer, but not as a superior race telling them how to do things.

And then, there are cultures like the Klingons, who are really at technological par with the Federation, but at least a trace of the Prime Directive lingers in their philosophy of non-interference with internal affairs - like in the 'Klingon Civil War' arc - the Federation can't move starships into Klingon territory and fight on the side of the Supreme Chancellor, even though their alliance is with him and not with the rebels - but Picard can run a blocade on the Klingon-Romulan border and keep the Duras sisters from getting supplies from their Romulan allies.

[Dread Pirate Jimbo]

I believe we're all missing the point, which is that the writers of TNG missed a major opportunity to do something good in this episode when they chose not to have Wesley executed. God, that little twerp was annoying!

:)

[Mr. Excellent]

Ok, Patrick Stewart is one of the few men that could pull it off and make it sexy too.

Actually, I seem to recall that they did some screen-testing with Stewart trying a French accent, and he couldn't pull it off.

[Anaamika]

I believe we're all missing the point, which is that the writers of TNG missed a major opportunity to do something good in this episode when they chose not to have Wesley executed. God, that little twerp was annoying!

:)

It's not even just that Wesley is annoying. It's everyone else fellating him constantly. UGH!

[Anaamika]

Yes, I'm back. I'm still watching, admittedly slower than I would have if the show was really sucking me in. But Babylon 5 started out even slower than this.

I watched "Haven" and "Hide and Q" over the last few days. (My life has been very busy!)

Hide and Q was incredibly predictable. I was surprised to see Riker grow drunk with power so quickly; they could have at least made it believable. And he's blaming Picard for the promise that he made? Not very honorable at all.

I liked the bits with Picard on the ship and nothing working around him...pretty eerie.

I did not like Tasha crying. WTF?

And too much lecturing!

Haven:

This was actually kind of fun, even if it was a soap opera type of episode. The bickering was amusing though. The Riker thing made my jaw drop - so he has unlimited access to the holodrive and he decides he's going to summon up two girls playing harp together? Even I can think of better things than that!

But overall as I said a very entertaining episode, with Majel Roddenberry playing Lxwana for all she's worth, embarrasing Picard and everyone else in a charming way that would drive me batty if she were my mother.

Oh, and LURCH!

[jackdavinci]

No mention of skewered Wesley?

[Mijin]

Can someone explain the Wesley thing to me please?

For me the first couple of series are partially ruined by everyone snapping at wesley and not listening to him, even though he's always correct when he cries wolf. I feel sorry for him.
Is the hate because he's too perfect? Because the same is true of many of the characters (e.g. when did jordi ever show any weakness at anything)?

----------------------

Just to add, the first series are pretty bad in retrospect .
Last ep I saw, they detected an unknown kind of ship approaching *cue super dramatic music* Then for like a minute everyone's just looking at each other with shocked expressions "OMG not...a ship!"

[a35362]

I guess Gene Roddenberry wrote Wesley as a "Mary Sue" (or "Marty Stu") sort of character -- one who represents the writer and is perfect in all things, better than the adults. That's always going to be annoying. Viewers dumped on Wesley (and Wil Wheaton, the young actor who played him) WAY out of proportion to what the character deserved (not to mention the actor, who was only doing the job he was hired to do).

[Great Antibob]

Can someone explain the Wesley thing to me please?


He's a completely unnecessary character that serves to show just how badly written the show was at times.

You have one of the most advanced starships in the Federation, crewed presumably by a bunch of up and comers, and they are constantly one-upped by a teenager. That doesn't make much sense. Also the fact that they need a teenager (no matter how talented) to get them out of scrapes just means the Federation is a bunch of dolts with an occasional bright ray of hope, except when Wesley is NOT in the episode. Then, the crew gets to be competent again.

Beyond that, Wesley is usually right about stuff, but the crew continues to ignore his suggestions for large portions of episodes. Why? Surely this bright crew of righteous do-gooders eventually notices that this particularly smart kid has his head screwed on straight. Right?

He's good enough that he's made an "acting Ensign" (which is complete BS in its own way) but not good enough to merit any attention when the script calls for the crew to ignore him. It's just poor, lazy writing to make the show more family friendly.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

I guess Gene Roddenberry wrote Wesley as a "Mary Sue" (or "Marty Stu") sort of character -- one who represents the writer and is perfect in all things, better than the adults.

I thought the appeal was supposed to be for kids watching the show -- "he's a kid, I'm a kid; grown-ups keep brushing him off, grown-ups keep brushing me off; he's coming up with brilliant ideas to save the day; I could come up with brilliant ideas to save the day!"

[Anaamika]

Along with all of the other reasons provided, I don't want to see an annoying teenager in what is a show filled with adults. If I wanted that I'd watch buffy.

Honestly, why couldn't the adults come up with the brilliant solutions? They are high-ranking members of Starfleet; are we to assume any kid is just as good? No? Then why see Wesley all the time?

Sometimes teenagers/kids are handled well. Wesley was not. It derails the whole plot for us to have to sit and listen to a whiny teenager school the adults.

[Mijin]

Ah ok, cool, I agree with the unrealistic nature of the non academy trained teenager being the only bright spark.

I still don't get the whiny thing. I would certainly whine x10 if I'd saved the ship from destruction several times yet people won't even let me complete a sen-

[Anaamika]

Ah ok, cool, I agree with the unrealistic nature of the non academy trained teenager being the only bright spark.

I still don't get the whiny thing. I would certainly whine x10 if I'd saved the ship from destruction several times yet people won't even let me complete a sen-

Ha!

But then, Wesley go back to your freakin school studies and ace everyone of them and become the highest ranking officer in fucking Starfleet or something. Don't come where you're not wanted.

[Voyager]

I liked the girls from blonde-world in 'Justice' :D But even way back then, it didn't take me long to spot the giant plot hole in terms of how the Prime Directive is addressed in the plot:

"No, we won't beam Wesley up from your holding cell to our ship, even though we can and you're wink-wink-nudge-nudge saying that you can't stop us, because THAT would be interfering in the development of your society. But we can't abandon Wesley to his death either.

"So what will I do? I will stay here and argue with you about your philosophy of justice until you agree that your entire society's approach to crime and punishment is wrong and you agree to hand Wesley back willingly."

(No, that couldn't possibly interfere in the development of your society! What are you talking about?)

This episode demonstrated that no matter how important the Prime Directive was, it was not as important as the problem of writers who wrote themselves into a corner finishing the script by the deadline. Really pitiful.

[Illuminatiprimus]

I thought the appeal was supposed to be for kids watching the show -- "he's a kid, I'm a kid; grown-ups keep brushing him off, grown-ups keep brushing me off; he's coming up with brilliant ideas to save the day; I could come up with brilliant ideas to save the day!"That probably featured in the thinking somewhat. Such a character was absent from DS9, even though you had young characters like Jake Sisko and Nog (who had the kinds of issues and relationships with people that you would expect teenagers to, rather than be constantly saving the day). The focus of DS9 was very different.

[Great Antibob]

Just wanted to re-quote this from earlier. Wil Wheaton also understands the Wesley hate and where much of it comes from:

You really have to read Wil Wheaton's take on the episode (http://www.aoltv.com/2008/04/28/star-trek-the-next-generation-code-of-honor/).

Here's the money portion of that particular review:

A full day goes by, and they still haven't heard anything from the planet. Picard is understandably concerned about the welfare of his chief of security, so it's the perfect time for the doctor to pay him a visit and pester him to allow Wesley to come hang out on the bridge.

You know, because the last time Wesley was on the bridge everything went so well, and in the middle of a crisis is the perfect time to – OH SWEET JESUS FUCKING CHRIST WHAT THE HELL WAS WRONG WITH THE WRITERS?!

...

Wesley has been ordered to stay off the bridge by the captain, but really really really wants to come hang out with the adults. Also, he's kinda sitting on the turbolift (holding the Door Open button for the last three minutes, I guess) and waiting, so maybe Picard could just let him, you know, come hang out.

Picard says, "Are you out of your fucking mind? My chief of security got kidnapped and taken down to the planet and we haven't heard from her in over a day, you idiot! Of all the times in the world to drag your annoying little wunderkind up here, you picked now? What are you smoking, and why didn't you bring me any? Get out of here, and take Mary Sue with you!"

Nah, I'm just kidding. He invites Wesley to sit at ops. Next to Geordi. In the middle of a major crisis.

My god, a lot of the hate mail I used to get suddenly makes a whole lot of sense. I have never been more grateful that there wasn't liveblogging in 1987 as I am right now.

[Antigen]

I liked the girls from blonde-world in 'Justice' :D But even way back then, it didn't take me long to spot the giant plot hole in terms of how the Prime Directive is addressed in the plot:

"No, we won't beam Wesley up from your holding cell to our ship, even though we can and you're wink-wink-nudge-nudge saying that you can't stop us, because THAT would be interfering in the development of your society. But we can't abandon Wesley to his death either.

"So what will I do? I will stay here and argue with you about your philosophy of justice until you agree that your entire society's approach to crime and punishment is wrong and you agree to hand Wesley back willingly."

(No, that couldn't possibly interfere in the development of your society! What are you talking about?)

Not only that, but the Prime Directive means they should never have even interacted with these people at all! Why were they on the planet?

[Illuminatiprimus]

Not only that, but the Prime Directive means they should never have even interacted with these people at all! Why were they on the planet?That's the bit that really baffles me. It's made clear that the Prime Directive means no interaction with societies too lacking in advancement to be able to properly understand the Federation and relate to them as equals. In that particular episode I don't think the natives had even gone into space, what possible reason would you have to be interacting with them? Maybe other races had already started contact with them, I don't know, it was ages since I saw it.

[Anaamika]

That's the bit that really baffles me. It's made clear that the Prime Directive means no interaction with societies too lacking in advancement to be able to properly understand the Federation and relate to them as equals. In that particular episode I don't think the natives had even gone into space, what possible reason would you have to be interacting with them? Maybe other races had already started contact with them, I don't know, it was ages since I saw it.

They thought the other spaceship was a God!

[Jonathan Chance]

That's the bit that really baffles me. It's made clear that the Prime Directive means no interaction with societies too lacking in advancement to be able to properly understand the Federation and relate to them as equals. In that particular episode I don't think the natives had even gone into space, what possible reason would you have to be interacting with them? Maybe other races had already started contact with them, I don't know, it was ages since I saw it.

Um, hello?

Smoking' hot space babes. I'd violate a couple of directives.