I hate to say this but...

[SticksAndString]

I TOLD YOU SO I TOLD YOU SO I TOOOOLD YOOOOU SOOOO!

See..you should've listened to me when I told you that this wasn't going to work out like you said it would and now when it hasn't worked out the way you wanted NOW you want to change things.

TOLD YOU SO TOLD YOU SO TOLD YOU SO!

If I felt like I was competent enough to do homeschooling or had the money for a private school (which I don't and I really don't) I'd yank him out so fast your head would spin around.

[Sitnam]

Well, that made sense.

[kaylasdad99]

1. Welcome to the SDMB. I hope you have a wonderful time here, and choose us for all your ranting needs.

2. You don't really think you're going to get away with leaving it at that, do you?

STORIES!!!

[SticksAndString]

I have a son with several disabilities--speech/motor skills issues, sensory issues, ADHD and Asperger's. At the end of the last school year, the district re-drew the attendance zones which moved us from a school he'd attended for two years at that point. At school A, he'd done very very well because they had Content Mastery where he got one on one attention/help as well as a quiet place to do his work without the distractions that come with a normal classroom enviroment.

School B (where he's been attending this year) does not HAVE Content Mastery (I forget the reason..it's probably budget cuts though) and so this year has been extremely difficult for him because of that. I told the teacher and the sp ed. specialist going into this year that things would be difficult for Slim but they reassured me he'd do JUST FINE.

He hasn't done JUST FINE..his grades are OK (mostly As and Bs because he's incredibly smart, like a lot of Aspies) but he's not (their words) "producing the level of work we know he's capable of doing" because he gets distracted too easily (having one kid who actively goes out of his way to try and distract Slim doesn't help either).

It's only now, towards the end of the school year, that the staff is admitting they might have made a mistake and we're going to do everything we can to push through a transfer back to school A for next fall.

[kaylasdad99]

Well, I'm happy for you and your lad that they're going to try to fix it. I'd hate to think of the extra challenges you'd be letting yourself in for were you conclude that you needed to homeschool him even without feeling confident. Best of luck to you and him.

And again, welcome. :)

[SticksAndString]

Thanks. :)

I know that his teacher, bless her heart, has been doing her best to educate my rambunctious, unmedicated ADHD-laden Aspie who (as Aspies frequently do) seems to have a bad case of "run-on mouth"*.


*run-on mouth just basically means he NEVER EVER shuts up. He talks or sings or hums ALL THE TIME...even in his sleep. LOL

[YogSosoth]

His name is Slim?

[Dung Beetle]

I wouldn't mess around with him.

[SticksAndString]

No, it's a nickname because he's always been kinda skinny. Whoever invented those pants with the adjustable elastic doohickeys (NOT a drawstring..it's elastic that has button holes in it) was a GENIUS, because otherwise he'd never have pants that fit.

[Enderw24]

Oh it's like that old joke. Why did the kid with Aspergers wear an adjustable elastic waistband?


To keep his pants up!

[Rachellelogram]

In his sleevies! Wait, wrong punchline...

[bup]

I know that his teacher, bless her heart, has been doing her best to educate my rambunctious, unmedicated ADHD-laden Aspie who (as Aspies frequently do) seems to have a bad case of "run-on mouth"*.


*run-on mouth just basically means he NEVER EVER shuts up. He talks or sings or hums ALL THE TIME...even in his sleep. LOLWitness. Preach it, sistah.

Run-on mouth has driven me closer to homicidal rage than anything else in the universe.

[SticksAndString]

Witness. Preach it, sistah.

Run-on mouth has driven me closer to homicidal rage than anything else in the universe.

*high-fives*
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who's felt that way from time to time.:D

This is not a war I signed up for voluntarily, I was drafted with no warning whatsoever. I've slogged through the dirty mud a bit and I've had more than a few good days. It's the good days that keep me going and thank goodness Slim has a natural talent for clownish behavior to keep me laughing, otherwise I'd be crying all the time.

SaS

[The Great Sun Jester]

I'm with you OP. Aspergers & ADHD are the croutons on my son's Bipolar I salad. The kid becomes Napoleon-esque, he won't calm down, and he won't shut up. I love him dearly but nobody has ever come closer to driving me to cannibalism.

For giving us this disorder, Mr. Asperger should be hunted down and talked to, incessantly, until we think he's had enough.

[Boyo Jim]

So how did your kid get stuck with a transfer to a school that didn't have the appropriate programs?

[elfkin477]

So how did your kid get stuck with a transfer to a school that didn't have the appropriate programs? Um...
At the end of the last school year, the district re-drew the attendance zones which moved us from a school he'd attended for two years at that point.

[Autolycus]

So how did your kid get stuck with a transfer to a school that didn't have the appropriate programs?

It's because he's a terrible father.

[Rushgeekgirl]

As a mama who just had her annual IEP update meeting this afternoon, I feel ya. I was told the same thing about my little girl (autism spectrum but where TBD). She's very, very smart. Just doesn't apply herself. Gets distracted. Really? Just like I told you she would? Because of the sensory issues? At least now they've finally figured out to warn her when they're about to pull the fire alarm for a drill so she doesn't have a full-on panic attack.

And yet her OT thinks she's "on level" so her services aren't needed anymore. I think this is a huge mistake, and I let her know but she says because of her scores she doesn't qualify. She hasn't changed that much in the past six months. She still needs help with sensory adjustment, with defensiveness, very poor handwriting due to her pronate grip, and yes it's only occasional, but she does still spin for self stimulation. Not to mention aggressiveness with other children... oh but she's just fine. We shall see. I find it curious that her independent speech path at LeBonheur says her language skills are that of a four year old (she's seven) but her school speech therapist says she's at age six, so her therapy will be reduced from 1.5 hours a week to .5. I'm real curious how the same inventory came up with two full years difference in the scoring and I'm QUITE curious why they didn't have those scores for me to see at the meeting today.

I'm not a happy mama right now because I know I'm going to have to push. I'm a very passive, easy-going person. I hate pushing. But I've had to push for everything related to her diagnosis since she was two years old. I might as well get used to it.

I'd like to think maybe I'm wrong. . . after all THEY are the experts, but they are experts at one thing while I'm expert in another. I'd rather be wrong though, than get the change to say "I told you so". Anything for her to show some strong improvement.

[Aspidistra]

At the end of the last school year, the district re-drew the attendance zones which moved us from a school he'd attended for two years at that point.

School administrators who do this ought to be poked with knitting needles all day and night till they've had enough. Seriously. Leave the kids in the damn school they started in, numbnuts, by all means restrict entry for new kids but why fuck about with the peer groups of the ones who are already there. Never mind the EXTRA issues with a special needs kid who needs all the support he can get, not being shunted around by faceless administrators

I just did the enrolment for my own ASD son to start next year where his sisters go. We're out of area (not our fault - we were in area when the Taller Girl started) but he has a sibling exemption. If we didn't have that then I guess we'd be looking for a new house round about now, but one way or another by hook or by crook he IS going to that school and let who dares try to stop us. And as for ripping him out of a school where he's already established... (*glares round at assembled company threateningly*)

[Aspidistra]

I'd like to think maybe I'm wrong. . . after all THEY are the experts, but they are experts at one thing while I'm expert in another.

My phrase for this is "hey, you have a degree in OT/Speech/Psych ... but I have a degree in Daniel from the University of Imhismum."

Not had to say it out loud - yet

[SticksAndString]

I think I just found my homies in Rushgeekgirl and Aspidistra. :D

Aspidistra--I've got several sets of small gauge double pointed sock needles (going to cast on a pair of socks this morning after I drop Slim off s'matter of fact) if you want to poke the school district people with me. :D

Rushgeekgirl--((hugs)). We're going to have our annual ARD some time in April (I think the second week) and I cannot WAIT for this to happen.

We've also chosen to not medicate Slim for his ADHD...we tried one medication (not Ritalin though..I refuse to even THINK about that shit) and because of what happened during the year or so he was on it, we're a little gun shy about going back on ANY kind of meds. It was absolutely the WORST YEAR EVER. I practically had to hogtie him to get him to take his meds in the morning and then, by the time he got home from school they'd wear off so doing homework took forever not only because I had to redirect his attention but little teeny stupid things would cause him to have massive meltdowns. After he'd rage and rage and rage, he'd come to me bawling his eyes out and apologizing for his behavior, asking me "What can I do about it?". I didn't know if he meant what could he do about the meltdowns or his feelings or what because he couldn't explain what he meant.

A couple of the staff members at School B want us to put him back on meds and one of them has even cornered me in the office when I came to sign in to volunteer (I hang out in the library a lot). It took everything I had (esp since the secretary and the school nurse were RIGHT THERE) not to smack this six and some change foot tall ex-Marine upside the head because we'd told him we were going to take Slim off the meds.

*hands out coffee with your choice of alcoholic additions* We'll get through this somehow, right? For some reason I have part of a Destiny's Child song stuck in my head right now: Imma survivor, I'm not gonna give up. I'm gonna work harder. Imma survivor.

[Rachellelogram]

You don't have to try a drug for a year to know it isn't working for your kid. Unmedicated ADHD is hell for him, his teachers, and his classmates. Try something else.

[Really Not All That Bright]

How dare the school move your child to a program where he gets As and Bs! Shocking.

[bup]

For giving us this disorder, Mr. Asperger should be hunted down and talked to, incessantly, until we think he's had enough.
Just imagining that took me to a happy place.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

How dare the school move your child to a program where he gets As and Bs! Shocking.

Did you read what the OP said that even his teachers admit he's not doing as well as he could be and as well as he had been?

:rolleyes:

[SticksAndString]

The thing is though, he was making good grades regardless of the meds. Granted, he was only in pre-K/Kindergarten before we introduced the meds.

Slim actually told us at one point that he didn't want to take his meds anymore and I know that while he was only about 7 at the time, we listened to him. According to him, the meds made his brain feel fuzzy and he HATED that.

He is, by all accounts, an extremely bright kid (one teacher said he might even be a genius, but she might have been trying to blow smoke up my ass for all I know). And Hubs and I *expect* good grades from him...when Slim is at home, even if he's finished his homework for the week (which happens usually by the second or third day), I find things for him to do. I make up worksheets and make him write his spelling words several times until he can spell them without even thinking about it. I am NOT one of those parents who, because their child has an issue, lets them get lazy/skate by on schoolwork. I know that having his issues and being unmedicated makes things more difficult for him, but that doesn't mean he can't learn to manage his issues without meds.

The thing with ADHD meds is, regardless of whether is Ritalin or Focalin or Statterra or whatever, they all have similiar side effects--loss of appatite (which we experienced..it was a booger to get him to eat ANYTHING at all. I swear he was living on air and Pop tarts), trouble sleeping (again..something we experienced), anger issues, that sort of thing. It's not worth it TO US to put ourselves or our son through that kind of hell again just to make life easier for his teachers and therapists at school.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Did you read what the OP said that even his teachers admit he's not doing as well as he could be and as well as he had been?

:rolleyes:

So true..... everyone's disabled nowadays.

If Harrison Bergeron erred in its predictions, it was only the belief that we'd need a Handicapper General to impose disabilities on ourselves externally, rather than rely on our own enthusiasm for medicalizing our own shortcomings and bad habits.

[SticksAndString]

Can I just say I love your username? :D

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

So true..... everyone's disabled nowadays.



What does that even mean- can no one actually be disabled anymore? There is a world of difference between "shortcomings" and true disabilities, even if you want to make it so. It's like saying because some people limp because they pulled a muscle polio doesn't exist.

The kids that have learning disabilities have these conditions to such an extreme that normal techniques in management do not work. That's when it becomes a disability.

[Rushgeekgirl]

FTR. . .
My kid is not disabled, not even close. She has needs that require special educational methods that go beyond regular placement in school, which is why she has an IEP in place, but having autism does not disable her one bit.

[Damuri Ajashi]

So true..... everyone's disabled nowadays.

If Harrison Bergeron erred in its predictions, it was only the belief that we'd need a Handicapper General to impose disabilities on ourselves externally, rather than rely on our own enthusiasm for medicalizing our own shortcomings and bad habits.

Yeah, thats kinda how I felt when I read this thread. So, your kid is getting As and Bs but he used to do better when he had something that sounds like individual tutoring. Imagine that.

I'm sure I'm not getting the correct picture because it sounds like an invitation to pit the pitter.

On the one hand, we have gotten better at diagnosing these problems in kids (especially suburban white kids and especially RICH suburban shite kids) and we level the playing field for them (we give them extra time on the SATs and even on first year law school exams (which determine whether your first job out of law school is going to pay $160K/year or 60K/year.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1787712&page=1
http://ldx.sagepub.com/content/9/9/596.short

I don't doubt that people have learning disabilities but I never understood giving them extra time on tests and letting them take the same test multiple times. It is especially obnoxious when I hear that some rich kids pay some psychologist to give thema note that will double their test taking time on the SATs. Don't rich kids have enough advantages in life that we don't have to throw them this little nugget?

[Damuri Ajashi]

I'm not saying that anyone is faking anything or that I want to abandon any kids but this learning disability thing has gotten a bit out of control. It is especially obnoxious when I hear that some rich kids pay some psychologist to give thema note that will double their test taking time on the SATs. Don't rich kids have enough advantages in life that we don't have to throw them this little nugget? And while I am a huge proponent of public education, I don't think the purpose of public education is necessarily to provide accomodation for every kid's individual needs. I don't think we should be spending so much to make sure that a kid with innate disabilities can perform at their tippy top performance level while we leave so much aside for lack of resources in other areas.

[monstro]

I think this thread could inspire a really interesting GD thread.

It has been determined that the student in the OP has a sub-optimal learning environment at his present school, though he is still performing above average.

I have no doubt that the student has disabilities and challenges that should be addressed.

But sub-optimal environments are par for the course for most highly intelligent youngsters, correct?

I guess the argument is that he would be making straight As with individualized attention, which would also alleviate the physical discomfort induced by being in a mainstream classroom. I understand this, and I would definitely want this for my child, if I were a parent. But aren't there other children who are stuck in learning environments that are sub-optimal for them, who would go from making Cs and Ds to As and Bs (or maybe even all As) if given individualized treatment? And aren't there other children who deal with discomfort by being in a typical classroom setting? Like kids who get teased or have emotional problems (social anxiety, depression, etc.)

Overcrowding is a big problem in many schools. So it's refreshing to hear that there are some schools that do care to help their students go as far as they can. So...I'm feeling like the OP really shouldn't be pitting anyone. It sounds like the school district is doing something rather remarkable. Right? Or am I totally off-base?

[Aspidistra]

People are getting too hung up on the grades here. With an Aspergers kid, it's perfectly possible - even par for the course - to get excellent grades all the way through your school career but be completely unable to function in the post-school world due to inability to read social cues, or cope with the inherent randomness of day-to-day life.

Personally, I could give a shit if the Small Boy ends up getting straight As in his classes, as long as he ends up able to read, write, add and multiply. What I am concerned about is that he should end his school career able to meet people he doesn't know without it causing a conniption, understand that if someone says hi to you you should probably say hi back, hold conversations on neutral topics like "the weather" and "last weekend's footy", look people in the eye when they expect it, and maintain at least one or two reciprocal friendships.

The possibility that he might not master these skills, which rank for most people in the "piss-easy" range, is a very live one and I would, in a heartbeat, move him away from a school where he was getting academic As and Bs but was not getting help to master these more intangible but important tasks.

In the case of Sticks's kid, I suspect that what's happening is that the school is unable to manage him behaviourally and that, through no fault of his own, he's being a disruption in the classroom. The school is asking to put him on medication, where he doesn't want to and the previous school was able to accomodate him just fine without it. Fuck that noise. Let him go to the place that can deal with him un-drugged. Since it's there and has a proven track record of educating and managing him just fine.

And I still maintain that yanking a kid - any kid - out of a school he's perfectly fine in for basically no reason is mean and unnecessary. WTF is wrong with leaving the current kids where they are and restricting NEXT year's intake if they think they're getting too big?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Did you read what the OP said that even his teachers admit he's not doing as well as he could be and as well as he had been?

:rolleyes:
Well, that's a shame. Except for the part where pretty much every public school student would be doing better with individual attention.

[SticksAndString]

Thanks, Apidestra for having my back. :)

Let me address a couple of things though.

Yeah, thats kinda how I felt when I read this thread. So, your kid is getting As and Bs but he used to do better when he had something that sounds like individual tutoring. Imagine that.


In CM, it's as much about getting away from the noise/distraction of the classroom as it is about individual tutoring. The help is there IF HE WANTS IT (and sometimes he didn't because he's Mr. Independant).

Personally, I could give a shit if the Small Boy ends up getting straight As in his classes, as long as he ends up able to read, write, add and multiply. What I am concerned about is that he should end his school career able to meet people he doesn't know without it causing a conniption, understand that if someone says hi to you you should probably say hi back, hold conversations on neutral topics like "the weather" and "last weekend's footy", look people in the eye when they expect it, and maintain at least one or two reciprocal friendships.

The possibility that he might not master these skills, which rank for most people in the "piss-easy" range, is a very live one and I would, in a heartbeat, move him away from a school where he was getting academic As and Bs but was not getting help to master these more intangible but important tasks.

This right here exactly..she said it before I could but that's exactly how I feel. I like that he's getting good grades, but for him that's the easy part. Learning to be social, make friends, act in a socially appropriate manner...THAT"S the hard part. I was so happy I was almost in tears when I saw the list of students in Slim's class the first day of school because some of the kids who'd come from school A also were in his class. It meant that despite the stress a new enviroment and a new teacher were going to cause, he at least had some kids he was FAMILIAR with to ease that a wee tiny bit.
It also seems that Slim has made a friend for the first time..another parent came up to us on Open House night and wanted to exchange info so her son D and Slim could hang out sometime. Apparently D could do nothing BUT talk of Slim and their mutual love of the movies CARS and CARS 2. I was cheering inside.."YES! He made a friend!".


Damuri Ajashi--we're far from rich. We're not poverty stricken but we ain't rich either. We're just barely making it right now and our district is one of the most poverty-stricken in the area. So we ain't rich. We have some rich families who live in the McMansions down by the lake, but we ain't one of them.

having autism does not disable her one bit
Exactly what I was thinking!

[naita]

My phrase for this is "hey, you have a degree in OT/Speech/Psych ... but I have a degree in Daniel from the University of Imhismum."

Not had to say it out loud - yet

I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, but as a teacher I've delt with moms whose degrees from the University of Imhismum should never have been granted.

[gamerunknown]

What I am concerned about is that he should end his school career able to meet people he doesn't know without it causing a conniption, understand that if someone says hi to you you should probably say hi back, hold conversations on neutral topics like "the weather" and "last weekend's footy", look people in the eye when they expect it, and maintain at least one or two reciprocal friendships.

Well, that depends entirely on how developed their theory of mind is. Their levels of empathy will probably never match the average persons and it is probably best for them and everyone around them that they get to focus instead on doing what they love.

[SticksAndString]

Getting to do what you love is IRRELEVANT if you can't even make it through the interview process to get to that job (whatever it might be) because you can't make some sort of a connection with the interviewer.

[Jenaroph]

Well, that depends entirely on how developed their theory of mind is. Their levels of empathy will probably never match the average persons and it is probably best for them and everyone around them that they get to focus instead on doing what they love.
Not a mom, here, but it seems what's being talked about isn't a matter of kids who need to be taught how to be social butterflies, or even average socially, but to be FUNCTIONAL. Which later in life can mean the difference between being able to live on their own and support themselves, or instead ending up in something like a group home or unfortunately something worse.

If you're not good at something, if in fact you're so bad at it that it causes you problems in life, does it make more sense to practice that skill, or to go practice the things you're already really really good at?

[Boyo Jim]

Getting to do what you love is IRRELEVANT if you can't even make it through the interview process to get to that job (whatever it might be) because you can't make some sort of a connection with the interviewer.

Not if what you love is pissing people off.

[Rushgeekgirl]

I'm not saying that anyone is faking anything or that I want to abandon any kids but this learning disability thing has gotten a bit out of control. It is especially obnoxious when I hear that some rich kids pay some psychologist to give thema note that will double their test taking time on the SATs. Don't rich kids have enough advantages in life that we don't have to throw them this little nugget? And while I am a huge proponent of public education, I don't think the purpose of public education is necessarily to provide accomodation for every kid's individual needs. I don't think we should be spending so much to make sure that a kid with innate disabilities can perform at their tippy top performance level while we leave so much aside for lack of resources in other areas.

I don't know about these rich parents paying for doctor notes but of course that's wrong. That's cheating the system established to help students who do have special needs. It took three years of testing for us to qualify for 2 sessions of speech and 1 of OT a week at school plus consideration for sensory issues and delays. I am on welfare and food stamps because I'm far, far below poverty level. Not once did I have anyone whisper in my ear, "hey if you have a little extra cash we can take care of that testing right now for you!" I guess maybe if we had better insurance than state brand we'd be sent to different doctors? I don't know. All I know is my daughter makes As and Bs (or the equivalent) because I continue to fight and insist on plans and goals every few months. If I sent her in without that help she would fall SO far behind yet she is very intelligent.

The problem is that she DOES need a little extra time and she does need someone to help explain what is needed sometimes, mostly because she has language processing issues. You can't ask her "Where is your nose?" or she'll draw a blank, but if you ask, "Can you point to your nose?" she knows exactly what is being asked. This is because she has so much difficulty with Who/What/Where/Why questions. They just don't compute. And you know on most tests those words are used on a regular basis. If she didn't get extra help, she couldn't answer the question- it just won't happen. If it's rephrased, she has no problem at all. Why would anyone want to take that extra help away from a student? Can you not see how quickly a child would fall behind and remain caught in the crack? It's the difference between passing and failing academically.

I don't know what line of work you're in, but if you're in education how do you determine who to allow to fall into the cracks? Where do you personally draw the line when it comes to who is worth helping and who doesn't deserve extra assistance? I think that's probably the entire point of IEPs, don't you? And yes, sometimes people will cheat to get their kids an IEP, but considering there's a review every year with the current teacher, principal, every therapist and the lead Special Ed. teacher, a single note from someone's doctor is NOT going to hold much weight.

[Damuri Ajashi]

HUGE CAVEAT. My comments are not from the perspective of soemone who understands all the nuances of this stuff. I don't even know what an IEP is.

Damuri Ajashi--we're far from rich. We're not poverty stricken but we ain't rich either. We're just barely making it right now and our district is one of the most poverty-stricken in the area. So we ain't rich. We have some rich families who live in the McMansions down by the lake, but we ain't one of them.

I'm not saying that you are pulling this shit. I was voicing a general frustration with the apparent epidemic of learning disabilities that we see, especially among the children of doctors, lawyers and investment bankers that get diagnosed right before the SATs and lose their diagnosis in their senior year.

The criticism I was directing at you was the distinction you made between getting straight A's with an individual teacher versus A's and B's in a class environment. If you are talking about sessions with a psychologist to get your kid to understand how to function in a social setting, then so long as we know that this is something that therapy can fix or mitigate then we should try to get your that therapy if it isn't going to drain resources that could be better used to help a greater number of kids.

But if you are insisting that your kid needs individual tutoring so that they can get A's instead of B's then you are setting yourself up for a pitting.

I don't know about these rich parents paying for doctor notes but of course that's wrong. That's cheating the system established to help students who do have special needs. It took three years of testing for us to qualify for 2 sessions of speech and 1 of OT a week at school plus consideration for sensory issues and delays. I am on welfare and food stamps because I'm far, far below poverty level. Not once did I have anyone whisper in my ear, "hey if you have a little extra cash we can take care of that testing right now for you!" I guess maybe if we had better insurance than state brand we'd be sent to different doctors? I don't know. All I know is my daughter makes As and Bs (or the equivalent) because I continue to fight and insist on plans and goals every few months. If I sent her in without that help she would fall SO far behind yet she is very intelligent.

If you look at the links above, you will note that poor kids (and especially minority kids) get diagnosed much less frequently than rich kids. Things have to be pretty bad before people notice a learning disability in a poor kid.

I don't have problems with behavioral therapy and occupational therapy, thats levelling the playing field as far as I'm concerned. But a lot of this stuff isn't levelling the playing field its creating a special easier playing field for kids who are diagnosed with a learning disability.

The problem is that she DOES need a little extra time and she does need someone to help explain what is needed sometimes, mostly because she has language processing issues. You can't ask her "Where is your nose?" or she'll draw a blank, but if you ask, "Can you point to your nose?" she knows exactly what is being asked. This is because she has so much difficulty with Who/What/Where/Why questions. They just don't compute. And you know on most tests those words are used on a regular basis. If she didn't get extra help, she couldn't answer the question- it just won't happen. If it's rephrased, she has no problem at all. Why would anyone want to take that extra help away from a student? Can you not see how quickly a child would fall behind and remain caught in the crack? It's the difference between passing and failing academically.

Not to put too fine a point on it but at some point you have to wonder if your kid is as smart as you think she is. If you want special sessions to help your kid understand the concept of who, what, where, why, etc. I can see that but if she just can't ever understand those concepts then it sounds like your kid probably isn't going to be very functional in society.

I don't know what line of work you're in, but if you're in education how do you determine who to allow to fall into the cracks? Where do you personally draw the line when it comes to who is worth helping and who doesn't deserve extra assistance? I think that's probably the entire point of IEPs, don't you? And yes, sometimes people will cheat to get their kids an IEP, but considering there's a review every year with the current teacher, principal, every therapist and the lead Special Ed. teacher, a single note from someone's doctor is NOT going to hold much weight.

I'm pretty utilitarian about these things. We have limited resources and we allocate the resources where they will do the most good. That means that some kids fall through the cracks if their parents don't have the resources to bridge the gap?

If a year or two of behavioral and occupational therapy during childhood is going to turn a ward of the state into a self sufficient taxpaying member of society then great. I think that is an investment well worth making. If they are going to eventually be wards of the state no matter what we do, then I don't see why society would want to invest so much in them.

[monstro]

If a year or two of behavioral and occupational therapy during childhood is going to turn a ward of the state into a self sufficient taxpaying member of society then great. I think that is an investment well worth making. If they are going to eventually be wards of the state no matter what we do, then I don't see why society would want to invest so much in them.

Well, I think it's because you don't know what kind of kid you're working with. It's hard enough to predict the future of a non-special needs kid. Maybe you put in two years and you see significant progress, but the kid is still not where he should be. Do you just give up? Or do you keep going and see how far he can go? Maybe with another two years of individual attention, you will turn out a "functional" future tax-payer.

Also, there is not an absolute definition of "functional". Maybe a kid will never become fully independent, but it sure would help his caretakers if he can dress himself, understand basic sentences, and not set the house on fire.

I do wonder about the heavy emphasis on social skills training, though. I agree that schools should teach children how to socialize, but it seems to me there comes a point when parents should not expect schools to provide all the therapeutic services their kids need. If I have a kid who has extreme social anxiety and is selectively mute, I would make sure the teacher knows and helps the kid navigate their learning environment as much as they possibly can. If the social anxiety is impeding learning, then I would hope that the school could accommodate this somehow. But it seems like expecting the school to "fix" my kid's difficulties would be expecting a little too much out of a public service with limited resources. I would definitely appreciate any assistance they could provide with therapy and life skills management. But I don't know how I would feel about demanding it.

[Aspidistra]

I'm not saying that you are pulling this shit. I was voicing a general frustration with the apparent epidemic of learning disabilities that we see, especially among the children of doctors, lawyers and investment bankers that get diagnosed right before the SATs and lose their diagnosis in their senior year.


I must say, this is not anything I've ever seen IRL, and I do wonder to what extent it happens. And I don't understand why you would - wouldn't it be simpler just to put them in a posh private school and hire tutors if you're trying to give them an unfair advantage?

Anyway, even if people do pull something like that, you can't with Aspergers. An Aspergers diagnosis is for life, even if you, through effort, improve your flexibility and social functioning to the point where nobody can tell the difference.


The criticism I was directing at you was the distinction you made between getting straight A's with an individual teacher versus A's and B's in a class environment. If you are talking about sessions with a psychologist to get your kid to understand how to function in a social setting, then so long as we know that this is something that therapy can fix or mitigate then we should try to get your that therapy if it isn't going to drain resources that could be better used to help a greater number of kids.

But if you are insisting that your kid needs individual tutoring so that they can get A's instead of B's then you are setting yourself up for a pitting.


I don't know the specifics involved in Sticks' school system, but I doubt that the individual attention involved in "Content Mastery" is that of an actual teacher.

Here's how it works in our school. My oldest kid is in a class with a boy, "R" who has Aspergers and has an aide. This position has the same qualifications, pay and career opportunities as that of zebra crossing supervisor, and to the best of my knowledge they don't have much if any pre-training in special needs. Having seen the aide at work while I was doing parent-helper stuff in the classroom, here's an example of how it works.

The kids all get together at the start of the lesson and sit and listen while the teacher explains the lesson. "R" sits still (mostly) too - a task he finds extraordinarily challenging, and he has various strategies to help him achieve this - low humming, nodding his head back and forward, muttering under his breath, doing a countdown till he's allowed to move again. The aide listens to the lesson, occasionally attempting to redirect R's attention to it also, but he really doesn't have much attention to spare, what with all the concentrating on "not moving" he's doing. Then the kids split into groups to work on the lesson material and R and the aide go out into the corridor.

NOW, finally, he's free! He paces backwards and forwards backwards and forwards round and round and round the landing while working on the lesson material with the aide, in exactly the same manner as the other kids are currently working on the lesson with each other in the class. He can now discuss this perfectly intelligently, and concentrate quite well. Freed from the necessity of keeping still and not distracting the other kids, he masters the material, just as the other kids do.

Some observations:

* All the other kids are doing one thing - mastering the lesson material. "R" is doing two - mastering the material AND practising his "sitting still and not distracting people" techniques.

* With the aide, R can do perfectly well, even excel. Without the aide, not only is he totally fucked, most of the rest of the class is too because he's going to be wandering backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards all over the classroom muttering and distracting everyone. The choice is not "get As or get Cs". Its "get As or get Fs" or possibly "get As or get expelled"

* At some point, with lots of practise, R will probably master the "sitting still and not distracting people" technique, maybe even to the extent where he can concentrate on other stuff at the same time. But he'll still be pretty screwed at that point unless, in the interim, he's learned some actual schoolwork.

* The aide, while essential to R, would be no use whatsoever to a neurotypical kid. She has no particular knowledge of the subject matter the kids learn. In some areas, like French for instance, she may even be behind his skill level. A large part of her job consists of taking him away from the teacher, the person who actually knows stuff.



All I know is my daughter makes As and Bs (or the equivalent) because I continue to fight and insist on plans and goals every few months. If I sent her in without that help she would fall SO far behind yet she is very intelligent.

Not to put too fine a point on it but at some point you have to wonder if your kid is as smart as you think she is. If you want special sessions to help your kid understand the concept of who, what, where, why, etc. I can see that but if she just can't ever understand those concepts then it sounds like your kid probably isn't going to be very functional in society.


To the best of my recollection, rushgeekkid is still pretty young. Eight, nine? Far too young, anyway, to give up on her and say "oh, she'll never be able to do that". Yes, even though that is generally an age two to three level skill. Kids with autism spectrum difficulties often just don't get it and don't get it and don't get it ... until one day they DO! And that is why we keep on trucking.

[SticksAndString]

Let me address something first..I forget who mentioned it right this second though.

IEP stands for Individual Education Plan. Basically, it's a list of goals decided upon by the teachers/therapists your child works with every day for that semester or school year. Every so often (we get ours when report cards come out) they will send you an update saying they've made limited progress, good progress, or even mastered whatever skill/goal they put forth. The IEP gets reviewed at least once a year during an ARD (Admittance, Review or Dissmissal) committee meeting which involves the child's regular teacher, any members of the SpEd dept that need to be there, the school's diagnostician and usually the principal. During an ARD committee meeting, you discuss the IEP and what changes (if any) need to be made for the next school year.

But it seems like expecting the school to "fix" my kid's difficulties would be expecting a little too much out of a public service with limited resources

I personally do not expect the school to "fix" my child. I DO however expect them to HELP me in correcting any issues that can be corrected. Hubs and I are very big on working with the teachers, etc and I have no problem saying "What would you like me to work on with him at home? What can I do to make YOUR job easier?". During school breaks and summer, we do at least an hour of "schoolwork" (writing practice, math worksheets, etc) every single day so that he doesn't fall behind. We work on the issues he specifically needs help with (coloring in the lines, writing and drawing shapes for example) and I try to help him with any physical therapy I can. We spend a LOT of time at the park/at the pool so that he can work on climbing, running, jumping onto/off of things and hanging (to develop upper body strength) from monkey bars.

I don't know how it works in other school systems in other countries, but I know at in our school system there is generally only one or two teachers in CM and there may be as many as 20-30 kids in there at a time from different grades, most of them needing assistance for any number of subjects. So it's not exactly individual tutoring, although I know Slim did get more one on one face time when he went to CM. They also would 'scribe' for him on tests (his handwriting is terrible to the point of almost being unreadable, but we're working on that) when it was required.

[2gigch1]

I'll jump into this water too - I had a stepson in my first marriage that had needs (I handled all his IEP meetings because his mom didn't want to deal with it) and I come from an education family (I am the only non teacher in the group.)

I think the big difference between today and 'the good old days' is that there was no lack of children with issues, it's just those children were simply labeled 'troublemakers' and were pushed down the ladder. Then they either dropped out or barely scraped along until they graduated, then proceeded to fail through the rest of life.

Sure you can argue not my problem / don't spend my tax dollars, but a person who has met with failure all their lives for reasons they did not choose to have you are going to end up paying for their problems somehow. It might be incarceration, welfare, whatever, but the price of adult failure is a lot higher than the cost of childhood intervention.

[Vlad/Igor]

You could easily be describing Vlad the Younger: born with severe hearing loss, dystonia, oral defensiveness, ADHD Dx at age 5, Aspergers Dx at age 10, and at 17 still wears some jeans with drawstrings.

We tried Strattera, and it made him wild. We tried Ritalin, but it wore off too fast. We tried Adderall, but it didn't help enough. We tried some other things, and eventually settled on valproic acid and Seroquel for mood stabilization and Concerta (time release methylphenidate) for attention. He has done wonderfully on them, and doesn't like it when he misses his Concerta dose. Keep trying with the meds. ADHD/Aspergers have their roots in brain microstructures that result in throwing brain chemistry off-balance, among other things. The right medication at the right dose will help the imbalance, and make it easier for him to accomplish what he wants to do and interact more easily with the world.

Oh, yeah - did I mention that he's close to getting his Eagle rank in Boy Scouts? He would not be so close if we didn't find the right medications.

[SticksAndString]

I'm glad that medications worked FOR YOUR SON. I don't believe that medications are the answer for everybody, though.

That is NOT to say that some day we won't try medications again but that day is not today. Base on the side effects we saw from the one medication we tried (Focalin) we're just not eager to go there again. Aside from the lack of appatite and the trouble sleeping, Slim would have massive meltdowns on a scale I'd NEVER seen before from him. He would rage to the point that I was afraid he would hurt himself or me, slamming his head into doors or walls, throwing things, trying to bite and kick and hit and headbutt me. This would go on for up to an hour at a time and it truly scared the living shit out of me. I began to wonder what I was doing wrong to cause him to act this way. I was starting to say to myself and to Hubs, "My GOD! If I have to put up with this for the next eleven or twelve YEARS until he goes to college, God willing, I will go completely insane."

When we took him off the Focalin, the meltdowns decreased not only in frequency but in severity as well so I knew that it had to be the medication causing him to act in this way.

[Vlad/Igor]

I understand your reluctance, given the reaction he had. That sounds like a very scary and traumatic time. It isn't fair to judge all medications based on the experience of one, because different medications act in different ways. There's no reason to think that your son will have an equally violent reaction to another drug, or a different dose. Just as you've discovered that the school system's attitude of "one size fits all" is inadequate and unfair to your son, so is the opposing attitude of "no size fits no one." My son was, and still is an enigma to us at times, but to the clinicians he sees, and the researchers I've talked to, he is somewhat familiar to them. It has helped us to tap into that feeling of familiarity and with their guidance, try different things (not just medication) until we found something that worked.

While I respect your decision and belief that drugs are not for everyone, I have also seen a lot of people needlessly suffer by foregoing medication. Those who eventually agreed to take medication benefited.

[SticksAndString]

You're right, of course, but from my understanding every single drug that can be prescribed for ADHD has the potential for that kind of reaction, though.

It also didn't help that Slim has a very strong gag reflex, so with the Focalin we hd to break open the capsule, pour the meds into a spoonful of applesauce or pudding or whatever. It made the food taste disgusting (naturally) and eventually it got to the point where I practically had to sit on him and force the medication into his mouth. He's a LOT stronger than I am and a lot of times, he would spit the medicine right back at me instead of swallowing it. So I never really knew how much of his dose he was getting.

We've been doing behavior modification and that seems to be working, thank goodness.

[Damuri Ajashi]

I must say, this is not anything I've ever seen IRL, and I do wonder to what extent it happens. And I don't understand why you would - wouldn't it be simpler just to put them in a posh private school and hire tutors if you're trying to give them an unfair advantage?

Anyway, even if people do pull something like that, you can't with Aspergers. An Aspergers diagnosis is for life, even if you, through effort, improve your flexibility and social functioning to the point where nobody can tell the difference.

I'm going by news articles. I provided a cite. Posh private schools are great and all but its not "either/or" you can get them a posh private school education AND double the time on the SATs.

To the best of my recollection, rushgeekkid is still pretty young. Eight, nine? Far too young, anyway, to give up on her and say "oh, she'll never be able to do that". Yes, even though that is generally an age two to three level skill. Kids with autism spectrum difficulties often just don't get it and don't get it and don't get it ... until one day they DO! And that is why we keep on trucking.

Hrmm. I did not know that. So at some point they can have an AHA moment and somethign clicks and that particular problem either goes away or diminishes?

IEP stands for Individual Education Plan.

Ah thanks


I'll jump into this water too - I had a stepson in my first marriage that had needs (I handled all his IEP meetings because his mom didn't want to deal with it) and I come from an education family (I am the only non teacher in the group.)

I think the big difference between today and 'the good old days' is that there was no lack of children with issues, it's just those children were simply labeled 'troublemakers' and were pushed down the ladder. Then they either dropped out or barely scraped along until they graduated, then proceeded to fail through the rest of life.

Sure you can argue not my problem / don't spend my tax dollars, but a person who has met with failure all their lives for reasons they did not choose to have you are going to end up paying for their problems somehow. It might be incarceration, welfare, whatever, but the price of adult failure is a lot higher than the cost of childhood intervention.

I hear you and I think its a good investment to try to transform convicts and inmates into taxpayers even if they live in group homes and assisted living their entire lives because their lives are significantly better, there are fewer societal ills and its cheaper for cosiety over the long run but I have heard of programs to give these kids the college experience through "college camps" when they are never going to attend college ever.

And i still have a problem with the extra time on things like the SATs or letting kids take take home tests when everyone else has to finish the test in 3 hours in a classroom environment.

I'm glad that medications worked FOR YOUR SON. I don't believe that medications are the answer for everybody, though.

That is NOT to say that some day we won't try medications again but that day is not today. Base on the side effects we saw from the one medication we tried (Focalin) we're just not eager to go there again.

Are all these medicines bascially the same? If you can reduce or eliminate the disability with a pill, then why wouldn't you keep trying every available option until you found one that worked or you ran out of options. You can always always discontinue the ones that have bad reactions, can't you?

I understand your reluctance, given the reaction he had. That sounds like a very scary and traumatic time. It isn't fair to judge all medications based on the experience of one, because different medications act in different ways. There's no reason to think that your son will have an equally violent reaction to another drug, or a different dose. Just as you've discovered that the school system's attitude of "one size fits all" is inadequate and unfair to your son, so is the opposing attitude of "no size fits no one." My son was, and still is an enigma to us at times, but to the clinicians he sees, and the researchers I've talked to, he is somewhat familiar to them. It has helped us to tap into that feeling of familiarity and with their guidance, try different things (not just medication) until we found something that worked.

While I respect your decision and belief that drugs are not for everyone, I have also seen a lot of people needlessly suffer by foregoing medication. Those who eventually agreed to take medication benefited.

You're right, of course, but from my understanding every single drug that can be prescribed for ADHD has the potential for that kind of reaction, though.

It also didn't help that Slim has a very strong gag reflex, so with the Focalin we hd to break open the capsule, pour the meds into a spoonful of applesauce or pudding or whatever. It made the food taste disgusting (naturally) and eventually it got to the point where I practically had to sit on him and force the medication into his mouth. He's a LOT stronger than I am and a lot of times, he would spit the medicine right back at me instead of swallowing it. So I never really knew how much of his dose he was getting.

We've been doing behavior modification and that seems to be working, thank goodness.

[SticksAndString]

Kids with autism spectrum difficulties often just don't get it and don't get it and don't get it ... until one day they DO! And that is why we keep on trucking.

Exactly. Writing is one of those things that Slim has always struggled with and for a very long time. For some reason, when he saw a lower case "e", his brain processed it as a circle with a horizontal line across the middle which is how he wrote it as well. When he FINALLY got that it was NOT a full circle with a line straight across the center last summer, I cheered.

Are all these medicines bascially the same? If you can reduce or eliminate the disability with a pill, then why wouldn't you keep trying every available option until you found one that worked or you ran out of options. You can always always discontinue the ones that have bad reactions, can't you?

Essentially, yes they are. They may be made from different base components but Ritalin, Adderral and most ADHD meds are stimulants. You could essentially get the same effect from giving the kid a cup of joe (and in fact, I know somebody who is also anti-meds who slips her kid some espresso with her morning cocoa).

[Damuri Ajashi]

Well, then I don't really see abuse (there will always be fraud and we should make the consequences of such fraud lifechanging for these rich kids and their parents will stop it toot sweet), now I wonder if we waste resources on what are sadly hopeless cases.

Where does society's responsibility to pay for this stuff end? I think it ends when the cost exceeds the long term societal benefit. I suppose I might feel differently if it was my kid but I think objectively we have to weigh benefits and burdens (including (to some extent) the benefit to the parents).