People Scaming Your Tax Refunds

[AndyLee]

I was listening to the news last night and evidently the latest scam is people get a hold of your social security number and file a tax return. They get the money and you get screwed.

The news says you can clear it up but it may take up to a year to do it.

I don't know if this is just more paranoid blather or real. First question is how could you prevent it? I really don't understand how the scammers are doing it?

I am not looking for a how to guide, but can somneone give me a jist of how this would work?

[Moonlitherial]

To prevent it file your return early.

[leahcim]

I would be wondering how the scammer could possibly do this anonymously. Is there a little-known option where the IRS gives you your refund as an envelope of unmarked small bills dropped off in a garbage can in a local park?

It seems like any of the usual options, direct deposit or cheque, would have a pretty solid paper trail to the person who did the scamming when it was challenged later.

[chrisk]

I was also wondering - how do you file a tax return in somebody else's name without having access to their income documentation forms? Or do they just make up some numbers that would get them a decent return, and even if the proper person files an adjustment, they'd be out for the amount of money 'returned' to the scammer's address?

It'd be funny if the IRS came to the scammer's address to audit the person. ;)

[gaffa]

It happens.

My brother's girlfriend's parents were in the same nursing home. The place used SSNs to keep track of the residents (always a bad idea). The Nigerians hired by the place filed false tax returns on both of them, getting refunds of nearly $300,000, electronically deposited.

The Nigerians were eventually caught and deported, but as the money was already gone, my brother's girlfriend was forced to pay it all back by the IRS. She's on the verge of losing her home.

[DiosaBellissima]

The Nigerians were eventually caught and deported, but as the money was already gone, my brother's girlfriend was forced to pay it all back by the IRS. She's on the verge of losing her home.

Whoa, she got terrible tax representation advice. Sure, she's technically responsible for that money, but no halfway decent tax representative in the world would have advised her to just pay it- there are lots of other options.

[Voyager]

It happens.

My brother's girlfriend's parents were in the same nursing home. The place used SSNs to keep track of the residents (always a bad idea). The Nigerians hired by the place filed false tax returns on both of them, getting refunds of nearly $300,000, electronically deposited.

The Nigerians were eventually caught and deported, but as the money was already gone, my brother's girlfriend was forced to pay it all back by the IRS. She's on the verge of losing her home.
This doesn't sound very plausible to me. First, a refund of $300K requires that you've paid the IRS $300K - at least. They really never figured out the residents didn't? Plus it would involve a gigantic one year income spike. And Nigerians?
I've read about real scams, including I think paying someone to minimize or file your taxes for you, and signing over your real return, but I'd want a cite for this story.

Not to mention that I don't get why your brother's girlfriend would be responsible for the debts of her parents.

[robert_columbia]

Whoa, she got terrible tax representation advice. Sure, she's technically responsible for that money, but no halfway decent tax representative in the world would have advised her to just pay it- there are lots of other options.

How in the world would she be technically responsible? I'm in disbelief that such a thing could ever be the case. Was the girlfriend a co-conspirator?

[DiosaBellissima]

How in the world would she be technically responsible? I'm in disbelief that such a thing could ever be the case. Was the girlfriend a co-conspirator?

When it comes to cases of identity theft, the IRS generally has a "collect first, prove it wasn't you later" plan of attack. You can be working out the identity theft or fraud portion in one department, but the collection department will come down on you like a hammer regardless. That could mean levying the vast majority of your pay check, cleaning out your bank accounts, etc. Until the theft/fraud portion is resolved (IF it can ever even be resolved), you are considered to be a tax debtor who will have an active collection case. It's illogical, but that's how it happens.

[DiosaBellissima]

Not to mention that I don't get why your brother's girlfriend would be responsible for the debts of her parents.

And this. Tax debts usually die with the individual who earned 'em.

[Rachellelogram]

levying the vast majority of your pay check
Notwithstanding all the other holes in that story, isn't there a limit on garnishing? Something like 25% of your gross?

[Czarcasm]

It happens.

My brother's girlfriend's parents were in the same nursing home. The place used SSNs to keep track of the residents (always a bad idea). The Nigerians hired by the place filed false tax returns on both of them, getting refunds of nearly $300,000, electronically deposited.

The Nigerians were eventually caught and deported, but as the money was already gone, my brother's girlfriend was forced to pay it all back by the IRS. She's on the verge of losing her home.And the I.R.S. never questioned that they earned enough money to get back $300,000 yet still lived in a nursing home? I'm sorry, but a story like this begs for a cite.

[Voyager]

And this. Tax debts usually die with the individual who earned 'em.

Not clear the parents are even dead. Plus did the thieves sign the girlfriend's name on the returns? I can see coming down on the taxpayer who was scammed, but on their children?

I don't think the scammer in this story is Nigerian, and I don't mean gaffa.

[Kaio]

Even allowing that collections would be bringing down the hammer before the fraud was cleared up... wouldn't the fact that the Nigerians were deported indicate that the fraud was pretty clear at this point? Along with the rest of the points about the ridiculous numbers -- a quick comparison to the last few tax returns would seem to indicate that something shady is going on.

With numbers that big I'd be really surprised that the IRS didn't automatically flag it well before they got to the point of sending any money.

[Mr. Accident]

Notwithstanding all the other holes in that story, isn't there a limit on garnishing? Something like 25% of your gross?

It's different with the IRS. They can garnish up to 90% of your gross. They can also have a lein put on your home and land, then have that lein foreclosed on in order to get their money.

Thing might have changed in the past 5 years, but that's how it was when my mom's ex-boyfriend ran afoul of them.

[LurkerInNJ]

The IRS has a special unit that deals with tax issues that have resulted from identity theft. They do what they call a resolution of the account along with the criminal prosecution, and her parents wouldn't have owed a red cent.

She's B.S.ing you gaffa. There is no way her parents through the process and then the IRS goes after a third party who magically agrees to pay a 300k debt that isn't theirs. Not to mention, the IRS doesn't have the authority to go after people who aren't on the return either.

[DiosaBellissima]

Notwithstanding all the other holes in that story, isn't there a limit on garnishing? Something like 25% of your gross?

Not for the IRS. In California, the state agency is limited to 25%, but the IRS can take as much as they darn well please. Ok, that's not true- they are supposed to allow for paltry living standards based on the number of exemptions you're claiming on your W4. This is the garnishment chart from the IRS (and this is for wage garnishments, not bank levies. (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1494.pdf) So, looking at that, if you're single, all alone, and get paid biweekly, they'll garnish everything but $375 per check. This is, of course, without any intervention or contact from either you or a representative on your behalf.

A bank levy, otoh, just takes out either 1:the full amount owed or 2: the full amount in your bank account, if it's less than the full levy amount. So, for example, let's say you owe the IRS $300,000. In your bank account, you have $25,000 sitting in a savings account. They'll levy your account for up to $300,000, but since you only have $25,000- they'll take just that. I see people all the time get levied for huge sums of money. . . but the IRS only gets $5 or $10 because that's all they leave standing in their accounts.

As I mentioned, things are more complicated on a state level. In California, the Franchise Tax Board can take up to 25%. . . BUT if you owe child support, that complicates it further. If you are paying back child support via court order and it is taking more than 25% of your check, you can't be expected to pay any back tax via levy until the child support is paid up. BUT if you are, for instance, paying 18% of your check toward back child support, the most the FTB can garnish you for is 7% of check. I hope I explained that well enough that it makes sense :).


It's different with the IRS. They can garnish up to 90% of your gross. They can also have a lein put on your home and land, then have that lein foreclosed on in order to get their money.

Thing might have changed in the past 5 years, but that's how it was when my mom's ex-boyfriend ran afoul of them.

This is more or less right, except they VERY rarely actually collect on a lien through seizure. The reality is that most folks don't have equity in their homes anyway, so that'd be pretty pointless on the end of the IRS. The real reason they put liens on everything isn't seizure, but just that they can collect when you do sell it (if you don't get it temporarily removed).

[DiosaBellissima]

Even allowing that collections would be bringing down the hammer before the fraud was cleared up... wouldn't the fact that the Nigerians were deported indicate that the fraud was pretty clear at this point? Along with the rest of the points about the ridiculous numbers -- a quick comparison to the last few tax returns would seem to indicate that something shady is going on.

With numbers that big I'd be really surprised that the IRS didn't automatically flag it well before they got to the point of sending any money.

Look, I'm with you. What you're saying makes absolutely logical sense. . . unfortunately, the IRS is notorious for not exactly working well with other government agencies. Or even, hell, one branch of the IRS with another branch. I've seen cases where the fraud division puts holds on accounts, but the collection division still acts.

But you're right: a refund that big would almost certainly flag something. It deviates WAY too far from the average.


If I had to guess what really happened to friend: mom and dad started a shady business under their daughter's name, racked up a huge tax debt, and she had to deal with the repercussions of that. I see it all the time, unfortunately. Why lie? Probably because it's a lot easier to blame a Nigerian scammer than admit your parents tried to fuck you over.

[gaffa]

As I said, her parents were in a nursing home. Her mother was suffering from Alzheimer's, her father from non-Alzheimer's dementia. As neither was legally competent, she had power of attorney for both.

I have copies of the false tax returns. DiosaBellissima is correct, their policy is "collect first, refund later" (if ever). As she had control of their estate, she was responsible for their debts.

The Nigerian, who had been hired as a caregiver at the nursing home, was deported.

She's B.S.ing you gaffa.
Bite me. Every single bit of this is real, happened and is documented.

[gaffa]

If I had to guess what really happened to friend: mom and dad started a shady business under their daughter's name, racked up a huge tax debt, and she had to deal with the repercussions of that. I see it all the time, unfortunately. Why lie? Probably because it's a lot easier to blame a Nigerian scammer than admit your parents tried to fuck you over.
No, the parents had a solid paper products company in Massachusetts that they sold to a larger competitor. When she had to take over their estate, it had assets of over one and a half million dollars. She put them in a highly respected nursing home in Kansas City, Missouri run by the church that her parents had been members of her entire life.

And then her life went to hell.

[LurkerInNJ]

As I said, her parents were in a nursing home. Her mother was suffering from Alzheimer's, her father from non-Alzheimer's dementia. As neither was legally competent, she had power of attorney for both.

I have copies of the false tax returns. DiosaBellissima is correct, their policy is "collect first, refund later" (if ever). As she had control of their estate, she was responsible for their debts.

The Nigerian, who had been hired as a caregiver at the nursing home, was deported.


Bite me. Every single bit of this is real, happened and is documented.


Perhaps she needs a guardian for herself as she doesn't know what she is doing.

Would you care to explain how she ended up at the guarantor for her parents debts with only a POA? Did she cause the debt? Did she co-sign? Standard financial POA's allow you to act on another persons behalf, you don't personally assume the other persons debt.

I think it's more likely she had something to do with it, and is making restitution because the only way she would be personally responsible for that debt is if she participated in the fraud.

Where were these funds deposited? In an account where she has a POA on is what I'm guessing.

Did she also show you the paperwork from the IRS where they declined to resolve her extremely well documented tax fraud issue? I had a tax fraud issue (someone working with my social security number and claiming they were exempt from witholding), and while it took time, lots of form filling and documentation to resolve the issue, it certainly was resolved by the IRS. And they put ALL collection efforts on hold during the investigation.

[gaffa]

Perhaps she needs a guardian for herself as she doesn't know what she is doing.
Again, bite me. The Nigerian, who because of the incompetence of the nursing home, and their moronic insistence on using each patient's SSN on their records - instead of creating their own and protecting this vital bit of information - exposed her parents to becoming victims of fraud by the employees.

Would you care to explain how she ended up at the guarantor for her parents debts with only a POA? Did she cause the debt? Did she co-sign? Standard financial POA's allow you to act on another persons behalf, you don't personally assume the other persons debt.
Cite?

I think it's more likely she had something to do with it, and is making restitution because the only way she would be personally responsible for that debt is if she participated in the fraud.
This cannot be answered properly other than in the Pit.

Where were these funds deposited? In an account where she has a POA on is what I'm guessing.
You haven't got the faintest grasp of the situation, do you?


All of the information on her parents necessary to file fraudulent income tax returns was sitting in the nursing station.
The nursing home did a horrible job of vetting employees.
One of the employees filed fraudulent income tax returns on both her mother and father.
Refunds for both parties were electronically deposited.
When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook.
Employee gets arrested and deported back to Nigeria.


Did she also show you the paperwork from the IRS where they declined to resolve her extremely well documented tax fraud issue? I had a tax fraud issue (someone working with my social security number and claiming they were exempt from witholding), and while it took time, lots of form filling and documentation to resolve the issue, it certainly was resolved by the IRS. And they put ALL collection efforts on hold during the investigation.
Lucky you.

[SpoilerVirgin]

When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook.This is the point that isn't clear. She filed returns for them, and had power of attorney over their finances, so they should be on the hook for any money presumed owned. I can understand the IRS taking all of the parents' assets as restitution, but why are they going after her assets?

Not questioning your story, just trying to understand.

[LurkerInNJ]

You haven't got the faintest grasp of the situation, do you?


All of the information on her parents necessary to file fraudulent income tax returns was sitting in the nursing station.
The nursing home did a horrible job of vetting employees.
One of the employees filed fraudulent income tax returns on both her mother and father.
Refunds for both parties were electronically deposited.
When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook.
Employee gets arrested and deported back to Nigeria.



I think it's you who hasn't grasped the fact that her story is bullshit. You are so invested in it that you can't see obvious truths.

All of the information on her parents necessary to file fraudulent income tax returns was sitting in the nursing station.

That's believable. I personally refuse to write my SSN on forms because of this.

The nursing home did a horrible job of vetting employees.

Not in dispute. It happens.

One of the employees filed fraudulent income tax returns on both her mother and father.

The story is still holding up. No problem yet.

Refunds for both parties were electronically deposited.

Happens a lot. Very popular choice. But you still haven't answered the very important question of who the account owner was, and was it an account covered by the POA? And did she have access to this account?

When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook.

Story falls apart here. When you get the we already have a return and by the way we electronically deposited a 300k refund, that's when you start the process to clear the mess up. Just like the IRS says here

What is identity theft?

Identity theft occurs when someone uses your personal information such as your name, Social Security number (SSN) or other identifying information, without your permission, to commit fraud or other crimes.

How do you know if your tax records have been affected?

Usually, an identity thief uses a legitimate taxpayer’s identity to fraudulently file a tax return and claim a refund. Generally, the identity thief will use a stolen SSN to file a forged tax return and attempt to get a fraudulent refund early in the filing season.

You may be unaware that this has happened until you file your return later in the filing season and discover that two returns have been filed using the same SSN.

Be alert to possible identity theft if you receive an IRS notice or letter that states that:

More than one tax return for you was filed,
You have a balance due, refund offset or have had collection actions taken against you for a year you did not file a tax return, or
IRS records indicate you received wages from an employer unknown to you.
What to do if your tax records were affected by identity theft?

If you receive a notice from IRS, respond immediately. If you believe someone may have used your SSN fraudulently, please notify IRS immediately by responding to the name and number printed on the notice or letter. You will need to fill out the IRS Identity Theft Affidavit, Form 14039.

For victims of identity theft who have previously been in contact with the IRS and have not achieved a resolution, please contact the IRS Identity Protection Specialized Unit, toll-free, at 1-800-908-4490.

Holding a POA's does not make you responsible for the debts of the principal. You want a cite? Try Googling POA and debt responsibility. You have a duty of care, but you do not assume the debts of the principal.

Unless these funds were deposited in an account she had a POA on, she is not on the hook for anything.

Employee gets arrested and deported back to Nigeria.

This would be a crucial and important proof to use in getting the IRS to resolve the issue. I think this fact is escaping you.

Do not tell me to "bite you". Perhaps the women in your life allow you to speak like that to them, but I don't allow that in my life.

[Czarcasm]

I'm zipping through Google, using the words "Nigerian", "$300,000", "scam" and "tax refund". All I've gotten so far is some cases where hundreds of people got scammed for a total of $300,000 or more, but nothing about a single case involving anywhere near that amount of money.

[gaffa]

Refunds for both parties were electronically deposited.

Happens a lot. Very popular choice. But you still haven't answered the very important question of who the account owner was, and was it an account covered by the POA? And did she have access to this account?
The bank account into which the fraudulent returns were deposited were ones set up, owned and controlled by the scammers.

When she files the returns for herself, her mother and her father, the IRS informs her that they have already filed, and she is now on the hook.

Story falls apart here. When you get the we already have a return and by the way we electronically deposited a 300k refund, that's when you start the process to clear the mess up. Just like the IRS says here
The IRS has since figured out that they deposited refund money into a fraudulent account. They don't care.

Holding a POA's does not make you responsible for the debts of the principal. You want a cite? Try Googling POA and debt responsibility.
Cite? A real cite. Are you a tax attorney, or just some random person on the Net?

Unless these funds were deposited in an account she had a POA on, she is not on the hook for anything.
Reality begs to differ.

Employee gets arrested and deported back to Nigeria.

This would be a crucial and important proof to use in getting the IRS to resolve the issue. I think this fact is escaping you.
She has been pursuing this and trying to get this resolved for more than a year.

Do not tell me to "bite you". Perhaps the women in your life allow you to speak like that to them, but I don't allow that in my life.
I'll tell you anything I wish within the rules of this board. This is the woman my brother loves who has been very kind to me and our family. She has been dragged through hell by scammers who stole her parents identity. And you, some random poster whose name I have never seen before, is calling her a liar and a thief. "Bite me" is the very mildest epithet available, and far less than you deserve.

As this place was run by the church to which her parents belonged, she hasn't made a huge stink in the media about it - yet. She is still trying to let them to make it right.

[gaffa]

How does the IRS treat people who have been scammed by others? Singer/songwriter Janis Ian from Performing Songwriter magazine in 1998 (http://www.janisian.com/reading/monumental.php):

The scenario: A phone conversation from Los Angeles, 1986.

The players: My tax attorney, myself, and my IRS collection agent, Mr. Granite. That's his name, honest.

My situation: I've just discovered the accountant I'd been with since the age of fourteen has been keeping two sets of books, and I have unpaid taxes going back to 1979, plus interest and penalties. The IRS says they've spent seven years trying to find me, and are about to put me in jail.

The issue at hand: I've begged my lawyer for the chance to speak with them directly. I'm sure that if I explain the double-entry system, the large amounts of money he's stolen, and the fact that I never knew and am blameless, they'll be reasonable.

The discussion: Me: "Mr. Granite, my name is Janis Ian."

The agent: "F—k you."

Me: "But sir, I'm calling myself to explain all this to you. Also, I'm sole support of my wheelchair-bound mother; you'll leave me enough money every month to continue paying her rent and food, right?"

Mr. Granite: "F—k you. All you people are alike. Legally I have to give you $75 a month and $50 for each dependent. That's it."

The decision: Get off the phone and burst into tears. Hire more lawyers.

The result: I finally finished paying them off this year. We managed to negotiate with Granite's supervisor (Mrs. Bear - do you really think I could make these names up?) and provide minimally for my mother. (Since they couldn't legally take my instruments, I was permitted to sell them and use the money for her support).

The consequences: I lost everything I'd spent the previous 20 years building, and remained in the hole for another thirteen years. The accountant, Sam Weintraub, turned out not to have a license; he died of a brain tumor sometime after telling my lawyers that if we sued, he'd inform Mr. Granite that I'd hidden assets all over the world, and I could then spend the rest of my life trying to convince the IRS otherwise.

What I'd do now: I had always believed that as a second-generation American who'd "made it", my country deserved my full financial support. I'd never hidden assets, cheated on my taxes, or socked away cash for a rainy day. I leave the rest of the thought to you.

My current take: I now know a lot about living like a thief, disappearing at will, and leaving no trail. These are good things for a musician to know.

[Justin_Bailey]

How does the IRS treat people who have been scammed by others? Singer/songwriter Janis Ian from Performing Songwriter magazine in 1998 (http://www.janisian.com/reading/monumental.php):

I totally believe that's how that conversation went coming from the sole witness to J. Edgar Hoover's crossdressing parties.

[gaffa]

I totally believe that's how that conversation went coming from the sole witness to J. Edgar Hoover's crossdressing parties.
She saw a fat man in a dress and thought it was Hoover. He didn't give her his business card.

[SpoilerVirgin]

How does the IRS treat people who have been scammed by others?But this woman wasn't scammed -- her parents were. I still don't understand how the IRS ends up coming after her. Is the house that she might lose her parents' house? Janis Ian may have been scammed, but it was her taxes that the IRS wanted. They weren't trying to get money from her children.

[Czarcasm]

She saw a fat man in a dress and thought it was Hoover. He didn't give her his business card.The party was in the late 70's, and J. Edgar died in 1972.
Neat trick, that.

[gaffa]

But this woman wasn't scammed -- her parents were. I still don't understand how the IRS ends up coming after her.
It's like a mountain "it was there".

Is the house that she might lose her parents' house?
No, she sold her parents house back in Massachusetts. She's been driven into debt paying the IRS back for the money that was fraudulently refunded.

The situation seems to be this: the IRS approved a pair of income tax returns that they should never have approved, and issued a pair of refunds they never should have issued. The people who stole the money are gone. So they get the money back from whoever they can.

[Czarcasm]

It's like a mountain "it was there".


No, she sold her parents house back in Massachusetts. She's been driven into debt paying the IRS back for the money that was fraudulently refunded.

The situation seems to be this: the IRS approved a pair of income tax returns that they should never have approved, and issued a pair of refunds they never should have issued. The people who stole the money are gone. So they get the money back from whoever they can.No, they don't. Since the POA doesn't make her liable for their debt, why are they going after her?

[Czarcasm]

Someone help me out-I can't find anything close to what gaffa claims. Are there any cases out there where the IRS went after someone merely because they had POA when someone else owed the government? How about anything close to owing $300,000?

[LurkerInNJ]

As this place was run by the church to which her parents belonged, she hasn't made a huge stink in the media about it - yet. She is still trying to let them to make it right.

So what you are saying is "was forced to pay it all back by the IRS" and is on the verge of losing her home, but she is such a sweet gal that she doesn't want to make a "huge stink - yet, because ... she is "trying to let them to make it right".

But now she suddenly has "been pursuing this and trying to get this resolved for more than a year." after already having settled the matter by paying back the money???

She sounds like a real catch. Maybe you should marry her. I don't think you would have any trouble at all in convincing her to bite you. Then you could stop begging me to do it. Win Win situation!

[gaffa]

I guess I'll have to put together a web site with all the evidence and post it all here.

And you know what will happen? LurkerInNJ will never respond and will never apologize. And that is the way things go on the Dope.

[LurkerInNJ]

I guess I'll have to put together a web site with all the evidence and post it all here.

And you know what will happen? LurkerInNJ will never respond and will never apologize. And that is the way things go on the Dope.

I'm sure a national news or morning type show would be very interested in airing a segment about two helpless elderly people with dementia who were unknowing victims of a tax refund scam run by Nigerians who were employed by the nursing home they reside in, and then to make matters worse, their daughter was violated by the IRS and is about to lose her home because the IRS "forced" her to pay them 300K because It's like a mountain "it was there" even though it's not her debt, while completely ignoring the fact that these same Nigerians were already arrested AND deported for this very crime.

[LurkerInNJ]

Missed the edit window. Wanted to add It's not like the nursing home would have insurance or anything to cover the scam run by their employees or anything, right?

[grude]

But this woman wasn't scammed -- her parents were. I still don't understand how the IRS ends up coming after her. .

They didn't. BUT......

The IRS could and would put federal tax liens on everything either parent owned, which sounds like it could be several million dollars in property at least(the business and their house/s at least and any bank accounts).

So the daughter could end up mortgaging her own home to keep the business running and pay bills until the whole thing gets settled, why would she do this? Well if you let them just take the property the liens are on they usually sell it for pennies and you don't want your parents millions dissapearing.

[DiosaBellissima]

Cite?


I have Power of Attorney for hundreds of clients with serious tax problems. . . that doesn't mean I am now responsible for their debts. That'd be a really poor business plan, if I may say so myself. I'm not a tax attorney, but I do the same sort of thing (minus the actual court representation-- we do everything administratively). Maybe RandRover can pop in and give you the official tax attorney point of view on this.

And I want to be clear: yes, the IRS does a lot of dick stuff. They sometimes (often times) won't actually halt collection action while fraud is being investigated-- this is doubly true when citizens represent themselves and don't get professional representation.

But Gaffa, I don't know. I hear a lot of insane (yet 100% truthful) stories of IRS mess ups and ill treatment from clients every single day. Every day. The craziest shit that I wouldn't believe if I didn't have the papers in front of my nose. But this doesn't quite pass the sniff test. I mean, it's possible. . . I've heard weirder shit, but the whole POA thing is not how it works.

Now, I would believe that perhaps a Revenue Officer lied to her (and they do that sometimes) and told her she was responsible for her parents' debts, so she better hurry up and pay up. That happens sometimes. But it's just that: a lie. If she believed it and paid it. . . I just hope she had good representation. It doesn't sound like she did, which is unfortunate.

[LurkerInNJ]

They didn't. BUT......

The IRS could and would put federal tax liens on everything either parent owned, which sounds like it could be several million dollars in property at least(the business and their house/s at least and any bank accounts).

So the daughter could end up mortgaging her own home to keep the business running and pay bills until the whole thing gets settled, why would she do this? Well if you let them just take the property the liens are on they usually sell it for pennies and you don't want your parents millions dissapearing.

Wait a sec ... Earlier you said the IRS "forced" her to repay the money. Now you are saying that it was her choice, and they didn't go after her at all. How does that equal "forced"? :confused:

Their assets were over 1.5M, now it's "several million" and the business even after the business had already been sold?

300k has turned into "several million" worth of liens and potential sales of several million dollars of assets for "pennies on the dollar"??? Isn't it usually more in the range of 25% less than market value up to the amount of the lien?

[grude]

Wait a sec ... Earlier you said the IRS "forced" her to repay the money. Now you are saying that it was her choice, and they didn't go after her at all. How does that equal "forced"? :confused:

Their assets were over 1.5M, now it's "several million" and the business even after the business had already been sold?

300k has turned into "several million" worth of liens and potential sales of several million dollars of assets for "pennies on the dollar"??? Isn't it usually more in the range of 25% less than market value up to the amount of the lien?

Sorry I am not the poster, I was just offering a plausible scenario where the GF could end up in debt due to her parents.

My own parents had a federal tax lien and it basically prevents you from doing anything with the property, can't use it as collateral or sell it until the lien is paid off. Tax lawyers advised them NOT to just turn the property over to the IRS because they would sell it far below its actual value, and then they would still owe whatever was left.

[gaffa]

Re-read the thread. As I said earlier, her parent's estate was around 1.5 million when they entered the nursing home. That was after they had sold the business they had run. They also owned a house

As I said, I'll collect all the information. Until then, I'd like to remind people, especially LurkerInNJ that this is a good friend of mine. She is honest, sane and has been through the wringer. Hold off your judgements until you actually get some information, or at least promise me that, when you are proven wrong, you will offer a sincere apology.

[Leaper]

OK, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'm going to assume that the story as told to gaffa is true.

gaffa, do you at least concede that (a) your friend doesn't owe the IRS a thing; (b) that she should not be trying to pay them anything for this particular "debt"; and (c) she should be fighting this hard in both public court and the court of public opinion?

[DiosaBellissima]

Sorry I am not the poster, I was just offering a plausible scenario where the GF could end up in debt due to her parents.

My own parents had a federal tax lien and it basically prevents you from doing anything with the property, can't use it as collateral or sell it until the lien is paid off. Tax lawyers advised them NOT to just turn the property over to the IRS because they would sell it far below its actual value, and then they would still owe whatever was left.

Your parents should get a second opinion--- a different and maybe better representative could possibly get the lien temporarily removed so they can sell the property.

And Gaffa, all I'm saying here is that is not how Power of Attorneys work. Debt does not transfer with a Power of Attorney.

[LurkerInNJ]

My own parents had a federal tax lien and it basically prevents you from doing anything with the property, can't use it as collateral or sell it until the lien is paid off.

That's not true. Depending on the circumstances, you can get the lien released or subordinated. That doesn't mean paid off. I deal with this 2 or 3 times a year.

Look at the IRS website for the process
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=201343,00.html

[grude]

That's not true. Depending on the circumstances, you can get the lien released or subordinated. That doesn't mean paid off. I deal with this 2 or 3 times a year.

Look at the IRS website for the process
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=201343,00.html

I remember that for some reason the IRS would not release it in their case(bad lawyer?), it was more than a decade ago in any case and I was a kid at the time.

[Rand Rover]

Yeesh. I think it would be pointless to further discuss the specifics of gaffa's story--here's the bottom line IMHO: after someone gets scammed, it can take some time to get things figured out. Gaffa's friend is still in the middle of the path between "got scammed" and "it got figured out."

Seems like both sides could buy the above and stop worrying about the details.

[filmore]

Article on CNN about this: IRS policies help fuel tax refund fraud, officials say (http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/us/tax-refund-scam/index.html?hpt=hp_c1)