Mad-Men: 5.04 "Signal 30" (open spoilers)

[alphaboi867]

Lane makes an interesting friend.

So Dawn or the mob mistress? Joan is also back to work (or she's still on leave and there's a random flasback to her working).

[Fear Itself]

Nice jacket, Don!

[Fear Itself]

"Do you want to take out your teeth, or shall I knock them out?"

That was great!

[drastic_quench]

This is season five episode five. The season premier counted as both episodes one and two.

[ThelmaLou]

The title refers to this (http://archive.org/details/Signal301959).

Legendary "shock" driving safety film featuring numerous scenes of mutilated cars and injured/dead people and a voiceover lacking in compassion. Produced in cooperation with the Ohio State Highway Patrol and shown to millions of young drivers for over 40 years.

[Fear Itself]

The title refers to this (http://archive.org/details/Signal301959).They showed Signal 30 in my driver's ed class in 1971. There were others: Broken Glass and Red Asphalt come to mind.

[Lightray]

That was an odd episode. I'm not sure what I think about it. Lane was butch, Don was virtuous, and Cosgrove was sort of interesting.

If Pete wasn't still so pathetic I'd not have known what show I was watching. He is totally turning into Don of a few years back, though.

[ThelmaLou]

If Pete wasn't still so pathetic I'd not have known what show I was watching. He is totally turning into Don of a few years back, though.
Unlike Don, Pete is totally physically repulsive in every way (except in the scene at the end in the elevator, he was wearing a very nice suit).

So how about Lane claiming his Victory Kiss--yikes!!

And Roger telling Ken he can't write stories on his own time? WTF? Good for him simply creating a new pseudonym.

I remember the Charles Whitman shooting. We lived in San Antonio, and I had friends who were attending UT Austin at that time. When I went to their graduation a couple of years later, we went up to the top of the Tower where he had fired from. There was a lot of violence in the 1960's, when you look back on it... starting with the Kennedy assassination.

[Mixolydian]

I was expecting a BIFF or a WHAM to go with the cheesy fisticuffs.

Great episode though...have they mentioned where Pete & family live? CT, NJ, LI?

[Lightray]

Unlike Don, Pete is totally physically repulsive in every way (except in the scene at the end in the elevator, he was wearing a very nice suit).
Both Jon Hamm and Vincent Kartheiser are looking a bit dissolute nowadays. Don just looks tired all the time, and Pete has gained weight and I think they've made his hairline look like it's receeded.

[Simplicio]

What was the story behind Cosgrove and Peggy's pact? I don't remember.

[Simplicio]

I remember the Charles Whitman shooting.

I liked that someone got Charles Whitman's last name wrong and Don immediately corrected them.

[hajario]

Pete got shown up for the pussy that he is which people have been clamoring for all season. Don fixed the faucet that he couldn't, the young guy got the Driver's Ed girl and, of course, Lane kicked his ass.

Some really interesting edits in the first half of the show.

[Bridget Burke]

The title refers to this (http://archive.org/details/Signal301959).

Death on the Highway was the one we saw. Will we get to see Pete actually learning to drive--in car full of teenagers? More comedy possibilities there. Seeing his misadventures in this episode was like watching Joffrey getting slapped....

That wasn't just any game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_FIFA_World_Cup)--I can see why Lane got into the spirit. Of course, the other guys at the company went "World Cup, what's that?"...
The 1966 FIFA World Cup, the eighth staging of the World Cup, was held in England from 11 to 30 July. England beat West Germany 4–2 in the final, winning the World Cup for the first time, so becoming the first host to win the tournament since Italy in 1934.

Glad Joan didn't leave the room after Lane kissed her. She opened the door to keep things businesslike--but kept talking to him.....

ETA: A friend of mine had planned to attend UT; she & her dad visited the campus the day Charles Whitman did his thing. So he sent her to the University of Houston, instead....

[Tim R. Mortiss]

That little fisticuffs scene was about the funniest thing I've seen in a long time!

Also - I thought I heard Pete call his wife "Tweety" in the season opener, but wasn't sure that I didn't just imagine it. But he did it again in this ep. More proof that he is turning into Don, who would occasionally call his wife "Birdie."

"He thinks you're a homo!"

Also, apropos of nothing - has anyone else noticed that Lane's wife is played by the same actress who was Ash's love interest in "Army of Darkness"?

[drastic_quench]

Roger got he best line:

I know cooler heads should prevail, but am I the only one who wants to see this?

[Tim R. Mortiss]

Roger got he best line:

I know cooler heads should prevail, but am I the only one who wants to see this?

Roger always gets the best lines! "I don't know about you fellas, but I had Lane all along."

And is it just me, or is Lane sort of a cross between Niles Crane and the Geico Gecko?

[alphaboi867]

Pete got shown up for the pussy that he is which people have been clamoring for all season. Don fixed the faucet that he couldn't, the young guy got the Driver's Ed girl and, of course, Lane kicked his ass.

Some really interesting edits in the first half of the show.

It took me until the scene w/ the girl by the trophy case to realize why Pete was apparently attending a high school class :smack:. I loved watching Pete get is ass handed to him. Loved Joan & Peggy spying from behind the mirror in her office. I liked how the madam casually tried to direct Don to the gay brothel her friend runs. I wonder how pissed off Mrs. Pryce is by all this. On one hand she knows Lane wasn't involved since; he was at home with her that night, and she got the entire story from Jaugar guy's wife. On the other hand she lost a perfectly nice set of couple friends. Joan & Lane have actually have very similiar problems at work; those both have positions which are really hard to describe or explain, but are extremely important to the running of the agency. Not that she'll ever get it, but Joan could handle Lane's job.

[Push You Down]

Am I crazy or did Pete call Don by his real name in the kitchen? I swear he said "Dick, I'll get the tool box."

I thought this episode was pretty much the best so far this season. Funny and sad.

I wasn't surprised at all by Lane kissing Joan, I half expected it in their scene together a few episodes prior.

I do have to say I'm sad to see Peggy regulated to a 3rd tier supporting character. I've been watching season 3 and listening to the commentary tracks and I'm surprised how much emphasis Weiner had on the Peggy and Don relationship in contrast to how it is nearly
non-existant.

[drastic_quench]

Sounds more like a quick "damn."

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Don is dropping bits about his past here and there- growing up on a rural farm, growing up in a whore house. Interesting.

Don Draper wears a suit like no other man.... that sport jacket was an abomination!

[Acsenray]

Pete thinks he has nothing?

[F. U. Shakespeare]

"Whitman"

How weird it must have felt, hearing that hated, dreaded name attached to a mass murder.

[Acsenray]

Don is dropping bits about his past here and there- growing up on a rural farm,

Early in Season 1, there was a dinner scene with Don, Betty, Roger, and maybe Roger's wife in which Roger was fishing for information about Don's past and he noted that he knew that Don must be from a rural area because he sometimes lets a rural accent slip through in his speech.

I still find it weird that New Yorkers consider the suburbs to be "the country."

growing up in a whore house. Interesting.

The Madame is the kind of person that Don has always been truthful with.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Early in Season 1, there was a dinner scene with Don, Betty, Roger, and maybe Roger's wife in which Roger was fishing for information about Don's past and he noted that he knew that Don must be from a rural area because he sometimes lets a rural accent slip through in his speech.

I still find it weird that New Yorkers consider the suburbs to be "the country."



The Madame is the kind of person that Don has always been truthful with.

That's true.

It seems that he's beginning to get comfortable with himself and who he is, maybe for the first time ever.

[ekweizn]

I was expecting a BIFF or a WHAM to go with the cheesy fisticuffs.

Great episode though...have they mentioned where Pete & family live? CT, NJ, LI?

Cos Cob, Connecticut--it featured in the dinner scene this week.

I like how the episode opened with Pete laughing at the gore in the Driver's Ed video and ended with everyone at SCDP laughing at Pete getting his comeuppance.

[corkboard]

"Let's make a baby"- so Don wants to make Megan a mommy? Interesting choice of phrase, if all he really wanted was a quickie by the side of the road.

I liked the differences in fighting stances between Pete and Lane, particularly Lane's "put up your dukes" stance like in old-timey pictures.

"He had chewing gum on his pubis!" My wife kept repeating that on our way up to bed last night. I think it's going to become our new favorite re-quotable line.

[Fear Itself]

The look on the faces of the other partners was priceless. I laughed through that whole scene.

[Jophiel]

I liked the differences in fighting stances between Pete and Lane, particularly Lane's "put up your dukes" stance like in old-timey pictures.
I, like Roger, had Lane from the start. I figured he'd be the type to have taken pugilism in boarding school.

Very much enjoyed this episode. Good mix of character development and humor. And no dream sequences.

[salinqmind]

I was never so glad to see "Handsome" Hansen show up and deflect Pete's coming on to that young high school girl. Loved how the camera focussed in on his muscles and that casual sweater. What a difference between him and Pete, still dressed in his suit n' tie, mistaken for the driving instructor! I wonder if Pete even has any casual clothes he wears out of the office (though he might have gone to driving instruction school directly from work). Pete's suit puts him directly in Squaresville, in with the other 'suits', the older formally dressed businessmen.

What IS it Pete wants? He's like Betty last few seasons, they both have everything they think they wanted (or think they should have wanted in life), but neither of them happy about it.

[Krokodil]

I love those wild paintings in Roger's office. Does anybody recognize them? Kind of like circular zebra stripes.

[Jophiel]

What IS it Pete wants?
He wants everything Don had in Seasons 1-3 and to be as collected and satisfied as Don seemed to be in S1-3.

There's multiple issues with that personal quest.

[ThelmaLou]

It seems that he's [Don] beginning to get comfortable with himself and who he is, maybe for the first time ever.
Why do y'all think this is? He seems to be really in love with Megan. Frankly, I don't see what he sees in her. I think the "let's make a baby" line, though said drunk, expresses his serious, old-fashioned, husband/wife love for her. I wish I liked her more, but she seems air-headed, capricious, shallow, and manipulative (though sort of innocently, the way a wife of that time was expected to be). I mean, she's no Joan, and I want someone of Joan's depth for Don. But whatever. Clearly there is strong physical chemistry between Don and Megan--maybe that's what he needs to feel anchored and secure, not intellectual/emotional bonding.

Megan's way of moving is all slithery, like a slinky made of Jell-o. And I wish she'd keep her lipstick within the boundaries of her lips. Also don't like her hair. Hehe. :p

[ThelmaLou]

I, like Roger, had Lane from the start. I figured he'd be the type to have taken pugilism in boarding school.
I thought so, too, and I think this proved to be true. Or maybe he got some training in the army.

[Prelude to Fascination]

Slattery did another bang-up job in directing this week. Although I'll admit I couldn't wrap my head around Pete's driver's ed scenes at first--they cut to him in bed, when he first heard the faucet dripping. I thought he was fantasizing about picking up a high school girl, and it wasn't until almost the end of the episode when I realized what it was about...

By the way, the film I remember seeing in driver's ed was called Mechanized Death.

I smiled when Joan simply opened the door and sat back down. Lane's line should've been an understanding smile and "You are special," with the understanding that the kiss is forgotten, but now they have a bond.

Just a damned good episode.

[John Mace]

This show just doesn't miss. Great episode, as usual, although I have also noticed the relegation of Peggy to more of a supporting role. The fight scene was priceless.

[Gangster Octopus]

Did anyone else notice the Joan-ishness of Roger's "date"?

[ThelmaLou]

Slattery did another bang-up job in directing this week. Although I'll admit I couldn't wrap my head around Pete's driver's ed scenes at first--they cut to him in bed, when he first heard the faucet dripping. I thought he was fantasizing about picking up a high school girl, and it wasn't until almost the end of the episode when I realized what it was about...
What's your sense of what it was about?

Although I have also noticed the relegation of Peggy to more of a supporting role.
I suspect that's temporary.

Did anyone else notice the Joan-ishness of Roger's "date"?
Yeah, baby.

[Prelude to Fascination]

What's your sense of what it was about?


I was afraid it was another dream/fantasy. We've seen Pete become more and more slimy, and we know he's not really happy being married to Trudy, so I simply thought he'd lowered himself to fantasizing about high school girls. He's not that much older than they are (Don wishing he were with a high school girl would be way over the line, Pete, on the other hand, would be creepy and wrong, but not as wrong, IMO).

[Christopher Robin Davies]

I was afraid it was another dream/fantasy. We've seen Pete become more and more slimy, and we know he's not really happy being married to Trudy, so I simply thought he'd lowered himself to fantasizing about high school girls. He's not that much older than they are (Don wishing he were with a high school girl would be way over the line, Pete, on the other hand, would be creepy and wrong, but not as wrong, IMO).

Are you sure Pete isn't that much older than high school girls? When the show started it was 1960 and now it is 1966. In the first season he was at least a year out of college, if not two or three, so he must be at least 27 and perhaps as old as 30.

[John Mace]

What was the story behind Cosgrove and Peggy's pact? I don't remember.
Perhaps it's that he's the father of her child. Her sister is raising him.

[Gangster Octopus]

Pete is stuck between two eras, he grew up and in the testosterone fueled era that Don and Roger find themselves so comfortable in, but he also has somewhat more progressive sensibilities about certain things. So on the one hand he could care less about someone's race or religion when it comes to business, he tolerates drinking at work but isn't really a fan of the two martini lunch. On the other hand he longs for the kind of carefree-ness that in his mind he imagines Don has. For folks like Don and Roger they can meld their business a pleasure almost seamlessly (Don has literally done it), but Pete can't, they are at odds.

[ThelmaLou]

Perhaps it's that he's [Cosgrove] the father of her [Peggy] child. Her sister is raising him.
Pete Campbell is the father of Peggy's child, not Cosgrove

Cosgrove said to Peggy, "If I go somewhere else, you're going with me." That must be the pact, right? Don't remember when it came about.

[Prelude to Fascination]

Are you sure Pete isn't that much older than high school girls? When the show started it was 1960 and now it is 1966. In the first season he was at least a year out of college, if not two or three, so he must be at least 27 and perhaps as old as 30.

I took that into account, assuming Pete's at least 27. All I'm saying is I thought Pete was fantasizing about HS girls. In the show's universe, no one else would know, and Pete would go on. As it's a show, it could be used to show us one more step in the decline of Pete Campbell. But since he didn't get the girl, it's not so bad. As it wasn't a fantasy, but was a real driver's ed class, it served the same purpose: he hit on a HS girl and failed when "Handsome" showed up.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but from a TV audience POV, I don't think it's so bad to show an adult character like Pete fantasizing about talking a HS girl into a date...because the end result is he failed in his attempt, so it's not like he's even fantasizing about being a pedophile--he could be missing his youth, knowing that while he's growing up with more responsibility (wife, kids, house in the suburbs, you know, the American Dream), there's a part of him that doesn't want to grow up. Or conversely, a part of him that can assert his manhood to a younger, more naive person. Sort of like he did with the hooker, only with a HS girl, she'd be more genuinely impressed with his money, power and stature, rather than a hooker, who's paid to be impressed.

My bottom line is I was glad it wasn't a dream or fantasy, because I thought that would've been weak.

[corkboard]

Perhaps it's that he's the father of her child. Her sister is raising him.

Huh? Pete is the father of Peggy's child, not (Ken) Cosgrove.

[Push You Down]

Perhaps it's that he's the father of her child. Her sister is raising him.

.......Huh?

[DianaG]

Also, Peggy's sister is not raising her child. The child was placed for outside adoption.

[SaharaTea]

Why do y'all think this is? He seems to be really in love with Megan. Frankly, I don't see what he sees in her. I think the "let's make a baby" line, though said drunk, expresses his serious, old-fashioned, husband/wife love for her. I wish I liked her more, but she seems air-headed, capricious, shallow, and manipulative (though sort of innocently, the way a wife of that time was expected to be). I mean, she's no Joan, and I want someone of Joan's depth for Don. But whatever. Clearly there is strong physical chemistry between Don and Megan--maybe that's what he needs to feel anchored and secure, not intellectual/emotional bonding.

Megan's way of moving is all slithery, like a slinky made of Jell-o. And I wish she'd keep her lipstick within the boundaries of her lips. Also don't like her hair. Hehe. :p
I don’t dislike Megan as much as everyone else seems to. In fact I think she’s quite intelligent and capable. But they clearly have generational differences which will unravel the marriage eventually. And despite his best efforts, I don’t see Don staying faithful to her. Megan won’t put up with infidelity as long as Betty did.

[Push You Down]

The thing I think we're all looking forward to is what event will be big enough to trigger Don to fall back into old patterns.

Meaghan cheating or the destruction of S.C.D.P?

[Enderw24]

There was a line in there during the car park scene, where Megan uttered something about not being able to have a baby. It was glossed over by Don as "I don't want to have a kid right now," but I think it literally meant that Megan cannot have kids and she knows this.

[Jophiel]

Cosgrove said to Peggy, "If I go somewhere else, you're going with me." That must be the pact, right? Don't remember when it came about.
I don't remember the pact prior to this episode and assumed it must have been a "between calendar pages" event when SCDP was floundering between last season and this one. If one got an in with a new firm, they'd try to bring along the others.

[Pashnish Ewing]

There was a line in there during the car park scene, where Megan uttered something about not being able to have a baby. It was glossed over by Don as "I don't want to have a kid right now," but I think it literally meant that Megan cannot have kids and she knows this.I got the same vibe. From what I remember, Don said "Let's make a baby" and Megan said "That's impossible" (with a bit of an eyeroll).

[AuntiePam]

The chewing gum on the pubis -- anyone else remember a movie or TV show where something similar happened ? I do, but I can't place it.

So, Pete never learning to drive -- that means he's never made out in a car. That explains a lot.

[Nunzio Tavulari]

...I don't think it's so bad to show an adult character like Pete fantasizing about talking a HS girl into a date...because the end result is he failed in his attempt, so it's not like he's even fantasizing about being a pedophile...The girl is talking about what college she'll be attending, making Pete far from a pedophile. She may not be 18 but there are fewer years between them than Don & Megan.

[Christopher Robin Davies]

There was a line in there during the car park scene, where Megan uttered something about not being able to have a baby. It was glossed over by Don as "I don't want to have a kid right now," but I think it literally meant that Megan cannot have kids and she knows this.

I took it to mean "I do not want to have children at this time, and you know this very well."

[zagloba]

I got the same vibe. From what I remember, Don said "Let's make a baby" and Megan said "That's impossible" (with a bit of an eyeroll).Maybe she's just on the pill.

[Acsenray]

I don't know why, but I was absolutely fuming during the scene when Cynthia was spilling the beans about Ken's writing on the side.

In my mind, I was screaming at the TV, "Shut up! Shut up! You stupid fucking c**ting moron! You're going to fuck it all up!"

What the fuck was wrong with her? Ken had obviously told her not to talk about it, but she just charged right ahead. What the fuck was going through her head?

[drastic_quench]

I don't know why, but I was absolutely fuming during the scene when Cynthia was spilling the beans about Ken's writing on the side.

In my mind, I was screaming at the TV, "Shut up! Shut up! You stupid fucking c**ting moron! You're going to fuck it all up!"

What the fuck was wrong with her? Ken had obviously told her not to talk about it, but she just charged right ahead. What the fuck was going through her head?

I know! Wasn't theirs the only issue-free marriage on the show? --if only for lack of screen time, I guess.

[Acsenray]

I know! Wasn't theirs the only issue-free marriage on the show? --if only for lack of screen time, I guess.

I don't know about issue-free, but the marriage seems not to be idiot-free, that's for sure.

She was so geared up to brag about Ken that she just couldn't help herself and came this close to ending his writing career. Fuck, I wanted to slap my hand over her mouth and throw her out of the room.

[Christopher Robin Davies]

I don't know why, but I was absolutely fuming during the scene when Cynthia was spilling the beans about Ken's writing on the side.

In my mind, I was screaming at the TV, "Shut up! Shut up! You stupid fucking c**ting moron! You're going to fuck it all up!"

What the fuck was wrong with her? Ken had obviously told her not to talk about it, but she just charged right ahead. What the fuck was going through her head?

I missed the beginning of the episode. Are we shown Ken asking her not to talk about his writing? Anyway I can forgive the mistake. It was clearly made because she loves his writing so much and thinks everyone in the world should know her husband is a genius. Her enthusiam got the better of her and there are worse things. One thing I do wish is that Ken had responded to Roger's veiled threats the way he did at the end of last season by pointing out how much of the firm's business he had brought in. Admittedly that might ikely gotten him fired for pissing off Roger. Also she didn't come close to ending his writing career as all he had to do was adopt a new pen name and not tell anyone at the office. If he sells a best-selling novel he'll quit anyway as he works at the agency to support himself only. It is not his life or his dream the way it is Roger or Pete's.

[Push You Down]

I missed the beginning of the episode. Are we shown Ken asking her not to talk about his writing? Anyway I can forgive the mistake. It was clearly made because she loves his writing so much and thinks everyone in the world should know her husband is a genius. Her enthusiam got the better of her and there are worse things. One thing I do wish is that Ken had responded to Roger's veiled threats the way he did at the end of last season by pointing out how much of the firm's business he had brought in. Admittedly that might ikely gotten him fired for pissing off Roger. Also she didn't come close to ending his writing career as all he had to do was adopt a new pen name and not tell anyone at the office. If he sells a best-selling novel he'll quit anyway as he works at the agency to support himself only. It is not his life or his dream the way it is Roger or Pete's.

Yeah, I agree. I got the impression that Ken was embarrassed at the attention NOT upset that his wife was telling his bosses about his 2nd career. I don't get at all why people think she's an idiot. Everyone has known for years that he likes to write fiction.

I did really like how much of the episode got peppered into his new story at the end.

[Eve]

Some of Ken's dialogue threw me: when Pete is showing him the hi-fi and says, "I expect there to be a tiny little orchestra in there," Ken deadpans "that would be amazing." Then Pete says so-and-so "could lie down in that!" and Ken again deadpans, "why would he want to do that?"

It seemed that Ken was being a humorless literalist; one would assume he was just poking Pete with a stick, but that's not how the actor played it at all.

(We saw Signal 30 in driver's ed, too!)

[Acsenray]

I missed the beginning of the episode. Are we shown Ken asking her not to talk about his writing?

No, but it was clear to me from Ken's body language that this was something they had discussed. And it was clear to me from Cynthia's body language that she knew that Ken didn't want her talking about it but that she had decided to go ahead with it anyway.

Anyway I can forgive the mistake.

I don't really consider it a "mistake." It's not like she accidentally let something slip. She was clearly overriding Ken's wishes, because ... because she thought that everyone else would be as impressed by Ken's career as a scifi/fantasy author as she was.

See, that's what makes her an idiot. That she was so bullheaded as to refuse to understand that in the company she was in, those people would not have the same view of Ken's accomplishments as she did.

It was clearly made because she loves his writing so much and thinks everyone in the world should know her husband is a genius. Her enthusiam got the better of her and there are worse things.

There are worse things than to be enthusiastic. But the failure to understand that Ken might have very good reasons not to want his employers to know. Ken lives in a world in which your colleagues are not necessarily your friends. Cynthia is either extremely naive or willfully stupid not to at least follow Ken's lead on this.

One thing I do wish is that Ken had responded to Roger's veiled threats the way he did at the end of last season by pointing out how much of the firm's business he had brought in.

From Ken's reaction to Roger's lecture, it seemed pretty clear to me that Ken didn't have as strong a hand as he did before. Ken's expression to me said, "Yeah, my work has slipped a bit lately."

Also she didn't come close to ending his writing career as all he had to do was adopt a new pen name and not tell anyone at the office.

And maybe she'll spill the beans again?

If he sells a best-selling novel he'll quit anyway as he works at the agency to support himself only. It is not his life or his dream the way it is Roger or Pete's.

It doesn't matter what dreams anyone has. For now, Ken needs his job and he needs his avocation. And it's Ken's to boast about if he wants to, not Cynthia's.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Didn't see it that way- the deliberate nature of it. I agree he was feeling awkward that she was telling. I can imagine him telling her not to tell, but I thought she just thought he was being modest. I don't think she understood the problem.

[Acsenray]

Then Pete says so-and-so "could lie down in that!"

It was Wilt Chamberlain, wasn't it? Didn't look big enough for him to me.

[Push You Down]

Didn't see it that way- the deliberate nature of it. I agree he was feeling awkward that she was telling. I can imagine him telling her not to tell, but I thought she just thought he was being modest. I don't think she understood the problem.

Right, he was just as awkward telling Peggy about his writing and Peggy don't give a shit.

[Christopher Robin Davies]

No, but it was clear to me from Ken's body language that this was something they had discussed. And it was clear to me from Cynthia's body language that she knew that Ken didn't want her talking about it but that she had decided to go ahead with it anyway.



I don't really consider it a "mistake." It's not like she accidentally let something slip. She was clearly overriding Ken's wishes, because ... because she thought that everyone else would be as impressed by Ken's career as a scifi/fantasy author as she was.

See, that's what makes her an idiot. That she was so bullheaded as to refuse to understand that in the company she was in, those people would not have the same view of Ken's accomplishments as she did.



There are worse things than to be enthusiastic. But the failure to understand that Ken might have very good reasons not to want his employers to know. Ken lives in a world in which your colleagues are not necessarily your friends. Cynthia is either extremely naive or willfully stupid not to at least follow Ken's lead on this.



From Ken's reaction to Roger's lecture, it seemed pretty clear to me that Ken didn't have as strong a hand as he did before. Ken's expression to me said, "Yeah, my work has slipped a bit lately."



And maybe she'll spill the beans again?



It doesn't matter what dreams anyone has. For now, Ken needs his job and he needs his avocation. And it's Ken's to boast about if he wants to, not Cynthia's.

I do not understand why you are not willing to call what Cynthia did a mistake. Clearly she was not malicious. It was just poor judgment. Her tone and smile made it clear that she absolutely adored his writing and her enthusiasm got away with her. Also I do not think you can infer as much about their previous communications on the subject from their body language as you are thinking. Ken could just as easily be embarrassed because science fiction and fantasy do not have the best reputation and also because any brief summary of his story would make it sound silly to anyone not a science fiction fan. It is not as if he is writing for the New Yorker or Harper's which would have earned him more acclaim.

As to the strong hand thing: I do not believe Ken has slipped in his work. But he was dealing with Roger who is frankly a numbskull and a drain on the agency but cannot be fired so he might have decided it was too risky to point out again that he has brought more business in than Roger as Roger might fire him out of pique. He, Ken, would want to hold the card of his greater productivity in reserve for a time when he really needs it. Since he so readily abandoned his science-fiction pen name and moved to realistic work it seems likely that he was already thinking of doing so. Why start a right over something he was ending anyway?

[ThelmaLou]

Some of Ken's dialogue threw me: when Pete is showing him the hi-fi and says, "I expect there to be a tiny little orchestra in there," Ken deadpans "that would be amazing."
Then at the end when Ken is writing in bed, he pulls this into his story. I thought that was a very clever connection. It shows how Ken gets his ideas from all over. To have TWENTY stories that someone wants to publish is a huge accomplishment.

[drastic_quench]

Some of Ken's dialogue threw me: when Pete is showing him the hi-fi and says, "I expect there to be a tiny little orchestra in there," Ken deadpans "that would be amazing." Then Pete says so-and-so "could lie down in that!" and Ken again deadpans, "why would he want to do that?"

It seemed that Ken was being a humorless literalist; one would assume he was just poking Pete with a stick, but that's not how the actor played it at all.

(We saw Signal 30 in driver's ed, too!)
The makings of a 60s sci-fi author.

ETA: I dug the Beethoven in the credits clearly being fuzzy from an LP.

[Christopher Robin Davies]

Something else occurs to me. The 45 minutes of this episode that I saw made it seem that it was mostly about Pete. If that is true then Ken's reaction to his dressing-down by Roger is a commentary on Pete's character. Pete would have been exploded at Roger and angry with Trudy and self-pitying of himself and probably gotten into a confrontation he could not win. Ken by contrast acted like he was chastened by the rebuke but is neither self-pitying nor angry and does not go off on his wife. Instead he solves the problem by changing his pen name and genre which as I said above he was probably already trying to do. Ken is the one sane (or at least emotionally healthy and mature) man at the agency. That is why he is not a main character by the way: not enough drama but plenty of commentary on the self-destructiveness of Pete and Don.

[drastic_quench]

Well, he's from rural Vermont.

[alphaboi867]

Are you sure Pete isn't that much older than high school girls? When the show started it was 1960 and now it is 1966. In the first season he was at least a year out of college, if not two or three, so he must be at least 27 and perhaps as old as 30.

IIRC Pete was 26 in season one, which would make him about 32 this season.

The girl is talking about what college she'll be attending, making Pete far from a pedophile. She may not be 18 but there are fewer years between them than Don & Megan.

She's a senior in HS; even if she isn't 18 she's probally 17 which is the age of consent in New York.

[Christopher Robin Davies]

IIRC Pete was 26 in season one, which would make him about 32 this season.



She's a senior in HS; even if she isn't 18 she's probally 17 which is the age of consent in New York.

Which makes his hitting on a 17 or 18 year old even skeevier than I was making it.

[Sparky the Wonder Spirit]

The fact that the girl was over the age of consent doesn't make Pete any less of a skeeze; she's still a kid who's half is age.

[Locrian]

Absolutely classic! That's an episode for fans, for sure. I have wanted to pull the large stick Pete has up his ass ever since day one at Sterling Cooper!

Lane is my favorite character this season. The fight scene was the funniest, and I loved Bertram saying, "This is medieval!". HAHAHAHAHA!!! How 'bout Don jumping up to close the drapes?? :D

What else was funny was how all (us) Americans burst out laughing at their fellow partner's "loss of account and his wife called my wife" story! But Pete's responses were incorrigible. Fuck him. You talk like that, pal, you're getting the fisticuffs.

I burst out laughing as hard as hell when Lane kissed Joan. That was the highlight: He tells her she could do his job, she fixes his hair, he leaps at her. Classy Joan stands, slowly opens door and sits back down again, closer to him. Just that said, "I forgive you, but watch it." And Lane with, "I simply can't stop embarrassing myself today," or something like that. PERFECT!

Also loved how Don holds the door for Pete, who Pete verbally accosted in the taxi last night, and sobs. Don didn't hug him either. "What was I supposed to do? Jump in? Punch Lane?" Wish Don wore the plaid blazer to work the next day. :D

Favorite episode so far this season, next to the premiere.

[What the .... ?!?!]

I burst out laughing as hard as hell when Lane kissed Joan. That was the highlight: He tells her she could do his job, she fixes his hair, he leaps at her. Classy Joan stands, slowly opens door and sits back down again, closer to him. Just that said, "I forgive you, but watch it." And Lane with, "I simply can't stop embarrassing myself today," or something like that. PERFECT!



Did I notice a look of disappointment by Lane when Joan didn't lock the door and come back to the couch?

[Nunzio Tavulari]

The fact that the girl was over the age of consent doesn't make Pete any less of a skeeze; she's still a kid who's half is age.But you don't have any problem with Roger & his wife, or Don, or Henry. Why?

[salinqmind]

But you don't have any problem with Roger & his wife, or Don, or Henry. Why?

Because they are all grown women married to those men? And not young high school girls being hit on by a screwup who is hoping to use them to make himself feel better?

[shy guy]

Cynthia was just proud of her husband, and excited for him. I watched the episode for a second time last night. The other dinner guests actually prod Cynthia for most of the information she gives, and they all seem fairly interested. Ken just feels awkward, and Push You Down is right - Ken is always awkward about his writing. He's not angry; he's just embarrassed, and probably mostly because he thinks the others will make fun of him for writing sci-fi. Once he sees that they're actually kind of into it, he seems pretty proud when telling Don about the robot and the space bridge.

It's also worth noting that Pete absolutely hates everything about Ken, and is jealous and resentful of him. He practically blew a gasket when Pete got his first story published, and there's no way he's forgiven Ken for stealing his thunder at SCDP and refusing to schmooze his own father-in-law. Given all that, who knows what Pete actually told Roger about Ken's activities; it probably had very little to do with the reality.

I like Christopher Robin Davies' reading of the situation as a further commentary on Pete. It's kind of like when they were made co-heads of accounts, a position which Ken accepted with aplomb and which Pete responded to by throwing a giant temper tantrum.

Regarding Don and Megan, Don genuinely seemed really happy to see Pete and Trudy's child. He barely gets to see his youngest, and Don always seemed to like being a father, so it doesn't surprise me he wants a child with Megan, who I do think he's genuinely in love with. I don't think it's really hard to see why, either; she's young, beautiful, smart, and good with kids.

[StusBlues]

I don't know why, but I was absolutely fuming during the scene when Cynthia was spilling the beans about Ken's writing on the side.

In my mind, I was screaming at the TV, "Shut up! Shut up! You stupid fucking c**ting moron! You're going to fuck it all up!"

What the fuck was wrong with her? Ken had obviously told her not to talk about it, but she just charged right ahead. What the fuck was going through her head?

Perhaps your relationships have been vastly different from mine, but wives spilling the beans has been par for the course in my life, especially after they get to drinking.

[Bob Ducca]

Because they are all grown women married to those men? And not young high school girls being hit on by a screwup who is hoping to use them to make himself feel better?

Back in the time frame of this show, there wasn't as much of a taboo on men of Pete's age chasing after 17-18 year old girls. Heck, half the pop-songs that came out around that time are about the practice.

[Acsenray]

Perhaps your relationships have been vastly different from mine, but wives spilling the beans has been par for the course in my life, especially after they get to drinking.

Oh, no, there has been plenty of spilling beans on both sides of my marriage, and such experience and its unpleasant fallout informs my reaction. Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Cynthia was just proud of her husband, and excited for him.

Bitter experience has told me that even when you are proud and excited, when you are in the company of business colleagues, you watch what you talk about.

He's not angry; he's just embarrassed, and probably mostly because he thinks the others will make fun of him for writing sci-fi.

Which is even more reason not to bring it up. Being embarrassed in front of your office acquaintances and bosses can have serious consequences.

It's also worth noting that Pete absolutely hates everything about Ken, and is jealous and resentful of him. ...Given all that, who knows what Pete actually told Roger about Ken's activities; it probably had very little to do with the reality.

Yeah, even more reason to keep shtum. Pete is dangerous and vindictive. You don't let that kind of guy in on your personal life, regardless of how proud and excited it makes your spouse.

Because they are all grown women

What's a grown woman? Legal age of consent seems the best measure to me.

married to those men?

The lusting began long before any marriage.

being hit on by a screwup who is hoping to use them to make himself feel better?

You're making them sound even more alike to me.

[shy guy]

One thing I liked about the Lane/Joan scene was Joan's reassurance to Lane that he's not like the other partners. I don't know how true that is, but it has been a running theme this season that it's simply difficult for outsiders to relate to people like Pete and Don, whether it's Megan embarrassing herself at Don's party or Lane's reaction to everything that happened with his friend.

It's something that we actually saw with Ken at the end of last season when he refused to jeopardize his personal relationships for his job. It can be easy to lose sight of the fact that the main characters of the show are all blindly ambitious, miserable, unpleasant basket cases.

[Sparky the Wonder Spirit]

But you don't have any problem with Roger & his wife, or Don, or Henry. Why?

How do you know I don't have any problem with those other guys, exactly? Roger and Don are both generally repulsive scum when it comes to their interactions with women.

I thought Don was a skeeze when he was hitting on Anna's niece last season, and I thought Harry was a skeeze at the Rolling Stone's concert. Middle-aged men hitting on teenaged girls is gross.

[salinqmind]

The ultimate skeeze was drunken horse's ass Roger playing giddyup with one of the twin models, in her underwear, in the office after hours. That was a truly vomitous scene. In real life the actresses were 18. But according to some, that's perfectly fine because they were over the 'age of consent'.

[Prelude to Fascination]

The ultimate skeeze was drunken horse's ass Roger playing giddyup with one of the twin models, in her underwear, in the office after hours. That was a truly vomitous scene. In real life the actresses were 18. But according to some, that's perfectly fine because they were over the 'age of consent'.

Do you have a problem with the actresses performing that scene, or the portrayal of the characters? (By the way, I may or may not disagree with your opinion either way, but will respect it regardless--just to get that out of the way.)

My opinion of the real-life actresses doing that is it's nothing, they're actresses. It's no different than an actor portraying a slave or serial killer. I'm reminded of the answer Werner Klemperer gave when someone asked how he could portray Col. Klink (and I'm paraphrasing from memory, no direct cite): "I'm an actor. It's a part."

Now, what that scene portrays is pretty despicable, vile, and vomitous, because it's degrading to women. That doesn't mean the actresses were any more degraded in real life than Levar Burton was in Roots when he wore a collar around his neck and was "whipped" for the program.

And remember also, Roger was in blackface at his Derby party, which was damned offensive as well in reality, but in the context of the show, it served to portray the character as a real sleazeball, only reinforced by the scene you're offended by (I don't remember which came first, but my point is the character of Roger's a racist, misogynist asshole, but that doesn't mean the actor(s) have to be).

[Acsenray]

There were a lot of degrading things about that scene, probably the actual riding was the worst. I didn't think the girls' ages were a significant issue.

[Push You Down]

And remember also, Roger was in blackface at his Derby party, which was damned offensive as well in reality, but in the context of the show, it served to portray the character as a real sleazeball, only reinforced by the scene you're offended by (I don't remember which came first, but my point is the character of Roger's a racist, misogynist asshole, but that doesn't mean the actor(s) have to be).


...No. The minstrel number at the Derby party was NOT to show Roger as a sleazeball or even a racist. It was partly just one of those classic "Mad Men" things used to be like THIS! moments, but it also was to show how Don and Pete were different from the others in attendance. They were the only two not laughing along. Arguably for all their own issues those two are the most progressive male thinkers on the show.

[Bob Ducca]

It was Wilt Chamberlain, wasn't it? Didn't look big enough for him to me.

I think the exchange was a bit of a wink to us viewers with knowledge of the future. Why would Wilt Chamberlain want to lay down? I can think of 20,000 reasons. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_life_of_Wilt_Chamberlain#Love_life_and_.E2.80.9C20.2C000_women.E2.80.9D_claim)

[Acsenray]

Lying down inside a stereo cabinet doesn't work as a "has a lot of sex" joke to me.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Lying down inside a stereo cabinet doesn't work as a "has a lot of sex" joke to me.

Ditto. It was simply Pete bragging about how big it was, just because bigger was better. Wilt Chamberlain was the epitome of "big", so it was natural to compare it to him. He was

[ftg]

Peggy is a writer. She clearly wants to write more than just ad copy. Some envy and such over Cosgrove's success was quite visible. There is a hint that this might encourage her to start writing on the side. She seemed to like the SF that Cosgrove wrote. Could she actually end up being a rare (especially in the 1960s) SF writer?

They brought up Pete's gun. He is on yet another down cycle. I think they are implying he might go postal, but I don't think they will actually do that.

Pete thinks he's God's gift to the universe. Everybody must respect and admire him. All women must want to offer themselves to him. In his mind, he is perfect.

He is not without some skills and such, so he's not a total loser, but the gap between his expectations and reality come thru from time to time. This season is building on that.

No Betty, no Sally.

I was wondering last week, when I at first thought the Chicago killer was Whitman, if they'd play with that. Just a little bit this week. What if Dick Whitman was related to Charles Whitman and there was a news report mentioning his relatives. And what if Pete sees it? Or Betty?

[Sampiro]

The chewing gum on the pubis -- anyone else remember a movie or TV show where something similar happened ? I do, but I can't place it.



It was a plot point in the novel The Lonely Polygamist a couple of years ago.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Pete thinks he's God's gift to the universe. Everybody must respect and admire him. All women must want to offer themselves to him. In his mind, he is perfect.



The scene with the prostitute, as she's running through various 'personas' was brilliant. I thought he'd like the 'innocent virgin' one, given his attraction to the student, but clearly it's the 'master of his world' bit that gets him going.

[Gangster Octopus]

Ditto. It was simply Pete bragging about how big it was, just because bigger was better. Wilt Chamberlain was the epitome of "big", so it was natural to compare it to him. He was

It was also a reminder of how nowadays everything is smaller.

[Christopher Robin Davies]

Peggy is a writer. She clearly wants to write more than just ad copy. Some envy and such over Cosgrove's success was quite visible. There is a hint that this might encourage her to start writing on the side. She seemed to like the SF that Cosgrove wrote. Could she actually end up being a rare (especially in the 1960s) SF writer?

They brought up Pete's gun. He is on yet another down cycle. I think they are implying he might go postal, but I don't think they will actually do that.

Pete thinks he's God's gift to the universe. Everybody must respect and admire him. All women must want to offer themselves to him. In his mind, he is perfect.

He is not without some skills and such, so he's not a total loser, but the gap between his expectations and reality come thru from time to time. This season is building on that.

No Betty, no Sally.

I was wondering last week, when I at first thought the Chicago killer was Whitman, if they'd play with that. Just a little bit this week. What if Dick Whitman was related to Charles Whitman and there was a news report mentioning his relatives. And what if Pete sees it? Or Betty?

I do not believe that will happen, but I wish to point out that Bert, Megan, and Faye also know Don's true identity.

[shy guy]

Peggy is a writer. She clearly wants to write more than just ad copy. Some envy and such over Cosgrove's success was quite visible.
I didn't get that at all. She was just irked when she thought Ken was seeing potential clients behind her back. She was interested in Ken's writing once she found out what was going on, but I think that's just because she likes Ken and she's curious about things generally. I don't think we know that she's written a single thing outside of ad copy, and I don't think she has that ambition.

The thing about Pete is that while he's a slimy, egotistical jerk, he's not a total loser. In business matters, he's right most of the time. SCDP wouldn't be around if it wasn't for him, and he's not wrong about things like Roger being useless, the benefits of advertising to blacks, doing business with the Japanese, or Lane not being able to handle sealing the deal with his friend.

[Tim R. Mortiss]

Ditto. It was simply Pete bragging about how big it was, just because bigger was better. Wilt Chamberlain was the epitome of "big", so it was natural to compare it to him. He was

That scene had me tripping down memory lane. My dad had a virtually identical stereo, and he always bragged about what a beautiful piece of furniture it was. He didn't care much about the sound quality when he played his Mantovani records.

[Pashnish Ewing]

I didn't get that at all. She was just irked when she thought Ken was seeing potential clients behind her back.Not potential clients, but potential future employers.

[Exapno Mapcase]

This was a great episode, especially in contrast to last week's which might have been the worst ever. As usual, we got lots of little references between scenes, the best of which was the story of the robot unfastening the bolt because that's the only free action in his life and the valve tightening/loosening scenes with Pete and Don. Pete is too tightly wound and Don is finally beginning to loosen up. And humiliation is the order of the day for almost everybody - Pete, Laine, the English guy, Ken, their wives, the prostitutes.

Oddest line was from Don, who talked about having grown up in a whorehouse. That's not what we know. His mother was a prostitute but he was brought up on a farm. Maybe that's where he spent his missing years and that's foreshadowing for future developments.

As for hitting on the high school girl. We're talking about a time when the average age of first marriage for women was 20. Marrying straight out of high school was the norm. Society getting more permissive only fed into that and the attitude here that it's skeevy for older men to think about nubile (which means of marriageable age) girls is something newer than 1966. That they weren't married would have been more condemned than her age. Just like Jerry Lee Lewis' third wife was far more condemned for being his cousin than for being 13.

Ken's writing f&sf felt wrong. You can't imagine today how much everybody looked down at the f&sf magazines. Nobody who had been published in Harper's would condescend to that level, even if his writing was as Vonnegutian as it was made out to be. I can't think of a single case of that happening. That's more anachronistic than anything else in the episode.

Wilt Chamberlain was 7'1". He wouldn't fit.

[Push You Down]

Peggy is a writer. She clearly wants to write more than just ad copy.

I'm going to trot out this old chestnut....Cite?

[Sampiro]

i don't know why, but i was absolutely fuming during the scene when cynthia was spilling the beans about ken's writing on the side.


"Cynthia!"

[Acsenray]

Yes that was hilarious. I really like Megan.

(What happened to all the capitalization in your quote from my post?)

[Sampiro]

Yes that was hilarious. I really like Megan.

(What happened to all the capitalization in your quote from my post?)

Transfered like that for some reason- I didn't change it.

I loved that it turns Megan on seeing Don do handyman work.

Have they ever mentioned Don growing up in a whorehouse before? His bio-mother was a prostitute, but he was raised by the Whitmans on a farm so I was wonderingi f that was a lie or if his stepmother and 'uncle' (who he claimed he liked) were in the biz.

[Stoid]

And Roger telling Ken he can't write stories on his own time? WTF? Good for him simply creating a new pseudonym.


Does this have any basis in real life, or was this plucked from someone's butt? On what planet...?

[Christopher Robin Davies]

Does this have any basis in real life, or was this plucked from someone's butt? On what planet...?

Roger essentially told Ken that he could not moonlight. Not unheard of though unreasonable in this case. We are not allowed to moonlight on my job and we have told a freelance writer who worked here that writing was included in that.

[hajario]

Does this have any basis in real life, or was this plucked from someone's butt? On what planet...?

Not at all. Most professionals working for a corporation, as part of their contract, have to follow rules involving outside employment. Usually they aren't that harsh but it's certainly within the realm of possibility. He's not telling him that he can't write. He's telling him that he can't have a second career.

[Bleach23]

I thought Peggy was mainly upset about Ken’s writing because she feels she needs to have a backup plan. SCDP is still a new agency that could fail. Since having a female copy writer is still a fairly new and uncommon practice she may think Ken could help put in a good word for her if he left.

I also found Ken’s story about the robot and the bridge fascinating. I think the story was somewhat about his feelings for his own career. That he feels stuck in a confined position where he has no real authority (he can just tighten or loosen the screw).

[Gangster Octopus]

I also found Ken’s story about the robot and the bridge fascinating. I think the story was somewhat about his feelings for his own career. That he feels stuck in a confined position where he has no real authority (he can just tighten or loosen the screw).

i wonder if it was a bit of foreshadowing, he could, if he felt like, simply "loosen a bolt" at SCDP and the whole thing could fall apart.

[Shalmanese]

Based on the timeline, Ken wrote the story just before meeting his fiancee so it's plausible that he wrote it while working at the imploding Sterling Cooper before joining SCDP. I interpreted it as Ken working through his emotions of feeling powerless and mindlessly executing the orders of an out of touch executive team that was unwittingly destroying the company. When he interviewed at SCDP, he was clearly unhappy with the direction of the old Sterling Cooper.

[Bleach23]

Interesting Gangster, I hadn’t thought about it like that but you might be right.

[Sampiro]

When I was working in Georgia, early 2002, some brainstorm legislator tried to push through a 'moonlighting' bill that would have given the University System of Georgia a percentage of the profits for any writings or consulting or other for-profit endeavors by professors at Georgia state colleges and universities. I can't remember exactly what the argument was- something about a couple of professors having earned gazillions from developing electronics while working at Georgia supported universities and a couple who became wealthy when their books about Afghanistan/the Taliban/Osama became totally unexpected bestsellers after 9-11, and the argument being that they wouldn't have had the liberty to do the research/writing/etc. without the taxpayers footing the bill OR that they couldn't be doing a very good job teaching if they were doing that much moonlighting, etc., and thus the state should have a stake in it.
Of course it caused a near rebellion since many professors dream of one day hitting it big with their writing or sidework or being a CNN consultant or whatever, and many more were afraid of "what if I transfer from here to Florida then do something big- is Georgia still going to come after me?", but it was an English professor who happened to also be a pseudonymous Star Trek novelist who really led the charge (he actually made more money writing ST novels than teaching, but taught for the insurance) by having some copyright attorneys he knew well send a "9 major reasons that this will monetarily cost you 5 times more to enforce that you could ever conceivably reap in financial gain" at the same time as some of the biggest names in the state were threatening to leave (this being 2002 when that was feasible).

Anyway, could be a similar thing with SCDP: "We're not making you busy enough if you have time to do this, and if you're writing at work or being inspired by anything you see at work you owe us."

Ken reminds me of one of Kurt Vonnegut's continual laments: that there was a time (lasted through the early 70s or so) when sci-fi/fantasy writers (like Kilgore Trout) could actually make a living or at least a nice side income due to all the sci-fi magazines and also the anthology and even soft core porn mags that paid for short stories. After the '70s (per Vonnegut) you had to write novels because there was no market for stories, and only a few novelists could ever make anything close to a decent living at it.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Ken reminds me of one of Kurt Vonnegut's continual laments: that there was a time (lasted through the early 70s or so) when sci-fi/fantasy writers (like Kilgore Trout) could actually make a living or at least a nice side income due to all the sci-fi magazines and also the anthology and even soft core porn mags that paid for short stories. After the '70s (per Vonnegut) you had to write novels because there was no market for stories, and only a few novelists could ever make anything close to a decent living at it.

One of you has the timing wrong. The collapse of the magazine market took place in the late 50s, when the major distribution network went bankrupt. The field went from around 40 magazines to a half-dozen or so. However, the novel market was already becoming more important than the short story market. Amazingly, there was basically no publisher for genre science fiction novels in the 1940s until several small presses started by fans filled the gap starting around 1948 or 1949. In the 50s Doubleday and Ballantine had good results with sf and by the end of the decade most publishers were creating sf lines. Samuel R. Delany was able to publish 6 or 7 novels starting in 1962 before he ever published a short story.

But in 1966 Farrar, Strauss & Giroux was as likely to publish a collection of genre sf short stories by an unknown as Jaguar was to sponsor NASCAR. Or at any time since for that matter.

[Lightray]

Based on the timeline, Ken wrote the story just before meeting his fiancee so it's plausible that he wrote it while working at the imploding Sterling Cooper before joining SCDP. I interpreted it as Ken working through his emotions of feeling powerless and mindlessly executing the orders of an out of touch executive team that was unwittingly destroying the company. When he interviewed at SCDP, he was clearly unhappy with the direction of the old Sterling Cooper.
So maybe the only decision that Ken could make on his own was whether or not to bring a lawnmower into the office...

[Bleach23]

So maybe the only decision that Ken could make on his own was whether or not to bring a lawnmower into the office...


LOL

[alphaboi867]

Because they are all grown women married to those men? And not young high school girls being hit on by a screwup who is hoping to use them to make himself feel better?

Jane was 20 yrs old and Roger was in his late 40s/early 50s when he left his wife for her. Not only was he farther appart from her in age than Pete was with the HS girl Roger even has a daughter the same age as Jane.

Back in the time frame of this show, there wasn't as much of a taboo on men of Pete's age chasing after 17-18 year old girls. Heck, half the pop-songs that came out around that time are about the practice.

The ultimate skeeze was drunken horse's ass Roger playing giddyup with one of the twin models, in her underwear, in the office after hours. That was a truly vomitous scene. In real life the actresses were 18. But according to some, that's perfectly fine because they were over the 'age of consent'.

Don't forget about wanting the girls to kiss eacher and trying to work up to a menage a trio.

[Nunzio Tavulari]

But in 1966 Farrar, Strauss & Giroux was as likely to publish a collection of genre sf short stories by an unknown as Jaguar was to sponsor NASCAR. Or at any time since for that matter.Although not relevant to your discussion, in the sixty years of NASCAR before Toyota won in 2008, Jaguar was the only foreign make to win a race at the top level. There was a time when MGs and even VW Beetles raced in NASCAR.

cite: http://www.nascar.com/2008/news/headlines/cup/03/09/toyota.first.win.atlanta/index.html

June 13, 1954, when Al Keller drove a Jaguar to Victory Lane at Linden Airport in New Jersey. That day, Jaguars took four of the top six positions.

[Mr Downtown]

I was shocked to hear Lane refer to "Jaguar, Incorporated." Surely it would have been "Jaguar, Limited" and the difference would have been apparent to his British ear.

[Acsenray]

Maybe its U.S. subsidiary or affiliate was Jaguar Inc.

[Misnomer]

ETA: I dug the Beethoven in the credits clearly being fuzzy from an LP.Me, too. :)

[Billy Baroo]

Also, apropos of nothing - has anyone else noticed that Lane's wife is played by the same actress who was Ash's love interest in "Army of Darkness"?The ever-captivating Embeth Davidtz. I always notice her when she turns up on something I'm watching. "Honey, you got reeeal ugly!"

Lane has been moonlighting as a pretty good villain on Fringe.

[drastic_quench]

The ever-captivating Embeth Davidtz. I always notice her when she turns up on something I'm watching. "Honey, you got reeeal ugly!"

Lane has been moonlighting as a pretty good villain on Fringe.

Wasn't he also Moriarty in the latest Sherlock movie?

[Misnomer]

Wasn't he also Moriarty in the latest Sherlock movie?Yep. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0364813/)

[Acsenray]

I do not believe Ken has slipped in his work.

Well, he admitted to Peggy that he's been changing his client dinners to drinks only so he can go home and write. I think it wouldn't just be Roger who would consider that dereliction of duty.

[madmonk28]

I think it was Peggy who told Roger about Ken's short stories, not Pete and I think Ken suspects the same thing. I don't recall Ken's pen name being brought up at the dinner party, so there would be no reason for Ken to change his pen name. The only person who did know it was Peggy.

[Acsenray]

It didn't occur to me. That's definitely a possibility. But I would be very disappointed if it turned out that Peggy did it. Anyway, Ken played it safe by not telling her that he was just switching pseudonyms; he told her he was quitting. So maybe he suspects it too.

But as far as Ken's pseudonym not being mentioned at the party -- this isn't an Agatha Christie murder mystery. Not every bit of conversation has to be revealed on screen before we can take it as given. It's perfectly possible that Ken did tell them his pen name but the only indication would be Ken's implication in his conversation that Pete knew what it was and told Roger.

[madmonk28]

Also, if Pete's rifle is not a Chekov's gun then I don't know what is (although maybe it will be the poison fountain pen, the cap falls off that thing for like, no reason).

[typoink]

It's probably sadly revealing that I find Pete highly sympathetic. He's a smart, hard-working guy who's being broken by constant reinforcement of his impotence. He's losing the ability to feel anything but pain, loneliness, and resentment. He's surrounded by people who are better at everything than him. He can't even get his boss to visit his house without his wife pulling the strings.

Once promising and determined, now withering.

[madmonk28]

Yeah, I feel for Pete too, especially since I think he's going to blow his brains out with that rifle they keep mentioning. He's pretty much turning into a sadder version of Don Draper from S1 which is saying something.

[miss elizabeth]

FUCK PETE.

He's such an asshole. I feel like they are trying to make him a sympathetic character, but it isn't working for me. I hope that rapist shoots himself and it hurts.

[Labrador Deceiver]

FUCK PETE.

He's such an asshole. I feel like they are trying to make him a sympathetic character, but it isn't working for me. I hope that rapist shoots himself and it hurts.

Yeah, they made him more sympathetic in seasons past, but he's a total dick this year. Way, way too big for his britches.

Did Roger mention Ken's pen name? I don't think so. In my mind, it was obviously Pete who did the telling. Ken just changed his pen name to be safe. (Also, because he changed genres.)

[Acsenray]

I don't think Pete was any less of a dick in previous seasons. From his first appearance on the screen, he's been an asshole. Occasionally, he has displayed a few admirable qualities, but he's never been sympathetic in my eyes. That doesn't mean that Roger or Don is better than he is. But I definitely don't feel sorry for anything bad that has happened or will happen to Pete.

[Captain Amazing]

But in 1966 Farrar, Strauss & Giroux was as likely to publish a collection of genre sf short stories by an unknown. . .

Not short stories, but in 1962, FS&G did publish a science fiction novel by an unknown author named Madeline L'Engle named "A Wrinkle in Time".

[Labrador Deceiver]

I don't think Pete was any less of a dick in previous seasons. From his first appearance on the screen, he's been an asshole. Occasionally, he has displayed a few admirable qualities, but he's never been sympathetic in my eyes. That doesn't mean that Roger or Don is better than he is. But I definitely don't feel sorry for anything bad that has happened or will happen to Pete.

In the past couple of seasons, he just got to work. Now, he's really, really rubbing it in.

On another note, I'm going to go on record as saying that Roger isn't the total dumbass people here think he is. He's going to prove his worth.

[ThelmaLou]

On another note, I'm going to go on record as saying that Roger isn't the total dumbass people here think he is. He's going to prove his worth.
I'm on board with that. I like Roger. I can't put my finger on why. I also think (and hope) that he's going to redeem himself.

[madmonk28]

....Did Roger mention Ken's pen name? I don't think so. In my mind, it was obviously Pete who did the telling. Ken just changed his pen name to be safe. (Also, because he changed genres.) No, Roger didn't mention Ken's pen name, but Ken did tell Peggy he was going to stop writing, so he seems to not fully trust her.

At the end of the episode, did anyone else think that Ken's voiceover was from the Twilight Zone? For just half a beat, I thought they would cut to someone on Mad Men watching an episode. It seemed like a call back to the episode in season one, when Paul in a fake Rod Serling voice says, "submitted for your consideration, one Pete Campbell," as he is showing Peggy around the office.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Not short stories, but in 1962, FS&G did publish a science fiction novel by an unknown author named Madeline L'Engle named "A Wrinkle in Time".

Children's literature was and pretty much is an entirely separate field from adult literature in American publishing. It's hard to express just how alien the worlds were at that time.

And even if this weren't so, novels and collections of short stories were and are just as far apart. And both of them are not as distant as genre short stories were in 1966 for a literary house.

You'll think this is hyperbole, but honestly, having an actual spaceship land outside the offices would be more realistic than this. We're talking about something that literally never happened even once in publishing of that era. I think it's literally never happened to this day.

[Made in Macau]

After dinner Trudy asks about dessert and subsequently Pete says he's having too much fun for coffee.
This jarred with me, and the only way it makes sense is if coffee were thought to send you to sleep in 1966! Is this true?

People upthread have said how they enjoyed the direction, but i found 3 transitions really off-putting . There was someone opening a door that cut to Lane opening his office door; camera panning upward from Don and Megan in the car - cut to continual panning up Roger's desk, and a dissolve to Pete in the last high school scene that made it look like a dream sequence was starting. It looked showy to me, and out of place in Mad Men. Reminded me of some of the shots in Blood Simple.
And while I'm ranting about direction... every now and again an episode will show a scene in the normal way then throw in an absolutely square on shot, then cut back to how it was, never to be square again. Don sat at his desk talking to Dr whatsername was one. Betty at home when the guy tried to sell her a/c was another - there are lots more; and it looks like Hitchcock is setting them up to be killed and it really takes me out of the drama!
I'll stop typing now but am I the only one?

MiM

[Acsenray]

After dinner Trudy asks about dessert and subsequently Pete says he's having too much fun for coffee.
This jarred with me, and the only way it makes sense is if coffee were thought to send you to sleep in 1966! Is this true?

It is commonly believed that coffee will make you sober if you are under the influence of alcohol.

Also, at dinner parties, it's common to have coffee right before leaving, so as to be more alert when driving home.

I'll stop typing now but am I the only one?

I've never been bothered by such edits.

[madmonk28]

After dinner Trudy asks about dessert and subsequently Pete says he's having too much fun for coffee.
This jarred with me, and the only way it makes sense is if coffee were thought to send you to sleep in 1966! Is this true?..... Pete meant that he wanted to continue to drink alcohol, not switch to coffee. Coffee is often served at the end of the meal with desert.

[ThelmaLou]

After dinner Trudy asks about dessert and subsequently Pete says he's having too much fun for coffee.
This jarred with me, and the only way it makes sense is if coffee were thought to send you to sleep in 1966! Is this true?

He meant he wasn't through drinking yet.

ETA: Oops. Didn't see previous post.

[AuntiePam]

It was a plot point in the novel The Lonely Polygamist a couple of years ago.

Thank you! Great book.

[Voyager]

But in 1966 Farrar, Strauss & Giroux was as likely to publish a collection of genre sf short stories by an unknown as Jaguar was to sponsor NASCAR. Or at any time since for that matter.

I was coming in here to say the same thing. Doubleday, yes. But a short story connection? Not unless Ken was writing under the name of Ray Bradbury.

It was interesting that Peggy bought a copy of Galaxy to read his story (since I doubt this was her usual fodder.) But the types of stories that he wrote were not Frederik Pohl era Galaxy fodder. Jakobssen a few years later I could maybe see. Nor If, nor
F&SF, and definitely not the Campbell Analog. Sol Cohen had gutted Amazing/Fantastic in mid 1965, and he had worked through the backlog by then. I don't think Moorcock had taken over New Worlds yet.

[Voyager]

But in 1966 Farrar, Strauss & Giroux was as likely to publish a collection of genre sf short stories by an unknown as Jaguar was to sponsor NASCAR. Or at any time since for that matter.

I'd they'd publish one by Philip K. Dick if they had one. But not back then, certainly. Not even Dick.

However, there were plenty of sf writers who also were in ad agencies to make their money, so that part at least rang true. Ken should mention Gravy Planet some time.

[Voyager]

Why do y'all think this is? He seems to be really in love with Megan. Frankly, I don't see what he sees in her. I think the "let's make a baby" line, though said drunk, expresses his serious, old-fashioned, husband/wife love for her. I wish I liked her more, but she seems air-headed, capricious, shallow, and manipulative (though sort of innocently, the way a wife of that time was expected to be).

Megan plays Don expertly. She is not air-headed, she is not capricious, she is not shallow, but she is manipulative in spades. And she's not psycho.
Don killed his past last episode - and I bet Megan is keeping him tired out enough so that he is just not that interested any more. Megan will never have a headache. She doesn't understand Don perfectly yet, but is learning.

BTW, this was my favorite episode of the season. I also saw Signal 30 in Driver's Ed in 1968. I like how the safe old '50s, early '60s world is changing as shown by coverage of the mass murderers.

I also loved the contrast between Don's real background and Pete's privileged one is shown - in the sink, the whorehouse, and the fight. Don would have won. Don wouldn't have been cut out by a jock either.

[madmonk28]

Remember though, that Don also lost a fight in the office, just like Pete did. When he spent the night working with Peggy, he ended up in a fistfight with Duck and Don ended up saying "uncle." It was telling that earlier in the evening, Peggy asked Don if he ever killed anyone during the war he said no and then when he's fighting a drunk and crazed Duck (maybe he was a little daffy, too), Duck says somehting like "I killed 5 men on Iwo Jima," and he looked like he meant it.

I think Don sees the worst of his own personality in Pete, but Pete doesn't have any of Don's positives.

[Voyager]

I think Don sees the worst of his own personality in Pete, but Pete doesn't have any of Don's positives.

Many of Don's positives seem to be coming from the very background he is ashamed of.

[madmonk28]

Excellent point, Pete is Don with a cushier childhood.

[DianaG]

That's true, and I think that one of the implications of that is that no one ever expected a damn thing of Don, so everything he's accomplished is something he can congratulate himself for. Pete was raised with the expectation that he'd be very successful, and no matter what he actually accomplishes, he's only meeting (or worse, not meeting) expectations. No points will be awarded for just doing what's expected of you.