Charles Colson Dead At 80

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/us/politics/charles-w-colson-watergate-felon-who-became-evangelical-leader-dies-at-80.html?pagewanted=all

Another great man has left us now. :(

[Vinyl Turnip]

Oh, you.

[Guinastasia]

Fuck him.

[Der Trihs]

Watergate Felon Who Became Evangelical LeaderAh; he went from being one kind of scum to another. An enemy of humanity. Too bad he lived so long.

[Katriona]

May he rot in the hell in which he allegedly believed with the rest of his traitorous cronies.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Fuck him.

Why exactly (other than "I disagree with his politics and religion")? :rolleyes: Otherwise feel free to go to the BBQ Pit thread.

Ah; he went from being one kind of scum to another. An enemy of humanity. Too bad he lived so long.

Ah yes. Never mind all the work he did in helping out and reaching out to prisoners. Obviously if you're religious you deserve to die. :rolleyes:

[Guinastasia]

Except, he still continued to claim that he was a victim. Sorry, if he was truly repentant, wouldn't he have thanked Felt for turning him in, so he could turn his life around? Nope, sorry.

Yeah, he did some good work, but it sounds like he still wasn't sorry for what he did. Watergate was one of the worst crimes of the U.S. government, and I don't buy he was sorry for a moment. Felt was, in my mind, a hero.

[Northern Piper]

Why exactly (other than "I disagree with his politics and religion")? :rolleyes:

Because he did his best to subvert democracy and the rule of law:

• alleged to have sought to hire Teamsters thugs to beat up anti-war demonstrators;

• proposed firebombing the Brookings Institution and stealing politically damaging documents while firefighters put the fire out;

• as a member of CREEP, agreed to spend $250,000 to set up the plumbers unit, which eventually burglarised the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist;

• leaked information from Ellsberg's FBI file to the press;

• heavily involved in the Watergate cover-up from June, 1972 onwards;

• pled guilty to obstruction of justice.

[The Tooth]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/us/politics/charles-w-colson-watergate-felon-who-became-evangelical-leader-dies-at-80.html?pagewanted=all

Another great man has left us now. :(

I'd never heard of this guy before today. After having read your link, I find my self moved to ask: what exactly made him great?

[Der Trihs]

Ah yes. Never mind all the work he did in helping out and reaching out to prisoners. Trying to convert them to conservative Christianity and into the loony Republican base is helping neither them nor the country. He was a Republican operative who switched from one scummy method of supporting the party, to an even more vile way.

[PlainJain]

feel free to go to the BBQ Pit thread.

I got a better idea, you go there and defend him by telling us how he was great.

[Little Nemo]

I have a hard time seeing Colson as a "great man".

Okay, he may have embraced Christianity and found redemption for his past misdeeds. That's nice for him and it puts him a step ahead of his fellow criminals like Ehrlichman, Haldeman, and Liddy who are unredeemed.

But as far as I'm concerned, it puts him a step below all of the people who don't need that kind of redemption because they have never committed that kind of crime.

It's like saying Albert Speer was a better man than Heinrich Himmler or Joseph Goebbels. Probably true, but he was still a Nazi.

[Kenm]

Only the good die young.

[Enginerd]

• alleged to have sought to hire Teamsters thugs to beat up anti-war demonstrators;

He'd be drummed out of the current Republican party for being a union sympathizer.

[septimus]

From the article cited in OP: Mr. Colson and his colleagues “started vying for favor on Nixon’s dark side,” Bryce Harlow, a former counselor to the president, said in an oral history. “Colson started talking about trampling his grandmother’s grave for Nixon and showing he was as mean as they come.”

Few played political hardball more fiercely than Mr. Colson. When a deluded janitor from Milwaukee shot Gov. George C. Wallace of Alabama on the presidential campaign trail in Maryland in May 1972, Nixon asked about the suspect’s politics. Mr. Colson replied, “Well, he’s going to be a left-winger by the time we get through.” He proposed a political frame-up: planting leftist pamphlets in the would-be killer’s apartment. “Good,” the president said, as recorded on a White House tape. “Keep at that.”

I don't know what shows more desperation by right-wingers: Calling Colson a "great man" or, as in another thread, trying to embrace Martin L. King, Jr., who was a truly great man, as "conservative."

Anid I don't know which is more hilarious: the hilarious claims made by right-wingers, or the fact they don't even seeem to sense their own hilarity.

[Little Nemo]

And I don't know which is more hilarious: the hilarious claims made by right-wingers, or the fact they don't even seem to sense their own hilarity.If you don't love the taste of kool-aid, there's a limit to how many gallons of it you can drink. The ongoing Republican policy of telling lies is driving everyone who has a concern for reality out of the party. The only ones who are left are the ones who enjoy the lies.

[Bryan Ekers]

I'd never heard of this guy before today. After having read your link, I find my self moved to ask: what exactly made him great?

The fact that most people on this board who've heard of him, don't like him.

I'd guess. I mean, that's all it takes to be a conservative hero these days, doesn't it? Not for any actual accomplishment, but just that people you can identify as liberals don't like you. Or so I've gathered.

[LouisB]

I think the OP has suffered a relapse.

[Count Blucher]

*slight hijack*

The other day, as I took my son to school, I saw a Black Honda Odyssey Minivan Hearse. I noticed that it had a sliding side door too. And all the while I was looking at it, I was thinking that This is just So Wrong. First, Hearses should Not have sliding side doors.
Who in this world is So Hard Up or so deserving of disrespect that they're going to make Granma call "Shotgun"? For years the reason why Cadillacs & Lincolns were used was because the family (or the deceased) deserved a quiet & dignified final ride.
Not one where you have to slide the back seat forward to let someone out.

And if it was for the Final Ride, just Who would want to load & unload a coffin through a sliding side door? Seriously, is it for when they're running late? Do they gun the engine mid-cemetery, side open that cargo-van door and give a good shove as they drive by?

"You're All Clear, Kid...!"

*Whumpa-thump* *sliiiiiide* *Crunch-a-Thunk!*

Dead Guy Deposited- 15,000 points (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qfDxiVpgjiM#t=104s)

And for what....the first spot in line at the bar at the luncheon after? I couldn't help but think about what kind of slime-ball would actually deserve that kind of a send-off....

And then, today, as I was reading the SDMB, I read that Charles Colson, Hatchet man for Tricky-Dick Nixon had died at 80....and for some reason...it brought back all those thoughts....

*/slight hijack*

[Beastly Rotter]

Oh, you.

Stay tuned to Keepin' It Qin-Shi, Tuesday nights on Fox.

[BrainGlutton]

Because he did his best to subvert democracy and the rule of law:

• alleged to have sought to hire Teamsters thugs to beat up anti-war demonstrators;

• proposed firebombing the Brookings Institution and stealing politically damaging documents while firefighters put the fire out;

• as a member of CREEP, agreed to spend $250,000 to set up the plumbers unit, which eventually burglarised the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist;

• leaked information from Ellsberg's FBI file to the press;

• heavily involved in the Watergate cover-up from June, 1972 onwards;

• pled guilty to obstruction of justice.

All kid stuff, compared with what CREEP was really all about, which was to assure Nixon's re-election in 1972 by sabotaging the primary campaign of every Dem contender but McGovern, who was judged easiest to beat. It worked. You can read the story in Nixonland, (http://www.amazon.com/Nixonland-Rise-President-Fracturing-America/dp/0743243021) by Rick Perlstein.

[BrainGlutton]

I have a hard time seeing Colson as a "great man".


I can't even believe anyone on Nixon's team ever thought of him that way, or does now.

[PandaBear77]

He made a massive, enormous mistake ... went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good.

Yeah, he was a real asshole.

[Der Trihs]

He made a massive, enormous mistake ... went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good.

Yeah, he was a real asshole.Yes, he was. Pushing America towards theocracy isn't doing good, nor is manipulating prisoners into believing falsehoods to recruit them as Republican/fundie political cannon fodder. He was a scummy Republican operative before he went in, and was one when he left; he just changed tactics from more hands-on dirty tricks to demagoguery.

And what makes you think he wasn't already a Christian? The vast majority of Americans are.

[BrainGlutton]

He made a massive, enormous mistake ... went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good.

No, he didn't. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Colson#Political_engagement)

On October 3, 2002, Colson was one of the co-signers of the Land letter sent to President George W. Bush. The letter was written by Richard D. Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention and co-signed by four prominent American evangelical Christian leaders with Colson among them. The letter outlined their theological support for a just war pre-emptive invasion of Iraq.

That, sir, is the work of a damned soul.

[Thudlow Boink]

He made a massive, enormous mistake"a mistake"? ... went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good.

Yeah, he was a real asshole.From everything I've read about him, I don't doubt that his conversion to Christianity was sincere or that he spent his life trying to do what he thought was "some good"; and he may have accomplished some genuine good. But... well, for the case against Colson, I happened to run across this pretty scathing post by Frank Schaeffer: Colson: An Evangelical Homophobic Anti-Woman Leader Passes On (http://frank-schaeffer.blogspot.com/2012/04/colson-evangelical-homophobic-anti.html)

[Sailboat]

"a mistake"?

Right, his life was a whole series of outright and borderline criminal activities for definably evil* purposes.

*Not evil: seeking to advance your political party's fortunes.

Evil: seeking to advance your political party's fortunes by doing harm to others. See also, Chuck Colson.

I understand that after a life characterized by many instances of sustained lies to manipulate others, he later claimed to have converted to good (in circumstances where it would manipulate others to his advantage.) What I don't understand is why anyone would be gullible enough to think that was genuine.

[Jack Batty]

He made a massive, enormous mistake ... went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good.

Yeah, he was a real asshole.

More like, he was a bastard of the first order who broke laws left and right in an effort to completely subvert democracy -- but when he caught and trotted Jesus out for everyone to coo over, suddenly he because a great man.

I think it was actually Denis Miller who said, "No one ever finds Jesus on their Prom night."

[Marley23]

He made a massive, enormous mistake ... went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good.
Let's not fall into that trap of equating doing wrong with making a mistake. Committing a crime out of desperation might be considered a mistake. Breaking the law professionally over an extended period of time is doing wrong by choice, and it's accurate to describe that as just being a heel. What Colson and Nixon's people did is still shocking. His work with prisoners appears to have been laudable, but that doesn't mean everything else he did was a mere mistake that should be overlooked. If he was sincere in his repentance, he would know that.

Another great man has left us now. :(
I find it curious that you haven't gotten around to explaining why Colson was great. Want to take a stab at it?

[Zeriel]

Any Christians who profess to believe in what Jesus Christ actually said should be lining up to fill Colson's grave with spittle instead of dirt.

There is nothing great about Colson's blatantly phony self-serving "conversion" to a type of "Christianity" that just happens to have beliefs that exactly line up with his pre-conversion political positions.

[BrainGlutton]

\There is nothing great about Colson's blatantly phony self-serving "conversion" to a type of "Christianity" that just happens to have beliefs that exactly line up with his pre-conversion political positions.

To be fair on that point, there is no reason why a sincere religious conversion needs to be a political one as well, is there?

[Zeriel]

To be fair on that point, there is no reason why a sincere religious conversion needs to be a political one as well, is there?

"By their fruits, shall you know them", says I.

Frankly, I'd argue that an authentic conversion experience should manifest in SOME visible change of behaviors/attitudes.

[Snowboarder Bo]

He made a massive, enormous mistake

No, he didn't. He didn't make a single mistake, nor did he make many mistakes. They were on purpose. All the things he did to besmirch his opponents, commit crimes, and attempt to subvert democracy he did on purpose.
Yeah, he was a real asshole.
Despite the fact that you thought you were being sarcastic, this is the part of your post that is factually correct.

[Boyo Jim]

Any Christians who profess to believe in what Jesus Christ actually said should be lining up to fill Colson's grave with spittle instead of dirt....

I don't recall Jesus's Spittle on the Burial Mound sermon. Could you refresh my memory?

[Northern Piper]

Because he did his best to subvert democracy and the rule of law:

• alleged to have sought to hire Teamsters thugs to beat up anti-war demonstrators;

• proposed firebombing the Brookings Institution and stealing politically damaging documents while firefighters put the fire out;

• as a member of CREEP, agreed to spend $250,000 to set up the plumbers unit, which eventually burglarised the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist;

• leaked information from Ellsberg's FBI file to the press;

• heavily involved in the Watergate cover-up from June, 1972 onwards;

• pled guilty to obstruction of justice.
All kid stuff, compared with what CREEP was really all about, which was to assure Nixon's re-election in 1972 by sabotaging the primary campaign of every Dem contender but McGovern, who was judged easiest to beat. It worked. You can read the story in Nixonland, (http://www.amazon.com/Nixonland-Rise-President-Fracturing-America/dp/0743243021) by Rick Perlstein.

Hey, I was in a hurry and just scratching the surface!

[Northern Piper]

He made a massive, enormous mistake ... went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good.
Let's not fall into that trap of equating doing wrong with making a mistake. Committing a crime out of desperation might be considered a mistake. Breaking the law professionally over an extended period of time is doing wrong by choice, and it's accurate to describe that as just being a heel. What Colson and Nixon's people did is still shocking. His work with prisoners appears to have been laudable, but that doesn't mean everything else he did was a mere mistake that should be overlooked. If he was sincere in his repentance, he would know that

This. Mistakes are one thing; conscious, deliberate actions for one's own benefit are not mistakes. When they're against the law, they're criminal offences.

[Zeriel]

I don't recall Jesus's Spittle on the Burial Mound sermon. Could you refresh my memory?

Technically Jesus preferred millstones to spittle for people who misled others about his faith, but y'know, I'm being nice. (Matthew 18:6)

[BrainGlutton]

"By their fruits, shall you know them", says I.

Frankly, I'd argue that an authentic conversion experience should manifest in SOME visible change of behaviors/attitudes.

I guess it depends on whether Colson was ashamed (if he was) of breaking the law, or ashamed of doing wrong in a more fundamental malum in se sense. I doubt he ever felt the latter. And it is no great challenge for a man of Colson's background to reform to the extent of simply no longer breaking the law; especially once he is out of government and no longer has any apparent reason to, and certainly has become too well-known as a (particular and rare kind of) lawbreaker to get away with it any more anyway. No great challenge, but that is all the reformation society reasonably could expect of him, wasn't it? (Of course, God might turn out to have higher/different standards than society for that sort of thing, who knows . . .)

[Marley23]

Without commenting on Colson's conversion in particular, Qin Shi Huangdi, I'll say that conversions from people like him should always be viewed skeptically. To do otherwise is to beg to be made a sucker by cynical people who play on the public's love of a good redemption story. Certainly he's not a great man just because he was a conservative who did some horrible things, then stopped doing horrible things after he got caught and did some good things.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Certainly he's not a great man just because he was a conservative who did some horrible things, then stopped doing horrible things after he got caught and did some good things.
Except he didn't stop doing horrible things.

[Marley23]

Except he didn't stop doing horrible things.
He didn't do any more CREEPing as far as I know. I suppose he did continue to advocate antigay bigotry, so there's that.

[Thudlow Boink]

I understand that after a life characterized by many instances of sustained lies to manipulate others, he later claimed to have converted to good (in circumstances where it would manipulate others to his advantage.) What I don't understand is why anyone would be gullible enough to think that was genuine.

I guess it depends on whether Colson was ashamed (if he was) of breaking the law, or ashamed of doing wrong in a more fundamental malum in se sense. I doubt he ever felt the latter.A long time ago I read his biographical account Born Again. I don't remember much about it, but I think he did admit to guilt (moral as well as legal) and wrongdoing.

I don't really doubt that his acceptance of Christianity (of a conservative/evangelical flavor) was genuine, and at the time I'm not sure he had much to gain by publically doing so.

[Snowboarder Bo]

He didn't do any more CREEPing as far as I know. I suppose he did continue to advocate antigay bigotry, so there's that.

Check out the article that Thudlow linked above.

[Marley23]

Check out the article that Thudlow linked above.
OK, so there's also that. I'm still wondering why Qin Shi Huangdi expects us to be sad.

[PlainJain]

Raps on Qin's door, "You home?"



.

[puddleglum]

Matthew 5:11-12
John 15:18-25
What made Colson great was that he could have fought the charges against him and gotten off with a lesser punishment. He chose to go to jail, rather than be dishonest.
After he got out of jail, he had many rich and powerful friends who could have given him lucrative employment but he chose instead to open a prison ministry to give hope to some of the lowest members of our society. This despite the fact that Nixon was elected as a law and order president and the mainstream view of prisoners was that they were scum who were ruining our country and that prisons were too easy and sentences were too short. Most of the prisoners he helped were felons who had their voting rights stripped and could not be of any service to a political party. Prisoners who go participate in Prison Fellowship ministries are much less likely than average to reoffend and hurt other people. Through self sacrificial service to the lowly he made our society a better place. Truly a great man, one of the giants of our age.

[Marley23]

What made Colson great was that he could have fought the charges against him and gotten off with a lesser punishment. He chose to go to jail, rather than be dishonest.
He did get off with a lesser punishment. This is not accurate with regard to Colson and it's not an accurate description of what happens when you "fight the charges." When you plead not guilty, you may get no prison time at all if you're acquitted on all charges, but you may be convicted on a bunch of charges and get more jail time. It's a bigger risk. When you plead guilty like Colson did, you get a lighter sentence than you might've received if you were convicted after pleading not guilty. It's dealmaking. Wikipedia says that Colson "found himself torn between his desire to be truthful and his desire to avoid conviction on charges of which he believed himself innocent. Following prayer and consultation with his fellowship group, Colson approached his lawyers and suggested a plea of guilty to a different criminal charge of which he did consider himself culpable." So he plead guilty to stuff he thought he did but wouldn't own up to other things, which seems to have been the pattern he followed later in life.

As part of his plea, he was not charged with anything related to the actual Watergate burglary, only the Ellsberg job. He was sentenced to one to three years in prison and was released after seven months. I am not sure how much jail time he was facing if he'd been convicted of everything, but I am sure it was much more. In any case all of that hardly makes a person great.

This despite the fact that Nixon was elected as a law and order president and the mainstream view of prisoners was that they were scum who were ruining our country and that prisons were too easy and sentences were too short.
I have no problem with charity that's prompted by self-interest, but call it what it is: he started caring about prisoners after he became one. That being said, yes, prisoners have rights too.

Most of the prisoners he helped were felons who had their voting rights stripped and could not be of any service to a political party.
Colson, of course, eventually got his voting rights back because of his connections to powerful Republicans.

Through self sacrificial service to the lowly he made our society a better place.
Too bad he only started doing that after trying so hard to make it worse.

Truly a great man, one of the giants of our age.
Saying that he tried to do right after doing wrong is one thing; saying it makes him "great" and "one of the giants of our age" is just nauseating. Most of us are able to do right without doing the kinds of things he did and then being "awakended" to the truth about scummy behavior.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Truly a great man, one of the giants of our age.

That's it. I'm moving out of Lilliput.

[Boyo Jim]

Bullshit, he made a plea bargain and got off with less prison time than any of the others. In fact he plead the 5th while facing while facing a conspiracy charge, and only testified after getting the charge reduced to obstruction.

[septimus]

... Through self sacrificial service to the lowly he made our society a better place. Truly a great man, one of the giants of our age.

There are many many thousands of teachers, ministers, health volunteers, etc. who decline a more lucrative career because they want to contribute to society. Are they all "great people, among the giants of our age"?

No. Colson was a despicable felon who may have risen from his stench to achieve almost-normal morality. The adjective "great" has no meaning here except in a context like "greatly reformed." The people calling him "great" now are the same people who called his 1970's critics "hateful."

BTW, is this why a recent President is considered so "great", indeed voted as "the greatest living American"? He rose from being a drunken fratboy buffoon to being a sober buffoon, and achieved the distinction of "undoubtedly the worst President ever." Great?

As I said earlier, desperation is the word that comes to mind about this idea that Colson was "great."

[puddleglum]

He did get off with a lesser punishment. This is not accurate with regard to Colson and it's not an accurate description of what happens when you "fight the charges." When you plead not guilty, you may get no prison time at all if you're acquitted on all charges, but you may be convicted on a bunch of charges and get more jail time. It's a bigger risk. When you plead guilty like Colson did, you get a lighter sentence than you might've received if you were convicted after pleading not guilty. It's dealmaking. Wikipedia says that Colson "found himself torn between his desire to be truthful and his desire to avoid conviction on charges of which he believed himself innocent. Following prayer and consultation with his fellowship group, Colson approached his lawyers and suggested a plea of guilty to a different criminal charge of which he did consider himself culpable." So he plead guilty to stuff he thought he did but wouldn't own up to other things, which seems to have been the pattern he followed later in life.

As part of his plea, he was not charged with anything related to the actual Watergate burglary, only the Ellsberg job. He was sentenced to one to three years in prison and was released after seven months. I am not sure how much jail time he was facing if he'd been convicted of everything, but I am sure it was much more. In any case all of that hardly makes a person great.


ISaying that he tried to do right after doing wrong is one thing; saying it makes him "great" and "one of the giants of our age" is just nauseating. Most of us are able to do right without doing the kinds of things he did and then being "awakended" to the truth about scummy behavior.

If you read further in the Wikipedia article it says the guilty plea came "at a time when the judge was making noises about dismissing the charges against him". Furthermore he was offered a deal to plead guilty to a misdemeanor, which would have allowed him to practice law, in exchange for the prosecution recommending no jail time.
It was not just that he awakended that what he was doing was wrong and stopped doing wrong things, it was he passed up a life of wealth and prestige to spend his time with the poor and the downtrodden trying to help those who society hates.

[Marley23]

If you read further in the Wikipedia article it says the guilty plea came "at a time when the judge was making noises about dismissing the charges against him".
Yes, I did see that. He still denied responsibility for anything to do with Watergate, made no amends with Ellsberg, and avoided the risk of more serious jail time by taking a plea.

Furthermore he was offered a deal to plead guilty to a misdemeanor, which would have allowed him to practice law, in exchange for the prosecution recommending no jail time.
And didn't take it because...?

It was not just that he awakended that what he was doing was wrong and stopped doing wrong things, it was he passed up a life of wealth and prestige to spend his time with the poor and the downtrodden trying to help those who society hates.
He did not become rich as perhaps he could have, but he did alright for himself and experienced plenty of prestige as a big name in the Christian conservative movement. I'm not seeing "he could have been punished less severely for his crimes" and "he could have made more money" as the makings of a great man and one of the giants of our age. If a former Nixon criminal is a giant of our age because of that - some apparently commendable work with prisoners and a loud contribution to the evangelical Christian movement - I'd say we're all completely screwed.

[Sailboat]

I don't really doubt that his acceptance of Christianity (of a conservative/evangelical flavor) was genuine, and at the time I'm not sure he had much to gain by publically doing so.

Well, one thing he gained was people making threads calling him a "great man." That's an incentive for some people.

it was he passed up a life of wealth and prestige to spend his time with the poor and the downtrodden

Well, he had some prestige -- people are calling him a "great man." I'm helping the downtrodden and I don't make much money, but nobody calls me a "great man."

[Snowboarder Bo]

I'm helping the downtrodden and I don't make much money, but nobody calls me a "great man."

We do think of you as a terrific schooner, tho.