Ok...am I old? Has the world changed?

[BlinkingDuck]

I don't want to pick on anyone in particular here, like Mr. Ruber. I say this because I have seen this with others as well, like my daughter and her boyfriend but, more importantly, with a couple sons of friends.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=650348&page=2

Back in my day, when we had nine planets and school was uphill both ways, when a guy had a girlfriend and went out with her, he tended to pay. This was especially true when he was first courting said girl. In fact, the surest way you knew you struck out was when the girl of your fancy INSISTED on paying her share. It meant...STRIKE THREE...YOU'RE OUT! Not once did I ever have a woman insist on paying her half of the first date end up in a second one.

Now, after dating for awhile the woman would offer to pay and you would let her...some times ...especially if she chose the time and place but mostly you still paid.

The one thing you would NEVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER NEVER DO is haggle with your girlfriend about unfair splitting of a bill because she ordered drinks/more expensive meal. That is so FOREIGN a concept to me that my brain short-circuits.

However, I see things like this with the youngsters these days...and so I am thinking a sea change has happened. Hell, when I went through a divorce 10 years ago then started dating I would get comments that it was nice that the guy paid on the date...with sort of an 'what an old fashoned guy' kind of tone. I don't think it helped or hurt me but it did give me a clue as to the interest of the woman.

In short, it does seem that a change has happened. For you people still dating, does the guy pay or is that custom considered old-fashioned?

[Sicks Ate]

It's a little old-fashioned. While I think it is a nice gesture, I kind of feel like we're all big boys and girls now and can buy our own stuff (I'm a man in my mid-30's. Eeek I mean almost late 30's).

Of women I had more than one date with, I found that the women who were the most successful or accomplished were more likely to offer/insist on paying their own bill. Heck, I even had one pay mine because she was super late!

Still, paying for coffee/drinks for a first date doesn't really bother me. But once we're 'coupled', things need to be pretty even.

[Hello Again]

Also Mid-30s here, and my opinions are very similar to Sicks Ate. At the time when I was dating. I would not have been offended at offering to pay, but I would generally offer some contribution (like, "let me pay the tip" or "thanks -- let me buy you ice cream on the way home"). Eventually I would feel most comfortable splitting or alternating. I would have been insulted if a man insisted on paying all the time. It creates an imbalance in the relationship, where one person who isn't paying, ever, is made to feel dependent and indebted. Usually the must-always-pay man has some real clever notions how the debt can be settled....

Generally if I offered to split the check and a guy made a big honking deal to refuse to let me contribute, I would consider that an enormous strike against him that we are not compatible, and probably not proceed to a second date.

I'm a big girl, handling money won't make my uterus fall out.

[Makeitstop]

Early 20s here. To be honest, this thing kind of depends on the woman. Some wait for the guy to pay, some insist on paying for half. There doesn't appear to be a cultural expectation in my age group, however. At least, not in my(admittedly limited) experience.

I agree with you on the haggling. You NEVER haggle. You pay for half, or you pay for all of it. But don't haggle if you want another date with the lady.

[Voyager]

The old way, which I learned also, was built on the assumption that the guy had more money and always did the asking. Neither of these assumptions is valid today.

Haggling would be a deal breaker for both my daughters. The older one went with the same guy 10 years before they got married, and the younger one seems to have gone from friendships into dating, so I think the bigger issue is that a lot of the traditional "dating" behavior has broken down.

[twickster]

Since this is pretty much a poll, I'll move it from MPSIMS to IMHO.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Early 20s here. To be honest, this thing kind of depends on the woman. Some wait for the guy to pay, some insist on paying for half. There doesn't appear to be a cultural expectation in my age group, however. At least, not in my(admittedly limited) experience.

I agree with you on the haggling. You NEVER haggle. You pay for half, or you pay for all of it. But don't haggle if you want another date with the lady.

I'm in my late 20s and I agree that women vary widely and as a guy you're best off remaining flexible. That means you go for the check and you certainly don't argue or haggle with your date... ever. That's ridiculous.

If they offer to pay or ask if they should you usually decline because a lot of women are just being polite and don't expect to actually pay. Still, there are plenty of women who totally seriously want to pay for half and it'd be very rude and boorish to do anything but relent quickly and split it.

It might sound complicated but it's actually very simple.

To your credit, BlinkingDuck, there are plenty of young women out there who are pretty traditional and would have expected to be treated but insist on paying when the date is going badly. The difference is now it's not a certainty - you could be out with a woman having a great time with you who seems traditional in a lot of ways but happens to be a successful lawyer and always pays for half of her dates. So basically it doesn't pay to assume anything based on how you handle the bill per se.

[WhyNot]

The person who invites pays for the first date. Since one thing that hasn't really changed much (at least in my peer group*) is that it's the guy who asks, 90% of the time, the guy pays.

However, not everyone has gotten the memo, so it's best to bring enough to cover yourself anyhow. And bring enough for cab fare home. And make sure you have clean underwear on, what if you get hit by a bus and they have to take off your skirt in the ER?

Uh, sorry, channeling my Inner Old Lady there.

After the first date, it's a bit of a negotiation. Some couples are most comfortable doing Dutch, some you pay for dinner, I pay for tickets, some do I pay today, you pay next time. A good way to test the waters for a third date, actually, is to say, "How about I get it tonight and you pick it up next time we go out?" You'll either get stammers and lack of eye contact (= no third date) or a grin and agreement (= third date!)

But I do think most women in my peer group would be bothered if he insisted on paying everything, every time. And the woman paying for everything, every time, would raise red flags, too. It's all about equality and reciprocity.


*me=37, white, urban

[Shagnasty]

I wish some of the ones I have gone out recently would have offered to pay part if they knew they would just disappear afterwards. I usually pick something I want to do anyway for a date and it is almost always expensive. I fully expect to pay for the whole thing even if it is $500+ for the two of us even on a first date but I would be happy to take the hint if she offered to pay half if I could save that much money. I haven't had any recent ones offer to pay for anything whatsoever.

[Sicks Ate]

The person who invites pays for the first date. Since one thing that hasn't really changed much (at least in my peer group*) is that it's the guy who asks, 90% of the time, the guy pays.



Wholeheartedly disagree that his should be the rule, even though it sometimes comes up in practice. And if the lady offers to pay for her half 'just to be nice'...well, she just talked herself into half the bill.

I wish some of the ones I have gone out recently would have offered to pay part if they knew they would just disappear afterwards. I usually pick something I want to do anyway for a date and it is almost always expensive. I fully expect to pay for the whole thing even if it is $500+ for the two of us even on a first date but I would be happy to take the hint if she offered to pay half if I could save that much money. I haven't had any recent ones offer to pay for anything whatsoever.

You said how much on a first date? *gulp*

[BlinkingDuck]

The person who invites pays for the first date. Since one thing that hasn't really changed much (at least in my peer group*) is that it's the guy who asks, 90% of the time, the guy pays.

However, not everyone has gotten the memo, so it's best to bring enough to cover yourself anyhow. And bring enough for cab fare home. And make sure you have clean underwear on, what if you get hit by a bus and they have to take off your skirt in the ER?

Uh, sorry, channeling my Inner Old Lady there.

After the first date, it's a bit of a negotiation. Some couples are most comfortable doing Dutch, some you pay for dinner, I pay for tickets, some do I pay today, you pay next time. A good way to test the waters for a third date, actually, is to say, "How about I get it tonight and you pick it up next time we go out?" You'll either get stammers and lack of eye contact (= no third date) or a grin and agreement (= third date!)

But I do think most women in my peer group would be bothered if he insisted on paying everything, every time. And the woman paying for everything, every time, would raise red flags, too. It's all about equality and reciprocity.
*me=37, white, urban



LOL.

Actually, the almost foolproof way to see if there would be a third date was to try to kiss her. She kisses you then you are doing fine. No kiss/turn her head...no third date whether she wants one or not. YMMV. Friends insisted that should happen on the first date, not the second but I was always more laid back :)

I know, that sounds harsh but way back when we had nine planets and school was...er nm....I spent some time on the dating scene...and I found certain 'laws' seemed to apply...and one was that if she didn't kiss or gave you the cheek on the second date then she was either not too interested in you 'in that way' or she has issues that would be best to leave for some other guy to tangle with. I never had one relationship that went well where I ignored my own advice above.

[WhyNot]

LOL.

Actually, the almost foolproof way to see if there would be a third date was to try to kiss her. She kisses you then you are doing fine. No kiss/turn her head...no third date whether she wants one or not. YMMV. Friends insisted that should happen on the first date, not the second but I was always more laid back :)


*Blushing furiously* I'm, uh...I'm trying to think if I know anyone who hasn't admitted at a hen party that she's done WAY MORE than kiss on the second date, before the status of the third date was clear in anyone's mind...straight up sex doesn't always indicate a third date is in the cards. Maybe I just have slutty friends. Kids these days...:D

[Ethilrist]

This subject is why we have lines like "Looks like we're on a date with Destiny, and she's ordered the lobster..."

[Kaio]

In my 30s, and I expect to pay for what I ordered unless other arrangements have been made in advance (and I've agreed to them). I'd feel a little weird about someone insisting on paying for me, especially if if it's the first few "dates" and before there's an established relationship. If I don't know you well, I have no idea if you're one of those guys who "expects something" in exchange for that money, so I'd frankly rather not be put in a position to "owe" you anything.

FWIW, I'm not financially well-off, so contrary to Sicks Ate's experience, I don't think a woman's financial status matters that much.

I will accept someone treating me if 1> we know each other, and 2> it's discussed beforehand. Since I'm not well-off, and most social activities involve spending money, a lot of times if someone wants me to hang out with them I have to refuse for financial reasons. If they offer to cover me in that case, I assume they're a grown up and are allowed to spend their money however they want, and they understand that reciprocity in a financial sense may be a long ways off.

[eclectic wench]

Late 30s here. Ireland, so this may not apply in the US.

I think part of the difference you're noticing is that a lot of people don't 'date' per se - they slide from friendships into relationships, rather than going on dates with near-strangers. That's what I always did (we're talking fifteen years ago). So my husband and I went from hanging out in the pub as part of a big gang to hanging out in the pub on our own, and it never occurred to me to expect that he would suddenly start paying for me. He bought a round, then I bought a round, same as always only with fewer people involved. In fact, one of the ways we knew the relationship was going to be an ongoing thing was when I let him pay for dinner - because it implied that there would be a next dinner that I would pay for.

Most of my friends worked the same way. I do have one female friend who thought that, if she was going out with a guy, he should pay for stuff. She got a fair amount of slagging for it.

If a guy had suggested a $500 date, I would have said no way, because I was broke so I couldn't have paid my half (or reciprocated on the next date), and I'd have been intensely uncomfortable with the idea of him paying for me. It would've been fine if we were already in a serious long-term relationship, but early on, no way. We needed to do stuff we could both afford.

Haggling is all kinds of ridiculous and icky.

[even sven]

Generally I'll let a guy pay for the first date, start picking up parts on the second date (he pays for dinner, I grab drink after, or something along those lines) and alternate after that. It tends to even out in the end.

[BlinkingDuck]

Late 30s here. Ireland, so this may not apply in the US.

I think part of the difference you're noticing is that a lot of people don't 'date' per se - they slide from friendships into relationships, rather than going on dates with near-strangers. That's what I always did (we're talking fifteen years ago). So my husband and I went from hanging out in the pub as part of a big gang to hanging out in the pub on our own, and it never occurred to me to expect that he would suddenly start paying for me.

Having Euro friends and our company has a London office I can say that that sounds very....European.

We had a younger woman at my company that I was quasi-friends with and she spent much time in the London office. She was a real Anglophile (sp?) and was not against exploring sex. She was very VERY frustrated with London men because they would never put themselves on the line and ask...they always wanted to hang with friends and her. :D

*Blushing furiously* I'm, uh...I'm trying to think if I know anyone who hasn't admitted at a hen party that she's done WAY MORE than kiss on the second date, before the status of the third date was clear in anyone's mind...straight up sex doesn't always indicate a third date is in the cards. Maybe I just have slutty friends. Kids these days...:D

Well, there is a difference in 'dating' and 'trying to get some'. I was referring to dating :)

[Rachellelogram]

I've never liked letting guys pay for everything on my dates, because I feel that it creates an expectation of sex in repayment for money. It's like one step removed from actual prostitution (okay, that's an overreaction). But honestly, I would rather pay half now and not feel pressured later on. If, for example, I were to end up on a date with an asshole who insisted on paying for dinner (not that every guy who insists on paying is an asshole, but there's certainly some overlap here), we could end up back at his place where he's gently but firmly pushing me further than I want to because he paid for dinner. Maybe I would let him push me further than I want to go, because I feel guilty that he paid for dinner. I would just rather forestall that whole scene in the first place, because I know how assholes work. More importantly, I know how I work. I can't accept money in those situations without accepting an accompanying, undesirable sense of obligation. I hate being in debt to another person. Katniss knows what I mean, ok! :)

Similarly, I also can't understand how chicks can let guys buy them drinks at bars--Don't they have any respect for themselves? Or do they think their presence is SO stimulating that talking to a guy for 5 minutes is "worth" an $8 drink? Talk about self-centered.

It's a new generation, eh?

[Farmer Jane]

I'm perfectly fine with letting guys pay most of the time. Check back with me later when the income gap closes.

[Shagnasty]

Wholeheartedly disagree that his should be the rule, even though it sometimes comes up in practice. And if the lady offers to pay for her half 'just to be nice'...well, she just talked herself into half the bill.



You said how much on a first date? *gulp*

Yeah, I have done $500+ dates a few times as an experiment. Like I said, I wanted to do the things anyway and wanted a female of my choice to do it with me but it is frustrating when they just disappear afterwards. I get that they don't want to be my girlfriend but some etiquette is necessary in my mind after a couple of such dates when they said that they would call and then don't and won't even respond to mine.

I never even hit on most of them. Maybe that is the problem. I don't think women's ideas of dream dates and reality match up all that well. I would have done much better with an escort service if sex was all I was looking for but it wasn't and it worked out great except for the part where they stopped communication abruptly and with no warning.

However, I always expect strict etiquette and that is where the women today are letting me down. I would be happy to pay $1000+ for a first date an honest and straightforward woman that I could have a good future with but I am not sure they exist in appreciable numbers in the wild. I know it isn't all about money but I am not sure I could find that with anyone that I have met so far and I screen deeply in advance.

[Musicat]

Once Upon A Time, men made the money and women spent it. The idea of marriage was for the woman to find a man who could provide 100% of her financial needs.

A man asked a woman out, he paid for it. He was the one with the money, she wasn't.

That was Long Ago. It's rare for a woman to graduate from school now (any level) and expect to enter the spouse market instead of the job market. Women earn almost as much as men in almost any field, and very few fields are closed to either sex. It's pretty close to equal now.

So why shouldn't dates share expenses roughly equally as well?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Ok...am I old? Has the world changed?

Can't it be both?

:)

[Voyager]

Yeah, I have done $500+ dates a few times as an experiment. Like I said, I wanted to do the things anyway and wanted a female of my choice to do it with me but it is frustrating when they just disappear afterwards. I get that they don't want to be my girlfriend but some etiquette is necessary in my mind after a couple of such dates when they said that they would call and then don't and won't even respond to mine.

Not to play Ann Landers here, but I'd think that a $500 first date puts excessive pressure on a woman. Forget about the sex angle, which is there no matter how polite you are, it just puts things at a very uneven level. That would be a special treat after the boundaries of the relationship are set, but not before.

It seems that the current dating mode is a very low stress date for dinner or coffee to start with. I can just imagine how my daughters would have reacted to a similar invitation. Not very well. One of them had someone fairly rich interested in her, unfortunately she was not interested in him.
I know your intentions are honorable, but they may not come across that way.
Just saying as someone totally clueless but who learned what was going on from watching my girls grow up.

[Taomist]

I learned to accept that, as an nearly-always-employed <laid off atm> NON-professional woman that most of the guys I dated made more money than I did. I do not have fancy tastes, but if a date wanted to go somewhere nice, he'd better pay for it because I probably won't be able to. First date, that's great. LTR, also great, because at some point you both recognize that's what's going to need to happen to enjoy certain things. But I've always had great ideas for dates that were within my range, and it was usually a good indicator that it wasn't going to work out if the guy really didn't want to not be in control. Or just had expensive tastes that were never going to make me happy on a long-term basis. Or he couldn't understand the joys of just staying home and snuggling and watching a movie at home instead of paying 40 bucks to see the latest one.

One guy, for our first 'date' (read: excuse to see him outside work and MAKE a date) I won two tickets for an MMA match and invited him, since his friends were going too; he went, and we were together for the next three years, splitting things more or less evenly, with him picking up the heavy end if needed.

Another guy, first date was a simple bar dinner; he would not let me pay, though I kept trying to slip him a ten dollar bill to help when he wasn't looking. It became a game for the rest of the evening; as he left in his pickup, I ran after him and threw the ten in the back. :p He actually got a little upset, and that's when I realized "Hey, you're in the South, dumbass; let him pay or he's going to think you're insulting him!". We were together for a year or so; pretty sure I snuck a few bills out from under him during that time.

[Taomist]

To add, since I never get it right the first time: I'm 45, with about 30 years of dating experience across most of the US under my belt. I would never think it's weird for a guy to pay for the first date, but I would be *surprised* to find the guy expects me to pay for his. So...I guess I'm sexist? :p Times ARE changing, surely, but I don't think they're changing all that fast.

[Shagnasty]

Not to play Ann Landers here, but I'd think that a $500 first date puts excessive pressure on a woman. Forget about the sex angle, which is there no matter how polite you are, it just puts things at a very uneven level. That would be a special treat after the boundaries of the relationship are set, but not before.

It seems that the current dating mode is a very low stress date for dinner or coffee to start with. I can just imagine how my daughters would have reacted to a similar invitation. Not very well. One of them had someone fairly rich interested in her, unfortunately she was not interested in him.
I know your intentions are honorable, but they may not come across that way.
Just saying as someone totally clueless but who learned what was going on from watching my girls grow up.

You are correct but I am screening for that behavior too. This certainly isn't a desperation play on my part. They have to step up. Proper etiquette or lack thereof is only something you can learn about first-hand once you give them the chance. The only thing I have been disappointed with is that most of them have failed that one miserably so I do detect a bad trend at least for females in the Boston area even if they are well-educated.

One however did a great job. It was obvious from the first few minutes that we weren't a good romantic match but we are a good friend match. We had a great time and have kept up with each other. She is very nice Jewish lady from an affluent family and I know it can be done regardless of different backgrounds or interests. Basic manners don't cost anyone anything.

[Capt Kirk]

:rolleyes:IMHO I expect to pay for the first date, I am asking for a date ie. " I want you to go and do this with me" of course I expect to pay. If she wants to pay for anything I generally see this as a good sign, unless of course she is gone five minutes later.

[DearestDane]

In short, it does seem that a change has happened. For you people still dating, does the guy pay or is that custom considered old-fashioned?

Here in Denmark, that change happened 40ish years ago. When it comes to dealing with a bill in a restaurant, the two genders meet on equal terms, exactly as they do in other contexts. Gender inequality is indeed outdated.

[panache45]

In my world, the Top pays.

[etv78]

In my world, the Top pays.

I wondered how that would work. (NOT being snarky, genuinely curious)

[BlinkingDuck]

Shagnasty, I think you are making a mistake spending so much on the first date. When I was dating between marriages I made decent money but discovered not to spend too much on the first date...and the threshhold of 'too much' can be surprisingly low. One of my favorite 'dinner' ideas for a first date was Tepinyaki (sp?) - Japanese place where the chef cooks in front of you and knives are in the air :) ) The bill for 2 people including drinks would be around $100...and THAT even made many uncomfortable.

[Kaio]

Shagnasty, I think you are making a mistake spending so much on the first date. When I was dating between marriages I made decent money but discovered not to spend too much on the first date...and the threshhold of 'too much' can be surprisingly low. One of my favorite 'dinner' ideas for a first date was Tepinyaki (sp?) - Japanese place where the chef cooks in front of you and knives are in the air :) ) The bill for 2 people including drinks would be around $100...and THAT even made many uncomfortable.

Agreed. If someone I met offered that as a first date idea, I'd probably think that we're basically living on two different planets in terms of values, worldview, and lifestyle, and would just turn him down. It pretty much looks like you're trying to buy her, or otherwise impress her with how much money you can throw around. It comes across as extremely shallow, and I'd expect someone like that to be basically looking for a trophy wife.

If that's not your intent, I'd suggest sticking to coffee dates until you're actually in a committed relationship with someone. I suspect a lot of women don't call you back because you've made things really, really awkward for them, and they have no idea how to handle it, so they just... don't. Remember women are socialized to be "nice" (which is a frakking difficult thing to overcome), so being put on the spot by first agreeing to a date, and then you spring the $500 price tag on them -- well, it wouldn't be "nice" to turn you down after they'd already accepted, would it? So they go along quietly, feel like crap about it, and run to avoid the awkwardness. You're probably chasing away women you'd get along fine with otherwise.

Honestly I'm surprised that you haven't figured this out on your own. Any first date that goes into triple digits is too damn much. I don't know you well enough to be beholden to you like that. If the average person couldn't afford to go dutch on the cost, it's too much, and puts too much pressure on.

[Kaio]

I also note that the one woman who passed your "test" came from money, herself -- IOW, she could afford to go dutch on a $500 date. I imagine that was the reason she didn't run -- there was no undue pressure on her, she could afford anything she might "owe" you.

Most people don't throw around that kind of money. At the very least, it demonstrates a potential conflict zone for a future relationship -- are your lifestyles going to be compatible, in terms of how much you got and how much you spend? Are your values compatible?

[Blaster Master]

The rule of thumb for me is that I assume I'm going to pay. Then again, most of the way most of the things work out is fairly mutual, where one of us initially says we should do something and we work out the details together or I end up setting the details.

When the bill comes, it's actually an interesting point to see whether she just lets me pay and says nothing, let's me pay and thanks me, or offers to split. And in many cases when she does just thank me, she'd then later insist on paying for the follow up activity, if there was one. FTR, I've never had a second date after she didn't even say anything at all, presumably mutual in most cases. And certainly after the first couple of dates or so, things will generally be split pretty evenly.


Either way, I think the idea that the guy always pays for everything is pretty much dead. It's sort of left over from a time when either the woman didn't work or generally made considerably less money and I think a lot of men and women today see it as putting themselves on unequal ground. Certainly if there's real money considerations, like one really is on a very thin budget and the other isn't, that's a special situation. At least for me, it's not the money, it's about being equals, it's not just me courting her and she's some object that can be won over, but it's a two-way interaction.

[dngnb8]

I am old. I kid you not. Just an hour ago, I saw someone with buds in their ears (back in my day, we had headphones). I ask, what ya listening too. She gives me the buds and I listen.


I swear to all that is holy, the artist sounded just like my daughter whining at the dinner table that she had to eat her brussel sprouts.

When did whining become good music? Are you kidding me!?!?! This is the stuff people are buying today?!?!?!

Now I know how my father felt about The Beatles....

[The Great Sun Jester]

I've never liked letting guys pay for everything on my dates, because I feel that it creates an expectation of sex in repayment for money.So what if I lean across the table and say in a low voice with a wink and a grin, "This is just money. When I want your pants I'll buy them with my heart."

Will you let me just make the check go away? Because that's the only thing that has ever been on my mind when I've ninja'd a dinnerbill. I ninja date bills, and I ninja bar tabs, I ninja the folks behind me at the Starbucks drive-through. It's just something I like to do.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Oh, missed the edit...the above is after you've voiced a preference to go Dutch.

[Taomist]

So what if I lean across the table and say in a low voice with a wink and a grin, "This is just money. When I want your pants I'll buy them with my heart."

Will you let me just make the check go away? Because that's the only thing that has ever been on my mind when I've ninja'd a dinnerbill. I ninja date bills, and I ninja bar tabs, I ninja the folks behind me at the Starbucks drive-through. It's just something I like to do.

:p That can be fun, I know. But you're going to have to let the person know you well enough for them to know that's how you are, before you can expect not to make people uncomfortable. ;) So if you're going to ninja first dates, make them relatively cheap first dates.

Unless, of course, you ARE looking for someone who likes being wined and dined and has no problem with it; there are lots of people out there like that, and they are not all gold-diggers. But you could spend quite a bit of money and time before you discover what they're really after.

[Kaio]

Yeesh. Bringing up sex when she's talking about the bill? On a first date? That's gonna come off as pretty creepy, my friend.

[dngnb8]

So what if I lean across the table and say in a low voice with a wink and a grin, "This is just money. When I want your pants I'll buy them with my heart."

Will you let me just make the check go away? Because that's the only thing that has ever been on my mind when I've ninja'd a dinnerbill. I ninja date bills, and I ninja bar tabs, I ninja the folks behind me at the Starbucks drive-through. It's just something I like to do.

I figured you would lean over and say


You killed my father, prepare to pay for your meal

[dngnb8]

I always cooked for the first date. No bill to futz over. I would prepare a wonderful meal, with wine.

Sometimes, we would go dancing, sometimes just sit in the spa.

90% of the time, it did end in sex.

[The Great Sun Jester]

You killed my father, prepare to pay for your mealSo close... "Prepare to dine" But it would have to be after the appetizer and before the pasta.

[MichaelEmouse]

In my world, the Top pays.

Is there always a top? Does the top pay pretty much everytime?

[dngnb8]

So close... "Prepare to dine" But it would have to be after the appetizer and before the pasta.

How could I have missed that! *my bolding*

What would you do if she responds


"As you wish"

I suggest Prenup. LOL

[Voyager]

You are correct but I am screening for that behavior too. This certainly isn't a desperation play on my part. They have to step up. Proper etiquette or lack thereof is only something you can learn about first-hand once you give them the chance. The only thing I have been disappointed with is that most of them have failed that one miserably so I do detect a bad trend at least for females in the Boston area even if they are well-educated.

One however did a great job. It was obvious from the first few minutes that we weren't a good romantic match but we are a good friend match. We had a great time and have kept up with each other. She is very nice Jewish lady from an affluent family and I know it can be done regardless of different backgrounds or interests. Basic manners don't cost anyone anything.

I totally agree with you about the importance of manners - but good manners shine out just as much at a lunch counter as they do at a five star restaurant. Perhaps more, since sometimes the rude will be intimidated into good behavior at a fancy place and let their inner ogre out at a place where they consider themselves better than the staff. My step-mother is an excellent example. So is her daughter.

[The Devil's Grandmother]

Basic manners don't cost anyone anything.
Normally I'd agree with you, but for me basic manners means I should take you out after you take me out. There's no way I could afford a $500 outing, so I probabaly would worry, dither, and then end up shamefacedly avoiding your phone calls.

Threads like this mean my poor husband gets heathy veggies for dinner all week, because g-d forbid he die before me and I have to date again.