Homeschooling

[SkeptiJess]

While researching a question on creation-science curricula I visited a number of homeschooling websites and message boards. I had originally focused on Christian homeschooling, but, as I got interested, I branched out. Now I'm left with a few questions. I'm posting this here in GD, because, based on what I've seen out there, this is where it'll end up anyway.

First of all, what is the largest percentage of homeschoolers? I found some folks who were just trying to give their kids the best education possible -- many of these people seemed very bright and were doing a great job of educating their kids, so far as I could see. I also saw some folks who, reading between the lines, had removed their kids from school in order to allow them to avoid punishment of some kind, or because the teachers and school administration were "picking on them." And, I saw the people who removed their kids from school because of a perception that our culture as exemplified in the school system was somehow harmful to children. This last group included a small number of Pagan homeschoolers (who may have a point, an 'open' Pagan is gonna have a tough time in a bible belt elementary school), but the vast majority of these were Fundamentalist Christian. My quick take on the topic was that the last group (the Christians) outnumbered the rest. However, I wasn't able to find any real numbers on this.

Next, how are homeschoolers doing, educationwise? I saw many claims that homeschoolers do better in standardized tests than did children in public schools. However, I saw no actual cites for this. I also heard anecdotal evidence from several school administrators that homeschooled kids returning to public schools were seriously behind their classmates. According to these administrators, the problem was pretty serious. One high school administrator said that, at her school, the largest group of overage freshmen was the formerly homeschooled. They'd come back to public school at age 16 and be so far behind that they'd have to be placed as freshmen. Again, there were no specific cites.

Finally, what sort of accountability standards should there be, or should there be any? According to the school administrators I referenced above, one of the biggest problems was the lack of transcripts and grades for homeschooled kids returning to public school. Lacking a paper trail, the kids had to be tested for grade eligibility -- and one of the school administrators said that she had never, in 8 years experience, seen a homeschooled kid test at an age appropriate level. She did not cite actual numbers, or offer any proof of this claim.

So, what about it? My quick and dirty opinion is that Christian homeschoolers (by which I do not mean homeschoolers who are Christian, but rather homeschoolers pushing a Christian curriculum) outnumber the rest. Also that, homeschoolers returning to public schools are ill-prepared to do so, even though some homeschooled kids who complete their entire education in a homeschool environment may test better than some public school kids. Finally, homeschoolers should have some kind of accountability -- specifically a requirement for transcripts. However, I realize that all of my opinion on this subject is based only on anecdotal evidence, so I'm willing to be convinced that I am wrong on any particulars.

[Badtz Maru]

I am considering homeschooling my kid when I have one, but it really depends on how much money my wife is making by the time it's born. If I'm the primary money-maker then I will have to work and I will try to get the kid in a private school, though I'd rather stay home and teach it myself. My wife probably lacks the patience to teach herself.

I want to homeschool because I think I could do a lot better job than most educational institutions. In my family the kids all knew how to read pretty well before kindergarden, I feel like my education was severely hindered by the public school system. Not only could I give my kids an advantage academically, I want to try to lead them away from a lot of elements of modern culture that are unavoidable at a school. I'm not going to shelter them from the world as prepare them for it ahead of time. I'm also going to give them a nice healthy superiority complex - that is, if I can.

[Dangerosa]

Sorry, I can't find a cite for this so this is from memory.

Recently in Minnesota a proposal was brought up to a house committee (I think its house, and I'm pretty sure it was just a proposal, not a bill) requiring parents who home school their children to hold a high school diploma and report standardized test scores to the state so the state could get some idea on the effectiveness of home schooling (homeschoolers are currently required to give the standardized tests, but do not need to report scores). It didn't get out of its hearing.

The reporter (I heard this on our NPR station) said we really don't know how many kids are being homeschooled in the state (we have estimates - I can't remember the number, so I'm not guessing), and we really don't know how they are doing.

So, hard and fast data is going to be difficult to come up with - at least for Minnesota you are stuck with ancedotal.

[TV time]

Only a couple of minutes, sorry.

I've done a couple of stories on homeschooling here in rural Colorado and found a couple of things. The majority of the people around here who are home schooling are fundamentalist Christians, who do not want their children corrupted by the schools that they see as Godless.

Many of these same people are very afraid of the U.S. government too, and feel it might resort to brainwashing their children regarding any number of their beliefs.

With the exception of science (especially biology) the students are very well prepared in comparison to public school educated students.

The one thing I have found that was lacking in these young people was that the homeschooled students seem to lack some social skills. They don't know how to deal with groups of people their own ages. When groups of the general population of young people virtually all of them don't "play well with others." They stand off to the side or stand near an adult or play by themselves.

I was very surprised at this. I thought playing with others was natural. Clearly it is a learned skill.

[Freedom]

While not everybody thought High School was hell, I think there is a large percentage of us who did. From Eutychus' pit rant, to the current school shootings, there is an obvious problem in our high schools.

I hope to homeschool my children.

I think that my children will be tought almost all of the mainstream subjects. (including evolution)

The difference that I see, is that they will be able to do it at their own pace, and be able to specialize in subjects they are more interested in. I will also be able to make sure they get an education in areas where I feel the public schooling system let me down.

I think any homeschooler needs to have the resources and willingness to get a tutor for subjects where their child gets ahead of them. (high school age--physics--advanced math, biology, foreign language... etc...) I live in the real world. I don't use physics and biology in my everyday life. It's been 10 years since I sat in a classroom. I don't see the need to be threatened when in 15-20 more years pass, my child has a greater knowledge of science than I do.


I also want to make sure they get the proper exposure to ideas that I never saw in school. Politics was hardly mentioned. Different theories on how to view the world were never explained.

I also want to remove the teaching of things I do not want the school involved in. I would prefer that my wife and I handle the sex education of our children. I want to be the one who explains what is right and wrong when it comes to racism and prejudice. I don't want the school flipping out if my child draws a picture of a gun.

Most importantly, I want him to grow up learning how to be independent.

As far as the social interaction thing....

There is no promise that sending your child to public school will mean that he will be socially well adjusted. Shoot, I didn't even START to become socially adjusted until after I LEFT school. You are basically trapped in a building with a 1000 other kids whom you would NEVER associate with in any other circumstance. Check out the thread about school shooters being someone's hero, there are a lot of people out there with screwed up childhood's because of public school.

You have to make an effort to get your child involved in group activities. School is not the only game in town as far as social interaction. Where I am, most sports have a "private club" organization for football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse etc.... None of these organizations are connected to the school. Karate class is a great place to learn confidence, and kids around me start those at age 5. There are countless volunteer groups around, and there are always kids at those.

And hell...if all else fails he'll just meet some friends on the internet. (joke....joke......)

I'm not saying it's easy, but nothing ever is.

Of course, it will all probably backfire and my children will all rebel and become raving socialists:)

I do see where homeschooling is not the best course for every familiy. Regardless of a family situation though, the choice must remain with the family. (barring objective proof of abuse) But part of freedom is having the freedom to fail. You certainly can't make the case that public schools never fail. I just have this problem with the state mandating that they get control of your children from 8am-4pm every day.



:: post scanned for the inevitable typos that would prove I am unfit to teach my own child::

Don't worry--- My mother has a Masters Degree in English, I'll let her teach that subject :)

[Jackmannii]

Are there large-scale studies that not only compare home-schooled kids to their counterparts in formal settings, but control for factors such as family income and two-parent homes?

The home-schooled group should be as demographically similar as possible to the formally educated group for comparisons to be valid.

[Guinastasia]

What about so-called "unschooling", like at unschooling.com
?
Where does that fit in?

[doreen]

You have to make an effort to get your child involved in group activities. School is not the only game in town as far as social interaction. Where I am, most sports have a "private club" organization for football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse etc.... None of these organizations are connected to the school. Karate class is a great place to learn confidence, and kids around me start those at age 5. There are countless volunteer groups around, and there are always kids at those.

Whether the parents will make that effort depends on why they are homeschooling. If they are doing it mainly to provide a better education, they might get the children involved in sports ,home-schooling groups, etc. However, the few homeschooling families I've known have been motivated at least as much by a desire to keep their children away from other kids as by the desire for a good education.Forget sports, these kids couldn't join the family church's youth group.Those kids aren't likely to learn how to get along with other kids (or really anyone outside their family).

[PlanMan]

Bridging to another GD topic, should Homeschoolers get (some or all of) the money the school system would spend if the child were in school - Homeschool Vouchers?

If so, the children should be subject to the same assessment tests as the in-school kids. A point made in at least a couple of the Voucher threads.

But without the "state's" money, it would be hard to enforce a provision requiring testing of Homeschool children. About the only leverage might be truancy laws.

How do colleges, especially the "competitive" ones deal with Homeschool Diplomas? I would imagine that Fundamentalist Colleges have no problems with Homeschooled Fundamentalists, but what about real colleges and universities?

Of course the parents doing this because they don't trust the Godless Government schools are not likely to submit to testing by the Godless Government.

Solutions? I have none. However, there is a body of knowledge that everyone -- including those homeschooled -- in society should know. This is not just a list of facts, but also includes the thinking processes that come with a thorough education.


from Freedom
I think that my children will be tought almost all of the mainstream subjects. (including evolution)
:: post scanned for the inevitable typos that would prove I am unfit to teach my own child::

Ahhh, Nobody is perfect.

[drachillix]

:rolleyes:

I have the misfortune of dealing with quite a few homeschool types as customers. Several of them have been openly disdainful of the fact that we carry so much "secular" material (and they make the word secular sound so dirty) asking how we can live with ourselves selling some of this stuff. I can see where home schooling is a viable option for non mainstream religions where the kids would be harrassed heavily in a public school environment.

However, there should be some kind of basic requirement set up like a "homeschooling credential" issued by a local college. This would just be to make sure that they are introduced to non subject specific basic teaching concepts.

I also disagree with the lack of accountability standardized testing. Maybe a mechanism could be put in place for homeschoolers to take their test in a controlled environment, for example, report to the local school cafeteria twice a year for testing with all the other homeschoolers in the area. Just to make sure they are being given proper basic readin' 'ritin'and 'rithmetic. If a homeschooler consistently performs poorly on these tests maybe they should be forced to placed in an accreddited school since obviously the parents are not cutting it. If they pass the 12th grade test under that environment, maybe the district could even cut them a legit diploma (for a fee I'm sure)

[Guinastasia]

Around here, in Pennsylvania-all you do is go to the school, say you want to home school your kids and that's it. You pull them out, they give you the material, and nothing else.

Our neighbor was sick of the school calling her about how her kids were never behaving or doing their work. She pulled them out on the premise that she was "homeschooling" them, and that's it. She had a sixth grade and a ninth grade dropout. She never teaches them anything, and all they do is make trouble.

I think there's something seriously wrong.

[Zsofia]

As regards getting into college:

I know several college-age homeschool graduates (homeschooled for different reasons) who tell me that different schools have different policies about homeschooling, often between the lines. A guy I met at a summer internship once told me that he'd really wanted to go to Georgia Tech, but they weren't very welcoming of homeschool diplomas, so he had to go to MIT instead, which evidently has no problem with it. He made it seem like such a sacrifice, too. :)

[Ross]

I used to be assistant pastor in a residential bible college, and one of my duties was helping homeschool the pastor's son. I personally am very proud of having survived the British private school system, so I had serious doubts about homeschooling - where were the uniforms, the beatings, the dark sarcasm in the classroom?

Sorry - tangent. Anyway I hafta say I was pretty impressed with the material. It was PACE, I think. Something Accelerated Christian Education. There was nothing wrong with the stuff except that everything was in dollars, and it may be because I work mainly in poor areas, but the boy's education was streets ahead of most of the kids I meet. He also, and this is my main point, had very well-developed social skills, to the point that I frequently saw him enter a roomful of local kids and begin leading them around within minutes. It surprised me, but it made me rethink some of my ideas of what had caused my own isolation. I'd submit that in some situations a homeschooling is part of a wider responsibility which parents may choose to take for their children's development as a whole, rather than farming them out to others.

[yosemite]

A co-worker has a daughter who is home-schooled. She's a very bright, well-adjusted girl. She has lots of friends to socialize with. The mom took her out of public school because it was in a rough area, and just because it was a crappy school.

The other co-workers just thought this was terrible. They bitched all the time about how this woman was robbing her daughter of all the "fun" of school. These people remembered the bucolic joy of their small little schools in Hooterville, from several decades ago. They still think that school is like that - some precious time for a kid.

I was the only one in our group of workers who supported the home-schooling mom. While the school I attended wasn't in a bad area, it was pretty large, and rather hellish at times. I said to these other co-workers, "You people have NO idea what Hell school can be! This girl is lucky to not have to deal with that!" But they just wouldn't accept it. Their heads were stuck back in 1970, with visions of bucolic country schools. They have no clue what it's like today. (I think perhaps the recent school shootings are giving them a wake-up call, though!)

This homeschooling mom wants her daughter to go to a nice public school, but right now, they are living in a rough part of town, and her only option is this crappy, scary local school. Obviously homeschooling is the far better alternative to that!

[msmith537]

Originally posted by Freedom
While not everybody thought High School was hell, I think there is a large percentage of us who did. From Eutychus' pit rant, to the current school shootings, there is an obvious problem in our high schools.



Originally posted by Freedom
I also want to remove the teaching of things I do not want the school involved in. I would prefer that my wife and I handle the sex education of our children. I want to be the one who explains what is right and wrong when it comes to racism and prejudice. I don't want the school flipping out if my child draws a picture of a gun.


I think this is a good thing. Most parents should be teaching this even if they send their kids to public or private school.


Originally posted by Freedom
Most importantly, I want him to grow up learning how to be independent.


I think this will be hard to do if your kid is spending most of the day with you. Children learn how to be independent by being on their own.


Originally posted by Freedom
As far as the social interaction thing....

There is no promise that sending your child to public school will mean that he will be socially well adjusted. Shoot, I didn't even START to become socially adjusted until after I LEFT school. You are basically trapped in a building with a 1000 other kids whom you would NEVER associate with in any other circumstance. Check out the thread about school shooters being someone's hero, there are a lot of people out there with screwed up childhood's because of public school.


This I don't understand. Out of 1000 students, you can't find ANY to associate with? Part of growing up is to learn to deal with uncomfortable social situations. At some point in everyones life, they need to learn how to deal with bullies, drugs, alchohol, social cliques, etc. The earlier the better. No amount of home schooling can make up for experience.



Originally posted by Freedom
You have to make an effort to get your child involved in group activities....


Good idea except... The danger is that you are setting up all your childs activities. Public school at least gives your child exposure to other kids and other activities you may not have thought of. When I was younger, my dad signed me up for baseball and basketball (sports he was very good at). Neither sport thrilled me that much. I ended up being an ice hockey player in high school. If I didn't go to public school, I may never have played hockey in HS. I would certainly not have played in college. I would therefore not have met the guys who asked me to join the particular fraternity I joined and would not have made the connection which helped land me a job with a big-5 management consulting firm. And I was kind of a screw up in HS and college. You never can tell how kids will end up if left to their own devices.


Originally posted by Freedom
And hell...if all else fails he'll just meet some friends on the internet. (joke....joke......)

I'm not saying it's easy, but nothing ever is.

Of course, it will all probably backfire and my children will all rebel and become raving socialists:)


And your child will probably thank you. (Probably while you are sleeping ;) )

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
Not only could I give my kids an advantage academically, I want to try to lead them away from a lot of elements of modern culture that are unavoidable at a school. I'm not going to shelter them from the world as prepare them for it ahead of time. I'm also going to give them a nice healthy superiority complex - that is, if I can.


The best preparation is experience. You can only teach you kids so much. At some point, they will need to confront the 'bad elements of moder culture'. That is how children build confidence. Not by having their head pumped up full of superiority nonsense.



High school sucks for just about everyone because it is the time in our life where we are discovering who we are and how we fit into the world. This can be a painful process but it is a necessary one. Keeping your kids sheltered in home school will only rob them of important experiences they can only get from interacting with their peers.

[yosemite]

Originally posted by msmith537



High school sucks for just about everyone because it is the time in our life where we are discovering who we are and how we fit into the world. This can be a painful process but it is a necessary one. Keeping your kids sheltered in home school will only rob them of important experiences they can only get from interacting with their peers.



In an ideal situation, perhaps this is true. But too often, schools are full of bullies and teachers who look the other way, and many other horrors. My school wasn't even that bad compared to many, but one of the major lessons I learned in school was that when you are bullied, you are on your own. The teacher can be right there in the classroom, and they'll just look the other way. (And I'm not just talking about minor petty bullying - I'm talking about physical harm - like falling on your butt because someone pulled your chair out from under you. And then your tailbone hurts so damn bad for DAYS after. No, I'm not bitter! :rolleyes: )

This can start to be a "what hell school is" thread, and I am not intending that. What I am saying is that you gotta make sure that the kid is missing out in something that should not be missed. Being stuck in a Hell where all you learn is that there is no protection from bullies and no justice (a lesson I did learn in school, and which took me a while to overcome) is definitely WORTH missing. Believe me.

[TitoBenito]

Home schooling, in my opinion, isn't a good idea. If he or he does everything at home how can s/he possibly learn to function in an idiotic bureaucracy? Where can the child learn that it's not what you do that is important but what other people think you are doing. How can a child learn the most valuable skill in the the modern world, the ability to BS your way through anything. Children must learn to do mindlessly inane activities that serve no end other than to prove that they are willing to do mindlessly inane activities that serve no purpose if they are told to, and also to prove to the state that they have not stopped breathing. For instance a homeschooler will never be graded in high school on how they colored a map in despite the fact they no nothing about what the map is shoowing. Or be graded on the quantity of notes they took on a book, rather than if the understood it or not. These skills will allow them to be able to compete in today's job market, otherwise they will be unsatisfied with their lives and just plain wierd. You may think I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not.

[gigi]

Originally posted by Ross
I personally am very proud of having survived the British private school system, so I had serious doubts about homeschooling - where were the uniforms, the beatings, the dark sarcasm in the classroom?
:D

Anyway, http://www.nheri.org/ has some overview fact sheets (not that detailed, but a start). Click on the "Research" book on the left and scroll to the bottom.

[Manda JO]

My husband and I would like to homeschool our children, if we ever have any and if it is financially feasible. My main motivation is just that I felt like school was such an incredible waste of my time. I spent 12 years bored to tears as we went over the same material over and over and over. Homeschool kids can learn thier academics 8-12 and spend hte afternoons going on field trips to museums, to parks, to visit interesting people, while thier peers are still in class filling out wordfinds and circling the verb.

The socialization is, of course, the big thing, but I think that there are ways around that--and as homescholing gets more popular, I think that we will see more and more associations of homeschoolers that come together to deal with this problem. Furthermore, I don't LIKE the way schools socialize children, I don't think they need alot of that shit. For example, the school system tends to force kids to use age as an important grouping technique--I know so many people that are horribly, horribly uncomfortable when dealing with people 4 years younger or older than themselves becasue they were only socialized with thier grade.

I think that many of the objections that people have to home-schooling come from the myth of a shared cultural experience--the idea that there are things we are "supposed" to be doing at certain ages, and that if we don't, we are "missing out." The fact is that in a country as diverse as America there really is no single, over-arching experience that everyone shares. Furthermore, we are all "missing out" on things--everything we chose to do means that there are a hundred other things we chose not to do. No one can really say which experiences are "best" to have in the long run, and looking back most people tend to assume that the ones they actually had were the important ones.

[Palandine]

My most recent issue of the Libertarian newspaper had an ad in it for Libertarians who want to home school their kids. Obviously, that would fit in with their philosophy that the government certainly should not even be in the business of educating children.

If I am ever fortunate enough to have children and am able to make the sacrifices necessary to stay at home, I would home school. In addition to not feeling that the government should be in the business of educating kids, I am especially uncomfortable with the government providing education about sex and drugs (DARE). That's the parents' job. I also don't want my children to be as limited in the public school system as I was (my high school had a weighted grade system where it was possible to have a grade point average higher than 11 {in this system A was 11, A-10, and so on.} I had a GPA of 11.5 and still my guidance couseler would not allow me to take French 4 and Spanish 1 at the same time my senior year because he thought it would be too much for me. My parents had to intervene).

I had a college professor at Notre Dame who with his wife was home-schooling their 7 children through high school because they didn't think the Catholic schools were Catholic enough. I talked with the 8-year-old son at one point--he was bilingual in German and English (father is Austrian), he was currently reading "Ivanhoe" for his English class (how many public schools teach that to 8-year-olds?), and he was an accomplished soccer player and swimmer at the YMCA, where he had a large number of publicly schooled friends. Spookily bright, but very well-adjusted and friendly.

Obviously, most parents who home school don't have doctorates from Thomas Aquinas College. However, I would think that even the fundamentalist Protestant ones generally have a love for the child that a frazzled public school teacher can never have, an understanding of the child's needs, and time for one-on-one education. What's more, there can be little doubt that children living 100 years ago got a better education in the basics than children today, and they were largely taught by women with only a high school education or a little bit of teachers' college. The St. Louis city school system encourages its teachers to hold DOCTORATES, and it's fighting to keep its accreditation.

Sure, there's bad parents who homeschool merely to crudely indoctrinate their children into a narrow belief system. However, a loving parent who's willing to invest the time can provide a better education than the state system (and at a much, much, much lower cost).

[hapaXL]

Originally posted by TV time
The one thing I have found that was lacking in these young people was that the homeschooled students seem to lack some social skills. They don't know how to deal with groups of people their own ages. When groups of the general population of young people virtually all of them don't "play well with others." They stand off to the side or stand near an adult or play by themselves.

I was very surprised at this. I thought playing with others was natural. Clearly it is a learned skill.

My girlfriend is a kindergarten teacher and had the pleasure of having a previously-homeschooled child in her class. He spent much of the year silently hiding under his desk. By first grade, he actually interacted awkwardly with his classmates occasionally. It was the result of his parents just being way too much into his life.

I think it's a question of what you think is more important: academic excellence or social adjustment. Personally, I think that if you raise your kid right, they'll do well at almost any school (said as a proud product of the Los Angeles Unified School District).

[Primaflora]

I'm a homeschooling parent whose kid has currently decided to check school out. I doubt he will stay there permanently but so far he's OK.

Homeschooling is a huge commitment for the parents but IME a worthwhile one. I've seen less than wonderful homeschooling parents and ones who are fabulous. I've seen religious nutcases who scare me witless. I've seen hothousing parents who scare me witless. I've seen kids who are socially well adjusted and those who are not.

But newsflash! I've seen kids who attend school and I can say the same things of them. IME it is just that because we make the choice which is not the routine choice that we get put under the microscope and our kids get scrutinised.

My kid's back in school and for the last 7 weeks he has done NOTHING academically! The school are waiting for the Guidance Officer to do an assessment so they know what to do. I just got on with teaching him myself ;). The school have been at great pains to point out that he has gaps in his knowledge. I'd hazard a guess that there are kids in M's classroom who attended school for the last three years who also have gaps in their knowledge.

Guin, unschooling is a way of learning where the kids follow their interests. IMO if the parent-teacher is enormously committed and well resourced then it can be a great way to learn but it's a huge commitment. I'm dubious about it WRT core subjects. I can feasibly see it working with a kid who is reading and writing fluently but leaving a kid illiterate until they want to learn to read, gives me the heebiejeebies. However there are unschooled kids who are now in college so I guess it is working for some families.

[Grok]

I've dealt with homeschooled kids in several situations. Mostly I've found them to be bright and precocious. I agree that they can be awkward in some social situations, but this begs a question:

Are the social situations we create in traditional schools healthy?

Being a public school teacher myself, I would argue no. Public schools are structured as they are mainly to push as many kids through as quickly as possible, expending as few resources as possible. I feel most procedures result from the necessity of accomodating the logistics of the situation, and not on what is educationall sound.

Public schools are factories by necessity, and I can't blame anyone for taking their children out of them.

(I continue to teach because I try hard to do things a bit differently, but it's hard. I don't fit in well in the culture of teachers, and am often seen as a troublemaker)

If I had kids I would homeschool or find another alternative.

[ruadh]

I have no personal experience in the matter, but I've often wondered if the social-awkwardness thing might be less to do with the fact that these kids are home-schooled than with the reason some of them are. I mean I'd sort of expect that a child whose parents don't want interacting with the godless heathens at PS 47 is probably going to grow up a little bit weird anyway. Do kids who are home-schooled for other reasons, and who are allowed an otherwise normal social life, have the same problems adjusting?

[Guinastasia]

The only case where unschooling scares me is where those Taking Children Seriously people advocate it. Now THAT'S scary.

[Manda JO]

I've often wondered if the social-awkwardness thing might be less to do with the fact that these kids are home-schooled than with the reason some of them are.

Another possibility is that the reason they are homeschooled is becasue they are socially awkward. I have a cousin who had a lot of emotional problems when he was younger--he needed a few more years to learn to control his anger nad his frustration than what is considered "normal". My aunt homeschooled him, and her other three children. The other three are as sociable as can be, but the one still has a certain degree of social awkwardness. Had he been 'socialized' by the casual brutality of his peers I suspect that it would be even worse, not better.

[wring]

How about some information?? Here's a source (http://homeschooling.about.com/education/homeschooling/library/weekly/aa072999.htm) for homeschooling info by state.

Though many seem to be thinking of home schooling as mom or dad teaching their own child in the home, that's not always the case, there's some folks who join together to have their kids home schooled. I've met home schooled kids in a variety of out-of-school activities. The one thing that I have noticed (anectdotally), is that I'll be surprised to hear this info plopped out during casual conversations with semi strangers (like looking at videos at the video store 'oh, you like Top Secret, too?' "yes, I do, and so does my home schooled daughter that I have here attached to my wrist" - somewhat facetious, but damn close to the reality)

For me, personally, not only did I not choose home schooling, but I went to great lengths to keep my son at an inner city school, vs. the rural damn near segregated one. But that was my personal choice. I guess this isn't the hot button topic for me, but did want to provide some links for folks to peruse. and mostly wanted to add this little aside:

(Freedom, can I please teach your children about politics???? puleeeeeeeeeeze? :D )

[Dolores Reborn]

I work outside the home, and my husband homeschools our son. We are not fundies at all, and not very religious either. We took him out of school in the 9th grade when he refused to do his homework and started failing every class. He had always had trouble with self-discipline, and we tried very hard to communicate with the teachers and keep up with his schoolwork, but if the child doesn't cooperate, (by bringing home the correct books, etc.) parents don't have a lot of control. My son tried to cover up his failing by running away several times, in an attempt to get us (me, mostly) to feel sorry for him, thereby getting out of punishment for bad grades. What a whirlwind we went through with him.

The first year we tried this we decided to fail him, due to his self-discipline problems. The next year turned out better. He certainly didn't want to fail 9th grade again, no excuses could be manufactured for why he didn't do his work, and his Dad and he were getting along better because he had a better attitude. This year has been a bit of a struggle, but he's getting mostly B's. We had to make him quit his job after 6 months and several warnings that his grades were falling.

We hope to let him go back to public school for 11th and 12th grades. Socialization hasn't been too big a problem. We have a large group of friends whose children are my son's friends. The problem has been meeting girls and dating. He hasn't had much of an opportunity for that.

All in all, in our case, homeschooling has worked out well. It was a discipline problem for the most part, but we have succeeded in teaching him how to learn, and how to study.

FWIW, we're in Texas. The school was very cooperative with us when we wanted to take him out of school.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Around here, in Pennsylvania-all you do is go to the school, say you want to home school your kids and that's it. You pull them out, they give you the material, and nothing else.

Our neighbor was sick of the school calling her about how her kids were never behaving or doing their work. She pulled them out on the premise that she was "homeschooling" them, and that's it. She had a sixth grade and a ninth grade dropout. She never teaches them anything, and all they do is make trouble.

I think there's something seriously wrong.

Yeah, I'm with you, but I think there's probably more going on than you realize. Following some of Wring's links (geez, those about.com people have links out the wazoo, ain't they? :D ), here's some Pennsylvania info.

The long version.
http://homeschooling.about.com/education/homeschooling/cs/palegal/index.htm

The short version.
http://www.chapboard.org/getting_started/

You have to file affidavits, keep a log of what you're teaching, have an annual evaluation, and send the kid for testing at regular intervals. Not quite as simple as "you pull your kids out and they give you the material", so there's probably a serious non-compliance factor going on with your neighbor. Salt of the earth, eh? :rolleyes:

[Freedom]

At some point in everyones life, they need to learn how to deal with bullies, drugs, alchohol, social cliques, etc. The earlier the better.

Not only do we disagree on this, but we also probably disagree on the way to deal with the bullies, drugs and alcohol. There is no reason an 8 year old should be thrown to the wolves.


Good idea except... The danger is that you are setting up all your childs activities.

This is easily avoided with a little effort. Besides, there are things my kid is GOING TO DO whether he likes or not, at least until he reaches his teenage years.

If I didn't go to public school, I may never have played hockey in HS. I would certainly not have played in college. I would therefore not have met the guys who asked me to join the particular fraternity I joined and would not have made the connection which helped land me a job with a big-5 management consulting firm.

What you don't know, is that because you were not homeschooled, you missed meeting a budding millionare who would offered you an equal stake in Yahoo! when it was just starting. You would have accepted and then cashed in all your money to buy the Chicago Reader. You would own this board and be an administrator instead of a lowly poster like the rest of us.

The "what if" game is pretty ridiculous. If I'm going to spend my life wondering what would have happened had I turned right instead of left, then I would never get anything done.


The best preparation is experience. You can only teach you kids so much. At some point, they will need to confront the 'bad elements of moder culture'. That is how children build confidence. Not by having their head pumped up full of superiority nonsense.


Would you mind explaining how my children are going to manage to grow up without getting any experiernce? It may be different than yours, but then so is every other kid's childhood who didn't grow up in your country.

While your at it, could you explain the "superiority nonsense" thing? I'm holding my breath to see what rock that line crawled out from under.


Keeping your kids sheltered in home school will only rob them of important experiences they can only get from interacting with their peers.

What makes you think I'm going to shelter them? Was every child in the world born before public schooling sheltered?

.....And I would like to thank TitoBenito for posting the best arguement for homeschooling that I have ever seen. It is so perfect, that I'm sitting here wondering if I missed the joke.




Excepts follow: I almost can't figure out which parts to edit out

If he or he does everything at home how can s/he possibly learn to function in an idiotic bureaucracy?

Where can the child learn that it's not what you do that is important but what other people think you are doing.

How can a child learn the most valuable skill in the the modern world, the ability to BS your way through anything.

Children must learn to do mindlessly inane activities that serve no end other than to prove that they are willing to do mindlessly inane activities that serve no purpose if they are told to, and also to prove to the state that they have not stopped breathing.

For instance a homeschooler will never be graded in high school on how they colored a map in despite the fact they no nothing about what the map is shoowing.

Or be graded on the quantity of notes they took on a book, rather than if the understood it or not. These skills will allow them to be able to compete in today's job market, otherwise they will be unsatisfied with their lives and just plain wierd.


ahhh....


What a perfect arguement for homeschooling. Fortunately for me, I see the world in a different light. Of course, I also work for myself. Employment is not the only option, I'm sorry no one taught(<--see?:)) you that earlier in life.

I think it's a question of what you think is more important: academic excellence or social adjustment.

I think both can be handled better in a homeschool environment, depending on the parents.

but I went to great lengths to keep my son at an inner city school, vs. the rural damn near segregated one.

We are a mixed couple, and our circle of friends is mixed. Our child will never miss out on diversity.

...and no.....

You can't teach them politics until the leaders agree that you have progressed much further than I have seen up to this point.:)

[kniz]

It would seem that not only should the home-schooled children be tested, but also the parents who want to do the home-schooling. Why should teachers be required to meet certain standards and not the parents? I also wonder if home-schooling isn't mostly about "religious", and also possibly "racial" attitudes. There have been other more reasonable reasons given on this thread, but I'm talking about the majority.

[Maera]

We took him out of school in the 9th grade when he refused to do his homework and started failing every class. He had always had trouble with self-discipline, and we tried very hard to communicate with the teachers and keep up with his schoolwork, but if the child doesn't cooperate, (by bringing home the correct books, etc.) parents don't have a lot of control

My girlfriend and I are in much the same situation as Dolores Claiborne. We've lived together for a couple of years, and she has a 16 year old son who has just never gotten good grades in school. When we moved into a new school district last spring, they really went south.

It's a helpless feeling, really. And it's so hard to figure out why. Was it the shock of a new school and new surroundings, was it the hormones of adolescence, was he depressed, did the school just suck, or did he just finally get caught after years of skating by and slipping through the cracks.

The public school system hasn't changed all that much since I was a kid, but the diversity of family situations and living arrangements sure have. Kids have to deal with a lot more turmoil in their lives now than they ever did, and they don't all cope the same. Chris chose to cope by withdrawing from that part of the world over which he had no control. Perhaps there was a time early on in his schooling when he cried out for help. Perhaps his young, single mother who was working two jobs and going to school herself, trying her darndest to give him a decent home, didn't hear it, and neither did his teachers. Whatever his reasons, he found that he never had to pay attention in class, or do homework, but by applying a little common sense to an exam, he could escape with a D. That, and the avoidance of Mom till she had to go to work, and the hassling would never get too bad. Unfortunately (or perhaps rather fortunately as it turns out) in 10th grade things start to get noticibly harder, and Chris, who has never really learned how to study a subject or a problem, who hasn't learned either self discipline or control very well, and who has the shortest attention span I've ever seen, started thinking that maybe dropping out wasn't such a bad idea.

At this point, Chris needs some major intervention, and some long-term one-on-one attention that he can not hope to get within the public school system. After exploring the various options available to us, and speaking with Chris's counselors, we decided to withdraw him from his school, and enroll him in an Internet-based curriculum provided through the Christa McAuliffe Academy http://www.cmacademy.org . The curriculum is accredited through several organizations, including the same one that accredits our local school district, and isn't religiously-affilliated at all.

So far it's been two months, and we're very pleased with the results. I am able to spend 2-3 hours per night with him on his lessons, and really show him how to study. The lessons are all prepared on-line, and they really make good use of graphics so you're not just reading words on the screen all day (boooring). He's showing more interest in his work each day, and we're watching his confidence grow. Status is monitored ruthlessly, and deadlines for work are strictly enforced - so no more con jobs, and he knows it! We know it's just the beginning of a long road, but things look great so far.

The real down-side is that it's so expensive ($250/month). Not everyone who could benefit from a program like this will ever be able to take advantage, and that's a shame.

Maera

[Collounsbury]

I would like to see some nice hard aggregate data. Fuzzy anectdotes and stories about HS tell us nothing in general.

[berdollos]

I regularly pass by a city public school as the students are leaving at the end of a day. For every thirty or so students, only one is carrying books, a book bag, or papers.
I conclude that hardly anyone is doing any homework.

No wonder many of these students flunk the state proficiency exam.

[Shodan]

FWIW, four of the last five kids who won the National Spelling Bee were home schooled.

Most home schooled kids will do as well as any child would with a full time, highly motivated tutor. That is to say, they will be light years ahead of most public school graduates.

Most parents who home school their kids are serious about their responsibilities regarding education. You and I may not agree about all their priorities, but I don't know any home school parents who do not focus like lasers on fundamentals like reading and math, and what is elementary school for besides that?

I have forgotten most of what I learned in high school, anyway, so I doubt if the disadvantage of having a different curriculum from the public schools outweighs the advantage of being tutored by someone who was totally disinterested in excuses or theories.

My kids go to a Christian private school, and my experience is that yes, most home school parents are conservative Christians (at least in this area). But my kids' school has lots of after school activities into which home schooled kids of the area are welcomed, so by and large the home schooled kids are not as un-socialized as you might assume.

My expectation is that with home schooling, the parents set the agenda, not the public school, so the child will not have the same experience as someone who went to a public school. For better or for worse. So no drugs, no bullying, fewer dates, a greater focus on academics, and all the rest of it.

Regards,
Shodan

[Dangerosa]

There are parents who homeschool because they think they can give their kids a better education who are right - and there are those who think the same thing and are wrong.

There are parents who are sheltering their kids from public school - for good reasons (i.e. school with students out of control), and for bad ones (want children to be completely innocent to pop culture).

There are kids who do well when their parents teach them, and kids who do poorly. There are well adjusted home schooled kids, and ones that couldn't find a social skill with both hands. Both these things are also true for kids who go to public school, even the worst ones, and kids who go to private school - even the really good expensive ones have kids who don't do well and aren't well adjusted.

There are parents who are good intentioned and do well, and those that have a hard time following through.

I had a homeschooled kid in one of my courses in college - nice, well-adjusted, bright. But then the failures don't get accepted to Universities, and the poorly adjusted ones who aced their SATs don't meet for coffee so you learn about them and blame homeschooling for their poor adjustment. The ones that can't spell aren't going to their regional bees to begin with. The general public sees a very self-selected group of homeschooled kids.

From the debate here in Minnesota recently, you aren't going to get good stats - there is a significant percentage of these people who are homeschooling to keep the government out of their lives, and aren't real excited about people poking.

[Primaflora]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
I would like to see some nice hard aggregate data. Fuzzy anectdotes and stories about HS tell us nothing in general.

There isn't any. IMO there won't ever be any. Take me FI and many others I know, due to the laws in my state, I'm an illegal homeschooler. I don't appear anywhere on any assessment of homeschooling. I'm illegal because the law is an ass WRT my particular kid. To get any hard research done of people who don't necessarily co-operatewith the state and many of whom do not believe in grading or assessment is going to be a hard task.

There was a study done which showed incredibly good results a couple of years ago. However IMO it was a worthless piece of research because it only used students of the Bob Jones Academy as the research body. There was a lot of generalisation from this study on the homeschooling lists and sites but geez, people! All it showed was that if you were middleclass and could afford Bob Jones Academy you had a chance of doing well.

[Guinastasia]

Wouldn't be surprised with my neighbor. Knowing her, she's having someone fudging something, or she knows someone who's involved with the testing or something. Because those kids are just juvenile delinquents. They're MOVING, thank god, I can't wait. All they do is cause trouble.

[Manda JO]

Though I normally agree that fuzzy anecdotes are mostly noise that obscures actual information, I think they are useful when making a decision about something as varible as homeschooling: Using "hard data" on the sucess of homeschooling to decide whether or not to homeschool a particular child would be like using "hard data" about the effectivness of marrige to decide whether or not to marry a particular person.

[panzermanpanzerman]

I had debated this subject before, and had clippings of something called "The Ray Study" lying around on my hard drive.

So I'll just paste those excerpts here, for the moment, as they were very surprising to me.

...A recent study conducted by Dr. Brian Ray, president of the National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI) provides some answers.
This study, Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America, collected data on 5,402 home school students from 1,657 families for the 1994-95 and 1995-96 academic years. Nearly 6,000 surveys were sent to home school families using a variety of sources and methods. Some were mailed directly to families (both those randomly selected from numerous mailing lists as well as longitudinal participants from Ray’s similar study in 1990). Others were blindly forwarded to families through the leadership of independent home school support groups and networks operating in every state. Unquestionably, this research represents the largest and most comprehensive study on home schooling every undertaken (see Ray, 1997).

[...]

Conclusion: This study demonstrates that home schooling works. It suggests that direct parental involvement and hard work are the keys to educational success. Regardless of race, gender, socioeconomic status, parent education level, teacher certification, or the degree of government regulation, the academic achievement scores of home educated students significantly exceed those of public school students. Home school students are fully engaged in society and experience a wide range of opportunities outside the home. They are smart users of both technology and their time. And graduates are equipped to pursue their aspirations — work or college. Contrary to the often speculative opinions of critics, the facts from this study demonstrate success.

Is Dr. Ray unbiased? No.

Are his methods sound? I think he did a reasonably good job with an extremely difficult to sample group.

As for the "socialization" argument against homeschooling, I think it's nonsense. I mean, homeschoolers typically don't homeschool in a vacuum. They form coops, and maintain networks, and go on field trips. At least the ones I know do. And they are pretty organized, politically.

I'd be honored to homeschool my children.

Still looking for the right mother, though. :-)

{edited for copyright infringement. Post only *short* excerpts, if you must, or preferably a link. --Gaudere}


[Edited by Gaudere on 04-03-2001 at 02:40 AM]

[Dangerosa]

People who responded to Dr. Ray's survey self selected themselves to respond. So, if your kid was not successful and you didn't respond due to that (or if you were passive and not likely to respond to the survey), your kid is not being represented in the results. He sent out 6,000 surveys and got 1,657 back - a very good response rate for a survey.

I don't think you CAN get good data from this group without doing things that many of them would see as being serious intrusions into their lives. Perhaps a pertainent question is, "do we, as a society, have a prevailing interesting in requiring these students to take standardized test and report their scores to the state?" That would get better data (still, you'd have the folks not in compliance with the law, but the data would likely be better).

[msmith537]

Originally posted by yosemitebabe
This can start to be a "what hell school is" thread, and I am not intending that. What I am saying is that you gotta make sure that the kid is missing out in something that should not be missed. Being stuck in a Hell where all you learn is that there is no protection from bullies and no justice (a lesson I did learn in school, and which took me a while to overcome) is definitely WORTH missing. Believe me.

The reality is the world is a cruel place. There are bullies all through life. The guy in college who steals your paper and turns it in as his own. The asshole boss who likes to ridicule his employees. At some point, your kid is going to have to learn how to deal with them. You don't help your kid by sheltering them their entire life.

When I was growing up, my mom told me to deal with bullies by ignoring them. My dad showed me the basics of of to protect myself and throw a decent punch. I figured out on my own which approach worked for a given situation.


Originally posted by Freedom
Not only do we disagree on this, but we also probably disagree on the way to deal with the bullies, drugs and alcohol. There is no reason an 8 year old should be thrown to the wolves.
...

...
Would you mind explaining how my children are going to manage to grow up without getting any experiernce? It may be different than yours, but then so is every other kid's childhood who didn't grow up in your country.
...

...
What makes you think I'm going to shelter them? Was every child in the world born before public schooling sheltered?



Basically, you are creating this "perfect little world" for them. There are no bullies. No negative influences. Pretty much nothing to ever test their character. Your child will never be exposed to any values, ideas, or subject matter that were not filtered through you. You have to be pretty arrogant to think that have the answer to everything.

At some point, your kid will have to deal with subjects like drugs, bullies, racism, etc as more than abstract concepts.


Originally posted by Freedom
While your at it, could you explain the "superiority nonsense" thing? I'm holding my breath to see what rock that line crawled out from under.


Originally posted by Badtz Maru
Not only could I give my kids an advantage academically, I want to try to lead them away from a lot of elements of modern culture that are unavoidable at a school. I'm not going to shelter them from the world as prepare them for it ahead of time. I'm also going to give them a nice healthy superiority complex - that is, if I can.


It crawled out from under Badtz's rock. Have him explain it.





Originally posted by Freedom
If he or he does everything at home how can s/he possibly learn to function in an idiotic bureaucracy?

Where can the child learn that it's not what you do that is important but what other people think you are doing.

How can a child learn the most valuable skill in the the modern world, the ability to BS your way through anything.

Children must learn to do mindlessly inane activities that serve no end other than to prove that they are willing to do mindlessly inane activities that serve no purpose if they are told to, and also to prove to the state that they have not stopped breathing.


“It will prepare them for their future careers working in our nations mills and factories."- Principal Skinner, The Simpsons

"Me have bad English? That's unpossible." - Ralph Wiggum, The Simpsons



For instance a homeschooler will never be graded in high school on how they colored a map in despite the fact they no nothing about what the map is shoowing.


Did this person go to regular school or homeschool? :)



We are a mixed couple, and our circle of friends is mixed. Our child will never miss out on diversity.


Your child will miss out on learning how to make friends who aren't introduced to him by his parents.

[yosemite]

The reality is the world is a cruel place. There are bullies all through life. The guy in college who steals your paper and turns it in as his own. The asshole boss who likes to ridicule his employees. At some point, your kid is going to have to learn how to deal with them. You don't help your kid by sheltering them their entire life.

The hellish experiences I endured in school rarely had any relation to the real world. Sure, the world is a cruel place. I didn't get into the art show that I worked so hard for. That's tough, but a good lesson to learn while you're still young. I am not the prettiest girl. OK, so there's more than beauty, get over it. Strangers on the street can be rude. That's the cruel world for you. But deal with it. All these things I needed to learn. But I believe all these things can be learned without the hell and torment of some school settings.

Being trapped in a room full of little adolescent demons who torment you, physically harm you, while an adult (the only authority figure around) looks the other way does NOT reflect any reality I've experienced in my adulthood. It has never reflected anything I've experienced since. It is just a miserable memory that has scarred me, and has taken me quite a while to overcome.

I did not learn how to "cope" with the Real Cruel World from these experiences. Among many warped things I learned, I learned that authority figures are useless and ineffectual. When I was molested (I guess you could call it that - "aggressively groped" to be exact) as an adolescent, I didn't tell anyone. I had it in my head that it would be useless to do so. I'd NEVER seen any justice done towards the bullies, so why bother? I worried that all it would do is get the groping creeps to target me again. Where did I learn that from? The classroom. Do you think that was a good lesson for a young female person to learn? Is this your idea of the Real World that kids so desperately need to learn about, and should not be sheltered from?

[Badtz Maru]

My experience in school was nothing like 'real life'. As messed up as the world is, it's nowhere near as bad as school can be.

When folks like me say they don't want their kid exposed to the pressures and follys of public school, some people assume that I am wanting to shelter my children from all contact with their peers. I don't plan on that. I think my kids will have plenty of opportunities to learn how to deal with bullying, peer pressure, etc. from their contact with kids outside of school. They can learn how to deal with authority figures through their dealings with me.

As to the 'superiority complex' comment, I truly mean it. I want my kid to think he or she is better than most other people, and I believe it will probably be true. The only alternatives are to believe they are average, or to believe that they are inferior. I was stuck with the latter for most of my life. I was smarter than most of the kids in the various schools I went to, tested at 4th year of college level in standardized tests from 3rd grade on, and my IQ is in the top tenth of the top percent. Despite this (or because of this) I spent most of my childhood and all of my teenage years thinking there was something wrong with me because of the way my peers and teachers ground me down. This carried over into my adulthood, I spent years working low-paying parttime jobs because I lacked the ambition to try to get anything better, I was constantly depressed and relied on drugs to make life bearable and to relate to my friends, I attempted suicide once, contemplated it daily, and was reckless about my own safety because I attached no value to myself. Public school did this to me. As soon as my self-opinion improved my life took off, now I make decent money, have a lovely wife, nice apartment, etc...but I realize that I could have had all this years ago if I hadn't been led to believe I was worthless, and that wouldn't have happened had I been home schooled. Hopefully my kids won't have to go through that, but even if they are I'm going to try to help them with my own experience as much as possible.

[yosemite]

Good post Badtz, and far be it for me to advise you on how to rear your (future) children. (But here I go anyway...) I have seen what happens when kids are raised thinking they are "superior". It's not pretty. Especially since these kids are never superior in everything (but they'll still think they are.) The cruel let-down they experience when the reality hits them that they are not "all that" in everything can be pretty harmful. And often these kids go on to have hang-ups of a different kind.

There needs to be some sort of delicate balance with this sort of thing. A person should have a lot of belief in themselves and their abilities. But, they should be able to recognize their weaknesses, without obsessing over them. And they should be able to recognize that there are people out there that possess strengths that they do not. I think this is what would be called "healthy" humility, and I'm all for it.

Well, sorry for the hijack there...

[Dangerosa]

An alternate experience....

I went to public high school....it was hell...I was ridiculed.....all the rest. I had few friends. I was depressed. I left school early and started college early. College was not like high school. It was great.

Got to real life. It was worse than high school. My boss sexually harrassed me. I was riduculed by my coworkers who were intimidated by me. I was surrounded by small minds once again. - At least with high school there was an end in sight and I wasn't worried about getting fired for not putting out and not being able to make my house payment. I went through several jobs finding a good fit (and changing myself along the way to make myself a better fit.) I was single and dating and had to put to good use that "jerk radar" and bullshit detector I'd developed in high school.

Glad I went to public school (how I begged my parents to get me out of there). It really did prepare me for people can be jerks and you have to do useless things in life to get through.

Yeah, high school can really suck. But it does have some up sides, and can be valuable.

For anyone thinking about homeschooling their kids - it is a huge committment. Weigh it well. Look at the cons as well as the pros. Look at your kids needs as well as your own. I think you are doing yourself and you kids a disservice if you don't even have them yet and have already decided to homeschool - you don't know their temperment, you don't know what it is like to parent 24 hours a day - you are making a decision based on your high school experience and what you see of the public school system from the outside. That doesn't seem to different to me than a dad who didn't make first string football and is pushing his two year old to practice. Your children are not you. Schools change a lot over time - even just from year to year as the makeup of a class changes.

On the other hand, don't assume automatically that public school is the only place for your kids. Some kids need something different. Some schools are not appropriate places for kids. Homeschooling or private schools are both possible options under those circumstances.

My kids are still little. Before I became a parent, I had homeschool thoughts. Now I know I don't have the patience or drive for it. I also know already that my son is too gregarious for it - he requires a lot of social interaction. I also assumed that "I'm bright, my hubby's bright, we will have bright kids and they won't do well at public school" --- Well, my son is adopted, my genes aren't contributing to much brain power (though he seems bright enough, who knows). My daughter is too young to tell, but some of my bright friends have not so bright kids - it doen't always follow.

[Freedom]

msmith537


I find it irionic that you don't see the similarities of the actual chioce between homeschooling and sending your kids off to public school.


You endow me with magical powers to create a Utopia around my child, micro-manage every detail of his life, and have it all come out to some perfectly fantasy-like childhood that would (presumably) end abrubtly at 18 when he is tossed out into the real world.(whatever that is)


Yet somehow, you prefer a system where the parent makes an equivalent choice about about their child's future and the people he will meet (sending them to public school vs. homeschooling). The school will POORLY attempt to micromange their lives, schedule every minute of their day, and trap them with all sorts of people they would never willingly associate with. Whether or not they educate the child more or less than you would have is irrelevant.



I maintain that at the point where you have to make a choice between sending your child to PS or keep them home for homeschooling, you are making a choice that has equal relevance over their future.

ie: You are no more "controlling" and "sheltering" of your child when you homeschool than you are when you send them off to public school.

You are merely choosing to make decisions regarding your child on a individual basis, as opposed to the (supposedly) most efficient manner of educating the greatest number of chidren.



Pretty much nothing to ever test their character.

I think it is insane to imagine that any person could raise a child without the child ever having their charachter tested. Homeschooling is not some suspension of reality where the real world refuses to intrude.

At some point, your kid will have to deal with subjects like drugs, bullies, racism, etc as more than abstract concepts.





Ohh.....

You see, I was talking about HOMESCHOOLING.....

You seem to be talking about locking your child in the basement and then setting him free at 18.

I still fail to understand why you think homeschooling could ever be as utopian as you suggest.

Your child will miss out on learning how to make friends who aren't introduced to him by his parents.


This line of thinking is getting old to me.

If he goes to public school, then will he only meet people the school chooses to introduce to him?

I'll say it again.

I'm talking about HOMESCHOOLING, not locking him in the basement.

I live in NJ. It's a pretty densely populated state. I don't live in Montana where the nearest neighbor is 3 miles away. If I even WANTED to control my child in the manner you're proposing, I don't think it could be done. The funny thing is, I see homeschooling as a giving the child MORE freedom and potential, not as a means to micromange every aspect of their lives.

[msmith537]

Freedom - Who are all these people your child would never willingly associate? I hate to tell you this, but if you in a school of 1000 people and you can't find at least one person you want to associate with, the problem is probably with you. Part of life is dealing with people you can't stand. I find half of my coworkers stupid and abrasive but I still have to work with them.


In public school, your kid will probably have a dozen different teachers. Some will be good and some will suck. Each teacher will have different philosophies, ideals, etc. In home school, your kid gets one teacher. You. And quite frankly, you seem to have a lot of baggage regarding your school experiences.

So who's your kid going to meet in home school? All the other kids in the neighborhood will be at regular school during the day (when you should be teaching junior math and social studies anyway). So when all the other kids get off the bus in the afternoon, are they going to hang out with the home school boy?



Badtz - Why don't you teach your kid how to get along with other people without thinking he's better than them. There's a difference between acting confident and acting supperior. Going into high school acting supperior to everyone is a good way to catch a beating.

[Freedom]

Cause you see....you just have to be on crack the way you are posting.


Who are all these people your child would never willingly associate? I hate to tell you this, but if you in a school of 1000 people and you can't find at least one person you want to associate with, the problem is probably with you.


Where did I ever say this?


And quite frankly, you seem to have a lot of baggage regarding your school experiences.

I can't see any evidence from this thread, or any of my posts on the board that I have any a lot of baggage from High School. Is my desire to homeschool evidence enough for you, are there specific things I posted that make you think this, or is it just the crack?


So when all the other kids get off the bus in the afternoon, are they going to hang out with the home school boy?





To be honest, it sounds like YOU are the one with issues.

[drachillix]

Originally posted by Freedom

Who are all these people your child would never willingly associate? I hate to tell you this, but if you in a school of 1000 people and you can't find at least one person you want to associate with, the problem is probably with you.


Where did I ever say this?

[quote]
The school will POORLY attempt to micromange their lives, schedule every minute of their day, and trap them with all sorts of people they would never willingly associate with. Whether or not they educate the child more or less than you would have is irrelevant.


thats you buddy


To be honest, it sounds like YOU are the one with issues.


This ad hominum attack brought to you by freedom

[Freedom]

Surely you can understand the difference between "not being able to find one person in a thousand you would willingly asociate with" and "traps them with all sorts of people they would never willingly associate with. "


I don't think the average person comes close to keeping in touch with anything but a handful of people from HS after they graduate. If you want to claim that there are not people schooled together in the same buliding that would not hang out socially later on in life, then I think you are way off base here.

I never said I never had any friends in HS, I never said there wasn't a person I didn't like knowing in my school. My point was not about the positive influences, but about all the NEGATIVE ones you are forced to spend 4 years with.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by Freedom
Who are all these people your child would never willingly associate? I hate to tell you this, but if you in a school of 1000 people and you can't find at least one person you want to associate with, the problem is probably with you.


Where did I ever say this?


I think drachillix covered this one.


Originally posted by Freedom
So when all the other kids get off the bus in the afternoon, are they going to hang out with the home school boy?


To be honest, it sounds like YOU are the one with issues.


Just being realistic. While you kid is at home, all his peers are in school building relationships with each other. It just makes it that much more difficult for him to make friends.



Originally posted by Freedom
Is my desire to homeschool evidence enough for you, are there specific things I posted that make you think this, or is it just the crack?


At no point did I personally insult you. If this is how you react to people who disagree with you, it's no wonder you had problems in high school.

[Freedom]

I think drachillix covered this one.

Maybe it's just me, but that point doesn't even seem remotely covered.

[Freedom]

...but anyway.....


:)

Homeless Homeschooler Aces SAT (http://thekcrachannel.com/sac/news/localnews/stories/news-localnews-57467220010405-100458.html)

Does that make him street schooled?

....snip....

Trevor Loflin (pictured, left) should feel good. The 17-year-old scored a perfect 800 on the verbal section and 800 on the math section of the Scholastic Aptitude Test.


....snip....


Loflin not only got the score without the benefit of a home, he got it without a school, because he is home-schooled. He said that his mom has been a great teacher.