Use of magnets in healing

[Sycorax]

There's a lot of controversy about the current popularity of magnets being used for healing. I didn't have an opinion one way or the other, but recently had my own experience with them. Would like to know if anyone else has used them and improved. I hurt my back while boating (I was in the bow, boat hit someone's wake, and I bounced up in the air and came down on my butt hard - the pain in my back was excruciating - I figured I'd compressed a disk or shocked the spine or something. Ayway, I had to move and walk very carefully for a few days, gobbled Motrin (which helped). I bought a lower lumbar cushion for my office chair; it had magnets in it. I didn't buy it because it had magnets, but simply because it fit the chair well and was inexpensive, and all I was going for was support for the back. After about a week, one day I noticed I had NO pain in my back. None. I had cut way back on the Motrin. I didn't even think about the magnets - I was just very happy that the back had gotten better and so fast. (I had been envisioning another operation for a herniated disk.) Then a few days later, as I sat in the chair, I could see the magnets thru the fabric, and I thought, could that be why my back is so much better? Don't get me wrong - the back still bothers me some times, especially in the morning when I get out of bed, but it seems truly amazing that most of the time I have no pain. My knees are a problem (arthritis, I guess), and I'm seriously thinking about trying to find something for them with magnets.

[radar ralf]

Can't help remembering the commercial on TV of the guy standing in front of the 'fridge late at night looking for a snack - he suddenly sees the little magnets on the 'fridge and presses one on each side of his head! I crack up every time I see that ad! Now then, time to serious up, here. My dad swears by magnet therapy and also wears a copper bracelet. He says his arthritis is much more tolerable since he started these two methods. I am of the opinion that (as stated in another thread here somewhere about placebos), dad has willed himself to feel better. As far as I am concerned, whatever it takes! If a person has undeniable better health as a result of any therapy or regimen, I say "go for it!", as long as the method is not actually detrimental to their well-being.

There is absolutely no good double-blind placebo-controlled peer-reviewed study with evidence for magnet therapy.

That being said, there is a long trail of less-than-stellar results for Motrin, muscle relaxants, physical therapy, bedrest, chiropractic, manipulation and other doctor-recommended treatments for speeding recovery from a back injury.

If you are injured enough to miss work, I would always recommend seeing a doc ASAP for an evaluation and to make sure something more than muscle strain and/or ligamentous injury is not going on. If not, magnet therapy can't be faulted on safety, or on unreasonable expense (unless you're buying a magnetic bed or something). Many people swear by it, and really don't care whether the magnet itself, or their belief in the magnet, made them better. They're just glad they're better.

btw, once you're at the nearly pain-free point, I would strongly recommend pursuing abdominal exercises to decrease the likeliness of future back problems. Use common sense, exercise to the point where the abdominal muscles hurt, but stop if the back is hurting. Start with crunches before trying full-range-of-motion exercises like sit-ups. Good luck!

------------------
Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html (http://members.aol.com/majormd/index.html)

[E1skeptic]

Why don't you check this out: magnetictherapy (http://www.csicop.org/si/9807/index.html) ?

------------------
Men will cease to commit atrocities only when they cease to believe absurdities.
-Voltaire

[JillGat]

Cecil just addressed this in a column recently:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/990618.html

[Ennius]

And there is a discussion of it--I'm too lazy to find the link--on the columns message board. And the question is handled quite deftly and logically by, well, me.

[tracer]

Cristi, did your hubby continue to wear the bracelet after the pain went away?

[Persephone]

Tracer: Yes, he is wearing it pretty much all the time, except for showering. It's not very big, so it doesn't interfere with his guitar playing. He's not been complaining about any pain at all. I've told him he should take it off for a few days, just to test & see if it really is the magnets doing any good. He's going to wear it tonight, when he plays, then take it off for a couple of days. He's only been wearing it for two days now, so we don't really know if it's the copper & magnets, or if it's more of a psychosomatic thing, like the other posters have suggested. If it's not psychosomatic, I sure as heck would be interested in finding out just what the deal is with these things!

[tracer]

BTW -- here's an Onion article semi-relevant to the topic at hand.

"Revolutionary New Insole Combines Five Different Forms of Pseudoscience" -- http://www.theonion.com/onion3512/new_insoles.html

------------------
Visit the Internet Stellar Database at www.stellar-database.com (http://www.stellar-database.com)

[Persephone]

My husband has been having problems with his left arm recently. He's tried nearly everything to make the pain go away. He stumbled across a post on a guitar player's message board, extolling the virtues of magnets. A few days ago, he bought an inexpensive copper bracelet, with magnets in it. The pain went away very quickly--we're talking a few hours here. The muscles in his arm are noticably more relaxed. Weird.

I'm not going to sit here & say "Magnets are the medicine of the future!" I have no idea why it's working for him. It just is, and he's not whining about it anymore. By the way, he bought a bracelet for his bass player, who was having similar problems. The bracelet is having similar results for him, too. Go figure.

[handy]

Isn't the human body naturally magnetic to some point already? In other words, gives out a little bit of magnetism.

[Carl Berry]

I've used magnetic therapy & had good results. IT may have been psychosomatic or the placebo effect, I don't care, it workerd. I know a man who has race horses his Vet uses it. No placebo effect there!

------------------
Zymurgist

[bantmof]

Then a few days later, as I sat in the chair, I could see the magnets thru the fabric, and I thought, could that be why my back is so much better?
"Correlation does not imply causation". Please stay after class and write that one hundred times on the chalkboard. ;-)

--
peas on earth

[Sycorax]

Bantmof - yes, I know that; I was merely making the point that I hadn't considered magnets as the reason for my improved condition until I noticed them, then realized that MAYBE they had something to do with it. I still don't know, but the improvement was so dramatic (and I had been in a LOT of pain), I am going to try them for my bad knee. Can't hurt - might help.

[handy]

Try the phone book, find a magnet shop [ they have shops that sell magnets for refrig's etc] ask the clerk how long they stay well.

[Sycorax]

handy - you have to put the magnet on your body, not the refrigerator.

[handy]

Yeah Sycorax, but they handle them all day long...

[Sycorax]

Jeez...are you putting me on or what? I don't think intermittent touching is adequate, but in any case, you must put the magnet on the problem spot.
If the store clerk had a sore finger, maybe picking up magnets off and on all day would help it, but it wouldn't help a bad back.

[David B]

Carl noted that somebody used magnets on his horse and indicated there couldn't be a placebo effect there.

Well, you might be surprised.

I don't have the book I'm currently reading handy, but at one point the author noted a scientist had done a test on rats that indicated they could, indeed, be affected by a placebo type of effect.

That aside, as has already been noted, correlation is not causation. Just because this guy may have used it on horses and the horses got better does not mean the magnet did anything. They may have been injuries that would heal normally on their own.

Incidentally, the previous thread on this topic in the area for comments on Cecil's columns can be found at: http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000138.html

[tracer]

David B wrote:

I don't have the book I'm currently reading handy, but at one point the author noted a scientist had done a test on rats that indicated they could, indeed, be affected by a placebo type of effect.

You also have to remember that, for a suspected cure to be proven effective, it must pass a double-blind placebo trial.

The guy who was putting magnets on his horses knew he was putting magnets on them. He expected these magnets to enchance the horses' health. He may have looked more carefully for signs of recovery, and been more inclined to count a marginal case as "cured", than he would've been in the "normal" circumstance when he wasn't using magnets.

Now, if he had put real magnets on half his horses, and non-magnetic placebos on the other half, and didn't know which was which, then a result showing that the half who had the magnets recovered faster or stayed healthier would be significant.

------------------
Visit the Internet Stellar Database at www.stellar-database.com (http://www.stellar-database.com)

[Johnny Angel]

When the Placebo Effect comes up in these discussions, somebody usually says, "If it works, who cares?"

The reason this is not an adequate response to the problem is that the placebo effect is not an effect on the disease -- it's an effect on observable symptoms. If you believe that magnets make the pain go away, and it therefore works, whatever caused the pain has still not gone away. It's just easier to ignore.

[BoBettie]

I have a bad back that responds to little- I've never had a "placebo effect" pain relief before, no matter the drug or therapy. I am going to try the magnets (can't hurt) and let you know. Since I have a genuine chronic pain problem, it should be pretty easy to see if it helps or not.
I'll post my results here, for anyone who's interested..
As a side note, by MIL, who has TERRIBLE crippling arthritis has been wearing a magnetic bracelet, and she says it's really helping her a lot. I doubt she would have placebo effect relief, as her pain is very bad and very chronic. If she could have wished it away, she would have- long ago. You can actually see that the muscles are relaxing in her hand, and her fingers are really straightening out for her.


------------------
I'm very lucky. The only time I was ever up shit creek, I just happened to have a paddle with me.
--George Carlin

[Johnny Angel]

Yes, yes. You assume that the placebo effect is predictable, so that it should work equally well in every case. Therefore, whatever she was trying when the pain went away must be genuine.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

When the Placebo Effect comes up in these discussions, somebody usually says, "If it works, who cares?"
The reason this is not an adequate response to the problem is that the placebo effect is not an effect on the disease -- it's an effect on observable symptoms. If you believe that magnets make the pain go away, and it therefore works, whatever caused the pain has still not gone away. It's just easier to ignore.
- Johnny Angel


Ah, but which is more important, the symptom or the disease? Having been both patient & physician, I can say it depends where you're sitting.

Given that a competent health professional has done a reasonable evaluation of a painful joint to rule out broken bones, serious inflammation, which would get worse with continued movement, or torn ligaments which would make the joint unstable, the best treatment is using the joint. But this hurts, so people walk around with their neck crooked, or limp, or use a wrist brace (allowing muscles to atrophy) instead of relaxing the muscles and allowing the body to heal itself. Get rid of the pain & you get rid of the underlying problem.

There is a lot about the body that we know about that is proven in accordance with accepted scientific methods. There is a lot that is not known. I've yet to hear of a magnetic bracelet or back pad causing a life-threatening hemorrhage from an ulcer, which can and does happen with regularity from conventional "scientifically proven" therapies like Motrin.

"First do no harm".

------------------
Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html (http://members.aol.com/majormd/index.html)

[Johnny Angel]

Of course, since magnets have no measurable effect at all, it can't possibly be a harmful one. Now if it were the case that the alleviation of pain was in itself sufficient to affect the alleviation of the condition causing the pain, then that itself would be measurable and would provide evidence in support of the therapy. But that evidence has not arisen.

[JillGat]

[[Tracer: Yes, he is wearing it pretty much all the time, except for
showering.]]

I'm no computer expert, but I would think wearing a magnetized bracelet while using your computer would be an unwise thing to do.

[tracer]

Especially around floppy disks or Zip[TM] Disks.

BTW, how tightly are these bracelets being worn? I'll bet if you tie a torniquet around your wrist tightly enough, you'll never feel any pain in your hand ever again.

------------------
Visit the Internet Stellar Database at www.stellar-database.com (http://www.stellar-database.com)

[Sycorax]

Yes, zette, please let me know how it works out for you -- post here or reply by e-mail.
I found a bunch of magnets in a mail order catalogue (and cheap too) that you can fit to any part of your body and I'm going to try them. Thanks for all the input guys.

[Persephone]

I'm no computer expert, but I would think wearing a magnetized bracelet while using your computer would be an unwise thing to do.

I'm no computer expert either. What will the magnets do? I know that they are not strong magnets at all, and the keyboard is approximately 2 feet from the computer itself.

And the only floppy disks we have are old & never used, and stored in another room. Really. The CD's we have are also kept away from the computer, where my 2 year old can't get at them. Will these magnets do any damage to CD's?

[David B]

Tracer has already noted the main problem with claiming the placebo effect could not be present in an animal.

But I found the part of the book I was referring to, and wanted to relate it. It is The Undiscovered Mind, by John Horgan. It actually is more of the "nocebo" effect, the flip-side of the placebo effect, in which negative (rather than positive) expectations become self-fulfilling:

"The psychologist Robert Ader of the University of Rochester gave rats saccharine-flavored water containing cyclophosphamide, a compound that causes nausea and severely suppresses the immune system. All the rats became sick, and many died. Ader then gave the survivors saccharine-sweetened water containing no cyclophosphamide. These rats, conditioned by their previous exposure, became sick as well, and some even died. The sweet-tasting water alone was enough to suppress their immune systems fatally." (p. 88)

[realm505]

WARNING:A random thought;

It's has been mentioned that cults would put magnets under the pillows of the followers. Supposedly, the magnets would reprogram or rewire the brain's connections, braking down their defense mechanism.

I don't think that wearing magnets around you wrist would do anything to one's psyche.
just some food for thought there.

My opinion, Try laughter.
True story:

A friend of the late Allen Funt, Norman Cousins was prognossed with Collagen diease - the connective tissues in the spine and joints disintegrate. He had a 500 to 1 chance of recovery. anyway, Allen gave Norman the funniest clips from his show; Candid Camera. Norman would surround himself with humor. Before going to bed, he would watch the clips. the laughing would release endorphins. Giving him two hous of painless sleep.
time marched on, and in three weeks he was on the road to recovery, and made a full recovery (sorry for the reduency).

Try that, I may help you too!

[bantmof]

Will these magnets do any damage to CD's?
I guess you could scratch the CD with the magnet.

Otherwise no. Plain old CD's are read optically, not magnetically.

--
peas on earth

[bantmof]

Bantmof - yes, I know that; I was merely making the point that I hadn't considered magnets as the reason for my improved condition until I noticed them, then realized that MAYBE they had something to do with it. I still don't know, but the improvement was so dramatic (and I had been in a LOT of pain), I am going to try them for my bad knee. Can't hurt - might help.
Indeed. Can't hurt.

In fact, you know what? A while back, I was having problems with my left knee from too much bike riding. Then, I rested it for a few days and it felt better, but afterwords I realized that right before it felt better, I had been listening to Chopin Nocturns each evening.

Now, before that I had not even considered that _maybe_ the Chopin music was the reason for my improved condition. Then, I thought MAYBE it had something to do with it. I still don't know, but the improvement over just a few days (of an injury I'd had for months) was so dramatic, that I'm going to try the same music on headaches. Can't hurt - might help.

Ok, you might sense I'm not being completely serious here. But my point is that you have to be careful with this sort of thinking, because at best it's harmless, but at worst it leads people to do things which are actively harmful (either financially or medically), or substitute placebos for needed medical care for serious problems. People look at _other_ people's placebos and say, "oh, that's silly, I'd never fall for _that_", but then they do the very same thing in different ways.

There's no known causal mechanism for magnets to improve health in that way, and current physics understands magnetism pretty darned well. And there are no double blind medical studies showing they have such an effect, either, although it has been looked for. It seems reasonable to conclude they don't. Magnets will be harmless, and free... but be careful of how far you go with this sort of thing.
--
peas on earth

[prleone]

It sounds like Sycorax took a blosw, made precautions and healed. If anyone needs a rock that keeps tigers away (like Lisa Simpson had), I'll sell it for a quarter.

[David B]

Saw a couple of articles on this subject that should be of interest. The first is from Science Daily, talking about an article on the subject:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/09/990909071842.htm

The second is, well, the article on the subject, from the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-09/08/076l-090899-idx.html

[bantmof]

The Washington Post printed that article? I'm impressed. Usually mass-media news articles about science are so dumbed down as to be completely worthless. This one actually seemed to be an exception - even mentioned the units for magnetic flux density. Good article!

Excerpted from said article, a quote by someone trying to heal himself with magnets:
I don't know how magnets work, but they were using them in China thousands of years ago.
It's really amazing how many people think like this, even amoung reasonably educated people. There's certainly no shortage of scientific illiteracy about, is there?

--
peas on earth

[David B]

Bantmof -- I'm glad you quoted that line. I see it so often that steam tends to shoot out of my ears when somebody uses it thinking that it's some logical proof.

[AuraSeer]

On magnets and computers:

Do not wear a magnetic bracelet if you'll be working with floppies. Cheap disks can have their data corrupted even by a relatively weak magnetic field.

Keyboards are mostly immune to magnetic screwups. You might get some weird effects if you have one of those macro-programmable jobbies, but other than that you needn't worry.

Do not attach refrigerator magnets to the metal case of your PC. This will make Bad Things happen.

------------------
Laugh hard; it's a long way to the bank.