I pit churches that exist to attack other churches

[the_diego]

It reminds me of MBA class and all this talk about competitive market positioning. There's nothing wrong with saying you're the true church of Christ or God but saying flat out that other churches are pagan or, at the least, not of God or Jesus is, I think, un-Christian.

And before some people turn this into a Great Debate thread, I would like to say that I'm agnostic, bordering to Atheism. But I continue to practice the religion my parents brought me up in and I don't take kindly to so-called objective criticisms by people who read bible verses at the high school level and pronounce anything contrary as demonic or pagan.

[Mangetout]

It reminds me of MBA class and all this talk about competitive market positioning. There's nothing wrong with saying you're the true church of Christ or God but saying flat out that other churches are pagan or, at the least, not of God or Jesus is, I think, un-Christian.

I agree it's shitty, but what do you really expect them to do? "This thing is really important, and I've got the truth in my possession, but hey, so has everybody else!"

[the_diego]

Here in my country at least, they can stop posting online cartoons of demonic popes and bishops. They're also mis-informed about stolen blessed sacraments. A church doesn't automatically close down if consecrated matter is stolen. The whole parish simply goes into prolonged penance.

[Mangetout]

Some detail might have helped. I haven't a clue what incidents you're referring to.

[clairobscur]

Here in my country at least, they can stop posting online cartoons of demonic popes and bishops. They're also mis-informed about stolen blessed sacraments. A church doesn't automatically close down if consecrated matter is stolen. The whole parish simply goes into prolonged penance.

What? Can you elaborate?

[kanicbird]

To me all churches and religious structures are somewhat demonic, it is a mix of God and Satan that is allowed to exist for a time till God's children realize this get up and leave.

I know you said you didn't' want a GD, but that was just a background of my reply to your pitting, which is Satan operates at that church what else would you expect?

[DrFidelius]

Here in my country at least, they can stop posting online cartoons of demonic popes and bishops. They're also mis-informed about stolen blessed sacraments. A church doesn't automatically close down if consecrated matter is stolen. The whole parish simply goes into prolonged penance.

What country is that? Do you have links to any news stories about this plague of thefts? The rightness of others' beliefs are not for us to judge, but criminal actions must be prosecuted.

[John Mace]

To me all churches and religious structures are somewhat demonic, it is a mix of God and Satan that is allowed to exist for a time till God's children realize this get up and leave.

I know you said you didn't' want a GD, but that was just a background of my reply to your pitting, which is Satan operates at that church what else would you expect?

Well, there you have it!

[Guinastasia]

To me all churches and religious structures are somewhat demonic, it is a mix of God and Satan that is allowed to exist for a time till God's children realize this get up and leave.


What the fucking fuck?

[Ludovic]

DNFT Lunatic.

[Typo Negative]

It reminds me of MBA class and all this talk about competitive market positioning. There's nothing wrong with saying you're the true church of Christ or God but saying flat out that other churches are pagan or, at the least, not of God or Jesus is, I think, un-Christian.
That sounds like witch talk to me!

[buckgully]

The title of this thread makes me think "predatory churches". That leads me to the mental picture of a Tyrannosaurus Rex wearing a pope hat and carrying a papal staff in his otherwise useless forearms running around eating smaller, plant-eating churches.

Just wanted to share that image, because it's too awesome to keep in my own head.

ETA: Egad!: http://www.flickr.com/photos/monado/6082134010/

[Balance]

In my experience, churches reproduce by fission, driven by internal strife. Two cliques in the congregation decide they can't stand each other, and force everyone else to take sides. They snipe and feud for a while, then pick some petty point of doctrine to disagree over; they make this point the deciding factor as to whether or not the other side counts as Christian. Whichever side has less power--because they're smaller, have less control over the purse strings, or have less pull with the priest/minister/whatever--gets pushed out and forms another church down the road. (Regrettably, this does not generally involve blackjack and hookers.)

They've already painted the other group as unbelievers in order to rationalize the breakup; this attitude gets reinforced over time, then passed along as tradition. Of course they're going to malign each other.

[Snarky_Kong]

What the fucking fuck?

You've been around here long enough to know that kanicbird is fucking loony tunes. Why so surprised?

[Rhythmdvl]

I agree it's shitty, but what do you really expect them to do? "This thing is really important, and I've got the truth in my possession, but hey, so has everybody else!"

Each church as its own 'truth'. The job of other churches is to sneak into the other religion's sanctuaries, steal the truth, and bring it back to their own inner sanctum. If the church is caught doing that, the truth goes back to the original alter and the missionaries trying to get the truth are 'out' for a set period. If either church successfully brings the other's truth back to their home base, they are declared the winner. Tribes are then broken up and the selection process starts all over again.

[Lobohan]

To me all churches and religious structures are somewhat demonic, it is a mix of God and Satan that is allowed to exist for a time till God's children realize this get up and leave.

I know you said you didn't' want a GD, but that was just a background of my reply to your pitting, which is Satan operates at that church what else would you expect?Or, conversely, you might be a crazy person.

[campp]

DNFT Lunatic.

What does this acronym mean? :confused:

[Eyebrows 0f Doom]

What does this acronym mean? :confused:

Do not feed the lunatic.

[Mangetout]

Each church as its own 'truth'. The job of other churches is to sneak into the other religion's sanctuaries, steal the truth, and bring it back to their own inner sanctum. If the church is caught doing that, the truth goes back to the original alter and the missionaries trying to get the truth are 'out' for a set period. If either church successfully brings the other's truth back to their home base, they are declared the winner. Tribes are then broken up and the selection process starts all over again.

Yeah, but it's all really about the sponsorship, and extended penance.

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

The title of this thread makes me think "predatory churches". That leads me to the mental picture of a Tyrannosaurus Rex wearing a pope hat and carrying a papal staff in his otherwise useless forearms running around eating smaller, plant-eating churches.

Just wanted to share that image, because it's too awesome to keep in my own head.

ETA: Egad!: http://www.flickr.com/photos/monado/6082134010/

Rival Pope-rexes! Run for your lives! (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15084452#post15084452)

[j666]

But any organized social structure eventually starts attacking others, usually for power of some sort. Why should you expect churches to be any different?

You've been around here long enough to know that kanicbird is fucking loony tunes. Why so surprised?Or, conversely, you might be a crazy person.Or could believe that religion is one thing, organized "churches" are another, and that the latter brings out the worst in people.

[Ludovic]

Or could believe that religion is one thing, organized "churches" are another, and that the latter brings out the worst in people.Could. But that's not mutually exclusive with the other possibilities, which I ensure you are also in effect.

[Nametag]

In my experience, churches reproduce by fission, driven by internal strife. Two cliques in the congregation decide they can't stand each other, and force everyone else to take sides. They snipe and feud for a while, then pick some petty point of doctrine to disagree over; they make this point the deciding factor as to whether or not the other side counts as Christian. Whichever side has less power--because they're smaller, have less control over the purse strings, or have less pull with the priest/minister/whatever--gets pushed out and forms another church down the road. (Regrettably, this does not generally involve blackjack and hookers.)

They've already painted the other group as unbelievers in order to rationalize the breakup; this attitude gets reinforced over time, then passed along as tradition. Of course they're going to malign each other.
Splitter!

[the_diego]

What country is that? Do you have links to any news stories about this plague of thefts? The rightness of others' beliefs are not for us to judge, but criminal actions must be prosecuted.
Philippines, my good man. The population is roughly 80% Roman Catholic, 15% Mohammedan, and maybe 5% non-Catholic Christian denominations. The 5% is the most volatile in terms of growth and conversion rate. We all know the RCC is thinning out in many parts of the world (though poor Catholic countries still record high population growth.)

Regarding theft of the Blessed Sacrament, it has happened often enough. The last case was hyped up because it was a major parish in the national capital region, situated along a highway where one also finds the headquarters of a non-Catholic Christian church. I of course can't say anything other than repeat accusations made by some Catholics. But one steals consecrated substances for no reason other than to humiliate a parish and maybe force its closure. Give me time to dig up all recorded cases of theft.

[the_diego]

addendum:

The news did not make clear whether or not the stolen monstrance in the major parish contained consecrated substances. But the monstrance was in itself a valuable relic, and even the Vatican has issued a comment regarding its theft.

[kaylasdad99]

People still say "Mohammaden"?

Also, just for clarity's sake: is it the denominations in the 5% that you're pitting (apparently for theft of consecrated substances, by which I presume you mean hosts)?

Or are some Catholic churches stealing from other Catholic churches?

[Guinastasia]

But any organized social structure eventually starts attacking others, usually for power of some sort. Why should you expect churches to be any different?

Or could believe that religion is one thing, organized "churches" are another, and that the latter brings out the worst in people.

You're not that familiar with Kanicbird, are you?

[dropzone]

But one steals consecrated substances for no reason other than to humiliate a parish and maybe force its closure.
That sounds like witch talk to me!No, it sounds like somebody covering up the actions of witches! Who else has perverse uses for consecrated objects? :dubious:
The news did not make clear whether or not the stolen monstrance in the major parish contained consecrated substances. But the monstrance was in itself a valuable relic, and even the Vatican has issued a comment regarding its theft.A large object made of solid gold? That could be worth stealing all on its own.

(researching)

No, it's only gold plated, (http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/news/view/20100614-275506/Sacred-vessel-stolen-from-church-in-Guadalupe) like a cheap necklace from WalMart. Not worth stealing at all. I'm back to the witch theory. They do have witches in the Philippines, don't they?

[the_diego]

People still say "Mohammaden"?
I'm trying to live my entire life without ever becoming PL.

Also, just for clarity's sake: is it the denominations in the 5% that you're pitting (apparently for theft of consecrated substances, by which I presume you mean hosts)?

Or are some Catholic churches stealing from other Catholic churches?
No, not just the 5%, and it's not just about the theft(s). Catholic intra-church thieving? Why not? Not entirely impossible. Just not plausible.

[the_diego]

No, it's only gold plated, (http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/news/view/20100614-275506/Sacred-vessel-stolen-from-church-in-Guadalupe) like a cheap necklace from WalMart. Not worth stealing at all. I'm back to the witch theory. They do have witches in the Philippines, don't they?
I don't think it's the one from Guadalupe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVaC8zq5dqM

There are supposed witches in the Philippines. Most legends center around a small island sub-province in the south. What's known is that some of the folks there have a tradition of making potions, balms and other stuff. A lot of quack doctors and faith healers come form that place. However, later generations lost their courage and dignity and studied western medicine instead.

[dropzone]

I don't think it's the one from Guadalupe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVaC8zq5dqMYep, plated.
However, later generations lost their courage and dignity and studied western medicine instead.Or wanted to actually cure people. And be paid in cash instead of livestock. ;)

I still kinda wish the US had given the Philippines the option of statehood, even though my Spanish is lousy and the likelihood that I could learn Tagalog fades with each passing year. I'm still holding out for Cuba and have added Guyana to my wish list, imperial SOB that I am.

[the_diego]

I'm sure that's what a lot of guys here would want that. And timing's about right now. If done pre-war, there would have been some snarking about it, what with close to 1.0 million Filipinos killed during the American campaign to wipe out Aguinaldo's forces.

But swerving back to the topic, I still think it's a marketing game all-in-all. That in itself if not pittable but claiming you're the Church of God because that's what you call yourself, and that's how the Bible calls it, makes me want to become a Soviet.

[kaylasdad99]

PL?

[Guinastasia]

I'm trying to live my entire life without ever becoming PL.


PL -- is that like a new way of saying "PC" or something?

[the_diego]

Politically correct, yes that's the term. :D

[Darth Panda]

You are all going to hell.


When you see the Devil, tell him I'm a-coming.

[kaylasdad99]

People still say "Mohammaden"?

I'm trying to live my entire life without ever becoming PL.

PL?

PL -- is that like a new way of saying "PC" or something?

Politically correct, yes that's the term. :D
Oh. Well, thanks for the clarification. :dubious:

:rolleyes:

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

Adding another "Huh?" here.

Exactly how are you defining politically correct, anyway?

[kaylasdad99]

Evidently, if calling Muslims "Mohammadens" was good enough for his forbears, it's damn well good enough for him, and he's not going to knuckle under to the liberal, PC demand that he start referring to adherents of Islam the way they refer to themselves.

[DrFidelius]

What? Mussulman's too hoity-toity for you?

[the_diego]

Evidently, if calling Muslims "Mohammadens" was good enough for his forbears, it's damn well good enough for him, and he's not going to knuckle under to the liberal, PC demand that he start referring to adherents of Islam the way they refer to themselves.
If your PC program is meant to accommodate wimps who want the whole world to call them what they want, then I'm jealous of my forebears.

It's "Mohammedans" who follow "Mohammedanism."

[gamerunknown]

Oh sorry. Borrowed the host for black mass, it's got an integral role. Requires a ginger too. It's gotten a bit wet - no time to explain (actually, so has the ginger). Would you like it back?

[the_diego]

Oh sorry. Borrowed the host for black mass, it's got an integral role. Requires a ginger too. It's gotten a bit wet - no time to explain (actually, so has the ginger). Would you like it back?
You'll convert dozens of Catholics with that news. Way to go. :o

[BrainGlutton]

It reminds me of MBA class and all this talk about competitive market positioning. There's nothing wrong with saying you're the true church of Christ or God but saying flat out that other churches are pagan or, at the least, not of God or Jesus is, I think, un-Christian.

Actually, it's ur-Christian. In first two or three centuries of the Christian Era, what you're describing was all over the Roman Empire.

[BigT]

Yes, it's typical kanicbird, and as typical kanicbird, it makes sense if you (1) think about it in fundamentalist theology terms* and (2) don't assume he's spouting nonsense.

All he said was that no church is 100% right, that all of them have a mixture of good (God) and evil (Satan). And that, when Christians realize this, that's when things will get better.

*It isn't fundie theology, but he does use the same terms. Well, that and a few New Agey ones. It's just typical salad plate religion, with an emphasis on Christianity.

[BrainGlutton]

The title of this thread makes me think "predatory churches". That leads me to the mental picture of a Tyrannosaurus Rex wearing a pope hat and carrying a papal staff in his otherwise useless forearms running around eating smaller, plant-eating churches.

Just wanted to share that image, because it's too awesome to keep in my own head.

ETA: Egad!: http://www.flickr.com/photos/monado/6082134010/

:confused: That can't be right! The Pope is a primate!

[BrainGlutton]

Also, just for clarity's sake: is it the denominations in the 5% that you're pitting (apparently for theft of consecrated substances, by which I presume you mean hosts)?

Well, certain substances of a consecrated nature. On the premises. To be removed for clinical tests.

[BrainGlutton]

No, it's only gold plated, (http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/news/view/20100614-275506/Sacred-vessel-stolen-from-church-in-Guadalupe) like a cheap necklace from WalMart. Not worth stealing at all.

But it's worth a movie! Godzilla vs. the Gold-Plated Monstrance!

[kanicbird]

Yes, it's typical kanicbird, and as typical kanicbird, it makes sense if you (1) think about it in fundamentalist theology terms* and (2) don't assume he's spouting nonsense.

All he said was that no church is 100% right, that all of them have a mixture of good (God) and evil (Satan). And that, when Christians realize this, that's when things will get better.

*It isn't fundie theology, but he does use the same terms. Well, that and a few New Agey ones. It's just typical salad plate religion, with an emphasis on Christianity.

Wow that is pretty cool :)

[Steken]

There's nothing wrong with saying you're the true church of Christ or God but saying flat out that other churches are pagan or, at the least, not of God or Jesus is, I think, un-Christian.

I disagree.

Practically all Christian groups throughout history have considered it extremely important to separate what they consider "true" Christians from "false" Christians, and to crack down on heretics, pagans, "wolves in sheep's clothing" and the like.

Scholars like Wouter Hanegraaff and Jan Assmann have written a great deal about this. I can recommend some books or .pdf's, if you'd like.

[the_diego]

I disagree.

Practically all Christian groups throughout history have considered it extremely important to separate what they consider "true" Christians from "false" Christians, and to crack down on heretics, pagans, "wolves in sheep's clothing" and the like.

Scholars like Wouter Hanegraaff and Jan Assmann have written a great deal about this. I can recommend some books or .pdf's, if you'd like.
If this was 2,000 years ago, I might agree. But today wherein some people see religion as "only religion" it should lessen on either side, don't you think?

[DrFidelius]

You'll convert dozens of Catholics with that news. Way to go. :o

The Satanists I knew were more precise with their adherence to Catholic liturgical forms than any practicing Catholic I know. They seemed to like the ritual, even while actively inverting / subverting it.

I heven't seen any of them in years. I wonder how many have outgrown that whole "Look how naughty we are with our Black Robes and Sex" thing.

[the_diego]

^
I'd like to believe you but we have no knowledge of such a group here. They're bound to leak out their activities.

[Steken]

If this was 2,000 years ago, I might agree. But today wherein some people see religion as "only religion" it should lessen on either side, don't you think?

No, I don't, actually.

Sure, some people see religion as "only religion" -- i.e., they don't care either way -- but there are still plenty of religious people out there who hold on to the idea that there are true Gods and false Gods, true Christians and false Christians, etc.

For them, it's practically a religious duty to expose the false Christians wherever they can find them -- even if it's in that other church two blocks over. From their point of view, it makes perfect sense: They are not only trying to protect their own flock from falling in error, but they are even doing the heretics a favor by pointing out the error of their ways.

This is nothing new, it's certainly not exclusively a Filipino thing, and I absolutely do not agree that it's "un-Christian", as you put it in the OP.

^
I'd like to believe you but we have no knowledge of such a group here.

Are you sure? (http://dyingmusic.com/shop/images/Deiphago%20-%20Filipino%20Antichrist.JPG) ;)

[BrainGlutton]

The Satanists I knew were more precise with their adherence to Catholic liturgical forms than any practicing Catholic I know. They seemed to like the ritual, even while actively inverting / subverting it.

I heven't seen any of them in years. I wonder how many have outgrown that whole "Look how naughty we are with our Black Robes and Sex" thing.

:confused: Black Mass?! Does anybody actually do that?! Doesn't sound like LaVeyan Satanism at all. (Smite the heretics!)

[DrFidelius]

:confused: Black Mass?! Does anybody actually do that?! Doesn't sound like LaVeyan Satanism at all. (Smite the heretics!)

No idea. I have a very bad habit of lying on the Internet, and will never allow facts to get in the way of a story, joke, or the twitting of a fool.

[kaylasdad99]

If your PC program is meant to accommodate wimps who want the whole world to call them what they want, then I'm jealous of my forebears.

It's "Mohammedans" who follow "Mohammedanism."Oh.

What do you call followers of Islam, then?

[dropzone]

Kids, what's PC here is normal and perfectly polite in other cultures, and "Mohammedan" isn't all that un-PC here. It's archaic, more "Negro" than "nigger," so cut the guy some slack.

[the_diego]

No, I don't, actually.

Sure, some people see religion as "only religion" -- i.e., they don't care either way -- but there are still plenty of religious people out there who hold on to the idea that there are true Gods and false Gods, true Christians and false Christians, etc.

For them, it's practically a religious duty to expose the false Christians wherever they can find them -- even if it's in that other church two blocks over. From their point of view, it makes perfect sense: They are not only trying to protect their own flock from falling in error, but they are even doing the heretics a favor by pointing out the error of their ways.

This is nothing new, it's certainly not exclusively a Filipino thing, and I absolutely do not agree that it's "un-Christian", as you put it in the OP.

I disagree too. How old is the Bible passage concerning false gods and false Christians? If you're going to stay Bible-based, then we should stop arguing right here. In that case everything that came after those passages don't matter. What about free will and introspection? What about pacifism and tolerance? What about non-sectarian worship?

[Steken]

How old is the Bible passage concerning false gods and false Christians?

From a Christian standpoint, it doesn't matter. If it was true then, it's true now.

If you're going to stay Bible-based, then we should stop arguing right here.

Look, I'm just trying to show to you that the kind of thing you describe in the OP -- different churches bickering with one another over who's "true" and who's "false" -- isn't "un-Christian" at all. It's not only mandated in the Bible, but furthermore, it's been going on throughout all of the history of Christianity. It's not just a text passage in an old book. It's 2000 years of history.

In that case everything that came after those passages don't matter. What about free will and introspection? What about pacifism and tolerance? What about non-sectarian worship?

I'm all for it myself, if that's what you're asking. But I also understand why a lot of Christians aren't.

[the_diego]

^
Gotcha! As you can see, I have a bit of a problem with Bible-based worship. Question to you: how, as a Christian (assuming you are), do you feel about this pit? Do you think the problem is just me?

[Steken]

^
Gotcha! As you can see, I have a bit of a problem with Bible-based worship. Question to you: how, as a Christian (assuming you are), do you feel about this pit? Do you think the problem is just me?

Whoa whoa whoa, I am not a Christian. Sorry if I gave you that impression. ;)

[FriarTed]

:confused: Black Mass?! Does anybody actually do that?! Doesn't sound like LaVeyan Satanism at all. (Smite the heretics!)

Read LaVey's The Satanic Rituals. It's rite *hee hee* in there!

[kaylasdad99]

Kids, what's PC here is normal and perfectly polite in other cultures, and "Mohammedan" isn't all that un-PC here. It's archaic, more "Negro" than "nigger," so cut the guy some slack.Well, that was pretty much the point of my questioning his use of it (that it's archaic, and not common). He made the choice to frame it as a conscious decision for the sake of avoiding being PL (whatever that stands for).

[Steken]

Read LaVey's The Satanic Rituals. It's rite *hee hee* in there!

Right, but I don't think the Church of Satan practices Black Masses anymore.

And eh, Black Masses are sooooo 1890's, anyway.

[Darth Panda]

The title of this thread makes me think "predatory churches". That leads me to the mental picture of a Tyrannosaurus Rex wearing a pope hat and carrying a papal staff in his otherwise useless forearms running around eating smaller, plant-eating churches.

Just wanted to share that image, because it's too awesome to keep in my own head.

ETA: Egad!: http://www.flickr.com/photos/monado/6082134010/

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57524/en.futurama/images/6/6b/SpacePope.png