Toynbee Ideas?

[Alias]

While in New York awhile back, I became aware of these strange plaques embedded in the asphalt of certain vusy intersections. They read "Toynbee ideas in Kubrick's 2001 Resurrect dead on Planet Jupiter". Cryptic, isn't it? Is this the result of some weird cult? Is it mass paranoia? What the heck is it?!?

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"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" -Albert Einstein

[andros]

Hell if I know. But I found this:
http://www.temple.edu/~woneill/sidewalk.html

They don't know either, but they've done some good documentation.

-andros-

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"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

[Montfort]

There's one of these signs in the sidewalks of downtown DC, too. I can't recall where, but I think it's along K Street, west of the Farragut North metro stop. I think. I haven't seen it in a few years, but I imagine it's still there.

Any other DC locals care to help me remember where it is?

[aseymayo]

Looks like art to me.

The artist is probably from the Tyler School of Art at Temple. Someone in Philly should investigate the address given at the Chile location. (see chart at andros's link).

What does it mean? I don't know if it really means something or it is just pretending to. My partner, a Mr. A/V Club, suggests it might have been a remark overheard on the street. The crazy people who talk to themselves come up with some pretty interesting theories.

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Probably not related, but Bradbury had a short story "The Toynbee Convector," which was about time travel.

[Nickrz]

Wow. A real mystery, here on the Straight Dope MB?
This one deserves Cecil's attention, imho..

[Montfort]

Nickrz used to be a moderator, right? Did he pass this one along to Unca Cecil?

I'd been off the board for a while now, but I'm back, not that anyone remembers me. But, I'm working in downtown DC now and I pass these Toynbee/Kubrick signs everyday. It's really starting to make me wonder what they are.

A new monolith, maybe? :)

[jayron 32]

Creepy. I'll have to keep my eye open for one. I must say, however, that I would LOVE for Unca Cece to do an article on this one. Hell, he did one on Sperm Trees, and this is FAR more intriguing, IMHO. I've never seen one of these signs around Chicago, but we're a little behind the times here... Is there any way to put this idea on the top of cecil's inbox? I'm sure he would find it interesting.

[John Bredin]

There are some of these in Chicago. There's a worn-down one around the corner from my office, in Adams just east of Wells. I recall seeing another in Jackson Blvd. just west of Michigan Avenue.

[Olentzero]

Gotta check in with this one. I've seen 'em both in DC (14th and k NW - walk past it almost every day), which is just a plain white one with the letters cut out, and in Chicago, somewhere in the Loop (Lake Shore Drive, near Roosevelt U, IIRC) - this one was much more ornate, with some extra writing, a pair of women's legs and something else I couldn't identify. All in color. I seem to remember the style of writing in both plaques did not vary in the least, suggesting to me some sort of template was used, or several templates cut and distributed.

I've often wondered what the hell it was all about, and they look like they've been there for years.

[Gunslinger]

Sounds like the work of [insert your favorite conspiracy theory here] to me.

[Koffing]

There's actually one in Pittsburgh, too. IIRC, it's on the corner of Smithfield and 6th Downtown.

[TubaDiva]

Let me kick this over to Cecil's inbox.

Now, that's no guarantee that something will happen . . .but you never can tell.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
Who used to see these same things in the Village . . . and wondered what the hell it was about.

[bibliophage]

The Baltimore Sun (http://www.tiagoteixeira.com.br/toynbee/baltimoresun.htm) had an article on the subject in 1994. It seems obvious they have something to do with Stanley Kubrick's classic movie, "2001: A Space Odyssey," and the teachings of the late British historian, Arnold Toynbee. In some of his writings, Toynbee implied some sort of religious regeneration. The movie -- starring HAL the computer and
that funky monolith -- implies something about regeneration on Jupiter.These Toynbee signs are found in Buenos Aires (in English) and Rio de Janeiro (in ungrammatical Portuguese), according to http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3790/geobook.html

[AmyG]

Man!

I wasn't sure what people were talking about when they were referring to these things, but then I clicked on the link and realized that I, too, have seen them in DC (though I can't recall where). I always assumed, having never been well-versed in Toynbee or Kubrick's Clarke adaptations, that they were the work of one of the many random nuts that populate downtown DC. Bill Clinton's watching you through your TV set? LaRouche is the country's savior? OK, Toynbee's ideas could be resurrecting the dead on Jupiter, too. There again, most of the other random nuts I used to see in DC didn't seem likely to travel enough to bring their messages along the northeastern seaboard, let alone South America.

I do recall that there was some sort of regeneration on Jupiter or one of its moons in Arthur C. Clarke's 2010 book, but having read it over a decade ago, and having never seen the film adaptation, I'm afraid I can't throw any more illumination onto the subject.

--Amy

[Montfort]

Originally posted by TubaDiva
Let me kick this over to Cecil's inbox.

Now, that's no guarantee that something will happen . . .but you never can tell.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
Who used to see these same things in the Village . . . and wondered what the hell it was about.
I recently discovered another one of these signs right outisde my office (15th and Eye St. in DC) and it's going to bug me until Cecil gets the Straight Dope on the origin.

I'm not half as concerned about the meaning as I am the source.

[Derleth]

I think its a small, geographically diverse group of art students or something along those lines. A semi-organized group with members willing to travel and access to some rather specialized materials available in major cities could easily pull off something like this. The fact that the Portuguese was ungrammatical convinces me that they may well be a group of Americans with translation programs/booklets and plenty of plane tickets (all the cities to far mentioned are very close to major airports). Maybe it's a publicity stunt of some kind. More likely it's just a group of weirdos out to cause people to go 'What?'. With the anonymity inheirent in the internet (planning and organization, perhaps material purchasing and plane/motel bookings) and major airports and highways (doubtless the prime modes of transport) we may never know.

[Montfort]

Originally posted by Derleth
I think its a small, geographically diverse group of art students or something along those lines. A semi-organized group with members willing to travel and access to some rather specialized materials available in major cities could easily pull off something like this. The fact that the Portuguese was ungrammatical convinces me that they may well be a group of Americans with translation programs/booklets and plenty of plane tickets (all the cities to far mentioned are very close to major airports). Maybe it's a publicity stunt of some kind. More likely it's just a group of weirdos out to cause people to go 'What?'. With the anonymity inheirent in the internet (planning and organization, perhaps material purchasing and plane/motel bookings) and major airports and highways (doubtless the prime modes of transport) we may never know.
And, if figuring this out isn't Unca Cece's job, I don't know what is.

[aseymayo]

It's funny, but I just thought of these again the other day; I've never seen one, but I do find them fascinating.

Andros's link is to a page of sightings. Next to the one for Santiago Chile it says:

"Spotted by Christian Soto who notes that it contains an address:
Toynbee A.
2624 S. 7th
Philadelphia, PA.
19148-4610
USA"

I looked up the address in Streets(TM) and it's a real address on the South side. Do we have any Philly Dopers who could check out this address and report back? (A NY Doper would do in a pinch, as long as we don't have to kick in for train fare.)

It still looks like art to me - sort of urban crop circles.

[Montfort]

I'm in Maryland, aseymayo, and I go to Philly at least once a month (it's just two hours from here). If I get a chance next time I'm there -- or a Philly doper can't make it first -- I'll try to check it out.

[Wendell Wagner]

Look at the list of cities in which these signs are found which is given in the website mentioned in the second post (the one by andros) above. The only small cities are Aberdeen and Edgewood in Maryland (north of Baltimore). I conjecture that whoever created these signs lives near there (or possibly in Philadelphia or its southern suburbs). This is within easy driving distance of the signs in Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, and Atlantic City (as well as Aberdeen and Edgewood). It's within reasonable driving distance of New York, Pittsburgh, Boston, and possibly Cleveland. Only Indianapolis is a solid day's drive away. Of course, that still leaves the question of why there are signs in Santiago, Buenos Aires, and Rio de Janeiro. If it wasn't for the signs in South America, I would say that it's clearly the work of some nutcase rather than some wierd performance art by art students. I would think that art students would come up with something cleverer and would be able to do more of these signs (and in more cities). Maybe it's some nutcase who took a trip to South America.

[aseymayo]

Cool, Montfort, but be careful. The Toynbee signs have been around for years, so it's possible whomever the address referred to has long since moved on.

The "Toynbee A." could be a reference to Arnold Toynbee, or it could be a real person. While you're there, you could peek in the Philly phone book in case there's an Angela Toynbee - owner of Toynbee's Custom Street Paint.

[Montfort]

aseymayo: Well, I wasn't planning on knocking on any doors and saying "Hey, are you the Kubrick/Toynbee guy?"

I just checked whitepages.com and there's no A. Toynbee in Philadelphia, nor in any other state. The fact that the address on one of the signs has a Zip+4 zip code leads me to think that it was somewhat recently made (last 10 years or so?) I first saw the ones in downtown DC in 1995 or so, but they sure didn't look new then, so...?

Wendell Wagner: Your theory sounds good to me about a Lone Signmaker.

(Can you tell I'm hoping I get to help Unca Cece in his quest to solve this mystery? :cool: )

[light strand]

Another interesting link on the subject

http://astro.temple.edu/~woneill/toynbee.html

[Homer]

Montfort, after reading links and doing some searching, this seems alot like the "Andre the Giant has a posse" thing. In fact, I'm thinking of making a few plaques myself, and applying them in front of Crowne Center, at 11th and Grand, places like that. Sounds like fun, like Urban Guerillaing.

--Tim

[Alias]

Andre the Giant had a posse? Please enlighten me.

[samclem]

At least we can answer the Andre the Giant Question Andre (http://www2.msstate.edu/~cbh8/andre.html)

[Alias]

It gets better.

http://www.andrethegiant.com

[Homer]

Yeah I already knew all about the Andre thing. It really kicks ass, eh? ;)

From a webpage, about the Toynbee thing.

The highlight of my search for answers to this mystery occured one Sunday night of this previous winter. I had gone to my local convenience store for a snack around 4:00 A.M., noticing nothing unusual. On my way home I noticed something unusual in the street. Upon closer inspection, I discovered it to be a "Toynbee Idea" tile - freshly placed and only minutes old. Of course I was beside myself with exitement and I could now see exactly how, and of what materials these tiles are made. [snip] The tiles are just that - tiles....although not the standard vinyl floor tile, as I had suspected. The letters are cut out of a material with, I assume, a higher rubber content than a standard floor tile. The inlay letters seemed to made from a less maleable substance, and in this case were red and yellow. The tile is secured to the street by intricately folded and layered tar paper, glued together. A layer of raw tar seemed to lie beneath the whole tile, anchoring it. The weight of cars, as they run over the tile, forces the layers of tar paper to impregnate the spaces in the cracks of the letters. As time passes, and cars as well as the elements do their job, the tile becomes imbedded into the street - totally unmovable since the rubber forms a tight bond with the asphalt. Of course the tar paper dissapears in a few days but the tar itself remains, working to secure the message into the street.

So this appears to be how they are made and applied. He goes on to say

Well, I went to that address [in Philly] and knocked on the door, but no luck. The current occupants bought the house about a year and a half ago and had no idea who may have lived there previously.

So the address is apparently a dead end, unless you wanna look at previous renters or deed transfers, I guess.

He continues on about his experience in Philly:

However - in this same south philly neighborhood I saw and photographed many "experimental" tiles. These looked
to e to be "tests" conducted by the tile maker in an attempt to perfect a method. Some even had inlays of metal or glass! The messages mostly consisted of random letters - XOC>>,etc. These are around the area of 8th. & Shunk St. In Philly. [snip] Many of the Philly tiles I photographed have since been tarred over or destroyed - of particular interest is a panel of four tiles formerly on 16th. & Chestnut in Philly. They contain PARAGRAPHS of paranoid rant centering around the Philadelphia Inquirerer and John Knight. My photos are all color close-ups so that every detail and nuance is visible. I photographed the tile on Arch street as i peeled it halfway up, to give a visual record of how it is placed. At any rate, I have gone on long enough, and if you have had the attention span to read this, God bless you. I will not take up more of your time with my own theories on what the message may mean.

Minor spelling corrections made throughout, by myself.

This is taken from here (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3790/geobook.html), and was originally written by Justin K. (mailto:eulogycontact@hotmail.com)

Hope you enjoy.

--Tim

[Homer]

Okay, more stuff from another here (http://www.tiagoteixeira.com.br/toynbee/baltimoresun.htm) says that But just recently, a fresh Toynbee sign appeared at the intersection of Calvert and Redwood streets. Instead of the usual white lettering, this marker is cast boldly in blue and orange. And to further taunt us, there's additional scribbling:

You Must Make + Clue Tile!! You!! As Media U.S.S.R.

Odd. Perhaps he's telling people to make and spread tiles?

This site (http://www.cog.jhu.edu/grad-students/davidson/toynbee.html) has a list of all the known sites of the tiles, if you'd like to take a look. I think I'll email him about the address and how they're made (he asks for the info on his site).

Here's a picture of the plaques (http://www.singmind.com/singleminded/199910/toynb.jpg).

More later. Gotta go. Feds are after me.

--Tim

[Homer]

Wrote a long ass post. Netscape crashed. Attempt to reconstruct.

Anyway, these plaques appear to believe that Jupiter is a dead planet, and can be resurrected using Toynbee's ideas, as shown in "A Space Odyssey."

They also contain many, many rantings about someone being out to get "me," "me" being the creator of the plaques.

Another odd twist is that the main theme to "A Space Odyssey" is a song called "Thus Spoke Zarathustra," Zarathustra being an alternate translation of the name Zoroaster. Toynbee was a religious fanatic, and railed against the idea of monotheism, of which Zoroaster is credited as being an originator of.

Some information gleamed from here (http://www.tiagoteixeira.com.br/toynbee/backgroundresearch.htm)


This (http://babel.altavista.com/translate.dyn?lp=pt_en&doit=done&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tiagoteixeira.com.br%2Ftoynbee%2Flocalizacao.htm) should translate, through Babelfish (From Portugese) some of the other rantings found on Toynbee boards. For some reason, it inserts a space in the address. Click the link, go to your address bar, delete the space between b and r in the address (at .com.br) and hit enter, then hit translate.

Some boards are from the tile I talked about previously, apparently some are from the paint used to mark roads, and others are pressed into the asphalt, and made of a hard plastic.

It appears that the boards are sufficiently similar to have been cut from a mold, stamped, or painstakingly cut, by hand, by the same person. I'm guessing they were stamped.

Some of the ranting is about a plot between Russian nationals, and American reporters, disguised as Mafioso…? Three plaques in Manhattan are known to contain the phrase "Murder every journalist I beg you."

These plaques, of which there are more than 120 documented (and probably dozens still unknown), appear soon after street resurfacing in most Baltimore intersections. Perhaps the best way to find out who (or what) does it is to find out when a street containing a plaque is to be resurfaced, then camp out, well hidden, waiting for a person to plant a new one. Catch and confront the person. Maybe they're just another rube playing the same game we are. Who knows?

The best lead so far is that these are inspired by David Mamet's play, Goldberg Street (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802151043/qid%3D957531134/sr%3D1-1/105-8420186-9999927), or possibly that Mamet knew of the plaques and incorporated them into his play.

While not directly related, I'd be a fool if I didn't think this page (http://www.brunel.ac.uk/research/virtsoc/GRpapers/dean.htm) didn't have anything to do with the plaques.

A few more sites on the matter (seeing as how woneill's no longer works) are here (http://nimbus.temple.edu/~woneill/sidewalk.html) is woneill's NEW site. This also includes an exhaustive list of the plaques, locations, and types, with many pictures and descriptions of the differences.

There appears to be a building named Toynbee Hall on Manhattan's lower east side (near his appendix, possibly. ;)).

Mortimer Toynbee is an X-person known as Toad. Seen in X-Men the movie, and many comics.

Some of the original plaques appear to be as old as 30 years!

I'll try to find out some more later.

--Tim