3 ways to declare someone dead

[Konrad]

A while ago a friend who is a fireman told me that unless you are certified medical proffessional you can only legally declare someone dead in 3 cases. One is decapitation, the other is rigor mortis. He didn't remember the third one.

Any ideas?

P.S. This is in Canada so it might not be a universal standard.

[metroshane]

wow, wierd question. why would a non-profession have to declare someone dead? who would he want to declare it to? what would happen if he tried?

[C K Dexter Haven]

Well, presumably if you're far enough past rigor mortis that there ain't nothin' left but a few bones and skull, that'd count?

[DrFidelius]

"He's dead, Jim."

That sounds iffy to me. Rigor mortis? How would a layman even recognize rigor mortis? I probably couldn't. I've never touched a dead body, and I imagine there are many people in my situation.

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Jacques Kilchoer
Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains.

[BobT]

I believe the original post refers to a person coming along the scene of an apparently dead body. A firefigher or a police officer isn't supposed to say, "Hmm, he looks dead, better call the coroner." He's supposed to call an ambulance or a doctor where someone with an MD goes and says "Yep, he's dead."
If I were in that position (almost dead or looking like I was dead), I'd want someone to doublecheck.

[ThufferinThuccotash]

I agree with Jacques; IIRC, rigor mortis is a transient phenomenon that exists for only a few hours. A corpse will return to its limp, flaccid state as decompostion continues.

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TT

"Believe those who seek the truth.
Doubt those who find it." --Andre Gide

[tracer]

3 ways to declare someone dead? Um, lessee...

"You're dead."

"YOU'RE DEAD!"

"Boy, are you ever dead."

Yep, that's 3 of 'em.

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Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

[Harmonious Discord]

Don't forget the "kiss of death" can be used to declare someone dead.

[RTA]

"Hoo boy!" he says,
"Now that's what I call really dead."


http://metalab.unc.edu/ipa/pinsky/impossible.html

Tell him he's Dan Quayle's Running mate.

Can't get deader than that!

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Attention C#3!The inside of your musty head is a exercise wheel;
in which two gerbils, Vanity and Credulity by
name, tussle fruitlessly over the walnut that
represents your banal & pointless existance.

[NanoByte]

I unprofessionally declare that rigor mortis has set in on this thread.

Ray

[BurnMeUp]

EMT's/Firemen/Paramedics/Cops can declare someone dead in the following circumstances:

*Decapitation
*Rigor Mortis
*Lividity - this is where a body without a heartbeat lays around too long and all the blood pools into the tissues they are lying on, it creates a dark purple/black color on all surcafes the body is resting on.
*Advanced states of Decomposition


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Just add water, it makes it's own sauce!

A non-professional can declare someone merely dead, but only a coroner can declare them most sincerely dead.

[WIGGUM]

"He's not dead, he's only mostly dead."

[DSYoungEsq]

Hell, even if a house drops on you, the coroner has to report you most sincerely dead. ;)

[tanstaafl]

wow, wierd question. why would a non-profession have to declare someone dead? who would he want to declare it to? what would happen if he tried?

I saw a discussion on this recently, either on here or on a.f.c-a, but can't find the thread right now. Anyway, it involves the order in which you apply medical/lifesaving measures to people at an accident site or whatever. Apparently there was a case in which an EMT team arrived at an accident site and found two victims; one nearly decapitated and the other still alive. They ignored the one and concentrated their efforts on the other.

The EMTs were sued by the family of the dead person for not rendering emergency aid (like CPR) to the decapitated body on the grounds that they were not qualified to make the decision as to if the person were dead or not. The guidelines were put in place so that rescue teams would not have to waste time on the "obviously" dead and could concentrate on those who still had a chance.

I don't remember what criteria they finally came up with. I'll look around some more and see if I can dig up the thread; it's got to be on Deja somewhere.

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"Drink your coffee! Remember, there are people sleeping in China."

Dennis Matheson --- dennis@mountaindiver.com
Hike, Dive, Ski, Climb --- www.mountaindiver.com (http://www.mountaindiver.com)

[Sam Stone]

You need Miracle Max to declare you mostly dead.

[Stoid]

How about burned to a crisp?
How about washing up on shore, bloated beyond recognition?
How about completely eviscerated? (I love that word)
How about if your heart is on your sleeve...literally?
How about if your brain is up your ass...literally?
How about i fyou still have your head on your body, but you only have half a body?

I can think of many more ways in which a person is unmistakably, unequivocally dead.

I just watched a show on Discovery about how in the old days people were completely paranoid about being buried alive, appaarantly with good cause since there were way too many stories of people "waking up" from being dead just as the casket was about to be lowered into the ground, or pert near. There were a number of coffins which had Rube Goldberg-ish contraptions designed to let the possibly undead signla that they were alive after they'd been put in the ground.

All very creepy if your'e asking me.

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*************
This is a non-smoking area. If we see you smoking, we will assume you are on fire and act accordingly.

Off topic reference: for more on the subject of Being Buried Alive , see : "A Cabinet Of Medical Curiousities" By Jan Bondeson
It covers this topic quite well.

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Attention C#3!The inside of your musty head is a exercise wheel;
in which two gerbils, Vanity and Credulity by
name, tussle fruitlessly over the walnut that
represents your banal & pointless existance.

[MrKnowItAll]

BurnMeUp, just wanted you to know that your sig line took on a whole new meaning for me after the last line of your post. Now I've got to go to the Mayo clinic for an appetite transplant. Thanks a lot...

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"It is impossible to experience one's own death objectively and still carry a tune." -- Woody Allen from Getting Even

[Rysdad]

MrKnowItAll: I saw the same thing: Cadaver Helper. bleah

[AWB]

What if someone is spending the year dead for tax purposes? :)

[KCB615]

BurnMeUp hit it pretty much on the head. Here's where I don't have to do CPR:

- Decapitation
- Pooling Lividity
- Complete transection of the trunk
- Gross decomposition (gross as in a lot, not disgusting). This includes adiopocere, the nice way of saying "floater."

We still have to do CPR for rigor mortice, I guess someone might be stiff before they're dead.


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Jeremy....

I can think of no more stirring symbol of man's humanity to man than a fire engine - Kurt Vonnegut

[The Ryan]

Konrad posted 10-13-1999 05:21 PM

A while ago a friend who is a fireman told me that unless you are certified medical proffessional you can only legally declare someone dead in 3 cases.

Tanstaafl posted 10-14-1999 11:40 AM

Anyway, it involves the order in which you apply medical/lifesaving measures to people at an accident site or whatever. Apparently there was a case in which an EMT team arrived at an accident site and found two victims; one nearly decapitated and the other still alive. They ignored the one and concentrated their efforts on the other.

(emphasis mine)

I'm confused. Aren't EMTs medical professionals?

[The Ryan]

As for the question of why it would matter whether someone can declare someone dead:
1. For a death certificate, there must be an official declaration of death (although I don't think that very many laypeople wouyld even think of filling out a death certificate)
2. When determining how long someone has been "officially dead," one would use the time at which they were "properly" declared dead.
3. If you testify in a trial that so-and-so was dead, and you're not qualified to say that, a laywer can object.

[Nickrz]

I think I might have been qualified to pronounce dead the guy who was hit by a freight train near my house last week. Or more succinctly, his leg and lower torso.

Does one need to make the pronouncement at the scene of the face/head, or will just any old body part do? Was it wrong for the paramedics to put the smaller debris into Target store shopping bags before dumping them into the official body bag? Boy, those guys were making some pronouncements, believe me.

[Diceman]

No shit, Nickrz?

As long as the leg and torso end up with the rest of the guy eventually, I don't see the problem with tossing them into another bag first.

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"I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms." -The Secret of Monkey Island

Regarding the questions about EMTs being medical professionals, and to what degree they can determine whether resuscitation is/is not appropriate.

Laws vary from state. EMTs licensed within a particular should be very familiar with their state's laws, since these are tested in their licensing exam.

(If you've read this thread this far, you've read worse, continue at your own risk)

In Texas, I was doing CPR on a highway worker hit by a car going too fast for a work zone. It was June, 105+, the guy was in his 60s, and not bleeding from where he used to have legs... and it was 20 minutes from when we started CPR until the EMT crew arrived. They called in the situation to the docs at their Emergency Room, and pronounced the guy dead on the scene.

In other words, the EMTs did not have the authority to pronounce the guy themselves, but had the medical expertise to relay information to the doc in the ER, who did have the authority to pronounce the guy dead.

As I was unlicensed in TX, I did not have the legal authority to pronounce him dead.



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Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html (http://members.aol.com/majormd/index.html)

[gary horaczek]

There is a book out called "May God Have Mercy On Your Soul" about executions in Chicago. The one interesting case was a murderer was hanged and declared dead. His body was claimed right away and using needles and hot water bottles proceded to revive him. A guard saw it and stopped the ambulance and the body was held for a hour so it could not be revived. There are many cases where someone hung themselves and were brought back to life. A judge noted that since he was declared dead he was a nonperson and could not be touched by the law, he could do whatever he wanted........................... "Inspector Clay's dead. Murdered.And somebody's responsible."-Police Lt. in "Plan 9 From Outer Space"

Dr. Sue, I'm sure that someone from TSD will want to make sure that we alert all readers that they should contact their own health care provider to determine whether they are in fact dead, and not rely on information received via messages on a web board. ;)

-Melin