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Osakadave
04-29-2001, 07:43 AM
While talking history with a friend last night, the following questions came up:
When and where was the last "classical" massed horse cavalry charge? Was it succesful? If not, when was the last succesful one?

Rayne Man
04-29-2001, 08:06 AM
I think the Polish Army carried out several cavalry charges against the invading German army in 1939.They were not a success.I also think the British army carried out some charges in WW1.One was in the last few minutes before the end of hostilities on the 11th.November 1918.Several men were killed because of this foolish gesture.

woolly
04-29-2001, 08:31 AM
I'm not sure what you'd class as "classical" but I'd put the claim for "the last successful cavalry charge" to be the Battle for Beersheba 31st October 1917. It was a bayonet charge by mounted infantry of the Australian 3rd & 9th Light Horse Regiments http://www.lighthorse.org.au/histbatt/beersheba.htm

Ringo
04-29-2001, 11:07 AM
While I ran into many a mention of Beersheba, it should be noted that Polish cavalry action against German infantry in 1939 was successful.

From The Legacy of the Horse (http://www.imh.org/imh/kyhpl6b.html#xtocid1228619):

When the German Panzer divisions crossed the Polish border in 1939, they confronted an adversary which symbolized the end of the mounted soldier - or so they thought. Pathetically, the Polish Cavalry attempted to stall the invasion by charging the German tanks on horseback. To say the least, the valiant Poles were quickly overrun. Four years later the cavalry had a final say. In the cold winter of 1943, on the steppes of the Ukraine, the German tanks were literally frozen in their tracks. Cossacks descended on the tanks, mounted on ponies which were descendants of the horses of the ancient Scythians, the first masters of cavalry.

The Cossacks swept over the frozen plain firing machine guns and throwing grenades into the German forces with deadly effect. The Cossacks fled on their swift horses before the astonished Germans had time to react.

That unfortunatley both lacks details and includes a reference to the Polish cavalry charging German tanks, something that another site, The Polish Campaign 1939 (http://www.quoteland.com/baronies/war/polish.html), describes as myth:

One misconception of the Polish campaign was the use of Polish cavalry against German panzers. This myth was originally started by Italian war correspondents and embellished by German propaganda. Only one action is known to have occurred between Polish lancers and German armored vehicles.
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Mastelarz commanded the two squadrons himself and soon found a German infantry battalion exposed. The lancers charged the unprepared infantry and in a few minutes had wiped out the Germans, with few casualties. As the two squadrons were reforming a couple of German armored cars armed with 20mm cannons drove onto the scene. The Polish cavalry being exposed began to gallop for cover, but they were too late the armored cars slaughtered the lancers, killing Mastelarz and most of his regiment. The evidence of this encounter was shown to Italian correspondents the next day and were told that the cavalry had charged panzers. The myth of Polish cavalry battling Germans panzers was born that day.

I found several other references describing Polish cavalry fighting panzers as myth.

Not a charge, just an interesting side note from the History of the 11th U.S.Cavalry (http://wildgun1.tripod.com/history.html) (whose last charge was against Poncho Villa's bandits):

At the end of World War II, the 11th patrolled the rugged German borders on horseback and became the "Last Combat Horse Cavalry in U.S. History."

And then I stumbled upon this tidbit from here (http://www.ukans.edu/~kansite/wwi-0799/msg00336.html):

I believe, without checking it, that the final horse-cavalry charge by a
Western Army was by a militia unit in Kenya during the Mau-Mau Rebellion in
1955 or so.

The same mailing list turned up this:

There was a successful, mostly, charge of an Indian Army cavalry squadron
against the Japanese in WW2 in the Burma theatre.

Well I found out nothing more about either of those, but the following turned up at LESSER KNOWN FACTS OF WW II (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/facts.html):

The last Cavalry charge in history took place on August 23, 1942 at Izbushensky on the River Don. The Italian Savoia Cavalry Regiment, commanded by Colonel Bettoni, and consisting of 600 mounted Italian troops, charged against 2,000 Soviet troops who had opened a breach between the German 6th.Army and the Italian Army. The Italian Lancers destroyed two Soviet Infantry armoured vehicles before being forced to withdraw with slight losses, about thirty-two casualties.

Mr. Miskatonic
04-29-2001, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by David Cronan
I think the Polish Army carried out several cavalry charges against the invading German army in 1939.They were not a success.I also think the British army carried out some charges in WW1.One was in the last few minutes before the end of hostilities on the 11th.November 1918.Several men were killed because of this foolish gesture.

The Poles, for the most part, really weren't charging. They had been encricled and it was a breakout action. Casualties were high but it was a success.

Cavalry was in use in WW2, especially on the Eastern front, but it was more for transport than for fighting.

Polycarp
04-29-2001, 03:01 PM
The Poles did have some cavalry regiments as WWII broke out -- but this was a sensible move against infantry in flat, open country, rather than simply preserving a foolish antiquated tradition. With very few exceptions (DeGaulle being one), very few army leaders in any country were prepared for what modern (sc. vintage 1940) tanks en masse could do at the time.

The "Polish cavalry charging German tanks" thing is something of an urban legend, but was founded on (a) apparently a couple of situations where a cavalry formation was surrounded -- I hadn't been aware of these, but someone noted them above, and (b) a disastrous but intelligently founded move by a cavalry commander resulting from faulty intelligence.

Background: in the early days of the Third Reich, the people being trained to run Panzers and such were placed in "jeeps" (technical misuse, but you get the idea -- open bodied off-road vehicles on an auto chassis) encased in tank-shaped plywood, since the Wehrmacht was training people faster than the factories could as yet turn out tanks. This would at least give tank drivers practice in running a vehicle of that size and shape, if not the right weight or properly armed. (The sight of such forces in operation also was a useful propaganda tool for Goebbels.)

The commander of the Pomorze cavalry regiment was aware of this, and also had some faulty intelligence (possibly planted?) that the Germans did not have enough tanks to cover the full front of their invasion of Poland, and were using the old "fake tanks" in areas of the front, including his, as a psychological ploy to force the Poles to retreat. Since a crack cavalry regiment, well disciplined, mobile, and good fighters, could easily take on a motorized force impeded by goofball plywood tank-shaped camouflage, he calculated that he had a reasonable chance of defeating them, and charged.

The tanks were real, and deadly. And shortly, his regiment was neither.

But not for an idle gesture. Because a competent commander relied on false intelligence, and misjudged fatally.

RealityChuck
04-29-2001, 04:20 PM
Remember, too, that up until WWII, horses were considerably more reliable than tanks or other motorized vehicles.

Rodd Hill
04-29-2001, 06:18 PM
Dave Cronan made reference to a British cavalry charge near the end of the Great War. I think the incident to which he refers is the charge of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, a Canadian cavalry regiment (still in existence (http://www.nucleus.com/~ldsh/index.htm)), during the bleak retreat of British forces in the face of Ludendorff's March 1918 offensive (http://ebooks.whsmithonline.co.uk/encyclopedia/49/M0030949.htm). Two interesting features to this incident: a Victoria Cross was won, and swords were used--surely one of the very few times during WWI that this occurred.

Lieutenant (that's leftenant, of course) Gordon Muriel Flower dew led a cavalry charge against German trenches, during which he was mortally wounded (and lost a very high proportion of his troop). His citation for the Victoria Cross, published in the London Gazette as a matter of public record, reads:

30 March 1918: For most conspicuous bravery and dash when in command of a squadron detailed for special service of a very important nature. On reaching the first objective, Lieutenant Flowerdew saw two lines of the enemy, each about sixty strong, with machine guns in the centre and flanks, one line about two hundred yards behind the other. Realizing the critical nature of the operation and how many depended upon it, Lieutenant Flowerdew ordered a troop under Lieutenant Harvey to dismount and carry out a special movement while he led the remaining three troops to the charge. The squadron (less one troop) passed over both lines, killing many of the enemy with the sword, and wheeling about galloped at them again. Although the squadron had then lost about 70 percent of its number, killed and wounded, from rifle and machine gun fire directed on it from the front and both flanks, the enemy broke and retired. The survivors then established themselves in a position, where later they were joined, after much hand-to-hand fighting, by Lieutenant Harvey's party. Lieutenant Flowerdew was dangerously wounded through both thighs during the operation, but continued to cheer on his men. There can be no doubt that this officer's great valour was the prime factor in the capture of the position.


I note that despite inflicting very heavy casualties on the horse troops, the Germans "broke and retired."

The last cavalry charge of the Great War is most likely the November 4, 1918 action by Italian bicycle-mounted troops of the 4th Squadon, Aquila Cavalleria, who attacked Austrian positions along a road outside of a small village named--ironically--"Paradiso." The attack failed due to Austrian machine-gun fire.

mongrel_8
04-29-2001, 09:25 PM
I'm not too sure of what your definition of a classical cavalry charge is but wasn't there an article in "National Geographic" or another magazine recently about Afgani soldiers on horseback?

Spavined Gelding
04-29-2001, 09:37 PM
Cavalry, that is horse-mounted units, were used by the Soviets in WWII, but the horses were transportation, not the weapon. Cavalry was also used in Africa, notably in the Portuguese colony of Angola during the post-WWII period. The last use of cavalry in the classic Napoleonic shock tactics sense was probably in Syria and Palestine during WWI.

Other than ceremonial units like the Life Guard and Blues of the British Army, I am not aware of any tactical horse-mounted units. The Italian Army has a spectacular ceremonial horse unit. Before anyone starts giggling, please note that in the 20th Century, the Italians were the leading innovators in military horsemanship. Bill Malding has a great cartoon showing and old cavalry first sergeant holding a pistol to the hood of a broken-axle jeep.

Sunspace
04-30-2001, 12:45 AM
A number of minor questions...

What is the modern equivalnt of a cavalry charge?

Bicycle-mounted troops: I've read of these in HG Wells, but do they now exist? Would they now be motorcycle-mounted troops? Possibly on what we used to call 'scrambler' bikes?

Crusoe
04-30-2001, 03:27 AM
Bicycle mounted troops weren't unusual in World War II, particularly in the early stages. At least the Germans and Japanese had bicycle infantry regiments, I'm sure. It must be a cheap and easy way of making your troops mobile.

Rayne Man
04-30-2001, 01:11 PM
A few years ago I did read about a cavalry charge literally in the last couple of hours before the cease-fire came into force on 11th.November 1918. It was carried out by a small force of cavalry troops and several were killed.It seems that it was an ego-trip by the officer in charge who wanted to end his war on a note of glory.

Little Nemo
05-01-2001, 12:33 AM
Cavalry, that is horse-mounted units, were used by the Soviets in WWII, but the horses were transportation, not the weapon.

The Soviets did occasionally use cavalry in combat. The Red Army's 44th Mongolian Cavalry Division launched a horseback attack against the German 107th Infantry Division on 17 Novemeber 1941. The Soviets hoped that the Germans would be demoralized by the sub-zero weather and the unexpected attack, but they defended themselves well and the Mongolians were wiped out.

Barbarian
05-01-2001, 04:09 AM
Switzerland is in the process of disbanding its bicycle cavalry, which has been around for decades, and lasted longer than it's horse-mounted cavalry.

Osakadave
05-01-2001, 05:00 AM
Thanks for the info guys.

Badtz Maru
05-01-2001, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by Barbarian
Switzerland is in the process of disbanding its bicycle cavalry, which has been around for decades, and lasted longer than it's horse-mounted cavalry.

I was just thinking a motorcycle cavalry might be effective. I guess if it was it would be used already, though...

Milton De La Warre
05-01-2001, 09:40 AM
I beleive the Rhodesians used horse cavalary against their opponents from time to time, with good results. Of course, they eventually lost the war.

The Red Chinese once put out a film in which they showed gas-mask type protection they had made for their horses and mounted troops. The film shows a charge made with the horses and men all in their chemical suits. The cavalarymen were using AK-47s.

Rayne Man
05-01-2001, 02:19 PM
In the book "Blitzkrieg" Len Dieghton points out the fact of how much the German army was dependant on horses all through The Second World War,much more than any other army.The main use was for transportation of troops and material even up to the front line.He points out one drawback of horses over trucks-that of fuel.If you don't use a truck for a few days it does not need any fuel.A horse,on the other hand,needs to be watered and fed every day even if its not doing any work.So you have to provide more transport just for horse feed.The horses on the Eastern Front also suffered from the extreme conditions ,even more than the troops.

hibernicus
05-01-2001, 02:29 PM
In the Italian campaign in Abbyssinia (now Ethiopia) in the late 1930s (1937 I think) there were cavalry actions of the kind you mention.

jsc1953
05-01-2001, 02:47 PM
When I saw the subject in the index, I thought "that's easy: Ombdurman", where British forces under Kitchener defeated the Mahdi; Sudan, 1898. I'd always heard that described as the Last Cavalry Charge.

Sofa King
05-01-2001, 04:13 PM
If you take Archer Jones' superb The Art of War in the Western World at face value, the modern day equivalent of cavalry would be a tank. It is a rough battlefield equivalent to the breastplate-wearing cavalier carrying both sword and pistol; mobile, armored, capable of using both shock (or crunch) and ranged attacks.

Similarly, a Bradley fighting vehicle might be the rough equivalent of mounted infantry.

The motorcycle is still used by many nations in the same capacity that the horse served in for so long: reconaissance and communications.

ftg
05-01-2001, 08:30 PM
A little different take on this.

I am of the opinion that the last cavalry charge has not yet occured. There are an immense number of Mongolian mounted warriors out there (living not just in Mongolia, but Russia and Chine, cf. Little Nemo's and JCHeckler's posts). It wouldn't take much to push these guys over the edge and into full Golden Horde action. It's just a little border dispute away.

warinner
05-02-2001, 10:07 AM
A definitional quibble: 'cavalry' is trained and equipped to fight on horseback. 'Mounted infantry' gets to the battlefield on horseback but fights on foot. So, yes, there were 'cavalry' units that fought in WWII, but they were really mounted infantry.

David Cronan wrote:

He points out one drawback of horses over trucks-that of fuel.If you don't use a truck for a few days it does not need any fuel.A horse,on the other hand,needs to be watered and fed every day even if its not doing any work.So you have to provide more transport just for horse feed.

Yabbut, motorized transport suffers from the same effect. Trucks burn gas/diesel transporting POL to the front lines. At some point fuel expended in transportation exceeds the fuel transported.

And mechanization requires huge amounts of supplies. Mechanized armies travel no faster than those did by hoof and shoe leather.

Andrew Warinner