Let it go, for Christs sake!

[Airman Doors, USAF]

I usually don't get all wound up about little things like this, but I've seen and heard enough.

Look at http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70305.

Danalan, I'm sure you thought you were being pretty cute. A couple of months ago I probably would have thought it was funny. Now it's just plain old.

Gore lost. He lost in every way possible. He lost at the polls. He lost in court. He lost in public opinion.

He just plain lost. Dubya is your president now.

I don't think I can take another four years of this shit. Enough with the sour grapes, already.

[kabbes]

Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF
I don't think I can take another four years of this shit.Hmm. I think that you've left yourself wiiiiiiide open with that one...

pan

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Kabbes,

I think you may be right.

What I was referring to was the persistent moaning and whining about "Gore won the popular vote but Bush is the president". Bush IS the president, like it or not.

Also, why is it that the Electoral College is such a big issue now? It's been in the Constitution for 200+ years now. All of the sudden, when the election doesn't go the way it probably should have, everyone is crying about it. That's the system, folks. Always has been. Quit bitching about it and accept your fate.

What they should be bitching about is the complete lack of intelligence on the part of the Florida voters.

How fucking hard is it to pay attention to what you're doing? If you're confused, ask for directions.

Florida got what it deserved. An illiterate President for a state of illiterate voters. Poetic justice, if you ask me.

[kabbes]

Hmm. Seems to me from this side of the pond that what you should be doing is ensuring that it doesn't happen again. Having a look at your various electoral mechanisms, from procedures of deciding ballot papers* to the method of counting, that kind of thing.

pan

ps: Your last line is certainly amusing, I'll give you that. But unfortunately Florida has actually given the "illiterate president" to the whole country and the world to boot.


[/quote]*e.g. I still don't get why you don't have a standard type of ballot paper used in every polling booth in the country

[BoBettie]

Airman,
I'm not trying to rag on you here, but I wanted to ask about a couple of your points.

It's been in the Constitution for 200+ years now. All of the sudden, when the election doesn't go the way it probably should have, everyone is crying about it. That's the system, folks. Always has been. Quit bitching about it and accept your fate.

(bolding mine)
I'm very confused here. I don't have strong opinions either way about the election, but I'm wondering- does this mean that if a particular system seems to be flawed and could possibly be fixed, we shouldn't bother and should just roll over and ignore it? I feel exactly opposite. I don't think that bitching will do any good, but possibly election procedures should be examined in light of the 2000 mess.

Florida got what it deserved. An illiterate President for a state of illiterate voters. Poetic justice, if you ask me.
Um, what about the rest of us? Didn't we all get the very same president?

How fucking hard is it to pay attention to what you're doing? If you're confused, ask for directions.
If I'm not mistaken, that seemed to be an issue during the elections- that people who needed assistance were not able to obtain it. Also, people with visual impairments, motor control problems, mental retardation, and other disabilities have the right to vote and could easily have been confused by some of the ballots presented, in my opinion. Should they ask for help if needed? Of course. But, for example, if it appears that you are filling the form out correctly, why would you ask someone?

What I was referring to was the persistent moaning and whining about "Gore won the popular vote but Bush is the president". Bush IS the president, like it or not.

On this point, I heartily agree. George W. Bush is our president. If you are upset with the way the election went, go to your elected officials and persuade them to work on election reform. Otherwise, quit bitching.

Zette

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Originally posted by Zette
Airman,
. I don't have strong opinions either way about the election, but I'm wondering- does this mean that if a particular system seems to be flawed and could possibly be fixed, we shouldn't bother and should just roll over and ignore it? I feel exactly opposite. I don't think that bitching will do any good, but possibly election procedures should be examined in light of the 2000 mess.

I agree with that one hundred percent. I'm all for election reform. I'm just saying that given the current system, nobody has the right to complain about the results.

Florida got what it deserved. An illiterate President for a state of illiterate voters. Poetic justice, if you ask me.
Um, what about the rest of us? Didn't we all get the very same president?

Yes we did. But the point I was making was that it is primarily due to the incompetence of the Florida voters. The election was won and lost in Florida. That one state ultimately was the deciding factor.

How fucking hard is it to pay attention to what you're doing? If you're confused, ask for directions.
If I'm not mistaken, that seemed to be an issue during the elections- that people who needed assistance were not able to obtain it. Also, people with visual impairments, motor control problems, mental retardation, and other disabilities have the right to vote and could easily have been confused by some of the ballots presented, in my opinion. Should they ask for help if needed? Of course. But, for example, if it appears that you are filling the form out correctly, why would you ask someone?

Touche. Still, were there really that many people that were disabled and such, or was it mostly due to inattentiveness? I suspect that that's the real reason that Gore lost the election. Nobody paid attention.

Well, they're paying now, aren't they?

[Spritle]

Speaking of paying...

One of the counties in Fla. (Broward?) is buying NEW voting machines!! What to do with the old ones? They will be put up for "public" auction on e-bay. You can buy a little piece of history.

[BoBettie]

Touche. Still, were there really that many people that were disabled and such, or was it mostly due to inattentiveness? I suspect that that's the real reason that Gore lost the election. Nobody paid attention.

Excellent question, and the very one that should be investigated so we don't get a repeat performance.

I'm just saying that given the current system, nobody has the right to complain about the results.
Not to be a nitpicker, but yes, they do have the right to complain about the results. The can bitch, moan, and cry for all eternity. I personally would prefer that they instead focus their energies on some sort of reform.

Eww. This sounds way too touchy-feely for the Pit. Go felch yourself, Airman! With a crazy straw, no less!

Zette

[matt_mcl]

I'd just like to remind folks that in a democracy, which is a system in which the governance is based on public discourse, bitching and moaning are a perfectly legitimate part of that discourse, and I'd probably respect these people less if they shut up than if they bitched.

[gobear]

Bitching and moaning aren't constructive tools of public discourse; they're just, well, bitching and moaning. If people wish to protest Bush's utterly wrongheaded missile defense plans or his abandonment of clean air and water standards, that's different. But the petty sniping about the election changes nothing and makes Democrats look like bad sports. Mind you, the Republican smear campaign against the Clintons for the past eight years does not leave the Right with any moral high ground.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Originally posted by matt_mcl
I'd just like to remind folks that in a democracy, which is a system in which the governance is based on public discourse, bitching and moaning are a perfectly legitimate part of that discourse, and I'd probably respect these people less if they shut up than if they bitched.

Hey, I'm all for public discourse. However, this long ago ceased being a reasonable topic of discussion. It has degenerated into a never ending stream of potshots from disenchanted people.

We can have a reasonable discussion without the snide remarks and wise ass comments. The topic is:

"What can we do to keep this from happening again?".

It is NOT "Bush isn't the "real" president".

He is the real president. End of story. Full stop. Period.

If you can't accept that and address the real issues, shut the fuck up.

And that's the crux of my problem. No one wants to discuss that. They just keep going with the bullshit. And I'm tired of it.

Oh, and goboy, I'm an independent. I always hold the moral high ground. ;)

[John Corrado]

Originally posted by matt_mcl
...I'd probably respect these people less if they shut up than if they bitched.

On the other hand, just bitching about things does little do advance one's position or convert anyone to one's set of beliefs; rather, it is designed to pester and annoy those who feel differently.

Discuss with me why you think Bush's latest plan is untenable or misguided, and you may convince me; or, perhaps (though less likely), you might hear the other side of the argument and change *your* mind. Call Bush a pretender who gained his office in a coup d'etat and talk about how democracy is dead in this country, and I doubt I'll ever pay attention to anything else you say. But you'll be able to surround yourself with plenty of people who reverberate your whine and thus help convince you of your own righteousness.

Personally, I'd rather be respected than popular.

[Tars Tarkas]

Gore lost. He lost in every way possible. He lost at the polls. He lost in court. He lost in public opinion.



What I was referring to was the persistent moaning and whining about "Gore won the popular vote but Bush is the president"

uh, did you read your two posts, airman?

not like i care who won that election, they both sucked, though i am proud to say i voted for "not Bush"

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Originally posted by Tars Tarkas

Gore lost. He lost in every way possible. He lost at the polls. He lost in court. He lost in public opinion.



What I was referring to was the persistent moaning and whining about "Gore won the popular vote but Bush is the president"

uh, did you read your two posts, airman?

not like i care who won that election, they both sucked, though i am proud to say i voted for "not Bush"


My statements were made in the context of the Electoral College. Gore won the popular vote, sure, but he didn't win the electoral vote, which is far more important.

Gore carried California by a large margin. So what? Does that mean that the smaller states should be disenfranchised by the larger states?

That is what the Electoral College is all about. It's a progressive way of balancing the larger, more powerful states with the smaller ones.

(soapbox)

One man, one vote does not work in this country. The smaller, more conservative states would be immediately placed in a disadvantageous situation. The larger, more progressive states would be in a position to assert their will.

Hell, look right here in Pennsylvania, where I live. Bush won virtually everywhere. Just not in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia. He ended up losing the state. The voters in my area were disenfranchised right there.

And that's why we need to have some meaningful voter reforms. What, you don't like the Electoral College? Come up with a better idea.

Just don't piss and moan when your candidate loses. Don't blame the system. Blame yourselves.

(/end soapbox)

But that's hardly germane to my point. I'm just tired of the sore losers, the constant reminders of their loss, and their inability to cope with it. That's my point.

[wring]

Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF
. I'm just tired of the sore losers, the constant reminders of their loss, and their inability to cope with it. That's my point.

how do you feel about sore winners? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70209)tm

[minty green]

Hell, look right here in Pennsylvania, where I live. Bush won virtually everywhere. Just not in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia. He ended up losing the state. The voters in my area were disenfranchised right there.
Feh. Coming out on the losing end of a democratic election is NOT the same thing as being disenfranchised, Doors. The Republican voters in rural Pennsylvania voted and lost, just like the Democratic voters in Texas. Neither group was "disenfranchised" by any stretch of the imagination. It is at least arguable that voters in Florida were disenfranchised.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

At least the "sore winners" go on with their lives instead of saying "coulda, woulda, shoulda" a full 5 months after the election is over.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Oh, and while I'm thinking (a rare thing, I assure you), you might want to look at this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70155.

It's similar in import, if not in content.

[wring]

Airman, with all due respect, I'd suggest that the link provided demonstrates a sore winner not able to 'let go and live their life' several months later. his guy was declared the winner in the area that he's carping about, and he's still looking for conspiracies to 'prevent' a Bush win. Sheesh.

[minty green]

And I see that both Doors and Milossarian have both chosen to "go on with their lives" in the last two days by posting lengthy pit rants about inconsequential references to last year's election. Milo freaked out over nothing more than a user name. At least you, Doors, have chosen to freak out over a post that was all of one sentence long.

Move along, indeed. :rolleyes:

[ElvisL1ves]

Well, someone who starts a thread demanding that people who disagree with him "let go" and "get on with their lives", then posts 5 or more times to it repeating the demand, has certainly exposed himself to some question as to who is having problems "letting go", hasn't he?

[UncleBeer]

Also, why is it that the Electoral College is such a big issue now? It's been in the Constitution for 200+ years now. All of the sudden, when the election doesn't go the way it probably should have, everyone is crying about it.
Actually, this couldn't be more innacurate. There have been serious proposals in the U.S. Congress for over 200 years to modify the laws governing the workings of the Electoral College. I recently read a damned good magazine article delineating the various proposals and their fates. I'll see if I can find it on-line and post a link for ya. I believe the article appeared in American Heritage. I don't, however, know if they offer an on-line archive.

Crap. It's not available over the 'net. I'll see if I can find some time to write a synopsis for ya.
http://www.americanheritage.com

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Elvis and Minty,

I don't, repeat don't care about the election, or the results. I'm just venting a little spleen at the expense of those who do.

If I'm persistent, it's because I have nothing else to do today, and it's a topic that has been bugging me for a long time. The link I provided was just the last straw. I'm really trying to stimulate a good conversation.

UncleBeer, I'd appreciate that synopsis very much.

[minty green]

If I'm persistent, it's because I have nothing else to do today, and it's a topic that has been bugging me for a long time.In all fairness, the same things could probably be said about Danalan and gorewonfla. Are their revisionist sentiments childish and useless? You betcha. Are they pit-worthy? Well, I've seen far lamer grounds for pit rants. But at least hold yourself to a higher standard than the people you're ranting about!

[beagledave]

Originally posted by UncleBeer
I recently read a damned good magazine article delineating the various proposals and their fates. I'll see if I can find it on-line and post a link for ya. I believe the article appeared in American Heritage. I don't, however, know if they offer an on-line archive.

Crap. It's not available over the 'net. I'll see if I can find some time to write a synopsis for ya.
http://www.americanheritage.com [/B]

Interested parties might wish to check this out
http://erin.home.4t.com/ECollege.html

[Soccerbaby]

My feeling about the whole election isn't really relevent because i didn't get to vote being 16 and all, but having somewhat of a interest in what is going on in the country i listen to what Bush has tried to do. Now keeping this going isn't really doing anything like other have said "let it go and move on". This might sound odd for me to say but i didnt' really like Clinton either but he did some good for the country, now give Bush a little time and maybe he can do some good as well, we can only wait and see what happens. Doors, i know your feelings about it, i heard it for weeks after the election but you have to live with what happened for the next four years and at that time maybe we can change it because i know that i'll be able to vote and i'll have my say! So even if your candidate didn't win just move on and see what happens!

[UncleBeer]

Okay, it might take me a couple of days to get to it, but I'll post it right here when I'm finished.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF
Oh, and while I'm thinking (a rare thing, I assure you), you might want to look at this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70155.

It's similar in import, if not in content.

Wrong damn link. Oops. I thought I did that. It was bothering me all day.

Here's the right one: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70298 . It links to Milo's thread.

Now I'm happy. Embarrased, but happy.

Oh, and Soccerbaby, you're a loser. ;)

I CAN say that to my own sister, can't I? :D

[ITR champion]

So what made all you Republicans suddenly go ballistic about this sniping by the "sore loser" democrats? This is no different than the whining that Republicans had been doing throughout the Clinton administration, and in some cases are still continuing to do. You could start a thread on any political topic you like and some Republican would always try to interrupt the discussion by reminding us that WJC had sex with an intern/ sold secrets to the Chinese/ didn't inhale. Well, in the case of the helping Chinese spies, it just an outright lie, since those of us who actually follow the news are aware that charges against Wen Ho Lee were dropped. In the other two cases, yeah he did, but so what. I grew really tired of Republicans trying to sidetrack real debates by raising these "issues" every ten seconds.

Now suppose that Gore had become the president because the dems were able to trick a few people into punching the wrong hole. Don't you think the Republicans would still be whining about it?

[Tejota]

Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF
Yes we did. But the point I was making was that it is primarily due to the incompetence of the Florida voters. The election was won and lost in Florida. That one state ultimately was the deciding factor.

Uh no. It was due to incompetent ballot design.
How fucking hard is it to pay attention to what you're doing? If you're confused, ask for directions.
And if you are misled by bad interface design, how do you know that that you need to ask for assistance? Blaming the victim is generally considered bad form in polite society. (which, admittedly the pit is not).

Insisting that the USA stop talking about how the loser of the election ended up in the White House is NOT a way to insure that democracy survives.

But hey, if you want to blame the victim instead of solving the problem, you go right on ahead. You picked the right place for it.

tj

[2sense]

Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF

Also, why is it that the Electoral College is such a big issue now? It's been in the Constitution for 200+ years now. All of the sudden...

According to the National Archives (http://www.nara.gov/fedreg/elctcoll/faq.html#reforms) the Electoral College has been the subject of over 700 constitutional amendments proposed in Congress, more than any other issue.

One man, one vote does not work in this country. The smaller, more conservative states would be immediately placed in a disadvantageous situation. The larger, more progressive states would be in a position to assert their will.

I submit that the way to avoid having some states dominate others in a vote is to not let states vote. Under a popular vote no state would be in a position to assert anything since the states wouldn't be voting. Many people are mislead into thinking that just because states with smaller populations receive disproportionate representation in the college that their residents have more of an effect on the outcome. This is untrue. Allow me to introduce you to the Banzhaf Power Index (http://www.cs.unc.edu/~livingst/Banzhaf/).

The Banzhaf Power Index was introduced by John F. Banzhaf III for the purpose of analyzing block voting systems, such as the U.S. Electoral College that elects the president. Banzhaf's method and previous methods are based on probabilistic analysis of the individual voters in a block voting system.
-

[T] he probability that a citizen voter will change the outcome of the election with his/her vote is...
...the probability that both the individual changes the block's decision and the block's votes change the election

The states with more electoral votes have a greater chance of changing the outcome of the election, since all of those votes will be cast for a single candidate. If you scroll about halfway down that page you will find a chart showing just the chances a voter in each state had of changing the outcome of an election. The numbers are given proportional to that of the chances of the least powerful voters, which in 1990 lived in Wyoming. The top three are Californians, with over three times the effect of the Wyomingites, along with New Yorkers and Texans with over twice the power of Wyomingites.

"Small" states are empowered, yes. But their voters still get fucked over.

Hell, look right here in Pennsylvania, where I live. Bush won virtually everywhere. Just not in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia.

No he didn't.
You don't win anything in parts of states ( except in Nebraska and Maine ). You can only win the whole state. Bush led in more counties here in Pennsylvania than Gore did but you don't win until the votes are counted. Gore received 204,840 more votes statewide and therefor won the electoral votes. I could link to the infamous county by county map to show that your claim that Bush lead in only Philly and da 'Burgh is a bit of an exaggeration but that might lead to complications.

What, you don't like the Electoral College? Come up with a better idea.

There is no need to invent something new since the EC is inferior to a popular vote.

-----
2sense - PV Warrior

[Abe]

Don't forget that people aren't just moaning about the Electoral College, which is a pretty dumb system in this day and age and is bound to cause frustration, but also about the numerous allegations of irregularities during the elections (some of them appear to have supporting evidence). They are being discussed in other forums on this site.

[Akatsukami]

Originally posted by UncleBeer
Also, why is it that the Electoral College is such a big issue now? It's been in the Constitution for 200+ years now. All of the sudden, when the election doesn't go the way it probably should have, everyone is crying about it.
Actually, this couldn't be more innacurate.
Actually, it could be more inaccurate. Nobody gives a rat's hindquarters about proposals to reform and/or abolish the Electoral Collge. Proposals have been made by serious thinkers, as you say, for two hundred years (as well by barely literate yahoos and Mussolinis manque whose touchstone for democracy is that they get all the power).

Agreeing on the need for abolishing the Electoral College is trivial. Getting a consensus on what replaces it isn't. Airman, you think that the whining of hardcore Goristas is annoying? Wait until the first election of the Electoral College is replaced, and the partisans of the losing candidates refuse to acknowledge that someone can be a "legitimate" President who got less than a majority or the vote...or won a runoff in which all but two candidates were excluded...or was chosen by the incoming or the outgoing House...

[Tars Tarkas]

Proposals have been made by serious thinkers, as you say, for two hundred years (as well by barely literate yahoos and Mussolinis manque whose touchstone for democracy is that they get all the power).



yes, stupid people, thinking they should be able to decide who should be their leader, not some random guys nobody ever heard of..

How dare average americans assert their God given right to decide for themselves. we all know that only 51% of the population in these 11 states should decide

California (55)
Florida (27)
Georgia (15)
Illinois (21)
Michigan (17)
New Jersey (15)
New York (31)
North Carolina (15)
Ohio (20)
Pennsylvania (21)
Texas (34)

Total= 271, with only 270 needed to win

tell me there is nothing wrong with that, and i'll have a bridge to sell you...


if you want to do your own calculations http://www.nara.gov/fedreg/elctcoll/naracalc.html