That Wacky Taliban Does It Again!

[Eve]

"KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Hindus will be required to wear an identity label on their clothing in Islamic Afghanistan to distinguish them from Muslims, a Taliban minister said Tuesday. The hardline Taliban regime that controls 95 percent of this poor Central Asian state plans to enforce the edict soon, Mohammed Wali, religious police minister, told The Associated Press. An exact date was not set, he said. The law will also make it mandatory for Hindu women to veil themselves - just like Muslim women of Afghanistan, Wali said.

The edict prompted an angry statement from Hindu-dominated India. "We absolutely deplore such orders which patently discriminate against minorities," Press Trust of India quoted an unnamed Indian foreign ministry official as saying. "It is further evidence of the backward and unacceptable ideological underpinning of the Taliban."

The decision could further isolate the orthodox Islamic militia, already under fire from the West for alleged discriminatory policies toward ethnic and religious minorities, human rights abuses and poor treatment of women. But Wali said the decision is in line with Islam. "Religious minorities living in an Islamic state must be identified," he said."

—I know it's all to easy to refer to any group your don't like as Nazis ("feminazis," "anti-smoking Nazis"); but in this casew the comparison fairly whacks you over the head with a rubber chicken.

[LouisB]

We all need to remember that the Taliban is a "faith-based" government. I wonder what Ashcroft's views are on that?

[Heloise]

—I know it's all to easy to refer to any group your don't like as Nazis ("feminazis," "anti-smoking Nazis"); but in this casew the comparison fairly whacks you over the head with a rubber chicken.

I just wonder if/when someone will intervene. How many atrocities must take place in what amount of time before someone does something?

[Heloise]

—I know it's all to easy to refer to any group your don't like as Nazis ("feminazis," "anti-smoking Nazis"); but in this casew the comparison fairly whacks you over the head with a rubber chicken.

I just wonder if/when someone will intervene. How many atrocities must take place in what amount of time before someone does something?

[BF]

Not a stretch, there eh? Ashcroft = Taleban? :confused:

[Jonathan Chance]

When do we get to throw a war and kill these people?

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Originally posted by Jonathan Chance
When do we get to throw a war and kill these people?

At least wait until I can help!

[gobear]

So how long before the Taliban start their own version of the Final Solution to the Hindu Question? Are we going to see another Rwanda and stand idle again? We've seen bloody war between Hindus and Muslims before during the Partition of India and Pakistan in 1947. Given the Taliban's track record of barbarism, I don't see it to be too far a leap from regarding the Hindus as infidels who must be labeled to being infidels who must be destroyed.

Having watched "Anne Frank" on ABC last night, this news depresses me beyond words. Don't people ever freakin' learn?
Armenia, Auschwitz, Cambodia, Bosnia, Rwanda--persecuting and killing people who are different from you seems to be a depressingly universal trait.

[Collounsbury]

Are you all smoking crack? Go to war in the mountains of Afghanistan? Oh this is bound to be successful. No one is going to intervene in Afghanistan. Perhaps some extra aid to the Tadjik and other minorities fighting in the extreme north, but nothing more than that.

[minty green]

Hey, don't worry, people! The Taliban have nothing but the best of intentions here. They just want to protect the Hindus from . . . well, fuck, I don't know what the Hindus need protection from, other than the Taliban. But this is an really act of mercy:Munawaar Hasan, general secretary of a major Islamic political party called Jamaat-e-Islami, or Islamic Party, said the move seems aimed to give protection to Hindus.

"The Taleban should win praise for this step," he said. "Providing protection to religious minorities is a must in any Islamic country and this step seems in line with this concept."
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/05/22/afghanistan.hindu/index.html

:rolleyes:

[Billdo]

The last time anybody tried to invade Afganistan, it was rather a disaster.

In the 80's, the Soviet Union, arguably at the height of its military power, tried to invade Afganistan, a country just on its southern border, and failed, miserably. It can be credibly argued that the Afganistan war was a major factor in the decline and eventual collapse of the Soviet Union.

Meanwhile, the reverberations of that war (and the U.S. efforts to arm the Afganis against the Soviet invaders) permitted the rise of the Taliban government.

I don't really know my history on this, but didn't the British get their butts whipped in the area in the 1800's as well.

Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that the U.S. or any coalition of world powers would have the ability to invade and occupy Afganistan, no matter the atrocities atrocities committed by the government there.

[Eve]

Well. Obviously going to war with the Taliban will not work.

I don't suppose cutting them socially would have much of an impact? You know, misplacing their party invitations, failing to introduce them at social gatherings? Withering looks and icy stares?

[hawthorne]

Perhaps we could boycott their smack.

[minty green]

Actually, picmr, the Taliban appear to have wiped out Afghanistan's opium poppies.

[Ukulele Ike]

WHAT?

That's IT ! Now they've gone TOO FAR!



-- Willie the Weeper, kicking the gong around

[Sue Duhnym]

Afghan rulers shut down hospital, saying it violates Islam
FOREIGN STAFF FORCED TO ABANDON FACILITY FOR POOR

http://www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/world/docs/afghan20.htm

Can people leave Afghanistan? Why on earth would they stay?

[wolfman]

Damn, I'd love to be outraged. Unfortunately, it has recently been discovered that as an American, I'm unqualified to speak on matters of human rights. ;)

[Spavined Gelding]

There can't be much doubt that the Taliban is a reprehensible outfit, xenophobic, narrow minded, authoritarian and all the rest. The fact remains that no outside power is likely to do much about it except run off at the mouth, because:

1. There isn't much going on in Afghanistan that has a significant impact on anyone else. If the Taliban's misrule does not adversely affect another state, no other state is going to be inclined to do anything about it. Iran and India are Afghanistan's neighbors and the states most directly affected by whatever might be going on there. The Iranian gov't. might well think that the Taliban is doing the right and proper thing. India sets its self up as the international protector of Hindus, but that is mostly jaw music for local consumption and is not likely to see the prospective plight of Afghan Hindus as a sufficient basis to intervene beyond the Afghan Hills. Between border wars with China and Pakistan, India has more than enough military adventures to keep busy. India's capacity to do something really goofy, however, should not be underestimated. A nation capable of believing in the Monkey-man of Delhi is capable of almost anything.
2. The prospect of inducing the Taliban to change its ways is pretty remote. There are no social or economic pressures that are painful enough to work. We should restrict Air Taliban's landing rights at O'Hare, maybe, or refuse to send them medical equipment? This leaves a military option. Before you start putting together the march tables for that one, you should consult Alexander the Great, the British Empire, the Mogul Emperors of India and the former USSR.
3. Oh, what the Hell, Hi Opal.

In short, as deplorable as the Taliban's efforts to make Afghanistan safe for a reactionary sept of Islam and to shove its own warped concept of the faith down the throat of every one who cannot get out of the country, the place is simply too remote and too non-threatening for any one to take effective action to stop them. We have seen this happen countless times and should not be surprised to see it happen again. Until the Taliban threatens the vital interest of some neighbor and the stability of the region, it will be permitted to go on its own merry way.

We may perceive with alarm and point with dismay all we want. Its not going to change anything.

[Spavined Gelding]

First sentence, third paragraph--no verb. Insert "might be" where ever it fits. Got carried away by my own wit and eloquence. Sorry.

[Spavined Gelding]

Fourth paragraph, damn it!

[Tamerlane]

Billdo: 1842 - The First Afghan War. Out of 4,500 troops and 12,000 odd camp followers only a handful of women and children survived to reach British territory after retreating from Kabul. Plus one European, Dr. William Brydon, who reached the British garrison at Jallalabad, to report that he was "the army of the Indus."

Afghanistan is a tactician's nightmare. Initial conquest of things like population centers is easy. Holding the countryside long term is another thing altogether. Nobody is going to intervene without good reason. And, sadly, this isn't good enough for a government.

Spavined Gelding:
The Iranian govt. might well think that the Taliban is doing the right and proper thing.

I sincerely doubt it. The Iranian leadership, theocracy or no, are enlightened exemplars of benevolence compared to the Taliban. The Ayatollahs are conservative zealots. The Taliban are the regional equivalent of "Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel" who have found religion. Calling them reactionary fanatics is not nearly strong enough. They're a stain on the Koran.

Frankly, I could probably make the case that the Iranians are the most likely to intervene. Not for this latest atrocity ( and it is an atrocity ) - But rather in reaction to the Taliban's abuse of local Shi'ites. But Iran's profound internal difficulties make it unlikely, unless pressed hard.

India does not share a border with Afghanistan. They'd have to go through Pakistan. NOT going to happen.

Nope, I agree with those that think this ugly little festering mess is just going to continue to fester :-/ .

- Tamerlane

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

The USSR used:
Infantry
Armor
Artillery
Helicopters
Massive Air Power
Chemical Weapons
Bio-Chemical Weapons
And the Rumored use of--
True Biological Warfare (The scariest one, to me)


We would not be able to go as far, for political reasons.

This is a very bad idea.

[Tranquilis]

The Iranian leadership, theocracy or no, are enlightened exemplars of benevolence compared to the Taliban.
The Taliban are the Jack Chicks of Islam?

WARNING! Religious Opinion WARNING!



The Koran is considered by Muslims to be the "Word of God as revealed to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel."



Hadith is a collection of the Prophet's sayings written well after his death. It takes the form of "so and so told me that so and so heard the Prophet say such and such." This collection of second and third hand reports has taken on divine status. (There is a faction of American Muslims, Submitters, who reject Hadith but that is another thread.)



This devolving divine status of the Hadith has become manifest in the Taliban's rulings. Rulings by the Taliban are based upon Hadith, not Koran, The Word of God."
I dar'st anyone to support a Taliban ruling with a sura from the Koran.



The bad news: taliban will test Allah's slaves a decade before shaytan claims his prize.



The good news: hadith may attain its due as shaytan's greatest work.

[Shirley Ujest]

1842 - The First Afghan War. Out of 4,500 troops and 12,000 odd camp followers ...


Dead Heads way back in 42, who'da thunk it.



could not resist. Carry on.

[Miller]

I think we should start up round-the-clock bombings of Afghanistan. Except we don't drop bombs. We drop Britney Spears CDs, home entertainment centers, Playboy magazines, DVD players, Harry Potter novels, porno movies, satellite dishes, Furbies, you name it. That's right, full scale culture war. I think we can make the Taliban as shallow and indolent as ourselves within a decade.

[Spavined Gelding]

As shallow and indolent as you? In ten years? Maybe. To become as shallow and indolent as I am it will take them a couple generations, minimum.

Originally posted by Nimune
...round-the-clock bombings of Afghanistan...Britney Spears CDs, home entertainment centers, Playboy magazines, DVD players, Harry Potter novels, porno movies, satellite dishes, Furbies,...full scale culture war

By George, I think he's got it.

Running outside with arms outstreched.

[Tazma]

Originally posted by AcidKid

Hadith is a collection of the Prophet's sayings written well after his death. It takes the form of "so and so told me that so and so heard the Prophet say such and such." This collection of second and third hand reports has taken on divine status.

Kinda like chain email spam, eh?

"This really happened to my dentist's cousin's fourth-grade math teacher!"

Oh, and if you forward this message to every infidel in your address book, Eddie Money Fans ForeverTM will send you "two tickets to paradise" and a signed photograph.

[Sue Duhnym]

Originally posted by AcidKid
The bad news: taliban will test Allah's slaves a decade before shaytan claims his prize.

The good news: hadith may attain its due as shaytan's greatest work.

WhOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!

Huh?

Layman's terms, please?

[Collounsbury]

First, on getting out of the country. There are millions of Afghan refugees in Pakistan and Iran (and no doubt in its Central Asian nieghbors, but I am not up on that). They largely live in miserable poverty. Want to get people out, don't talk, send money to aid organizations and agitate for asylum based assistance. Otherwise all the talk here is rank hypocrisy, along the lines of 'oh those poor natives, but I don't want them here.'

As for Iran, the Iranians fairly loathe the Taleban for a number of reasons. Indeed the Iranian denunciations of the destruction of the statues was among the strongest as I recall. First, the Taleban are Sunni of a flavor that largely considers Shiites to be pretty close to apostates. Not good for the Shiites in the south. Iran feels protective of shi'i minorities who tend to get a raw deal from Taleban sorts (e.g. Saudi Arabia, which has a shi'i minority).

Further, even the Iranian hyper-religious are modernists. The Taleban are, as I think Tamerlane said, a bunch of slack jawed country bumpkin preachers whose ideas seem to be drawn from early Medieval texts and whack ass visions. Even the Iranian Ayatollahs don't like this (considering themselves quite learned and cultured).

In re the distribution of western porn etc. of course this is actually likely simply to confirm the Taleban's agit-prop that the Western devils are trying to destroy Afghan culture. I.e, playing into their hands.

[coffeecat]

Originally posted by Sue Duhnym
Originally posted by AcidKid
The bad news: taliban will test Allah's slaves a decade before shaytan claims his prize.

The good news: hadith may attain its due as shaytan's greatest work.

WhOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!

Huh?

Layman's terms, please?

Allah's slaves=God's servants
shaytan=satan

[Gyrate]

The newspaper version of the same story in The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4190999,00.html) had this tidbit:


Although there were once 50,000 Hindus in Afghanistan, almost all have fled and only around 300 remain. The country still has a 2,000-strong Sikh community and one Jewish rabbi.

[...]

The sole surviving member of the country's Jewish community now lives in Chicken Street, Kabul's former hippy hang-out. Afghanistan still has a couple of of functioning Sikh and Hindu temples, albeit in a state of disrepair.
"One Jewish rabbi"? You just know there's an interesting story there...

[Bob Scene]

One thing we in the U.S. could do about the Taliban is quit sending them huge amounts of money. (http://www.latimes.com/news/comment/20010522/t000042732.html) There has never in the entire history of the world been a regime too evil, too backward or too cruel for American politicians to suck up to for short-term political advantage.

[Miller]

Collounsbury: Well, of course the Taliban would hate it. But when they try and take it away from their citizens, well, then you've got a shot at an uprising to throw the bastards out. The Taliban can promise houris in heaven, but we can promise Christa Nicole on page 56. There's a lot to be said for the power of instant gratification.

[KarlGrenze]

[hijack]In the European Medieval era, the muslims where the most enlightened people. They translated the Greek and Latin works to Arab. Thanks to them, those great works by the classical authors were saved. Also, they contributed to math, astronomy, and the sciences.[end of hijack]

[manhattan]

Porn? Feh. You guys don't know nuthin' about subverting governments. Whatcha gotta do is parachute in some lawyers and program traders. We did that to Japan in the late '80's (remember when everyone was spazzing because Japanese companies were buying Rockerfeller Center and Hawaii and stuff?) and their economy still hasn't recovered.

In all seriousness, Collounsbury has it exactly right. Military intervention, while perhaps morally justified now or in the future, is just not an option in that part of the world. In particular, it is not an option for the "overwhelming force, heavy firepower, take the land, kill what moves" mode of warfare in which the United States has undeniable skill. If you want to save the people, the only two options are a) assist them in their own (possibly futile) efforts to retake control of the country or b) move them out.

For option b) to be viable, you have to give them someplace to go. Pakistan is full. If the US wanted to really show some leadership on this, we'd offer to take in ~2 MM immigrants from the region over the next decade.

Personally, I think we have the room, and I'm up for it. Anyone else?

[Tranquilis]

Originally posted by manhattan
...we'd offer to take in ~2 MM immigrants from the region over the next decade.

Personally, I think we have the room, and I'm up for it. Anyone else?

My experience with the Afganis is that they are, for the most part, hard working, studious, and polite. I'll take a dozen families in my neighborhood, to displace all the noisy college students.

[Miller]

Sure, my couch folds out. C'mon over!

[Sue Duhnym]

Originally posted by Bob Scene
One thing we in the U.S. could do about the Taliban is quit sending them huge amounts of money. (http://www.latimes.com/news/comment/20010522/t000042732.html)

Oh jeeeeezus. It's ironic that Bush would give them money to end the drug trade there when he is so obviously still using himself.

And I call myself a Republican...shoot me now and start my funeral pyre with my voter registration card.

[andygirl]

Apparantly they're going to identify Hindus using yellow strips of cloth.

Irony has reached critical mass, folks.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by Nimune
Collounsbury: Well, of course the Taliban would hate it.


And a goodly number of normal Afghanis who would consider it offensive. Most of these folks are illiterate country folk, they react poorly to too much strangeness. One thing that provoked the uprising against the Soviet backed regime.

But when they try and take it away from their citizens, well, then you've got a shot at an uprising to throw the bastards out.


No, you don't. Everyone knows that the Taleban are ruthless motherfuckers and one reason they won is much of the country is just sick of war. The heart is not in it. You're not gonna get un uprising over something that would come off as crass attempts to shove haram stuff into the culture.


The Taliban can promise houris in heaven, but we can promise Christa Nicole on page 56. There's a lot to be said for the power of instant gratification.

Shrug, come on down to a country where folks are used to living in total deprivation.

(and yes I know this is all tongue in cheek, however it also strikes me that the joke rests on an important misunderstanding of other cultures.)

[Sue Duhnym]

Originally posted by Collounsbury
Most of these folks are illiterate country folk, they react poorly to too much strangeness.

This is one thing I don't understand.

There are, obviously, some educated people there. There have been articles I've read (no cite, Newsweek, Time, WWN or something) that have interviewed female physicians that are treating people on the sly. Teachers that are instructing little girls in different homes (roving schools) daily.

Why are these people putting up with this? I understand part may be some form of selflessness, but don't they have ONE FUCKING IOTA of self-preservation?

Love of country? Patriotism? Okay, sure...I'm sure the exiled crown princes of Greece and Italy are patriotic too, but it doens't mean they're fucking IDIOTS!

Doing it for the kids? Any rational person would take the kids and get the fuck out!

Staying for the family? If their family was that hardcore, would they have let their daughters go to school, be taught on the sly or work outside the home in the first place?

The whole thing is preposturous (sp? I've been drinking, can you tell?) and it makes me MAD! Who the fuck CARES if they're poor, destitute and hungry!

I would CRAWL through the mountains of Afghanistan NAKED, in the fucking WINTER, subsisting on SWEATY SHOE LEATHER, all the while taking it up the ass HOURLY with NO FUCKING LUBRICATION to ensure that my daughter wouldn't have to live like that.

Really.

I'm not kidding.

How can parents raise their children like that? I thought it was one of those universal laws...that parents want BETTER for their children.

It sickens me that people can be SO fucking DELUSIONAL about religion that they would feed their child cyanide-laced kool-aid (Jones Town), kidnap and starve your child nearly to DEATH because you think he's a prophet ( http://www.children-missing.org/updates/found/1013.html ) or try to resume breastfeeding MONTHS after you quit becasue your SIL had a fucking vision ( http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,243637-412,00.shtml ) that indicated you should because you were too vain!

SCHITZOPHRENICS HAVE VISIONS TOO!!! Fine, they call them paranoid delusions...but WTF is the difference? Huh?

And Bush, that little fucking weasel. I voted for his dad, TWICE!! I am ashamed that such a GAZOO made it to the presidency. How did such a weenie, nay, pussy do it?

Oh yes, I see. He went to Andover Acaaaaaaademy. Yeah, I lived 2 miles from there when I was in MA. It's a boarding school, nice and exclusive.

You can be boarded there in elementary school..it also means that YOUR PARENTS FARMED YOU OFF FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO RAISE FROM AGE SIX TO AGE 17!!!

It's downright shameful.

GAHHHH!

I need a smoke.

Fucking Republicans.

[Collounsbury]

Originally posted by Sue Duhnym
There are, obviously, some educated people there.


Most have fled. There were very few to begin with pre 1979. War and Civil war has raged from 1979 to 2000 unabated.


There have been articles I've read (no cite, Newsweek, Time, WWN or something) that have interviewed female physicians that are treating people on the sly. Teachers that are instructing little girls in different homes (roving schools) daily.


A tiny minority.

Why are these people putting up with this? I understand part may be some form of selflessness, but don't they have ONE FUCKING IOTA of self-preservation?


Perhaps they love their country?

Perhaps they can't get loved ones out?

Perhaps the unrewarding trek through landmine and bandit infested highlands to find squalid refugee camps and long, long waiting lines to get visas to other countries strikes them as unrewarding?


Love of country? Patriotism? Okay, sure...I'm sure the exiled crown princes of Greece and Italy are patriotic too, but it doens't mean they're fucking IDIOTS!


You may wish to visit a third world nation, especially one without regular and easy transit before making silly statements like this.

Or learn something about how hard it is to get a visas to come to the west, even on good refugee grounds if one is not a celebrity.


Doing it for the kids? Any rational person would take the kids and get the fuck out!


Sure, easy for you to say. It ain't like jumping in the Ford Explorer and going down to Walmart.


The whole thing is preposturous (sp? I've been drinking, can you tell?) and it makes me MAD! Who the fuck CARES if they're poor, destitute and hungry!


Ah easy rage against the victims. How very charming.

Tell me, what have you done to help them?

Have you agitated for more refugee visas for afghanis? Sent money to help the poor bastards in the camps? Or is it enough to demonize the poor bastards with nowhere to go?


I would CRAWL through the mountains of Afghanistan NAKED, in the fucking WINTER, subsisting on SWEATY SHOE LEATHER, all the while taking it up the ass HOURLY with NO FUCKING LUBRICATION to ensure that my daughter wouldn't have to live like that.


Okay, why don't you take a flight to Pakistan and put your money where your mouth is. Help out in a refugee camp. I'm sure you could hack it for all of four hours.

Of course crawling through the mountains or even sauntering is a trifle hazardous, the mines and all. Take a look at the maime rates in refugee camps in Pakistan. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, the Paki authorities also are doing their best to kick you out and back into Afghanistan.

Really fucking rewarding that.


How can parents raise their children like that? I thought it was one of those universal laws...that parents want BETTER for their children.


Aside from the fact some folks may have different ideas about what is better, a realistic idea of the challenges people face in changing the situation is in order.

I'm all for outrage, but some of the comments in this thread are just fucking stupid. Get a fucking clue people. Get a fucking clue.

[Tamerlane]

Sue Duhnym: There really isn't much intelligentsia left in Afghanistan. Some fled the Soviets. Some ( quite a few of the educated were pro-Soviet ) fled the Mujahadeen after they took power. More have fled the Taliban ( though there were damn few left by then ). And a lot have been killed over the course of the war ( which remember stretches back decades now ).

Now a few have returned. I knew one young woman a few years ago who was planning too ( she was very hopeful about The Taliban eventually easing up at that point ), but I don't know what ever became of that. But I would say that for every one who has gone back and stayed to help rebuild the country, probably 50 have died or never gone back. And this was a very primitive, backwater country to begin with - Far less sophisticated even at the time of the Soviet "invasion" than any of its neighbors.

Nope, most of the educated class, such as it were, is gone. And the people, as Collounsbury quite rightly pointed out, are utterly exhausted and desparate for peace. Probably at just about any cost. And the dominant ethnic group of Afghanistan, the Pushtoons ( corrupted to "Pathan" by the British ) or Afghans proper, have always been a very conservative people. Hill and mountain folk, deeply religious and superstitious. And almost unbelievably bellicose ( like a lot of mountain people around the world ). The Taliban is to some extent a recent phenomena, nutured by imported Saudi religious doctrine ( Wahhabi Sunnism ). But actually a lot of this crap is directly tied to old-fashioned puritannical values from hills. I very much fear that a majority of the remaining people in Afghanistan actually more or less support this turn to extreme religiosity ( if you can call it that ).

The people who don't are most likely to be the minority ethnic groups from the northern plains ( and hills ). Tajiks, Uzbek Turks, Hazaras, Arabs, and others. The areas of prime recruitment for the old government ( pro-Soviet ) army. Biut they're utnumbered, outfought, and on the run. And surrounded by hundreds of miles of not much to run to.

And in an utterly prostrate country, let's face it - This may not seem like much to a devastated people. Okay you have to wear beards if you're a man. Better than getting shot. Okay you have to wear a veil and can't work or get an education. Better than getting bombed. Okay the blew up some old statues. Whoopity-doo. Okay they're marking a few Hindus. Well it's for their own protection, right?

It's garbage. But after decades of total warfare, of a sort not even experienced in Rwanda or the Congo, you start grasping at straws. If nothing else, the Taliban HAVE provided stability for the first time since the late seventies/early eighties.

And of course the Taliban have been extraordinarily effective at monopolizing military power and stifling opposition. Even if there is a will to resist ( which their probably isn't much ), the way ain't really there.

-Tamerlane

[Tamerlane]

Man I type slow. Err...What Collounsbury said. Only minus a fuck or two :p .

- Tamerlane

[Tamerlane]

Collounsbury: Actually, if you don't mind me scolding gently, you probably shouldn't be quite so harsh. I do agree with you :) . Things aren't nearly as simple as "just pack up and leave." But heck, I can relate to the outrage as well. It really is a frustrating situation.

Have some more Bacardi ;) .

- Tamerlane

[hardcore]

I would CRAWL through the mountains of Afghanistan NAKED, in the fucking WINTER, subsisting on SWEATY SHOE LEATHER, all the while taking it up the ass HOURLY with NO FUCKING LUBRICATION to ensure that my daughter wouldn't have to live like that.
Is it wrong that in the middle of a serious discussion about the evils of the Taliban, I can become aroused by this statement?

It has to be wrong. I am so going to hell.....

[Sue Duhnym]

Collounsbury, you don't have many friends, do you?

You are the worst kind of know-it-all, you're actually right so you think that excuses your behavior. Didn't anyone ever sit you down when you were a kid and explain how no one likes a sore loser, but people despise a sore winner?

Would it have killed you to gently set me straight, a la Tamerlane? From what I've seen of you, it aparently would have.

I realize the impracticality of hopping on a plane to Pakistan to help out refugees when I have a toddler, but I resent you saying that I wouldn't last 4 hours and implying that I would (or will) do nothing other than rage against the Taliban. You know nothing about me and to suggest that I am a talker, not a doer, really upsets me.

In case you hadn't noticed, I move a LOT. I find that volunteering is one of the best ways to get to know my new neighborhood and meet new people all while giving back to the same community that has welcomed a transplant with open arms.

In Cincinnati, I was a docent at the Historical Society Museum. In Boston, my husband sat on the board of the Children's Museum and I was an active participant in fund-raisers. Here in San Jose, I've become a provisional member of a group of slightly delusional woman who, despite their elitist attitude, actually do good work.

In every aspect of my life, I'm thinking about how I can help others. My landscaper planted marigold and petunias (which I hate), I yanked them all and planted something different and donated the still living flowers to a local preschool undergoing renovations.

I wanted to throw a party in the neighborhood to get the neighbors together so I organized a poker party here at my home. We had 14 people playing poker ($10 got you $1000 worth of chips) and the winner got to choose the charity the money went to. We raised $450 for Habitat for Humanity. A paltry sum, but we had fun and it was better than losing your money to the crazy guy from across the street with the yapping dog.

I'm hurt by your response to me and I feel sad for you, that you felt the need to attack me in that way.

And this:
Sure, easy for you to say. It ain't like jumping in the Ford Explorer and going down to Walmart

was downright cruel! I would never drive a fucking Ford.

[manhattan]

Oh jeeeeezus. It's ironic that Bush would give them money to end the drug trade there when he is so obviously still using himself.

And I call myself a Republican...shoot me now and start my funeral pyre with my voter registration card. [/B]
Don’t worry about it. That article is more full of shit than a portajohn on the third day of Lollapalooza. The aid program, which started under Clinton, goes to great lengths to limit the amount of aid that goes to the Taliban to the very minimum necessary to get them to allow the delivery of the rest of the aid directly to the people.

The main component of the assistance is raw wheat, associated foodstuffs and seed, all delivered directly to end users.

Here (http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2001/index.cfm?docid=2928) is Secretary Powell announcing the renewal of the program, and Here (http://www.state.gov/p/sa/rls/rm/index.cfm?docid=2947) is a press briefing on it.

[manhattan]

Crap. The last sentence got cut off. Anyway, I was saying that you can keep your Republican registration – we could use some more of us in NYC. Just don’t show it to anyone on the upper west side! ;)

[C3]

Collounsbury, Tamerlane, or whoever else may have information: what do we do? Are there any organizations set up right now getting aid to these people? Are there any organized movements or protests aimed at getting the immigration gates opened for people from Afghanistan? Who do I send my money to, write my letters to, raise my voice to? What actions are you all taking? (I'm in no way trying to be snotty or sarcastic...I just want to know what my next step should be).


P.S. manhattan, I'd like to comment that I love that you use the word "spazzing" - brings back all sorts of happy 7th grade memories :)

[SisterCoyote]

C3, one good place to start might be RAWA (http://www.rawa.org/index.html) (I don't remember what the acronym stands for off the top of my head, sorry). The last time I was there they had pretty up to date information (and also a lot of rather gruesome film/pictures, so be careful poking around). I believe they have information on how to donate there, and may have links to other places with similar outlooks.

[jmonster]

Is anybody else completely freaked out by the fact that there is a "Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice"? I mean, damn, do they think nobody knows what this crap really means?

[Tranquilis]

Originally posted by dogsbody
C3, one good place to start might be RAWA (http://www.rawa.org/index.html).

Damn, but that's grim.

May God Have Mercy On Their Souls.

[jab1]

Originally posted by Nimune
I think we should start up round-the-clock bombings of Afghanistan. Except we don't drop bombs. We drop Britney Spears CDs, home entertainment centers, Playboy magazines, DVD players, Harry Potter novels, porno movies, satellite dishes, Furbies, you name it.Besides the fact that it wouldn't kill anybody (unless they were underneath one of the crates), I bet it would be a lot cheaper than a shooting war.

However, I think Britney Spears CDs would be a violation of the Geneva Convention.

[Collounsbury]

Well, since I have been scolded twice for being so harsh I suppose I should apologize, although I remain frustrated with the fact everytime Taleban (or similar) topics pop up people say the same thing. Blame the victim or bomb the shit out of them. I tire of such responses.

Originally posted by Sue Duhnym
Collounsbury, you don't have many friends, do you?


Sure I do, I'm a charming if irrascable bastard.


You are the worst kind of know-it-all, you're actually right so you think that excuses your behavior. Didn't anyone ever sit you down when you were a kid and explain how no one likes a sore loser, but people despise a sore winner?


True, true. I am a bad person.


Would it have killed you to gently set me straight, a la Tamerlane? From what I've seen of you, it aparently would have.


No, but this is the pit after all and Tamerlane's reasonable post wasn't as entertaining to me, personally.


However in re the other question, assistance I might suggest contacting (although I confess being more up on Sudan than Afghanistan):

(a) The State Department's Bureau for Refugees to request updated information in re US programs:

2401 E St. NW Suite L505 Washington, D.C. 20522-0105 Telephone (202) 663-3952 Fax (202) 663-1530


(b) UNICEF is usually a reliable choice for basic work,
http://www.unicef.org/
To make direct donations:
http://www.supportunicef.org/forms/whichcountry2.html
or more directly for most
https://secure09.client-mail.com/cfirstlink/forms/supportform_us.htm (United States) (whose fund site generally is http://www.unicefusa.org/alert/index.html )

(c) UNHCR also recieves and needs private help:
http://www.unhcr.ch/youhelp/youhelp.htm
however, potentially more useful is this document
http://www.unhcr.ch/fdrs/ga2001/afg.pdf
which also notes UNHCR's partner organizations to whom you may give.

(d) consulting Relief Web can give you an idea of who seems to be achieving something:
See, e.g. http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/vID/C8F4141890FF2FE0C1256A50004AB114?OpenDocument

Also in re Unicef, http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/vID/C2E5AE307A8EAA0585256A490057D362?OpenDocument

In regards to refugee issues, I don't know where you are located. If the USA, please write to the current members of the Senate and House members of the immigration committees. The proper names escape me presently but you can get this off the web. I spent several years doing this after the 1996 immigration 'reform' act, it can have an effect. I long volunteered, back when I was in the USA, with organizations like LCHR, Human Rights Watch. LCHR is more action oriented and provides direct legal services for free to political refugees. So does the ACLU I think.

I recall that http://www.irsa-uscr.org/ was useful but have not had contact with this in some time. I've been away for a while so I'm afraid this is all I have.

For myself, I've tried to put a finger into Sudanese issues given my proximity, but that's not relevant here.

[Manda JO]

Sue, I think the reason Collounsbury got so abrasive is that your post implied-though I am sure that you didn't mean to--that those Afganis don't love thier kids as much as you do, since they aren't willing to suffer for thier kids in the way that you are willing to suffer. Considering the incredible trials that they have faced over the last thirty years, and the incredible luxury that we all share here in the developed world, that comes across as a little condecending and a little naive. Afgani mothers love their daughters, and after assessing the situation--having access to much knowledge we don't have--and have made the best choices they can see. That those choices seem incomprehensible to us is simply becasue the entire situation is incomprehensible to us.

[Eve]

"May God Have Mercy On Their Souls."

Yeah. That's gonna happen. Reminds me of one of the many bombing attacks on Israel, when an Israeli was interviewed and said, "We are going to stay here—God will protect us," and I couldn't help going over God's track record at "protecting Jews" in my mind . . .

[Tranquilis]

Originally posted by Eve
"May God Have Mercy On Their Souls."

Yeah. That's gonna happen...

I wasn't refering to the victims, but to the Taliban. "May God Have Mercy..." is the traditional last line of a death sentence. They'll need all the mercy there is, because I'm reasonably sure they're up for a long stint in a particularly nasty corner of Hell.

God will, I believe, have mercy and love for the souls of the victims of the Taliban in the next world, but that doesn't mean that they'll be spared the Hell On Earth of Taliban rule in this world.

[Collounsbury]

Yes, Manda Joe has rather captured my reaction, which is not to escuse a certain meanness. However long experience working outside of the developed world has bred immense immpatience (okay, I'm not a patient man at all) in re people making snap judgements. I'm not going to make a fake apology but I do regret the tone.

But most of all I hope people will think about the very real consequences of American policy in re refugees and the immense, I would say heart-rending difficulties refugees face in getting out of... hell.

[Broomstick]

Originally posted by Heloise
—I know it's all to easy to refer to any group your don't like as Nazis ("feminazis," "anti-smoking Nazis"); but in this casew the comparison fairly whacks you over the head with a rubber chicken.

I just wonder if/when someone will intervene. How many atrocities must take place in what amount of time before someone does something?

Actually, I think the unwritten rule these days is that a government can do anything to its own population it wants - it's only when a government spills over its border and starts messing with other folks that anyone gets concerned enough to maybe do something about it.

[Lemur866]

Broomstick, you say that like it's a BAD thing. The fact is, we can't invade every country that engages in human rights abuses. Even if it were justified some of the time, it would eventually become a mere fig leaf. I mean, invaders through the years have always used that excuse.

Human rights abuses are not an act of war. Sometimes we can do something about human rights abuses. Sometimes we can't. Afghanistan is a case where we really can't do much, except give humanitarian aid to the millions of refugees.

Also, according to the news reports, Afghanistan is going to suffer a crop failure this year, due to drought. Mass starvation is likely. Whether that strengthens or weakens the Taliban remains to be seen.

Oh, could anyone visit the GD Taliban thread and explain to Morrison that the US did NOT support the Taliban against the Soviets? Since the Taliban was set up in exile in Pakistan and only took over the country from the various warlords we did support AFTER the Soviets left?

[Eve]

Today's new flash—

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Afghanistan's Taliban militia has ordered all female aid workers working in the war-ravaged Central Asian country to refrain from driving, saying it is "against Afghan traditions."

—Ummm, I am not too familiar with whatever religious text the Taliban uses (the Koran?). But does it really outline who can and cannot drive CARS?

[Tranquilis]

Originally posted by Eve
Today's new flash—

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Afghanistan's Taliban militia has ordered all female aid workers working in the war-ravaged Central Asian country to refrain from driving, saying it is "against Afghan traditions."

—Ummm, I am not too familiar with whatever religious text the Taliban uses (the Koran?). But does it really outline who can and cannot drive CARS?

It's not against the Koran, but against Afghan traditions... That way they don't have to justify it to the rest of Islam. Which is pretty chicken-shit, if you ask me.