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Eve
06-13-2001, 01:43 PM
I was going to put this in the Pit under “Groucho Marx, You Sonofabitch,” but decided to take the high road.

I’ve been doing some research on my favorite dowager, the great Margaret Dumont (1889–1965). She appeared in some 50 movies between 1917 and 1964, only seven of them with the Marx Brothers (she was also straight woman to W.C. Fields, Betty Grable, Wheeler and Woolsey, Laurel and Hardy, Jack Benny and others). But what do I read in every recent article and web bio on her? This is from IMDB: “By all accounts she never understood [the Marx Brothers’] jokes (offscreen and on), which is of course a major reason why she's so funny.”

To coin a phrase, balderdash and poppycock! That’s like saying Gracie Allen really didn’t know what she was saying to George, and just as unfair. Groucho Marx was a great comic, but he was also a mean-spirited bastard who hated women, and he was always giving out interviews saying Margaret Dumont didn’t know what was going on. I have old newspaper interviews with her where she explains in great detail the art of being a straight woman (being a Real-Life Dowager, she didn’t like the word “stooge”). How to hold for a laugh, how to react differently to different kinds of comics, how to pace differently for films and the stage. She was a professional and a great, under-rated talent, and the Queen of all us Incipient Appalled Dowagers.

—[glaring haughtily through my lorgnette at Groucho]

[Mod Note Please note this thread is from 2001]

Fiver
06-13-2001, 03:22 PM
Ahh, Groucho had his faults but I'll cut him some slack in this case. Clearly he understood that it's funnier for us to imagine that Margaret really didn't get it; that she could have made A Night at the Opera (http://us.imdb.com/Details?0026778) or Duck Soup (http://us.imdb.com/Details?0023969) thinking they were really dramas, or mysteries, or whatever.

Of course Tommy Smothers isn't really naive, Gracie Allen wasn't really a ditz, and Margaret Dumont was as much of a kidder as the Marx Trinity.

I bet Margaret was a wildcat in the sack, too.

dropzone
06-13-2001, 03:46 PM
Of course she got it. Watch the dinner scene at the beginning of "Opera" and she's barely holding it together.

Crunchy Frog
06-13-2001, 06:07 PM
I'm a huge fan of the Marx Brothers, and as such, have become a fan of Dumont's. Her reactions made the Bros. antics that much funnier, the true talent of the straight-man (woman) showing itself: making the scene funnier without necessarily doing anything funny.

DAVEW0071
06-13-2001, 06:36 PM
Groucho may have done Margaret Dumont a disservice by fabricating the story that she didn't understand the jokes. But at the same time he made no bones about the fact that she was a magnificent straight woman, a class act and just as much a part of the Marx Brothers's success as any of them (more than Zeppo, now that I think of it).

For my part, Margaret Dumont was a celestial presence on the screen, and the perfect foil for the zaniness going on around her. Obviously, just looking at the list of legendary comedians she worked with, her value was recognized by the best in the business.

She was wonderful.

teela brown
06-13-2001, 07:20 PM
I just got a glimpse of her in a Jean Harlow movie, the name of which escapes me right now, but Eve will know which one it was. She played a snooty society dowager who stood up to hiss Jean Harlow as JH was onstage trying to make her comeback after a suicide scandal (way too similar to JH's own life). MD was only on for a second, but I yelled out "Margaret Dumont!" and made Mr. Pug jump out of his skin.

I also thought she was a class act, and an irreplaceable foil for Groucho.

Redboss
06-14-2001, 03:13 AM
She was an exceptional talent. Thanks for mentioning her, Eve

Less happily, many of my friends tell me that I resemble her. When pressed for details they are always evasive.

Well, really!

Redboss

screech-owl
06-14-2001, 05:18 AM
I always liked Margaret Dumont better than than the Marx Brothers: I wanted to be a well-heeled society matron when I grew up. And (sigh) I am starting to look like her, though without the benefit of society.

Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
06-14-2001, 07:12 AM
Another cherished belief destroyed. Next we'll probably find out that Symona Boniface was a wild party gal, or that Edna Mae Oliver was actually made up to look like the cartoon charicatures of her, and that she was actually very attractive in real life.

Eve
06-14-2001, 08:39 AM
That was "Reckless," Pug. Margaret Dumont was a freelancer, so she had to take bit parts in between supporting roles. She was flat broke at the end, bless her little cotton socks.

OK, I rooted through my files last night and found a newspaper interview she gave in the 1940s. "Many a comedian's lines have been lost on the screen because the laughter overlapped. Scriptwriters build up to a laugh, but they don't allow any pause for it. That's where I come in. I ad lib—it doesn't matter what I say—just to kill a few seconds so you can enjoy the gag. I have to sense when the big laughs will come and fill in, or the audience will drown out the next gag wiuth its own laughter . . . I'm not a stooge. I'm a straight lady . . . There's an art to playing straight. You must build up your man, but never top him, never steal the laughs from him."

Take THAT, Groucho and IMDB! No wonder the great ones hired her; they wanted the best! I aspire to Margaret Dumonthood. I must develop a monobosom to drape pearls over, and practice glaring through lorgnettes going, "Well, REALLY."

rocking chair
06-14-2001, 09:08 AM
who says there aren't any role models anymore?

yes, comics are funny, just like pictures are pretty. the straight person enhances the comic, like a frame will enhance a picture. you need them both for a complete product.

Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
06-14-2001, 11:02 AM
Hey, Eve, if you happen to check back in--if you give a source for the interview (in which she denies being clueless about comedy), I'll be happy to contribute that info to the IMDB, assuming someone else doesn't beat me to it.

Eve
06-14-2001, 11:18 AM
Mjollnir—Unfortunately, it's an undated, unbylined piece from her Lincoln Center clippings file. It was syndicated by World Wide Features, though, c1940.

If I EVER finish the book I'm working on, I'd like to do a magazine piece on her . . .

aseymayo
06-14-2001, 01:06 PM
Hail, Hail Feedonia!

Okay, I'll stop - quit throwing things!

I think you're being a wee bit hard on Groucho. I've always understood his remark that "Margaret never got the jokes" to mean "Margaret never thought we were funny" - which made her the perfect foil. I don't believe he meant to slight her or imply she was stupid - from what I've read in his books and others, he loved her dearly.

Now, if you want to go after Fred Astaire, I'm with you. He was a right bastard to Ginger Rogers. He was the great "artist" while she was merely a somewhat talented nitwit. Faugh. Stuff it, Fred - she could do everything you could, backwards and in high heels!

RealityChuck
06-14-2001, 06:28 PM
Stuff it, Fred - she could do everything you could, backwards and in high heels!

With Fred guiding her every step of the way.

Frankly, I'm tired of that cliche, which implies Ginger was as good a dancer as Fred. She was not. People didn't go to see her dance without Fred -- but they'd watch Fred dance with a coat tree.

Now, admittedly, Fred was something of a bastard. But he was still the better dancer.

I also believe Groucho's "She never got the jokes" was meant ironically. There does seem to be evidence that she did not understand some of the lines (especially the more risque ones). And no one has mentioned that Dumont was bald.

aseymayo
06-15-2001, 12:25 AM
With Fred guiding her every step of the way.

Sure, but he was just following the steps Hermes Pan drew on the floor for him.

Fred may have been the more innovative when it came to routines, but Ginger was every bit as good at executing them, whether in high heels or on roller skates. She was a wonderful dancer - she also sang better than Fred, was a better actor than Fred (she won an Academy Award for Best Actress in 1940; his was "honorary") and she had better legs.

The truth is, the movie-going public didn't want to see Fred dance quite as much if he was with a different partner, so he grudgingly partnered with Ginger. I think he knew competition when he saw it, resented her for it, treated her badly and fostered the notion that she was merely an actress who could dance a little and looked good in feathers.

And as for Dumont being bald, well, Groucho didn't have a real moustache then, either. So there.

Redboss
06-15-2001, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by aseymayo
[Ginger Rogers] was a better actor than Fred (she won an Academy Award for Best Actress in 1940; his was "honorary") and she had better legs. [/B]

She was also a better actor than Garbo, was she? But only half as good as Elizabeth Taylor. Or Luise Rainer.

Oscar doesn't necessarily go to live with the best, I'm afraid.

Why, [sudden gigantic effort to avoid claim of hijacking] even Margaret Dumont never won an Academy Award !

whew!


Redboscar

RealityChuck
06-15-2001, 07:47 AM
Fred may have been the more innovative when it came to routines, but Ginger was every bit as good at executing them, whether in high heels or on roller skates. She was a wonderful dancer - she also sang better than Fred, was a better actor than Fred (she won an Academy Award for Best Actress in 1940; his was "honorary") and she had better legs.

She didn't sing better than Fred, who was one of the most influentual singers in the movies. The top songwriters fought to have Astaire sing their work, since his singing very often turned their songs into hits.

As far as acting, the Oscar is hardly a good demonstration. If you do count awards (both nominations and wins), Fred's score is 1 Oscar nomination; three Golden Globe nominations (2 wins), 1 Laurel Award nomination, 1 British Academy award, plus honorary awards from the Oscars, the Golden Globes, the American Film Institute, the Berlin International Film Festival, and the Film Society of Lincoln Center. Ginger, OTOH, had one Oscar and one Berlin International Film Festival (honorary) award. Also note that Fred started getting nominated for awards when he stopped dancing -- the type of roles he was cast before that were not the type that get award nominations.

Remember, too, that the Rogers/Astaire movies always had a number of two for Fred alone; they never had anything for Ginger alone. She was certainly a competent dancer, but not on Fred's level (an unfair comparision -- no one was on Fred's level) or as good as other Astaire parners like Judy Garland, Eleanor Powell, or Cyd Charisse.

Ginger was a fine comic actress, of course. And she did have better legs.

Ukulele Ike
06-15-2001, 08:04 AM
{throws hijackery caution to the winds}

And how about that Boris Karloff? Where's HIS damn Oscar? I thought he did an excellent job in [i]The Body Snatchers.

Fiver
06-15-2001, 08:21 AM
I'm trying and trying, and I just can't see how Ms. Dumont's alopecia is relevant in a thread about her knowingness as a straight woman.

I love Ginger Rogers, but I thought the dancing Fred Astaire did with Rita Hayworth in, uh, one of the two movies they made together (I don't recall which one I've seen) was easily on a par with everything he did with Ginger.

plnnr
06-15-2001, 08:24 AM
Groucho was gracious enough to acknowledge Margaret Dumont during his acceptance of the honorary Academy Awarded presented to him in the early 1970s. IIRC he thanked the Academy and said that he wished his brothers were there to accept it with him. He then added that he wished that "Margaret Dumont was here, too."

"Monobosom" - that's rich.

Eve
06-15-2001, 08:31 AM
"And no one has mentioned that Dumont was bald."

—Yeah, yeah, this was another goodie Groucho used to throw out at interviews. Not that I care if she was bald or not, but it's another example of what a mean-spirited bastard Groucho was. He REPEATEDLY said in interviews and to biographers that Margaret Dumont was clueless and didn't know what was going on. This is the same guy who mistreated his wives, daughters and other female costars, so I think he had a wee bit of a problem . . .

Now. Ginger Rogers. Of COURSE Fred was a better dancer, but people did indeed go to see musicals she made without him: remember "42nd Street," "Gold Diggers of 1933," "In Person," "Roxie Hart" . . . OK, no one went to see "Lady in the Dark," because it sucked, but . . . I may also add that Ginge' won an Oscar for ACTING, which Fred never did.

aseymayo
06-15-2001, 05:25 PM
She didn't sing better than Fred...

Didn't sing better than Fred?!? Didn't sing better than Fred?!? Oh, yeah?

Quickly shuffling through record collection. Now where's that album of "Kitty Foyle Sings the Blues"? I know it was here somewhere. What's this? "Duets - Hermione Gingold and Bob Dylan"?? No, that's not it. What's this double album? "Fred Astaire's Greatest Hi..." Ooops, forgot I owned that.

Okay, have it your way - but I'm right she had better legs!

And Uke, Peter Lorre was a much better dancer than Karloff! Karloff couldn't pirouette to save his life.

Cartooniverse
06-15-2001, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by aseymayo
And Uke, Peter Lorre was a much better dancer than Karloff! Karloff couldn't pirouette to save his life.

This is beyond dispute. However, the tense rivalry between Joseph Cotton and Charles Boyer is the stuff of Hollywood legend !!! Stories abound recounting the filming of Gaslight, and the frenzied Charleston contests the men would get into, whilst off in her chair sat Ingrid Bergman, cool and day-bone-aye as always.

Hey, I had to go there :D :D

Originally Posted by Eve :: She was a professional and a great, under-rated talent, and the Queen of all us Incipient Appalled Dowagers.

—[glaring haughtily through my lorgnette at Groucho]

<------cackling here. Ahhh, Eve. First of all, please dear, what IS a lorgnette??? Second of all, how would I look in one? Third of all? That is without DOUBT the best damned new Sig Line of the week. I can see it now... ...Eve- Queen of Incipient Appalled Dowagers

You are the best. When's that book party???? I'll bake for it !

Cartooniverse, who misses the rem jet layer that made "M" glow in such a surreal way.

TV time
06-15-2001, 05:54 PM
Somehow this thread seems to have become a Marx Brothers routine. Astaire and Rogers going one direction, Lorre and Karloff going yet another. Groucho, Zeppo (or Gummo), Chico and Harpo in and out of it all and of course and the great lady at the center.

It's the perfect salute to Margaret Dumont.

I think the perfect memory of the lady is from perhaps the best comedic scene in film history. The "stateroom" scene from Night at the Opera ends with the four brothers at Dumont's feet.

TV

Katisha
06-15-2001, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Cartooniverse
[BFirst of all, please dear, what IS a lorgnette??? [/B]

Also known as "glasses on a stick." :D

And Margaret Dumont kicks ass. That is all.

DAVEW0071
06-15-2001, 07:38 PM
I think the perfect memory of the lady is from perhaps the best comedic scene in film history. The "stateroom" scene from Night at the Opera ends with the four brothers at Dumont's feet.

Well, you're 3/4 correct. Actually, Zeppo's swan song was Duck Soup. It was Allan Jones who played the juvenile in Opera. Opposite Kitty Carlisle.

RTFirefly
06-15-2001, 09:22 PM
"Your eyes, your eyes, they shine like the pants of a blue serge suit. That's not a reflection on you, it's on the pants."

Eve
06-18-2001, 08:41 AM
"Your eyes, your eyes, they shine like the pants of a blue serge suit. That's not a reflection on you, it's on the pants."

—Oh, Professor FIREfly!

Ukulele Ike
06-18-2001, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Eve
—Oh, Professor FIREfly!

That would be PRESIDENT Firefly, as in Rufus T. Firefly, President of Freedonia (Duck Soup, 1933).

PROFESSOR would be Professor Quincey Adams Wagstaff (Horse Feathers, 1932).

Eve
06-18-2001, 08:58 AM
. . . And why aren't you in the bathroom holding Lupe Velez's head under? . . .

PieCatLady
02-21-2015, 11:01 AM
Margaret Dumont was so necessary in the Marx Brothers films, the perfect foil for Groucho, enabling his humor with her stalwart persona. He wouldn't have been so funny without her! When I was a young viewer, I thought she was beautiful - and only a little bit silly, with her exaggerated poise and manners. I still think so. The other fans must be watching her movies - surely there are many many admirers out there.

Annie-Xmas
02-21-2015, 11:46 AM
A 13 1/2 year old zombie? Started by Eve?

Count Blucher
02-21-2015, 11:56 AM
Margaret Dumont was so necessary in the Marx Brothers films, the perfect foil for Groucho, enabling his humor with her stalwart persona. He wouldn't have been so funny without her! When I was a young viewer, I thought she was beautiful - and only a little bit silly, with her exaggerated poise and manners. I still think so. The other fans must be watching her movies - surely there are many many admirers out there.

I think she was smart, I think she was in on the joke, and I have no doubt that Groucho was a Sonofabitch. But... I think that this was put forth as PR for the sake of the business of entertaining and making money from the public.

Lets imagine its the 1930s and people are poor and desperate, in need of some form of escape. They still read/buy papers (news & jobs) and they may go to movies. Lets say you create a comedy routine based on poorer people taking on and getting over
on the rich and entitled class. Its a popular subject given the audience is poor... so much so that even scenes of people eating a full plate of food are immensely popular.
The Marx Brothers know and do their part and Margaret Dumont knows and does hers (you'd HAVE to in order to turn in a quality performance).

The effect is magic, and people buy tickets... but because it Is magic, do you tell the public the secret behind the trick? No Way! That would be like saying,
"Hi! We're the smart people in the room, we're better than you in the audience and we've been So Happy to take your money. Suckers...!"
If you alienate your base by making them the idiots of the play, they won't buy tickets.

But... if as a publicity and business matter you agree from the start to say that talented straight woman Margaret Dumont actually "doesn't get it" then you maintain the suspension of disbelief and you make people feel smarter than her, laugh,
and want to go back to buy tickets to see the show again and again. Yes, there were smart people who read the papers, but the majority of the circulation wasn't geared towards them. Interviews and newspaper articles were geared towards generating
and maintaining both ticket sales and newspaper sales back then.

Being straight person probably was (and probably is) a Truly Sucky Thankless Job, and there probably aren't enough zeroes on the check to cover the crap they go through both on and off set.
Do I think that Margaret Dumont was a genius who held up her end of comedy magic? Of Course, and an under appreciated one at that.

IvoryTowerDenizen
02-21-2015, 12:39 PM
I'll move this over to Cafe Society, but please note that this thread is from 2001, so many of the posters aren't around to comment back if you quote them. I've put a mod note in the OP to let people know it's from 2001.

Exapno Mapcase
02-21-2015, 01:29 PM
People only know her from the movies, but she was with the Brothers starting on Broadway, in The Cocoanuts 1925 (and its 1927 revival) and Animal Crackers. Those were her first movie roles as well (other than non-credited silents and shorts). She spent a full decade working with them.

This online article (http://chiseler.org/post/27840480826/it-simply-isnt-done-margaret-dumont) talks about her not getting the jokes. Apparently Maureen O’Sullivan said it as well as Groucho, but the writer has well-founded doubts about how you could read the script of A Day at the Races and believe it was a serious drama.

More interesting are the pictures he dug up of a younger and prettier Dumont. She was eight years older than Groucho and Hollywood had no place for older women to look anything other than matronly. She was the same age in Duck Soup as Mariska Hargitay, Elle Macpherson, Vanessa Williams, and Helen Hunt are today. She had also been married to a true high society figure and never really recovered from his death or her need to go back to show business for money.

Show business has scores of people who lead delusional lives offscreen, and Dumont may well have been one of them. Still, the Brothers were consummate professionals and nobody else lasted longer with them. That should say something right there. They wouldn't have put with a clueless stooge for a decade. Neither would W. C. Fields or the other top comics who wanted her. Groucho was cruel and bitter, but he also realized he had created a persona that made people want to hear insults from him, all the time. He was happy to oblige. I don't think we'll ever know more.

Rocketeer
02-21-2015, 07:13 PM
Young Margaret, radiantly beautiful. (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z256/hilbyf/margaret-dumont_zps0cdc1b8a.png)

HyacinthBucket
02-22-2015, 10:30 AM
... She was a professional and a great, under-rated talent, and the Queen of all us Incipient Appalled Dowagers.

—[glaring haughtily through my lorgnette at Groucho]

[Mod Note Please note this thread is from 2001]

Yes, yes, but did she have a white slimline telephone with last number redial? Or a set of Royal Doulton with hand-painted periwinkles?


Hyacinth Bucket
The CURRENT Queen of all Incipient Appalled Dowagers

Slithy Tove
02-22-2015, 10:35 AM
Cixi. Now there was a dowager. When she got apalled, heads really rolled

FriarTed
02-22-2015, 10:35 AM
Young Margaret, radiantly beautiful. (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z256/hilbyf/margaret-dumont_zps0cdc1b8a.png)

Who else is thinking "Christina Ricci!"?

terentii
02-22-2015, 10:51 AM
Who else is thinking "Christina Ricci!"?

HOT Wednesday Addams! :eek: :D

Exapno Mapcase
02-22-2015, 11:01 AM
Young Margaret, radiantly beautiful. (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z256/hilbyf/margaret-dumont_zps0cdc1b8a.png)

Young Margaret, my foot. The clothes and hair mark that as a picture from the late 1920s, when Dumont was in her 40s, as shown by the pictures in the site I linked to.

Sampiro
02-22-2015, 11:30 AM
Since YouTube was not in existence when the OP was written (though the Twin Towers were), i'll post this year.
In February 1965, 35 years after the film version of Animal Crackers , Groucho and Dumont reunited at the Hollywood Bowl to perform that movie's most famous number, "Hooray For Captain Spaulding". Here it is:
http://youtu.be/xlWQqFB4ECI

Margaret Dumont died one week later.

Exapno Mapcase
02-22-2015, 04:29 PM
Since YouTube was not in existence when the OP was written (though the Twin Towers were), i'll post this year.
In February 1965, 35 years after the film version of Animal Crackers , Groucho and Dumont reunited at the Hollywood Bowl to perform that movie's most famous number, "Hooray For Captain Spaulding". Here it is:
http://youtu.be/xlWQqFB4ECI

Margaret Dumont died one week later.

The article I linked to has this to say:
On February 26, 1965, Dumont recreated a scene from Animal Crackers on TV with Groucho. She died eight days later at the age of 82. On that broadcast, Dumont is as formidable as ever, clearly pleased when the audience applauds her, and nervously mirthful when Groucho ad-libs, “Don’t step on those few laughs I have.” Interestingly, she tries something new here, a delayed reaction to his dirty joke about native girls “developing,” as if she considers the joke for a moment and then thinks, “Ah, now I get that one!” Was this a choice, or was she finally getting this joke after thirty-five years?

It seems clear when he chastises her for stepping on his lines in that final teaming that Groucho was toughly in charge and she was under his thumb professionally. In his Cavett interview, Groucho ungenerously sneered at Dumont’s behavior back stage at that last taping, sitting in her dressing room “as if she was still a big star,” and holding roses “that she probably bought herself.” Practically any other show business figure would have said a few kind words about an indispensable partner on her very last legs, but Groucho chose to hurl a few more insults at her when she could no longer hear them. Maybe that was his way of showing that he loved her.

Sampiro
02-22-2015, 06:44 PM
Young Margaret, my foot. The clothes and hair mark that as a picture from the late 1920s, when Dumont was in her 40s, as shown by the pictures in the site I linked to.

I have it from a very reliable source that the picture is Sylvia Sydney circa 1931.

Sampiro
02-22-2015, 07:04 PM
Here's the Dick Cavett interview (http://youtu.be/VckmK-ZCpAU) referenced in that article. His comments about Margaret Dumont begin around 43:00.

Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
02-22-2015, 09:10 PM
I have it from a very reliable source that the picture is Sylvia Sydney circa 1931.A quick stroll thru Google Images seems to confirm that.

Exapno Mapcase
02-22-2015, 09:48 PM
Silvia Sidney

You don't need to know who Sidney was to see that the woman in that photo is tiny. Sidney was in fact a tiny, fragile beauty, about 5'2". Dumont was statuesque and large-framed and towers over Groucho in every scene because she was about 5'9" without heels. How can you see that picture and think of Margaret Dumont?

Rocketeer
02-23-2015, 02:56 PM
Okay, I guess I was wrong.

How about a charming grin instead? (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/787/545/320/marx4.jpg)

ElvisL1ves
02-23-2015, 02:58 PM
Dumont was statuesque and large-framed and towers over Groucho in every scene because she was about 5'9" without heels.I can see you bending over the stove. I can't see the stove.

Irishman
02-25-2015, 02:24 AM
Silvia Sidney

You don't need to know who Sidney was to see that the woman in that photo is tiny. Sidney was in fact a tiny, fragile beauty, about 5'2". Dumont was statuesque and large-framed and towers over Groucho in every scene because she was about 5'9" without heels. How can you see that picture and think of Margaret Dumont?


I'm not sure how you can tell height or size from a picture with no other objects for reference.

Now I will agree you shouldn't be able to look at that picture and think it resembles Margaret Dumont at all, but not based on the size of the person. Think shape of the chin, in particular.

Musicat
03-01-2015, 11:22 AM
Silvia Sidney

You don't need to know who Sidney was to see that the woman in that photo is tiny. Sidney was in fact a tiny, fragile beauty, about 5'2". Dumont was statuesque and large-framed and towers over Groucho in every scene because she was about 5'9" without heels. How can you see that picture and think of Margaret Dumont?Because 40 years never adds pounds, spreads statues, nor enlarges frames?