Star Trek: How lousy ARE their military tactics?

[SPOOFE]

Here's a couple of simple facts of war: Fire when you see the whites of their eyes, and don't stop firing 'til they're dead.

So how come our friends of the Federation can't do that?

It's a common occurence... an enemy ship appears out of nowhere (gee, I thought they had sensors to detect an enemy lightyears away), the enemy ship fires several times (damaging the ship, even though it doesn't penetrate the shields), and then zooms off. The Fed ship just sits there like a rock.

If this were a modern-day naval excercise, everyone on that vessels' bridge would be demoted to scrubbing the warp core.

What is so difficult about the simplest of war tactics? You activate the phasers, press the "fire" button, and DON'T LET GO until the target is blown to smithereens!! Is it that difficult a concept to understand?!?

Now, look... I generally like the series... but I CRINGE every time I see the Enterprise (or whatever) take six blasts from a hostile ship, and then return fire with a single blast or two from their own phaser banks. Are all these people conducting their space battles while smoking pot or something?

Worf: "Hey, someone's shooting us!"
Picard: "Heh... that's funny... uh... shoot back or somethin'..."
Worf: "Hehehehehe... you shoot 'em back! Hehehehehe... damn, I'm fucking stoned..."
Picard: "No, you shoot 'em... I'm staring at my lava lamp..."

Oy.

All right, so, everyone... what do you think is lousy about the Federation's seeming inability to conduct intelligent space warefare?

[glee]

I think it's a good point of the series that they try negotiating as much as possible.

But you're right - why isn't this highly trained crew much more alert? (I'd make them warp the scrub core myself).

I remember one 1st series Star Trek where Kirk used a nebula (or similar) to provide cover from the enemy sensors. That was good tactics.

[kasuo]

Yeah, I have to agree with you on this. They definitely seem to just sit around and keep hailing an enemy ship about 50 times before they realize they are not welcomed.

A couple things I noticed about Federation military tactics:

1. Warships - They don't have any! What's up with that? Other than the Defiant, they don't have anything that can really pound on hostile intruders like the Borg or the Dominion. I don't buy the notion that they don't have anything with large firepower to combat enemies. I mean, the Federation has had its share of wars with the Klingons, Cardassians and the Dominion. Through all those wars, the Federation should've come up with something decent.

2. Fighters - I remember the first instance of fighters being used in DS9 against Gem Hadar (sp?) fighters but other than that, I never even remember seeing any in action. I figure that it's not always necessary to have large ships (frigates, destroyers, carriers) directly fighting each other. I mean, sometimes it seems more advantageous to have a slew of small fighters attacking large ships. Also, I don't really consider shuttlecraft or runabouts to be much help since they seem to lack any sort of firepower or good speed.

3. Planetary defenses - Are there any around worth noting? Even a society as large as the Federation should have some decent system of defense satellites or platforms to defend against hostiles. I believe there was mention of a planetary defense around Mars when the Borg assimilated Picard and almost made it to Earth. Having just a bunch of science vessels roaming around the stars won't really do much when you have an aggressive species or two knocking at your doorstep.

4. Standing army - There really isn't much on this since conflicts on the surfaces of planets is not brought up as much on the series. There was an instance where a group of Federation crew members were kept at a position for a long time and were agitated or something (TNG or DS9?). But I don't think you can fight wars of attrition while wearing your usual red/yellow/blue uniform on the battlefield. However, I noticed in the first-person shooter game Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force, they actually had some interesting ideas. First off, the members were all fitted with personal shields that deflected some shots as well as scramble transporter beams. They also had miniature replicators so they wouldn't have to carry a lot of bulky equipment. Man, that's just friggin dope! Why couldn't they have done that during any of the series?

Well enough of my crazed typing, it's already 4:00AM in my area and I should hit the proverbial sack.

[Shortie]

Random facts:
In one episode they fire phasers from 3 million or so.
In TOS they could fire from warp at stationary ships, and they have also been able to fire torpedoes at warp more recently.
They show random super weapons at regular intervals (Genesis device, trilithium torps, phase cloaks, etc, etc), but always forget about them or lose them by next week.

But virtually every time we see them fight they march up to visual range, and blaze away at each other. The attacks by the Klingons on DS9 are a pretty good example.

As to ground troops... they've forgotten minor points like weapons that can be aimed, weapons that can use sustained or indirect fire, use of cover, choke points, etc, etc. Phasers on wide-beam -> great close-quarters weapon right? Shame it's been used once ever.

And they're really scared of enemies that think throwing your guns away and hitting people is a good plan, or walking slowly towards them without any ranged weapons at all.

The theoretical reason is that the UFP are mostly pacifist, and Starfleet is not a true military organisation. (What that says about all the enemies they've beaten is another matter)
The actual reason is the writers of course, but that's life.

[KneadToKnow]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
If this were a modern-day naval excercise, everyone on that vessels' bridge would be demoted to scrubbing the warp core.

Modern-day naval vessels have warp cores? COOL!

:D

[Enderw24]

Spoofe, you don't need to fire right away when you're a galaxy class ship and all your torpedos blow up the enemy in one shot. While they're firing on you, you've got the time to flip through that episode's screenplay and figure out on exactly what page you get a chance to retaliate.

Seriously, take a look at Generations for a perfect example.
The Klingon female, Lursa (?), found a way to bypass their shields.
"Fire at will!" she screamed. The enterprise was defenseless and, indeed, they did. Hull breach on levels 14-16 (isn't that always the way? Damn I'd hate to be living on those levels), sparks flying across the bridge with humans chasing right after them. Mass hysteria.
And another shot. And another shot. Enterprise can't do a thing about it.

Finally "hey, if we hook up the mass spector invecting coils to the plasma relay gamma...cripes, even I can't make up technobabble...just fire!"

One torpedo. Blam! There go the enemy. Oh, and while the torpedo is being launched, the Klingons, all mighty and fierce warriors that they are, just sit there watching it come in.

And don't get me started on the warp engines. I mean, speaking of the Navy, has no one ever heard of tacking? CHANGE COURSE WHILE IN WARP SPEED AND NO ONE CAN FOLLOW YOU!

That really needed to be said.

[drewbert]

Originally posted by Enderw24
"Fire at will!" she screamed.

B'Etor: Stop being silly, Lursa! Of course I'm firing at Will! I'm also firing at Jean-Luc, Deanna, Beverley, and Geordi!

(sorry, I never can resist when I hear that on TNG)

[kanicbird]

Fire when you see the whites of their eyes, and don't stop firing 'til they're dead.


This was a tatic used when the American forces were very low on supplies (ammo and guns). This caused the most dammage for what they had.

IMHO The whole potilical structure of Startrek has been geared towards representing a liberials utopian society (excluding TOS). Kind of how they presently view the UN today.

Sometimes they don't fire because the enemey is no threat, but other times they risk their lives and the technology of their ships trying to communicate while getting hammered- not very realistic.

Voyager has been torn apart so many times I would be supprized if any part of that ship is still OEM. That's somewhat a diffrent situation though as they are truly F&@$ed in a ship that is in no way made for the trip.

[Orbifold]

Originally posted by kasuo
1. Warships - They don't have any! What's up with that? Other than the Defiant, they don't have anything that can really pound on hostile intruders like the Borg or the Dominion.

The Defiant wasn't the only ship of it's type, you realize. After the first Borg invasion, someone at Starfleet R&D said "Aw, crap!" and designed the class of warships of which the Defiant was the prototype. The Defiant was the only one operating when the Dominion first appeared, but by the end of that series there were other ships of that class fighting in the war.

Then there was that wacky three-in-one ship, the Prometheus, from the Voyager episode "Message in a Bottle", which looked an awful lot like a prototype warship to me.


2. Fighters - I remember the first instance of fighters being used in DS9 against Gem Hadar (sp?) fighters but other than that, I never even remember seeing any in action. I figure that it's not always necessary to have large ships (frigates, destroyers, carriers) directly fighting each other. I mean, sometimes it seems more advantageous to have a slew of small fighters attacking large ships.

Actually, I always thought fighters were a little silly when you're going up against ships with shields. The Jem'Haddar fighters had weapons which initially went right through Federation shields, which is what made them so dangerous. But how the heck were those dinky Federation fighters supposed to do anything to warships with functional shields and computer-aimed weapons?

Hmmm...actually, now that I think about it, a large fleet of fighters firing warp-speed photon torpedos from a long way off...say several light-hours...could be very effective. But on DS9 the fighters were always using phasers at close range, which struck me as incredibly suicidal.

[RoboDude]

They show random super weapons at regular intervals (Genesis device, trilithium torps, phase cloaks, etc, etc), but always forget about them or lose them by next week. I remember one episode where they mentioned that the Federation signed a treaty with the Romulans in which, among other things that weren't discussed, the Federation agreed not to develop cloaking technology, probably because that's the best excuse the writers could think of to not have a cloaking device in the Enterprise.

I think the Defiant had a cloaking device, though.

[Weird_AL_Einstein]

Spoofe, two things:

1 The writers' half-baked pacifistic political ideas, on TOS to some extent, but much worse in the others, and

2 A great deal of intellectual laziness on the part of same.

[KneadToKnow]

That was the TNG episode "Pegasus," which was in their "Hey the show's coming to an end let's tie up some loose ends and answer some unanswered questions" phase. Good show, despite that.

Given how the UFP works, it seems completely reasonable to accept that they would have negotiated away their rights to develop cloaking technology. I always find myself having to remind people who want to get all snippy about cloaking technology that early vessels couldn't travel at warp while cloaked, so they had minimal strategic benefit.

[Kamino Neko]

Originally posted by RoboDude
I think the Defiant had a cloaking device, though.

The Romulans leant it to them.

And insisted on Romulan Engineers aboard to run it at first (IIRC, they ended up keeping it beyond that.).

And, the Defiant WAS the only one of its kind for a long time. Soon after it was finished the Defiant class was abandoned, for 2 reasons:

a) The Borg threat, in response to which the Federation decided it needed dedicated warships (ie, the Defiant Class), became less urgent.

b) There were some fairly major design flaws in the Defiant. It was, to quote Sisko - 'Over-gunned, and over-powered' and it almost came apart on its shakedown.

Once the Dominion threat became real and urgent, production model Defiant Class (Such as the second Defiant) ships began rolling out.

(The first episode with the Defiant just aired around here the other night, so this information is fresh.)

[Patty O'Furniture]

Whenever a landing party is sent down to an unknown and probably hostile planet, or sent off in a shuttle craft to investigate some mysterious unknown space anomaly, always send the most senior officers. Send them all, as many as will fit into the transporter pad or shuttle craft: the captain, sub-commanders, chief engineer, senior medical officer, and any admirals that happen to be on board.

And even though the senior communications officer doesn't know how to do anything other than operate a communications console, send her along too, just in case one is discovered on the planet.

In the event the away team gets blown up, the ship will be left to the ensigns & non-coms.

[Pushkin]

If a vital piece of equipment or important character has to be destroyed or stolen then the weapons arrays suddenly become inoperable. But, when a bad guy absolutely has to be taken out then suddenly phasers and torpedoes come flying out of every orifice.
But seriously, the Federation, and to this end Starfleet, are peaceful by nature and although they don't intend to be a sitting duck they don't want to go around phasering the ass off everything that moves ergo they sign up to treaties preventing them from using sneaky new technology in exchange for a more peaceful life and ask questions first fire later. DS9 sorta proves how if push comes to shove then Starfleet can gear itslf up for war.
BTW to make the series more watchable I've decided to myself that the reason you don't see any amazing systems for aiming weapons is that countermeasures and other such devices eg transporter scramblers have become so advanced that the best way to get things done is to do it by eye which is probably completely crap but helps. It is slightly disappointing to see a distinct lack of real looking military technology, eg the marines in DS9 look not so very different from the normal Starfleet crew.

[Weirddave]

SPOOFE, this is in response to this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=73006), isn't it? :p:p:p

[CalMeacham]

From the MAD satire of ST:TNG :

Crewmember: Captain, they just attacked us!
Picard:
Have our lawyer send them an angry leter!



Space tactics ought to be a subject of great interest, but it hasn't made it into he movies. Read E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series, or David Weber's Honor Harrinton stories, or Jerry Pournelle's books, or Larry Niven's (or the Man-Kzin War series, although there's precious actual war in that), or A. Bertram Chandler. As I say, the movies are always at least a decade behind the books. In this case they're several decades behind -- Do Smith was writin this stuff in the 20s and 30s.

[ricksummon]

If you want more information on Star Trek vs. Star Wars combat than you could ever use in your life, just go to http://www.stardestroyer.net. You'll find documented, scientific PROOF of just how inferior Star Trek really is, including an incredibly well-written fan fiction that does NOT have Captain Picard being choked by Darth Vader! (What DOES happen to Picard, I'll let you discover for yourself.)

[Swede Hollow]

I've always laughed at major battles in ST:TNG...

BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!
"Shields down to 70% Captain!"
BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!
"OK. Target their engine room."
BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!
"Yes sir. Firing. <ZAP> Minor damage to their starboard shields."
BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!
"Our shields are down to 20%, captain."
BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!
"OK. Target their weapons array."
BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!
"Our shields are failing. Targeting their weapons array. <ZAP> Their weapons are down. They're hailing us."
"Let's talk. On screen."

I wonder if any Federation starship has ever won a battle with more than 50% of their shields intact.

[SPOOFE]

'Dave...

SPOOFE, this is in response to this thread, isn't it?
Actually, no, it was a response to a thread in Comments On Cecil's Columns.

Ender...

Your example is an isolated incident. The reason the E managed to obliterate the Klingon ship in one shot was because the Klingon vessel's shields were down.

And, the whole time that the Klingon ship was firing at them... how many times did the E return fire?

Additionally, I'm not just talking about the Enterprise... I'm also talking about Voyager. Their battle tactics are even worse. It makes me wonder how Janeway managed to reach the rank of Captain.

[kanicbird]

Additionally, I'm not just talking about the Enterprise... I'm also talking about Voyager. Their battle tactics are even worse. It makes me wonder how Janeway managed to reach the rank of Captain.

Janeway is obviously a lower class captain. Voyager is designed as more of a 'police' ship then a full blown starship. Their resources are severly limited (don't they have something like 99 photon torps for the entire trip back). They just don't have the luxury of opening all weapons.

[Miller]

Forget Starfleet, how about those Klingon? These are supposed to be the fiercest warriors in the galaxy, yet they are CONSTANTLY getting the snot beat out of them. Especially in Next Gen. Double especially with Worf. Okay, the first two, three dozen times a "harmless" alien smacks Worf around, I could say "Wow, that alien must be more than he seems if he can so easily beat a mighty Klingon warrior." But after a while, I couldn't help wondering if maybe Worf was just a big wuss. I kinda think even I could take him. Especially if he tried to use that goofy curvy Klingon sword (Batliff?).

OTOH, I was very disappointed when Star Trek started using fighters. To my mind, if you wanted fightercombat, you watched Star Wars. If you wanted big, beheamoth battleships duking it out toe-to-toe, you watched Star Trek. Indeed, ST was really the only sf movie or TV franchise that did good capital ship combat, that I know of. (Obviously, it wasn't all good, hence the OP, but Wrath of Kahn and that TOS episode that was like Das Boot with Romulans: those were just awesome.)

[RickJay]

The worst battle scene I have ever seen on film was the scewne in "Star Trek: Insurrection" where they were shooting at the drones on the planet's surface. They'd leap, roll, take reeeeeeallllly cxareful aim, and then fire one shot and hopefully hit something.

Maybe it's just me, but aren't those hand phasers just about the most pathetic weapons in the history of military equipment? Yes, they're powerful, but they ONLY FIRE ONE SHOT. (and they don't seem to be easily aimed, either, judging from the generally horrendous marksmanship displayed by Starfleet officers.) But wouldn't it be a hell of a lot more useful to have weapons that, say, fired a barrage of shots? Or could fire a continuous stream that swept over an area?) Brilliant engineers of the 19th century came up with such a weapon; it's called a "machine gun." Starfleet also seems to be a little short on the supporting weapons.

When Picard blew away those two Borg on the holodeck in "First Contact" with the tommy gun, it occurred to me that that tommy gun was the best weapon on the Enterprise. Pathetic. A platoon of reservists with M-16s and grenade launchers could clean up a regiment of Starfleet troops.

SPOOFE:

Your example is an isolated incident. The reason the E managed to obliterate the Klingon ship in one shot was because the Klingon vessel's shields were down.

Even if the shields were down, the battle scenes in Star Trek movies have become sloppy and cheap.

The Enterprise is a BIG ship. It's fancifully called an "Explorer," but it's a battleship. The Klingon ship it blew up, a Bird of Prey, is very small, relatively speaking; it's like a PT boat going up against the USS Missouri.

IF they stuck to the ST universe's existing technical "rules," so to speak, the Enterprise should blow that ship away effortlessly; the Klingon ship's shields should never have been able to sustain a full bore phaser blast. But it did, because... because, I guess, the writers just weren't very good, and because ALL Klingon ships in the movies now are "Birds of Prey," because it would be expensive to build a model of a different kind. But also irritating is the amazing stream of photon torpedoes the Enterprise seems to be able to take without exploding; they're supposed to be POWERFUL, for God's sake, but in the movie they explode with all the force of a decent-sized firecracker. (In The Undiscovered Country, some didn't explode at all.) With its shields down, most ships should be blown to peices by a direct hit with a photon torpedo.

The ridiculous "Blow up the Bird of Prey with its shields down" schtick has been used twice now, in the sixth movie and again in Generations, and I can only assume that they just couldn't come up with a better idea.

So, really, NOTHING in that scene made any sense. The whole "we know the frequency of their shields!" thing is stupid. The Klingon ship shouldn't have survived the hits it took, and the Enterprise should have been in peices.

[casdave]

What I find hard to take, is that the weapons systems are so unreliable, three bursts from the pahsors and the damn things either burn out or they have to stop firing before they overheat, WTF, can't they make a decent weapons system ?

Why are the shields and weapons systems not self-contained ? Any hit to the power grid inevitably seems to bring the choice of keeping sensors operating, life support going, shields or weapons, like choose any 3 from 4 huh ? Wouldn't it make some sense to have independant systems in a vessel that is likely to sustain combat damage ?

[Monster104]

What's best are those hull breaches on decks 16-18 when the shields are up at 70%...

[SPOOFE]

The Enterprise is a BIG ship. It's fancifully called an "Explorer," but it's a battleship. The Klingon ship it blew up, a Bird of Prey, is very small, relatively speaking; it's like a PT boat going up against the USS Missouri.
Well, it's a diplomacy vessel. In ST, it seems that the true warships are usually SMALLER... the reason the Galaxy-class ships are so huge is that a large percentage of its volume is given over to luxurious amenities.

The whole "we know the frequency of their shields!" thing is stupid. The Klingon ship shouldn't have survived the hits it took, and the Enterprise should have been in peices.
Further... aren't they capable of just altering the frequency of their shields?

[Odesio]

In the original series the Federation and was willing to kick ass when ass kicking was necessary.

Balance of Terror: In this episode a cloaked Romulan ship has entered Federation space and destroyed a few outpost along the neutral zone. The Enterprise responds by attempting to blow the ship up before it can ever get back to Romulan space. I didn't see any lame passifism in that episode.

The Gorn episode: A mysterious new race has destroyed a Federation colony and the Enterprise responds. The Enterprise responds by attempting to destroy the alien threat by destroying the ship before it could flee Federation space. Granted later on they wuss out with some pacifism stuff on the planet but that was only because of a Q like race that interfered.

The Federation has grown soft since then and they've become a bunch of wussies. I liked it better when the Feds actually tried to kick ass when someone screwed with them. Typically the orginally Enterprise wouldn't sit and get shot 3-4 times before responding.

Marc

[BlueMoonofKentucky]

Two things about ST have always bugged me:
First- why have ranged weapons at all? You've got he capability to yank chunks of thier internal support frame off with the transporter or destroy the warp core by beaming the control system out into space. Or beam a bomb into jean-luc's fistank- but they blaze away at visual range with Megawatt beams?(granted they say you can't beam thru a shield, but they get past this at times also.)

And how is it that any alien that wants to can just materialize through the hull and harrang anyone it wants w/o so much as setting off a motion detector? I mean, come on, most 16 year olds have better protection on thier cars than this 'Flagship",Sheesh

[DocCathode]

"Balance Of Terror" IMHO, the best episode of TOS. Probably the only example of adapting real military strategies to starship combat.

In an espisode of DS9, a serial killer uses a SPOILER
gun that fires a bullet to lethal velocity then beams it directly in front of the target. Since shields block transporters (at least most of the time they do. "we know their frequency" etc) these guns are no use on ships. But the writers never gave a reason why they were not used on the battlefield. I agree with the above posts about disappearing super weapons.

In Undiscovered Country, a protoype Klingon ship that
can fire when cloaked. I've never seen one of these in TNG, or DS9 (I never really watched Voyager)

The exhaust seeking photon torpedo used to destroy the prototype Bird of Prey.

The phase-cloaking device in TNG is a violation of a treaty. Picard destroys it.Presumably enough Star Fleet officials want to uphold the treaty, that the Federation does not engage in cloaking device research.

[SPOOFE]

First- why have ranged weapons at all? You've got he capability to yank chunks of thier internal support frame off with the transporter or destroy the warp core by beaming the control system out into space.
Two reasons:

1. Transporters are notoriously unreliable. Seems that anything can jam them... even some little kid sneezing a spray of snot in the path of the transporter beam.

2. "Unethical" warfare. It's not "fair" to the other ship (see, toldja that the Feds were wussies).

?(granted they say you can't beam thru a shield, but they get past this at times also.)
Uh... not easily. And not in the middle of a battle.

[Drastic]

I always enjoyed how, mostly in TOS, all power surges were directed in such a way that bridge consoles exploded into characters' faces. I'm pretty sure that the sickbay had a specialized facial reconstruction pod, even though they never showed it.

[Darwin's Finch]

Re: the "offensive transporter" issue:

I don't think it's a matter of Feds being weak-willed when it comes to such tactics. The fact is, no-one in the Start Trek universe does it. Which leads me to one of two conclusions:

1) The writers don't want to allow it, since it would unnecessarily complicate everything (transporters would become the only weapon necessary!)...or they just plain haven't thought of it yet.

or

2) If we accept the technology at its face value (as in, ignoring the fact that what happens on the screen is at the whim of writers), then there must be some technological reason why it isn't feasible - otherwise, someone would do it. The Borg are the only race I know of which comes close - but they use cutting beams and tractor beams to remove sections of ships, not transporters.

Obviously, #1 is the real reason, with #2 probably being the rationale (supported by some incomprehensible technobabble).

[Little Nemo]

The Enterprise is the wrong class for the missions it performs. Virtually all navies have two types of ships; small independent ones (frigates, corvettes, submarines) and big fleet ones (ships of the line, battleships, aircraft carriers). It's the small ones that do the kind of missions the Enterprise does; traveling around without escort, relaying messages, carrying diplomats or other important officials, performing recon or survey missions, sneaking into enemy territory, showing the flag against less powerful countries or planets, etc. The big ships act as flagships for fleets of smaller vessels and in peacetime generally either stay near their homeports or patrol in a fixed defensive zone.

Now obviously the Enterprise should have been a Star Fleet frigate or some similar rating. However, the producers and writers of the show were apparently unable to accept the idea of their heroes serving on anything other than the biggest baddest starship in the galaxy.

Another big gap in the Enterprise's operations was the absense of marines. Any ship with the Enterprise's size and mission should have had a detachment of a hundred or so marines on board. How many times would Kirk have been able to quickly resolve a problem if he had been able to beam down a couple of platoons of ground troops? Instead all he could send in was a couple of red-shirts and all they ever did was get killed.

[RickJay]

Originally posted by Darwin's Finch
Re: the "offensive transporter" issue:

I don't think it's a matter of Feds being weak-willed when it comes to such tactics. The fact is, no-one in the Start Trek universe does it. Which leads me to one of two conclusions:

1) The writers don't want to allow it, since it would unnecessarily complicate everything (transporters would become the only weapon necessary!)...or they just plain haven't thought of it yet.

2) If we accept the technology at its face value. (as in, ignoring the fact that what happens on the screen is at the whim of writers), then there must be some technological reason why it isn't feasible -

It's both.

The transporter is in Star Trek because it A) looks really cool, B) gives you the opportunity to do cool stories, and C) lets you spend less money on sets and models.

Most of the Star Trek universes' background was designed AFTER ideas were introduced in the series, and transporters were the original wrench in the works, so to speak. (Holodecks have just completely lapped them for continuity errors, though.) IF you have the ability to zap matter from place to place at will it makes for all kinds of problems with handling stories.

- Why have a ship at all? Why not just beam around?
- Why can't you destroy other ships by meaning nuclear bombs aboard, or by transporting away hull sections?
- Why have Turbolifts? Why not just beam around the ship?
- Just where the hell does the matter go? Can you clone people or things?
- Why can't people commit theft on amazing scales?
- Etc.

The basic answer to everything is power. They put in a lot of limitations by simply making it so that power was an issue. Starships, no matter what, can only produce X power, and if they're using all their systems - like in battle - there isn't enough power to do everything at once. If you want to fire more phasers you have to get power from another system. So they not only made it so that transporters have limited range and can't go through shields, they made them suck up a lot of juice. You wouldn't want to use them much in battle; you need the power. Similarly, you wouldn't want to use them for unnecessary stuff like having everyone beam around the ship rather than walk and taking the lift, because you'd always be taxing the system, and everytime Troi holds one of her "gentlemen only" "Counselling sessions" in the aft holodeck, the damned lights would dim.

[SPOOFE]

If we accept the technology at its face value (as in, ignoring the fact that what happens on the screen is at the whim of writers), then there must be some technological reason why it isn't feasible - otherwise, someone would do it.
One explanation (a lame one, but an explanation nonetheless) that I once got from a Trekkie fan is that they can't teleport sections of a chemically-bonded material. In other words, they can't just teleport your arm off and leave you to bleed to death.

Although I don't buy it... I see no reason why a transporter beam couldn't be modified to obliterate chemical bonds. Hell, they can modify everything else... just route the transporter beam through the All-Powerful deflector dish.

[FEotU]

One of the things I couldn't understand in ST:TNG was during the early battles with the Borg. Away teams beamed into the Borg ship a couple of times, but no one said "Hey, why don't we take along a couple kilos of anti-matter and release it from magnetic containment when we're safely away????". They transported a small quantity of anti-matter to a planet's surface in the original series to destroy an alien creature (the episode "Obsession") and said it would take only a very small amount (a couple grams, IIRC) to rip away the planet's atmosphere.

[Xerxes]

Drastic opined
I always enjoyed how, mostly in TOS, all power surges were directed in such a way that bridge consoles exploded into characters' faces. I'm pretty sure that the sickbay had a specialized facial reconstruction pod, even though they never showed it.

This always makes me laugh. Here we've got a technologically advanced culture who seem to have forgotten about a humble 20th century invention; the fuse. Sheesh.

[possible spoiler]



I watched an episode of Voyager the other day where Tuvok's mind gets zapped by some invisible alien. They need to know about the frequency of the zapping (which Tuvok was measuring just before the event) to help cure him. By now Tuvok's a different character (gives Tim a chance to smile a bit) and can't remember anything. He's into cooking, and ends up unconsciously drawing a sine wave in icing on top of a cake. Now, there's no scale (either x or y). How in the name of God's green earth could they hope to get any useful information from it. Geez.

[SPOOFE]

This always makes me laugh. Here we've got a technologically advanced culture who seem to have forgotten about a humble 20th century invention; the fuse. Sheesh.
It's worse than you think. They use plasma conduits to bring power to EVERYTHING. EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING on the ship. Even when simple copper wires would do the job.

I mean, how much power does a friggin' keyboard NEED, anyway?

[Xerxes]

I mean, how much power does a friggin' keyboard NEED, anyway?

Apparently quite a lot, to explode so spectacularly :D

That's the answer then. At least it's consistent.

[DougC]

- - - I agree with others that one reason these shows aren't interesting to me is that the "advanced" combat they use is inconsistent and nonsensical. Like for instance, aiming guns at all: if you've ever seen someone play a videogame using an aimbot, you know what I mean. A computer can aim any (automated) weapon far quicker than a living organism can.
Also it's interesting about how it portrays war: guided by some UN-type Universal Organization concerned about peace and prosperity for all (a very liberal concept), but at the same time it seems to show that advancing technology will be able to shield individuals from the personal horror of war, which hardly discourages engaging in it. Healing is instantaneous and nobody hardly ever dies. War, anyone?
~
Poor writing, plain and simple. No overall concept.
~
-I think the whole concept just falls flat for me: I understand it is intended to be showing particular characters facing particular situations, but I liked Blade Runner far better because even though the image of the future it showed was rather depressing, it was far more believable than any Star Trek or Star Wars episode. Star Wars showed different species getting along far too well, IMO. Star Trek is way too clean and tidy.
It's worse than you think. They use plasma conduits to bring power to EVERYTHING. .... Even when simple copper wires would do the job. I mean, how much power does a friggin' keyboard NEED, anyway? - SPOOFE
- Well it is rather lame how the keyboards keep exploding (maybe they should stop making them with nitroglycerine in them) but in this instance, the writers actually did okay. Standardization of systems isn't all that dumb. Have you ever noticed how every wall socket in US houses is capable of delivering 120 volts@10 amps, even when the only thing plugged into it is a 15-watt nightlight? If you wired the outlet for only a 15-watt output, building the system would be more complicated at the outset and you'd never be able to use that socket for anything else that needed more power. - MC

[SPOOFE]

Star Wars showed different species getting along far too well, IMO.
You really thought so? I thought that the inter-species relationships weren't really explored in the movies... the novels, however, depicted lots of discriminations (Trandoshans hated Wookiees - and even enslaved them - Quarren disliked the Mon Calamari, Gamorreans hated EVERYBODY). Keep in mind that they had 25,000 years of Civil Rights movements... that's bound to do something...

Something I thought both SW and ST do is always depict humanity is "on top of the heap", super-intelligent and far more resourceful than any other species. I see no reason why this should necessarily be the case...

Standardization of systems isn't all that dumb. Have you ever noticed how every wall socket in US houses is capable of delivering 120 volts@10 amps, even when the only thing plugged into it is a 15-watt nightlight?
Yeah, but the difference is, the 15-watt nightlight doesn't explode with the force of a grenade when it gets shaken up a little. Standardization is nice, yeah, but it's just stupid when it creates a major hazard. Hell, 90% of the injuries on ST ships seem to be derived from exploding touchscreens.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by Math Geek
Actually, I always thought fighters were a little silly when you're going up against ships with shields. The Jem'Haddar fighters had weapons which initially went right through Federation shields, which is what made them so dangerous. But how the heck were those dinky Federation fighters supposed to do anything to warships with functional shields and computer-aimed weapons?


Yeah, but in Star Wars they use fighters and the capital ships are 10x the size of the biggest Federation ship.

I would think Federation fighters would be better suited for supporting ground troops anyway.


Anyway, here's what I noticed about ST:

1) Landing party on a hostile planet always consists of the bridge crew and two guards who get vaporized in 2 minutes. Theres no Federation Marines or security teams that can go instead?

2) How about making a gunship varient of those shuttle craft for close air support? I'm sure its comforting having the Enterprise orbiting 100 miles overhead (assuming its always geosynchrinous), but what about a little local air support for those situations that don't require massive orbital bombardments or when the transporters break?

3)Phasers are great direct fire weapons but what about targets that aren't in direct line of sight? I would think they could make some great mini guided-warheads for grenade launchers and mortars 300 years from now.

4) Where are all the unmanned probes? Occasionally we see space probes or a robot if it is part of the story line. But why not have a small, dumb probe with a tricorder and maybe a small phaser on it (think the imperial probe from Empire Strikes Back)? It maight save a few red-shirts lives.

5) Speaking about red-shirts, why not camofladge uniforms when they are in actual combat? No wonder red shirts always get killed.

[Sengkelat]

What's up with the verbal commands? The captain has to tell someone else to fire, or turn, or whatever. Wouldn't he get faster reaction times if he controlled it himself? Obviously, he can't do everything, but all the time-critical stuff should be at his fingertips. I think the verbally repeated commands, aside from making the action more clear and dramatic, are there as a holdover from old wooden ships stories, where slow moving 72-gun sailing vessels could take an extra few moments to relay orders.

I always wonder why they beam down all facing in one direction. Wouldn't it help to have the guards facing all around?

And those phasers are the world's lamest weapons. Everyone dodges phaser beams...let's see them dodge a low-tech bullet! And why can't the phaser be put on continuous beam and used like a light saber? There'd be no way to miss then.

[Orbifold]

Originally posted by msmith537
Yeah, but in Star Wars they use fighters and the capital ships are 10x the size of the biggest Federation ship.

The fighters in Star Wars don't seem terribly useful against capital ships either. The only successes fighters have against big ships in the Star Wars movies are the kamikaze attack against the Super Star Destroyer in Return of the Jedi (and there were rebel capital ships involved in that fight too, pounding away at the deflector screens beforehand), and when Anakin accidentally blew up a ship from the inside in The Phantom Menace.

Besides, we're talking Trek here...apples and oranges and all that.

[matt_mcl]

Incidentally, the Sovereign-class (Enterprise-E) is apparently classified as a warship.

Here's another stupid tactic: fly the ship overtop of the threat and strafe them. EXPOSING YOUR ENTIRE BIG FLAT UNDERBELLY! Geez, you're in space! Can't you fly sideways and expose only a thin little cross-section?

[SPOOFE]

Math Geek...

The fighters in Star Wars don't seem terribly useful against capital ships either.
A squadron of X-wings, if properly deployed and equipped with skilled pilots, can disable a Star Destroyer. However, you're missing the fundamental use of fighters... they're meant to COMPLEMENT a capital ship, not replace it.

Besides, we're talking Trek here...apples and oranges and all that.
True. What ST calls "fighters" would actually be considered gunboats or even light corvettes in SW.

Here's another stupid tactic: fly the ship overtop of the threat and strafe them. EXPOSING YOUR ENTIRE BIG FLAT UNDERBELLY! Geez, you're in space! Can't you fly sideways and expose only a thin little cross-section?
Yeah, they have all those "omni-directional" phasers, yet they only seem to fire in one direction...

[Chocobo]

IIRC, in a couple of episodes of Voyager, they used the transporter to beam away parts of other ships, like their warp core. Once they beamed a torpedo into a Borg sphere, rigging it to explode after approx 5 seconds. Voyager always was just a little more willing to cross that Federation ethical line than the TNG or DS9-ers.

Personally, I think the Federation would be a lot better off if they were like Voyager was remembered to be by an alien species in 'Living Witness' or something like that. Borg assault drones, 20 phaser cannons, 12 heavy photon torpedo launchers, plauge devising android doctors, etc. 'When diplomacy fails, violence...It's the Federation way.'

As to the fighters, in ST they would be much less effective than in SW, due to the fact that phasers are much more accurate than the Turbolasers in SW. The biggest advantage fighters have over larger capitol ships is their ultra-maneuverability. This is lost in the ST universe, because of their more accurate weapons.

[Kamino Neko]

Originally posted by Chocobo
IIRC, in a couple of episodes of Voyager, they used the transporter to beam away parts of other ships, like their warp core.

Don't forget the Viidian organ theft guns.

Transporters can haul chunks away, but shields make a hash of them (Far more so than they do a phaser or photon torp).

[SPOOFE]

As to the fighters, in ST they would be much less effective than in SW, due to the fact that phasers are much more accurate than the Turbolasers in SW. The biggest advantage fighters have over larger capitol ships is their ultra-maneuverability. This is lost in the ST universe, because of their more accurate weapons.
Two points:

1. The reason fighters aren't as widely used is because the massive, 650 meter Galaxy-class ships seem to be just as maneuverable as the tiny shuttles (even the Delta Flyer, which was supposed to be an exceptionally fast/maneuverable ship).

2. The phasers aren't remarkably accurate. Just watch almost any battle scene in Voyager... they miss four times out of five. And people accused SW Stormtroopers of being inaccurate... sheesh.

[don Jaime]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
Hell, they can modify everything else... just route the transporter beam through the All-Powerful deflector dish.

"All-powerful?" I can't recall a single instance where rerouting whatever through the deflector dish accomplished diddly-squat. For example, in "The Best of Both Worlds," it was crucial to the cliffhanger, Riker shoots his captain with the deflector array! Which fizzled, of course, so they had to opt for the Data miracle cure.

This is the only instance I have at my fingertips, but I'd swear that the deflector dish, besides failing at its main job of stopping phaser damage to decks 14 to 16, also fails at any other job you'd care to give it. Maybe Voyager had a better quality dish?

[dropzone]

When those dashboards explode, why are they up and running ten seconds later? You let THAT much smoke and sparks out of a current computer, mil-spec or not, and you've got a trip down to Best Buy ahead of you.

[dropzone]

Also, when Picard was on the Borg cube and the Boobyprize was being tractor-beamed into the Borg cargo bay, why didn't Riker go to warp? I cannot imagine it would be healthy to be half a block away when someone opened a warp field. Maybe the Federation folks wouldn't have survived, but that would be better than all those other Fed ships getting it later. And the Borg would think twice about messing with us.

[Saint Zero]

from the desk of Vice Admiral Saint Zero, aboard the flagship USS Straight Dope:

Starting now, when Federation ships are fired upon by ANYONE, for whatever reason, RAISE THE DAMN SHIELDS FIRST!, THEN call your Captain's sorry ass to the bridge.

Failure to follow this simple order is punishable by being teleported to the nearest airless asteriod, sans clothing.

- SZ

[Papermache Prince]

I'm far from the first to mention it but

300 years from now no one can do a friggin' back up of computer data?

[SPOOFE]

I can't recall a single instance where rerouting whatever through the deflector dish accomplished diddly-squat.
You never watched Voyager, did you? They rerouted EVERYTHING through the deflector dish, even the raw sewage. Scanners, "fermion fields", "polaron bursts", and any number of oddball energy manipulations. Heck, they used the deflector dish to open a "singularity" to enter fluidic space (y'know, where Species 8472 lived?).

[kanicbird]

300 years from now no one can do a friggin' back up of computer data?

People don't even backup their 20 gig HD and you expect them to backup their 120 googlebite HD?


Another thing that always got me it that when the situation is dire the capt'n always makes a complex engineering suggestion that solves the problem (can we route the plasma discharge initiators throught the disgromificator and creat an inverse warp field bubble) - like the capt'n would know that more then a trained engineer.

[PlanMan]

Why is it, both in ST and SW, 99.999999% (approximately) of the time, all ships in space meet oriented the same way - "right side up" - we never see a scene where the Enterprise meets a ship that is rotated 47 degrees to port (or starboard). Only once or twice, when it is a plot-point (Wrath of Khan, for example) do they seem to even realize they have 3 dimensions of space. I am discounting "swooping" fighter-like moves, too. And in 3D space, wouldn't you want a weapons array on the bottom of the engineering section of the Enterprise that's just as powerful as the one on top of the saucer section?

[Tuckerfan]

Okay, now supposing they actually obeyed the prime directive, how smart is that? Suppose they stumble on race X that's just about to hit warp technology. Race X are a xenophobic warlike bunch that make the Klingons look like a bunch of dead cats, WTF do they do? Do they let Race X get warp drive and fly around the cosmos kicking everybody's ass, or do they stomp 'em before then? Also, HTF are they supposed to enforce the prime directive? There's waaaaay too much space for them to monitor, to think that they could park a protective ship around every world that has a primitive society on it (talk about your dull assignments). Why wouldn't someone (like say, the Ferengi) come along and exploit those people? Sure, you can say that replicators eliminate the need for people to rob primitives of gold, etc. (but everyone loves gold pressed latinum, whatever the hell that might be) and holosuites, make the need for sex slaves evaporate, but I ain't buyin' it.

Besides, every adolescent with access to a shuttle craft is gonna wanna go to some under developed society and do things like buzz the capitol or perform anal probes :eek: on some poor schmuck.

[Orbifold]

Originally posted by PlanMan
And in 3D space, wouldn't you want a weapons array on the bottom of the engineering section of the Enterprise that's just as powerful as the one on top of the saucer section?

Actually, according to the Technical Manual the Enterprise is supposed to have phaser arrays: at the aft end of the engineering section on both the dorsal and ventral sides, on each of the nacelle pylons, at the forward end of the engineering section on the ventral side, and on the back and underside of the "neck" of the engineering section where it meets the saucer section, in addition to the two big ones on the saucer section itself. Of course, we never see those used in the series, presumably because either no one thought to write them into a script or because they never had time to put together the effect.

(The Technical Manual contains a number of things I would have loved to see in the series itself. The Captain's Gig is another example, although not relevant to this thread.)

[SPOOFE]

The Technical Manual contains a number of things I would have loved to see in the series itself.
And the Technical Manual contains a number of things which are directly contradicted by the series...

::sigh::

Such sloppy work on the part of the writers should be criminal.

[Saint Zero]

Network Security: Forgotten art in the 24th Century?

I mean, when Joe Schmoe can hack into the Enterprise's computers, rearrainge information in the computer, and then leave no trace.... Sheesh.

[Papermache Prince]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
The Technical Manual contains a number of things I would have loved to see in the series itself.
And the Technical Manual contains a number of things which are directly contradicted by the series...

::sigh::

Such sloppy work on the part of the writers should be criminal.

Which wouldn't be much of a threat if the Writer's Guild cells are as easy to escape from as Star Fleet's.

[xizor]

Originally posted by Saint Zero
Network Security: Forgotten art in the 24th Century?

I mean, when Joe Schmoe can hack into the Enterprise's computers, rearrainge information in the computer, and then leave no trace.... Sheesh.



This is my biggest beef right here. Why wasn't Tuvok's ass kicked off the ship or at least demoted? Worst security officer EVER!

"Captain, the guy who cleans the toilets has over-ridden security protocols and locked me out of transporter control, again!"

[Miller]

And what about those damn holodecks? How many times does the entire ship (including all those civilians and children) have to be threatened by Yet Another Holodeck Malfunction (YAHM) before someone just pulls the plug on the damn thing? Talk about an unsafe product. Someone has to go get Ralph Nader's head-in-a-jar from Futurama to set those Federation bastids straight.

[SPOOFE]

Damn straight, Miller. Those Starfleet ships are deathtraps.

Lousy combat tactics that wouldn't best a Polish calvary, glitchy transporter systems that couldn't beam through a glob of fly spit, hazardous Destructo Brand keyboards with TNT casing and nitro-glycerin buttons, and a glorified game of Super Mario Bros. that puts the entire vessel in danger...

Makes me wonder why the Borg want to assimilate humanity at all.

[dropzone]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
Lousy combat tactics that wouldn't best a Polish calvary...
<sigh> Look here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=55631) before you start dissing the Polish cavalry.

And what about "Starship Troopers?" They send these poor bastards against bugs the size of Winnebagos and only give them M60s? No artillery? No air support?

[Tuckerfan]

I found this on another message board (won't mention the site, but if you know the one, you'll know why :D! ) Strangely off-topic for that board, but utterly appropriate for this one. Have no idea who the author is, but here she be:

If Dr. Seuss wrote for Star Trek: the Next Generation...

Picard: Sigma Indri, that's the star,
So, Data, please, how far? How far?
Data: Our ship can get there very fast
But still the trip will last and last
We'll have two days til we arrive
But can the Indrans there survive?
Picard: LaForge, please give us factor nine.
LaForge: But, sir, the engines are offline!
Picard: Offline! But why? I want to go!
Please make it so, please make it so!
Riker: But sir, if Geordi says we can't,
We can't, we mustn't, and we shan't,
The danger here is far too great!
Picard: But surely we must not be late!
Troi: I'm sensing anger and great ire.
Computer: Alert! Alert! The ship's on fire!
Picard: The ship's on fire? How could this be?
Who lit the fire?
Riker: Not me.
Worf: Not me.
Picard: Computer, how long til we die?
Computer: Eight minutes left to say goodbye.
Data: May I suggest a course to take?
We could, I think, quite safely make
Extinguishers from tractor beams
And stop the fire, or so it seems...
Geordi: Hurray! Hurray! You've saved the day!
Again I say, Hurray! Hurray!
Picard: Mr. Data, thank you much.
You've saved our lives, our ship, and such.
Troi: We still must save the Indran planet--
Data: Which (by the way) is made of granite...
Picard: Enough, you android. Please desist.
We understand--we get your gist.
But can we get our ship to go?
Please, make it so, PLEASE make it so.
Geordi: There's sabotage among the wires
And that's what started all the fires.
Riker: We have a saboteur? Oh, no!
We need to go! We need to go!
Troi: We must seek out the traitor spy
And lock him up and ask him why?
Worf: Ask him why? How sentimental.
I say give him problems dental.
Troi: Are any Romulan ships around?
Have scanners said that they've been found?
Or is it Borg or some new threat
We haven't even heard of yet?
I sense no malice in this crew.
Now what are we supposed to do?
Crusher: Captain, please, the Indrans need us.
They cry out, "Help us, clothe us, feed us!"
I can't just sit and let them die!
A doctor MUST attempt--MUST try!
Picard: Doctor, please, we'll get there soon.
Crusher: They may be dead by Tuesday noon.
*COMMERCIAL BREAK, COMMERCIAL BREAK
HOW LONG WILL THESE DUMB ADS TAKE?*
Worf: The saboteur is in the brig.
He's very strong and very big.
I had my phaser set on stun--
A zzzip! A zzzap! Another one!
He would not budge, he would not fall,
He would not stun, no, not at all!
He changed into a stranger form
All soft and purple, round and warm.
Picard: Did you see this, Mr. Worf?
Did you see this creature morph?
Worf: I did and then I beat him fairly.
Hit him on the jaw--quite squarely.
Riker: My commendations, Klingon friend!
Our troubles now are at an end!
Crusher: Now let's get our ship to fly
And orbit yonder Indran sky!
Picard: LaForge, please tell me we can go...?
Geordi: Yes, sir, we can.
Picard: Then make it so!
THE END

[Tuckerfan]

Originally posted by Drastic
I always enjoyed how, mostly in TOS, all power surges were directed in such a way that bridge consoles exploded into characters' faces. I'm pretty sure that the sickbay had a specialized facial reconstruction pod, even though they never showed it.

Shoulda thought of this one sooner:

Can you say: "This console was built by the contractor with the lowest bid?" I thought so.

[Lemur866]

I guess the prime factor in starship combat is power. Power for shields, power for warp, power for phasers. It makes no difference what you do, barring tricks to catch the other guy with shields down.

Just stand there with shields on full and blast away, and may the best reactor win.

This is why fighters would be ineffective. No fighter could carry a reactor big enough to power a phaser that could punch through a capital ship's shields, and even if it could the capital ship could destroy the fighter's shields easily. All weapons platforms would be pretty much useless unless protected by shields.

Of course, if go with this, that means that planetary defenses would be orders of magnitude more powerful than a starship could hope to be. Just rig up a warp reactor the size of Ceres, hook it up to giant shield generators and a massive phaser bank and you have an impregnable monitor.

All these proposed tricks with transporters won't work, since transporters won't (unless the writers need them too) work through shields. So raising shields is an absolute defense against marine attacks, beaming out the warp core, beaming antimatter onto the bridge, etc.

But, transporters open entire cases of cans of worms. It has been established that transporter/replicators can split people in two, merge two people, alter them in all kinds of ways, duplicate them, hold them in stasis. The biggest problem is that you could edit and duplicate people. Why bother with Starfleet Academy when you can just duplicate Captain Picard? Why do you need Dr. Soong's secret blueprints for Data, when you can just crank out as many Datas as you need via replicator/transporter? Why build ships when all you need are big replicators? Heck, why not include the full crew when you replicate a new ship?

Oh, are replicators too expensive then? Then just build ONE, then replicate yourself some new replicators. Oh, replicators take too much power? Then replicate yourself some more warp reactors. Nope, if you had replicators then we are squarely inside a technological singularity where it is pointless to speculate about might happen since all rules go out the window.

So replicators CAN'T be used this way since they would make the show unwritable. But they should have realized this at the beginning and disallowed replicators. But they couldn't do that, since replicators are really transporters, and transporters were inherited from TOS.

[Stupendous man]

Let us not forget the movies either. Take Star Trek 5, The final Frontier for instance.

This is the one where they pull Kirk and spock and mckoy off of Shore leave, and stick them into a ship that is having major problems, because apparantly their entire fleat of other ships is busy elsewhere doing whatever, leaving them ripe for the picking when the klingons get word of it. Then, instead of a team of competent crewpersons, almost every member of the senior crew jumps into the shuttle to go for the away team, leaving the 5th in command in charge of the ship. Of course, this makes things "tense" when the klingons show up out of nowhere, uncloaked, and unnoticed and begin attacking. Does this ship not have some degree of sensors, or an alarm to let people know when somethings spproaching them??

Oh well...