Is a lightning bolt a racist symbol?

[KidCharlemagne]

I want to get a lightning bolt tattoo for certain personal reasons, but it brings to mind Nazi's and White supremacists. I know that the double lighting bolt symbol is a Nazi sybol, but what about one? Even if it's not technically, do you think people would interpret it as one?

[Liberal]

Is a lightning bolt a racist symbol?

People — not symbols — are racists. No matter what symbol you choose to burn into your largest organ, you don't know but what it might be appropriated tomorrow by the most hateful racist group on earth.

[black rabbit]

If it's not on the ADL's list (http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default_graphics.html), you're pretty safe, see as to how they seem to think that the circle-A anarchy symbol is racist... whatever...

That's not to say some hypersensitive and misguided individual might think your tats are racist. Just ignore those people.

For additional style points, get an Elvis "TCB" lightning bolt.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Just FTR, I believe the Nazi "double lightning bolt" is actually a stylized "SS".

Pic only.
http://www.1earth.com.au/badge/ap/pic/collat_tabs2.jpg

Pics and info.
http://216.205.92.146/www/g_insig_ss.htm

I would think you could do a lightning bolt as long as it didn't too much look like these particular 1930s Art Deco lightning bolts.

[hajario]

Originally posted by black455
see as to how they seem to think that the circle-A anarchy symbol is racist... whatever...


I actually took the extra 2.2 seconds to find out about this.

Although the symbol is more often used by Anarchists, an "A" in a circle is also a symbol sometimes used by individuals in the white supremacist movement who are violently anti-government because of their conspiratorial belief that Jews control the government. The anarchy movement ranges from groups and individuals who wish peacefully to establish local self-government cooperatives all the way to those who violently lash out at government. The majority of people who identify with this movement consider themselves non-racist or anti-racist. The symbol is more likely to be used in an anti-government context than a racist context.

Seems reasonable to me... whatever...

Haj

[ExTank]

Some of our current and past military heraldry (unit crests and such) contain some of the very symbols mentioned above.

The Seventh ATC (Army Training Command) is (or was; it may have been inactivated with the military's downsizing) was an "A" on a round patch, with a red-white-blue color scheme.

Certain special forces units, and the 25th Light Infantry Division ("Tropic Lightning", based at Schofield Barracks, Hawaii) have the zig-zag stylized lightning bolt symbol in their unit crest. As such, tattoos featuring these symbols are quite popular with the soldiers assigned to these units.

Whether these individuals are racists or not is a personal matter; whether these symbols are meant to convey a racist message, or merely represent esprit decorps, is something you would have to ask the individual sporting this ink to clarify. But ask them nicely. :)

I have several tattoos, and am occasionally asked what they mean (they can be a bit enigmatic to the uninitiated). Only one person that I have met knew what they represented just by looking at them. Only one person (a native American) assumed that they had racist connotations; and from his perspective, they very well could be interpreted that way.

I told him my reasons for them, what they meant to me, and he was mollified.

[black rabbit]

Originally posted by hajario
Originally posted by black455
see as to how they seem to think that the circle-A anarchy symbol is racist... whatever...


I actually took the extra 2.2 seconds to find out about this.

<snip>

Seems reasonable to me... whatever...

Haj

That ADL site is the only source I've ever seen for that. Even the Anti Racist Action, a fairly radical organization, doesn't include the symbol in their "How to spot a nazi" literature.

[Tony]

Originally posted by KidCharlemagne
Even if it's not technically, do you think people would interpret it as one?

First, you probably shouldn't give a crap what people think, particularly the ignorant. And there are plenty of those to go around. Even the swastika isn't a racist symbol. It was turned into one by Hitler. If you get a tattoo of a black swastika in a white cirlce surrounded by red, then you have a racist symbol. However, there are countless other designs of swastikas which are not at all racist, yet certain nimrods might condemn you because of their limited scope. I know my Hindu friend Mitesh is not a racist yet among the ancient designs in his home is a swastika.

Just like with a swastika or a cross or anything else, the way the design is drawn will go a long way in how people may look at it. If I'm not mistaken, I think there is a football team in some obscure league (maybe the Euro-NFL) that has lightning bolts on their helmet and they convey no ideas of racism. It depends on how it is drawn. (Do you think of nazis when you see images of Zeus with lightning bolts in hand?).

[Sultan Kinkari]

If I didn't know you, I'd think you were a rasist, unless you were black or asian. Or latino. Fuck tattoos, they're stupid. If you can't get chicks without a tattoo, it ain't gonna help.

[AETBOND417]

Originally posted by wishbone
If I didn't know you, I'd think you were a rasist, unless you were black or asian. Or latino. Fuck tattoos, they're stupid. If you can't get chicks without a tattoo, it ain't gonna help.
:confused:

[Una Persson]

Having spent some serious time in several museums in Athens, Greece, lately, I was exposed to a huge number of swastikas in Eastern art and artifacts. Given the knee-jerk reaction of a lot of people to symbols, I can just see someone saying "Wow - so all the cultures of the East followed Hitler's teachings - before he was born!" :rolleyes:

Yeah wishbone, blacks, asians, and latinos could never be racists...only whites, right?

[Diceman]

The only bigot I see in this thread is wishbone. Who's the person who's making sweeping generalizations about people's personalities and beliefs based on no other evidence than that they have a tattoo? That's bigotry, Wish.

[sjc]

Originally posted by Diceman
The only bigot I see in this thread is wishbone. Who's the person who's making sweeping generalizations about people's personalities and beliefs based on no other evidence than that they have a tattoo? That's bigotry, Wish.

Would it be redundant for me to say I agree, wishbone seems a bit close-minded judging by the post. Of course there's not enough to work with using just that one quote. As to the OP, I don't personally know of any racist connotations and add my support to what Duck Duck Goose said about them: the SS used a double lightning bolt that I believe was meant to be stylized SS's.

I met a guy in college who had a rune combination (I don't remember which one) on his backpack which apparently was used by the Nazis. He said he gets hassled for it occasinally but after he explains what it means to him people usually calm down. So go for it. Get a lightning tattoo, just try not to get it 1930s art-deco as per DDG's suggestion.

(spelling error corrected - Jill)

[Edited by JillGat on 06-24-2001 at 12:18 AM]

[Marvel]

Lightening bolts racist?!?! That's a new one for me. They usually make ME think of Captain Marvel!

SHAZAM!
Patty

[dragonlady]

I can add that I have seen mail being returned from a state prison because it had a drawing of a lightning bolt on the envelope. It was stamped as being returned "due to a gang sign" being on the envelope.
Beats me.

['Uigi]

Another logo that comes to mind is the one the Strategic Air Command (USAF) used for years that had a gloved (armored) hand in the clouds holding a lightning bolt.

Is that racist? Nah, don't think so. Just good heraldry.

[JillGat]

Some Native American tribes here in New Mexico have used the swastika symbol, though turned the other direction from the Nazi symbol.

That being said, I agree that "people are racists, not symbols" but I also think that it's common decency to be sensitive about the use of symbols that others are offended by. I mean, why offend or hurt others if you don't have to? Is it really all that important to fight for the "right" to use symbols that many see as racist?

This is probably becoming a "great debate." We'll see. - Jill

[Devin Austra]

It amazes me that there are people who aren't Caucasian who say all white people are racist just because they're white.

IMO, if you're not Caucasian and you say that all white people are racist with no exceptions, then you're racist.

As a matter of fact........
no matter what color/race/religion you are, if you say anyone who is of a different color/race/religion than you is racist based on that difference, with NO proof or reason whatsoever other than your own beliefs, then you're a fucking hypocrite.

[JillGat]

Uh, Devin? Who said that here?

[Morrison's Lament]

This topic is actually quite interesting to me since I've beren wanting to get a "swastika" tatoo, but not tilted, coloured or encircled.

It's quite a profound spiritual symbol if it's drawn that way, and I can't hate Hitler enough for ruining it for Hindus and Buddhists everywhere. I even know some people who refuse to buy Buddha statues if they have the symbol on Siddharta's chest (a traditional depiction).

I think the thunderbolt will be fine, but I'll probably never have the guts to get a swastika, especially since I spend a lot of time around Africans and Asians, I'd hate to send out confusing signals. :(

--- G. Raven

[Maxwell Edison]

This is slightly off-topic, but I once read that Kiss changed their logo while perfoming in Germany due to its resemblance to the Nazi "SS".

[Neurodoc]

Although many people in the USA adorn their skin with tattoos for purely decorative reasons, a significant number of them do so to identify with criminal gangs. The lightening bolt tattoo is, in fact, associated with prison and street gangs such as the Aryan Brotherhood, the Nazi Low Riders, and the Skinhead gangs (Aryan Resistance Movement, Aryan Youth Movement, and the White Aryan Resistance (WAR)).

[Cervaise]

Even if it's not technically, do you think people would interpret it as one?Well, we all know how well "niggardly" went over. :rolleyes:

[jaimest]

I thought that the "lightening bolt" used by the Waffen S.S. was actually a rune, and had some mystical Norse or Teutonic meaning appropraited by the Nazis.
I mean there is nothing inherently racist about electricity is there?

[Father Pacelli]

It depends on the context. Some symbols are intrinsically racist; some are not. It depends on a lot of things.

However, let's face it--99 out of 100 people who wear a swastika, display the rebel flag, etc are in fact racist.

Put it this way: If I had a hammer and sickle tattoo, many people would understandably think that I'm a Commie, right? If I had a pentacle tattoo, people would think that I'm Pagan. Whether or not you like it, the fact of the matter is that swastikas, SS/Totenkopf runes, etc are considered racist now. Okay, you personally may not be racist--but many people will see you as one.

If that doesn't bother you, go ahead and get that tat.

If that DOES bother you, skip the tat.

[Morrison's Lament]

That's a GREAT idea!

I'm gonna go get a Hammer and Sickle (*tm* Karl Marx 1917) tattoo as soon as possible! :D

--- G. Raven

[Osip]

Design and location for Tats are everything.
I am sure if someone wants to get their undies in a wad they can link any symbol to a gang,hate group,secret society, ethnic group.
People, will also make judgements on how the symbol is displayed. Winnie the Pooh is cute, Winnie the Pooh nailed to a cross might not be.
If you place said Lightning tattoo in the center of your forehead your gonna get some looks. If placed on your upper arm or forearm you can control the ammount of visiblity strangers have of it with sirt sleeve.
At one drunken point of my life I almost shaved my head and had a Mt Rushmore type tattoo put on my head. Except with Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin instead of the US Presidents.
Is amazing what kind of dares I would take on when drunk.
Needless to say I am not the drinker I used to be :)

Enjoy your Tat!

Osip

[Una Persson]

Originally posted by Osip
Winnie the Pooh is cute, Winnie the Pooh nailed to a cross might not be.

Oh my. I'm seeing a new sig!

Una "Winnie died for your sins" Persson

[red_dragon60]

The runic lightning bolt (I forget the name) symbolizes power I think. If you look at the swastika, you can see two. One is turned on it's side. This means the "fireball" and continual power. At least that's how that nazis portayed it.

If I am wrong, someone please correct me!

[LouisB]

Father Pacelli said,
However, let's face it--99 out of 100 people who wear a swastika, display the rebel flag, etc are in fact racist.

How would you characterize your statement as being anything other than bigotted? I would love to see you support that claim with some sort of meaningful data.

I don't wear a swastika, nor do I own a "rebel flag," more properly known as the Confederate Battle Flag. I do know people who exhibit that flag for resons of their own, not one of whom is racist. I have also known some rebellious people, kids, mostly, who have chosen to wear a swastika just for the shock value. And, as has been pointed out, the swastika, in it's original form, has very ancient roots in religion and culture.

Labeling people on the basis of a flag or a tatoo is as bad as labeling them on the basis of color, creed, or national origin.

[D18]

Hmmm. If a lightening bolt signifies racist attitudes, that may explain the relative dearth of Canadians of African descent playing for Tampa's NHL team. It's the only explanation that makes sense! :D

[Northern Piper]

Labeling people on the basis of a flag or a tatoo is as bad as labeling them on the basis of color, creed, or national origin.

I would disagree with this statement. A person chooses to display a flag or tatoo, as a form of personal expression. That's their right. If people choose to express themselves through a symbol that has certain meanings associated with it, it's fair for onlookers to assume that those persons are identifying themselves with the meanings of that symbol.

For example, if someone is wearing a lapel pin of a cross, it's fair to assume that person is a Christian, and possibly further along on the evangelical spectrum than some other Christians. That's not pigeon-holing or labelling; it's ascribing meaning to the symbol that the person chooses to display to the world.

There are limits to how far it is fair for the onlooker to ascribe meanings, based on the nature of the symbol, the context, and its ambiguity or clarity, as this thread itself demonstrates. In some contexts, a runic lightning bolt may be a racist symbol, or a gang symbol, or means nothing more than "Hey - cool tat!" But if a person consciously chooses to display a symbol of unambiguous meaning, then it's completely fair for others to atribute certain values to the person displaying the symbol.

For example, a flag with a tilted swastika, in a white circle, on a red background, is pretty unambigous, and I feel no qualms about attributing certain values to the person who chooses to express themself by displaying it.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Originally posted by red_dragon60
The runic lightning bolt (I forget the name) symbolizes power I think. If you look at the swastika, you can see two. One is turned on it's side. This means the "fireball" and continual power. At least that's how that nazis portayed it.

If I am wrong, someone please correct me!

Hi, here's a starting point. :)

http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/swastika.html

Short answer: the swastika or "broken cross" is an ancient symbol that was appropriated by the Nazis. It's got nothing to do with runic lightning bolts or electricity or fireballs or continual power.

All you have to do to make one is to take a basic "+"-shaped cross and turn each of the arms at a 90 degree angle. So it's no wonder that many cultures have come up with it, and it usually means "good luck". Dunno exactly why, you'd have to talk to an anthropologist or psychologist.

[NHL7890]

I believe that the two lightning bolts reffered to Hitlers SS forces and/or Hitlers "Blitzkrieg"(Lightning War. I could be wrong though, you're best bet is to head over to a local library and begin researching, try looking up Facist symbols.
-NHL

[Father Pacelli]

I always thought that the Nazi SS was a visual play on words. SchutzStaffel(sp?)=SS=two lightning bolt runes next to each other.

Then again, I've been wrong before.

As for my being bigoted for assuming the vast majority of those with swastikas, etc are racist, consider. Symbols have meanings; skin colour and heritage do not. I can be Black, Hispanic, White or whatever and have any ideology at all. However, if I was Jewish, I probably wouldn't wear a swastika. Why? Because the people who used that rune would have thrown me into a gas chamber just like they did to 5.7 million of my ancestors.

Skin colour denotes ideology; race/ethnicity do not. Geddit? Got it? Good! :D

[Kalashnikov]

Politically Incorrect Pooh (http://pub.anonymizer.com/~klash/pix3/pooh_ar15.jpg)

[Devin Austra]

Originally posted by JillGat
Uh, Devin? Who said that here?

No one HERE said that, Jill.
I was just using it as an example, because I know a lot of people who do that - they accuse other people of being racist based on skin color or some other ethnic factor, and in doing so, they prove to the rest of the world how racist THEY really are.
Just trying to get my point across, that's all.

[red_dragon60]

Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose
Originally posted by red_dragon60
The runic lightning bolt (I forget the name) symbolizes power I think. If you look at the swastika, you can see two. One is turned on it's side. This means the "fireball" and continual power. At least that's how that nazis portayed it.

If I am wrong, someone please correct me!

Hi, here's a starting point. :)

http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/swastika.html

Short answer: the swastika or "broken cross" is an ancient symbol that was appropriated by the Nazis. It's got nothing to do with runic lightning bolts or electricity or fireballs or continual power.

All you have to do to make one is to take a basic "+"-shaped cross and turn each of the arms at a 90 degree angle. So it's no wonder that many cultures have come up with it, and it usually means "good luck". Dunno exactly why, you'd have to talk to an anthropologist or psychologist.



See, I know all that. I was even kinda taken back when I saw a swastika on a native american basket in the Pac NW, until I realized it was theirs first. What I am saying is that the two runic symbols of lightning bolts, with one on it's side, is also a swastika. It has a double meaning, in addition to good luck. It pops up in Norse carvings and decorations, and Ol' Hitler may have taken it from that. It's meaning in Norse mythology is what probably made him take it.

I direct you to http://www.tarahill.com/runes/aett_2.html, please look at eihwaz. This is the rune that was used in the S on the SS badges, and is also found twice in any swastika.

Also, a nit to pick, they do symbolize fireballs. The Navajo mythology sees the swastika as a falling star or fireball, and as the flaming wheel of life.

[Sultan Kinkari]

I'm not a bigot, ignorant, or racist. I'm worse. I'm superficial. I judge you not by the color of your skin, but how you carry yourself. By how you dress, and by what kind of car you drive. And, lastly, by the tattoos you choose.


Your defence would be that only an ignorant jerk would think something so narrow minded, and "if you got the chance to know me you'd see I'm no racist".


And the reason that I wouldn't think that a black, asian, or latino with a "nazi derived tattoo" is racist, is because they aren't white. That doesn't mean blacks, asians, or latinos can't be racist, you'll read I never said that.

[sjc]

I read that Hitler may have first seen the Swastika at the Catholic school in his boyhood home. I got this from a book called Pope-puorri, so it may be a bit unreliable. Apparently the priest who ran the school Hitler went to was named something like Hagencreutz which sounded like the German word for the hooked-cross or swastika and so he used it as his symbol. (All of this I read along time ago and I didn't commit it to memory, so I may be missing or distortng some details.)

[D18]

Originally posted by sjc
I read that Hitler may have first seen the Swastika at the Catholic school in his boyhood home. I got this from a book called Pope-puorri, so it may be a bit unreliable. Apparently the priest who ran the school Hitler went to was named something like Hagencreutz which sounded like the German word for the hooked-cross or swastika and so he used it as his symbol. (All of this I read along time ago and I didn't commit it to memory, so I may be missing or distortng some details.)

The master, on the Hitler/swastika connexion:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_156.html

[Sultan Kinkari]

I assume one of Hitler's colleagues suggested to him the swastika for it's definitive value as a good luck charm, meaning "this is good".

From a design standpoint, I am a designer, I like the look of the swastika. It really is a shame that the Nazi's took a symbol found in many churches and cathedrals and gave it hateful connotations.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by KidCharlemagne
I want to get a lightning bolt tattoo for certain personal reasons, but it brings to mind Nazi's and White supremacists. I know that the double lighting bolt symbol is a Nazi sybol, but what about one? Even if it's not technically, do you think people would interpret it as one?

It all really depends on the person. From my life so far, I have met many different people. Some though that I found to be connected with so-called politically incorrect groups had no signs or symbols or anything to allow you to pick them out as belonging to these groups.

[Osip]

Originally posted by Anthracite
Oh my. I'm seeing a new sig!

Una "Winnie died for your sins" Persson [/B]

Glad I could help you out Anthracite!

Osip

[Mortish]

I think the thunderbolt will be fine, but I'll probably never have the guts to get a swastika, especially since I spend a lot of time around Africans and Asians, I'd hate to send out confusing signals. :(

--- G. Raven

If you are interested in swastikas as tattoos, and the whole racism connection, take a look at http://www.bmezine.com. Do a search for swastika. There is a person calling himself ManWoman who is covered in swastika tattoos, paints swastikas, has written a book on "reclaiming swastikas", and has his own website. An interview and a link to his site is provided on the aforementioned website.