Why are you a Dick?

[Satan]

To be exact, how is it that Richard came to be shortened to Dick by many people? I know a lot of shortened names don't make sense - Peggy for Margaret comes to mind - but this one really perplexes me.

Also, what came first - Dick as a name for a person, or dick as an unflattering character accessment of a person?

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Yer pal,
Satan

[Lanna]

To be exact, how is it that Richard came to be shortened to Dick by many people? I know a lot of shortened names don't make sense - Peggy for Margaret comes to mind - but this one really perplexes me.

Complete WAG here, but...

Richard -- Rich
Rich -- Rick
Rick -- Dick

Seems like it would make sense, but I'm probably wrong.


-Lanna

Satan, why do most of your posts have something to do with dick? :D I'm sure some expert will post when dick became synonymus with penis and therefore,an insult. Me,I don't know. That is not my area of expertise ;)

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The poster beneath me is really smart!

Actually,I thought this was a personal post to jodih!

[AHunter3]

It's baby talk. Young toddlers just learning to talk have more problems with some sounds than others; "r" is difficult, "m" also mildly difficult.

Margaret becomes Maggie or Meg (drop the 'r') and then Peggy (switch out m for p).

Richard becomes Dick (switch out r for d).

Molly becomes Polly (m to p again).

Robert becomes Bob (r to b.

and so on.


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Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post

[Tammy]

I don't know about many people, but my ex was named Richard. Toward the end of the marriage, he became Dick to everyone. Years later people still call him Dick... and he wonders why.

[SqrlCub]

Celtic words mutate. Names don't always but mh is the nasla mutation of the letter P in Welsh. I don't know what it would be in Irish or Scotch Gaelic. Margo, which Margeret could have derived from, is an Irish name. My WAG would have it that Irish Gaelic would have p be a mutation of m. Probably the Irish equivalent of the soft mutation in Welsh since it is the most common.

HUGS!
Sqrl

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Move over Satan. ;) Now there's something meatier. http://smallwonder.simplenet.com/COC.html

[ZenBeam]

The one that puzzles me is Jack, for John.

I don't know anyone named Jack, so i'll ask here. Is anyone called Jack really named John, or is Jack also short for something else (Jackson?).

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It is too clear, and so it is hard to see.

[cher3]

My father was named Jack--not John or Jackson, but people often assume it is a nickname. I also have an uncle named Joe, not Joseph.

[AWB]

cher3: I also have an uncle named Joe, not Joseph.

I remember Uncle Joe. Wasn't he the one afraid to cut the cake? :)

[David B]

We have a new coworker whose name is John (and that's the way he signs it) but who goes by Jack.

Obviously, this is because it's shorter, like most nicknames...

[NicePete]

No, not that Uncle Joe. The other one. You know, the one who's moving kinda slow, down at the junction.

[Surgoshan]

I approve of the nickname Jack because my first name is John and my middle name is Daniel. It might seem kind of unusual, but it usually gets a cheer at frat parties when I'm introduced as Jack Daniel and hold up a bottle of whiskey.

[Axel Wheeler]

Somebody's got to ask, and nobody has, so here goes:

What about the etymology of Dick Trickle, famous racecar driver? Has anyone examined the psyche of a man named Richard Trickle who says to himself, "Rather than Richard, or Rich, or Rick, or Richie, or Rickie, or Napoleon Boneaparte, I think I would like to be called Dick. Dick Trickle. Yep - that's me to a T."

Or was he actually given the name Dick, rather than Richard, in which case the question is transferred to his parents.

More likely, once the first kid taunted him, people thought it was even funnier when he tried any other name; His Dick was stuck, so to speak. So he gave up. And right now he's reading this and plotting revenge. "I can buy all of you Straight Dope bastards and feed you to my ravenous pit crew, over whom I enjoy the absolute authority due me as their God."


Complete WAG here, but...

Richard -- Rich
Rich -- Rick
Rick -- Dick

Seems like it would make sense, but I'm probably wrong.


Probably, but let's look at this. The key issue is the Rick -- Dick transition. The real question is, was this done because of the penile implications of Dick, or did that come (he he) later?

Hmm. This tricky Dickie is a bit of a sticky wicky.


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http://secularhumanism.com

[ruadh]

Celtic words mutate. Names don't always but mh is the nasla mutation of the letter P in Welsh. I don't know what it would be in Irish or Scotch Gaelic. Margo, which Margeret could have derived from, is an Irish name. My WAG would have it that Irish Gaelic would have p be a mutation of m. Probably the Irish equivalent of the soft mutation in Welsh since it is the most common.

Nice guess but wrong. There are two possible mutations to an initial consonant sound in Irish: lenition and eclipsis. Lenition puts an h after the m, which changes the sound to either v or w. M cannot be eclipsed.

[anson2995]

If people are going to make fun of your name, why not confront it head on? If you go by "Dick Trickle", then it won't make much sense to taunt you by calling you that.

FWIW, I went to high school with a kid named Richard Hair.

[meek]

It could be worse - my town has a well-known business established by a family named "Hole"

- Harold Hole is one of them.

Guess what his name was shortened to.

What were his parents thinking?

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

[Peter North]

I had a professor named Richard Wiener...ouch!

[Nickrz]

I believe this has turned into another "funny name" thread. Can we please stick to Dick?

[Fyodor]

Picture yourself in a small English village hundreds of years ago. Thanks to King Richard the Lionhearted Richard is a very popular name. In order to differentiate between the dozens of Richards in the area, or even within the same family, variations develop conversationally. Richard, Rich, Dick... Robert, Rob, Bob... Elizabeth, Liz, Beth, Bess...

It's an oral tradition.

[ravenous]

Dick is an oral tradition?

[ravenous]

Doh. Hit send too soon.

Had a friend "Rick". He took to calling himself "Rich". Like anyone's gonna go along with that. So we call him Dick. It fits.

Maybe there's a tradition of Richards being jerks. No offense, good Richards out there. :)

[capybara]

For John: Jack, how about Jacques=John in French (which also ecplains the use of Jake for John, which I've encountered)? Perhaps the others are foreign variant derivations, too... Margaret and Maggie might work-- that initial 'r' is likely under-pronounced in some languages. I can't imagine how that would work for Dick or Bob though.

[capybara]

I think I've just been stupid... John is also Jean, in frenchie... what is Jacques, then? Jacob? Oh, nevermind. Just ignore me while I sit over here in the corner...

[AHunter3]

So I take it y'all don't believe the baby-talk theory?

:::sulking:::
:::I know the good answers and no one believes me:::



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Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post

[NanoByte]

AHunter3:

In no way can I believe 'm' is a relatively hard sound for a baby to make. The little suckers are born with good lip control. Both 'm' and 'p' use the lips, but 'm' takes less energy. All over the world, 'Mama' or something very close to it is used by babies for 'Mother', and it is usually the first word that is used by them. No matter how unrelated the languages, they essentially all use M-words to mean 'mother'.

I would guess 'Dick' and 'Peter' were personal names before they were used to designate a part of the anatomy -- probably in thinking of that part as having somewhat of a mind of its own, and thus needing a personal name (Peter from 'pee-er' from 'pee' from 'piss' (onomatopoeic -- forget the French). Dunno why 'dick' was chosen. It's also British non-vulgar slang for 'guy', right? Maybe that came first, before its anthropomorphic appelation to the organ. Of course the term is also used for 'detective'. My dictionary [Amer Hertg, 2nd Coll Ed, 1982] says these common-noun meanings all came from the personal name. Maybe one or more of the King Richards was a lecher.

As far as 'm' -> 'p', they're both bilabials, but 'm' is more lax. Maybe small kids that got annoyed at some Megs decided to spit out the name in the form of 'Peg'.

M.K.:

I highly doubt the Japanese had anything to do with getting 'Rick' to 'Dick', but their non-retroflexive tongue flap (as in 'sayonara') is used as an attempt at a (retroflexive) 'r', but sounds more like a 'd'. . .well, maybe not so much in the initial position of a word.

Dickrz. . .er. . .I mean. . .Nickrz:

Are you telling us where to stick it?

Ray (Yes, shortened, but never mutilated.)

[wireless]

Nanobyte:

I, too, remember learning that the "m" sound is harder for babies to say. (Try it and think about it: pursing lips, humming...)
No scientific source, but it was a PhD in Dev. Psych. who told me.

This is why so many babies say "da da" before "ma ma". It's because it's easier for them.

[wireless]

Let me add "or so I've been told."

(Yeah, it's a wussy qualifier. But I felt I'd fallen into the pit of "speaking about that of which I know too little" and I'm trying to scramble my way out before I get roasted.)

[Axel Wheeler]

AHunter3 may be on to something, except not because it's easier to say for kids, but because it's funner. Just like saying "funner" rather than "more fun".

Kids love to rhyme, and when you're rhyming everybody's name and you get to Margaret, you have a problem. You're going to say "Margy-Pargy" or something similar. If Meg is already a nickname, you'll say Meggy-Peggy. (You will, dammit!) The whole series probably didn't all happen at once, of course. Each nickname may have evolved in a similar process from preceding nicknames. So we get an historical name trail from "Margaret" to "Peg," and from "George W. Bush" to "Crackhead." Oh. Sorry, that's different.

There's an article on Margaret in a column called the Straight Dope; you really ought to read it!
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_268.html

[tomndebb]

the "M" is not that easy for babies. As noted, above, most kids say "dada" before they say "mama." In fact, kids start out with back of the throat gurgling, and their "defined" sounds move forward on the tongue with simple sounds. They then begin moving back through the tongue positions incorporating more complex vowel combinations than the simple, open mouthed "ah" and "a" (or æ). If we listened more closely among the "gakl" and "kl-ga" sounds that babies make, we'd discover that the first actual word they utter is usually "kaka."

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Tom~

[Kat]

I think I've just been stupid... John is also Jean, in frenchie... what is Jacques, then? Jacob? Oh, nevermind. Just ignore me while I sit over here in the corner...
http://www.babynames.com/ says: From the name JACOB
http://babyzone.com/funstuff.htm says: French form of Jacob "Supplanter."

I could swear I'd read something about Jack/John in SD, but I couldn't find it in the archives. I could also swear I'd read something somewhere that said Jacques was equivalent to James, but I bring that up only in case someone else has heard/read that somewhere and can tell me where.

For Peggy, see: Why is Peggy a nickname for Margaret (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_268.html) by Cecil Adams.

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Your Official Cat Goddess since 10/20/99.

It figures sqrlcub would know about dick ;)

wireless:

I, too, remember learning that the "m" sound is harder for babies to say. (Try it and think about it: pursing lips, humming...)
No scientific source, but it was a PhD in Dev. Psych. who told me.

If you suck on a nipple, you sure as hell know how to purse your lips, and, hey, you don't even need to open your mouth to hum. I mean, if you nudge someone when they're sound asleep, you're likely to get a 'hmmmmm', because it's about the least energetic sound one can make. So, there, I thought about it. Also, psychology types will tell you anything, and no two of them ever agree (because psychology is inherently subjective). Whoever. . .

I went surfing on the Web. (I understand the surf's been up like crazy at Maverick's and one guy got lethally wiped out. Not my scene.) Found this on speech development. Not much help.
http://www.jhu.edu:80/news_info/news/home99/feb99/mama99.html

And at other Websites. . .such is the Web:

"The first words babies say are usually Mama or Dada,. . ."

"Anyway, my little boy said his first word today! Not the usual 'mama' or 'dada', no, my darlin little Harvey's first word was EGG!"

"Kathy Cramer's first words were not "mama" or "dada," but "Skipper" for her four year old dog."

"Toby Altman. . .-her first words weren't 'mama' or 'dada' but a jazzy interpretation of the Campbell Soup commercial, 'Mmmmm good.'"

"A spokesperson for Itsy Bitsy Entertainment, which licenses the Teletubbies in America, says many parents claim their child's first words weren't 'Mama' or 'Dada,' but Teletubby terms like 'Laa Laa' or 'Big Hug'."

"Your toddler's first words were 'You've got mail!' You thought this was way cooler than 'Mama' or 'Dada'."

"At around six months, a baby graduates from cooing to babbling, repeating 'ba-ba-ba' over and over, for example. Later, around eight to
ten months, she'll combine different sounds, such as 'ba-be-go' or 'ba-da-ga'."

"Lindsey likes saying 'blah blah blah' over and over and over and over. . ."

"Another unusual aspect of Williams syndrome is that the onset of language is often delayed. But in some cases, once the child starts talking, language abilities seem to
develop at a faster rate than in a normal child.

Alex Biescar is a good example. Even at the age of three he hadn't uttered a single word, not even mama or dada. Then one day he happened to be at his speech pathologist's office, waiting in the reception area. A whirring floor fan caught his attention, and since Alex shares a common Williams fascination with spinning things, he approached the fan and began staring at it. Concerned that he might stick his fingers into the fan, the receptionist switched it off. Alex switched it back on. She
unplugged it. Alex plugged it back in. Next she switched it off and unplugged it. Alex solved this problem as well. Just then, however, there was a power failure.
Alex flipped the fan's switch a couple of times and nothing happened. He wiggled the plug and nothing happened. Frustrated, he uttered the first words of his life:
'Jesus Christ, this doesn't work!'"

But then I got into some good positions on the heavier waves:
http://www.ling.su.se/konferenser/SpeechCom/abstracts.htm#MacNeilageBDavis

"Comparison of the sound patterns of babbling and early speech with those of languages reveals three common motor properties that were presumably basic to the evolution of speech 1. A tendency towards consonant vowel alternation produced primarily by cycles of mandibular oscillation, providing a 'Frame' for speech, presumably derived initially from ingestive cyclicities. This occurs in a simple form in early vocalization as an alternation between labial stops and nasal consonants, and central vowels ('Pure Frames') The pattern has been characteristic of infants from all 6 language environments studied to date,. . .
.
.
.
Almost all of a sample of over 30 infants from different language communities begin early words containing stops and nasals with a labial consonant, then follow it transvocalically with a coronal consonant, more than twice as often than the reverse sequence."

Then:

A Review of the Babbling Literature
. . . . . . .Dave Johnson
. . . . . .Boston University
Department of Cognitive and Neural Systems
. . . . . . . .May 1995

at:
http://cns-web.bu.edu/pub/djohnson/web_files/cn560_report.html

"For example, {ROUG_LANDBERG_LUNDBERG:88} studied place of articulation, manner of articulation, degree of vowel opening, and assigned babbles to "phonotactic categories" for infants from 1 to 20 months of age. They found that, of the 11 types of place of articulation recognized by the IPA, 92% of the babbles were one of four types: bilabial, dental-alveolar, velar, and glottal; while 4% were palatal, 3% were uvular, 1% were labiodental, and 0% were all of the remaining 4 types of place of articulation. Of the four infants in the studied, three initially produced mostly glottal consonants. In addition, they observed variability among and within infants across the age range studied.

The same study also looked at manner of articulation, 9 of which are recognized by the IPA. They found that the infants in the study produced predominantly
stops, nasals, and fricatives (91%); and few of the others: semi-vowel (4\%), lateral (3%), trill (2%), the remaining three (0%).

{ROUG_LANDBERG_LUNDBERG:88} also studied the vowels and found that the vast majority of the vowels were the /a/ in far, the /ae/ in cat, the /e/ in met, the /u/ in but, the /e/ in gate, and the /i/ in bit. An insignificant number of the other vowels recognized by the IPA were observed during this study.
.
.
.
. . .the consonant repertoire is very similar across linguistic cultures. Consonant frequencies obtained with French infants were similar to those obtained for English and Thai infants {BOYSSON-BARDIES_ET_AL:81b}. But by 10 months, infant vowels are more likely to share many features with vowel
counterparts in the target language {BOYSSON-BARDIES_ET_AL:89}
.
.
.
These results are of interest because they suggest that early linguistic experience (from birth to the onset of babbling) does not affect the babbling of consonants; it is
only after babbling has begun that the infant begins to shape the consonant sounds. Moreover, it suggests that babbling of consonants is innate and is triggered, but
not modified, by auditory input.
.
.
.
Late Babbling and First Words
The continuity hypothesis
In late babbling, the infant typically has a large repertoire of sound, but the repertoire is only a subset of the set he will have at later stages. Moreover, this subset is very similar across linguistic environments.
.
.
."

And then I think I hit pay dirt. . .for your or me?:

"Parent reference

{LOCKE:85} notes that a number of investigators have reported that there is a tendency for words for 'father' to appear earlier than words for 'mother'. Such "sex" references are common across cultures. For example, a Slovenian infant will produce 'ata' earlier than 'mama'. A Czech infant produces 'tata' before 'mama'. In English, 'dada' is produced before 'mama'. {LOCKE:85} summarizes a number of studies on the learning of words and concludes that
"children aged 1;4 to 1;10 were significantly more likely to attempt the name of an object if it contained sounds the children were able to say". Many infants render 'papa' as 'baba' because they may, in fact, perceive [b]s and [d]s as voiceless, unaspirated stops. Also, infants "are more likely to say a bilabial or an alveolar stop than they are to s

[NanoByte]

And, Kat, as to Cecil's taking the name back to the Latin margarita, 'daisy':

You can then take that back to the Greek margarite&macr;s < margaron. Then 'margarine' (never could figure why that's a soft 'g') < Fr. [i]margarique, 'margaric acid', < Gr. margaron. So I think we should also be able to call Peg 'Oleo'.

Ray (But don't spread it around.) (Oh, sorry Nickrz, yeah, we were all supposed to "stick" to that organic name, weren't we.)

[SqrlCub]

Thanks Ruadh. I wondered about Irish Gaelic. I will probably start learning it after I get comfortable with Cymraeg.

HUGS!
Sqrl

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Gasoline: As an accompaniement to cereal it made a refreshing change. Glen Baxter

[wireless]

Great work, NanoByte.
My hat's off to you.
Loved the "caca" crack. lol.

Jack & John are different names.

In different countries:

JOHN - Sean, Ian, Jean, Jan, Hans, Ivan, Gianni
JACK - Jacques, Giaccomo, Jacob/Jakob, Jake

I don't have any idea why/how Jack came to be used as a nickname for John...

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Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html (http://members.aol.com/majormd/index.html)

[NanoByte]

Hey, I thought there might a 'Juan' or two around El Paso. But what's the Spanish equivalent of 'Jack' or 'Jacques'?

Ray (Me you can't "Sue from El Paso"; you have to come to CA-US to do it.)

[counterattackii]

Well, I always heard that Dick is short for Rich, so if your rich your a Dick.

--Dont throw cats at glass houses. They go *THUMP!* - Counterattackii

[Satan]

Wow... Judging from the answeers here to the OP, I'd say none of us know Dick...

Hey Cecil - HELP!!!

Hey, I thought there might a 'Juan' or two around El Paso. But what's the Spanish equivalent of 'Jack' or 'Jacques'?
-Ray


Out on a limb here - Joaquin?

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Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html (http://members.aol.com/majormd/index.html)

[NanoByte]

Well, if 'Jack', 'Jacob' and 'Jacques' are equivalent to 'James', then 'Diego' should work for them in Spanish, I guess, unless there's also a 'Jácobo' or something around.

Ray (Oh, yeah, 'Dick'; that's rich.)

[gypsy]

Tammy
Member posted 10-28-1999 09:09 AM
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I don't know about many people, but my ex was named Richard. Toward the end of the marriage, he became Dick to everyone. Years later people still call him Dick... and he wonders why.

It was well put my dear friend. Now if the curious ones look at posting http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/002213.html/

hey, you be the judge!

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Unforgiven

[heretic]

The Irish equivalent of John is Eoghan, not Sean.

ben