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05-21-1999, 04:06 PM
I detest politics and avoid these discussions whenever possible. But I understand Pat Buchanan in running for president next year. I've heard of him but I don't know if what I've heard about him is true. A lot of people, usually in the form of jokes, liken him to the KKK, Hitler, and so on. What does he really stand for? Does he have racist policies or are these broad jokes with no basis in fact? Seems like he's a big target for these kinds of jokes, along with Jesse Helms (whom I also know nothing about), so I was just curious.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

05-21-1999, 04:13 PM
All you really need to know about Pat is that he was a speechwriter for Richard Nixon and (I believe) came up with the "nattering nabobs of negativism" comment used by the lovely and fragrant Spiro Agnew.

If you insist on learning more, you must read Al Franken's "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot."

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"A friend will help you move house. A best friend will help you move a body."--Alexi Sayle

05-21-1999, 04:17 PM
Buchanan is a fairly right-wing newspaper columnist/TV political commentator. He also espouses things like strong protective tariffs. His style is in-your-face and his speech at the Republican convention turned a lot of people off to the party and helped Clinton win.

He's not KKK like David Duke, and probably isn't the most rabid right-wing Republican running, but he's too far out politically to garner any substantial voter base. This makes him an easy target, especially since reporters see him as fair game.

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www.sff.net/people/rothman (http://www.sff.net/people/rothman)

05-21-1999, 04:20 PM
All you really need to know about Pat is that he was a speechwriter for Richard Nixon

*GASP* So was Ben Stein! I like "Win Ben Stein's Money," but that's neither here nor there.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

05-21-1999, 04:32 PM
I'd like to know, too. He used to represent "the right" on CNN's Crossfire. I'm fairly
liberal (as in Libertarian) but P.B. actually argued a couple of issues effectively enough to change my opinion. I don't know if he always espoused the viewpoint he argued from, but he was pretty hardline 'conservative' on the show.

05-21-1999, 04:33 PM
Pat Buchanan is one of the great promoters of political dichomoty. He divides the U.S. population into two groups: "us" (meaning himself and other conservative, preferably white, heterosexual Christians, who are "real Americans"); and "them" (meaning everybody else, who are presumably all commie pinko liberal anti-Americans).

The joking references linking him to the KKK and Hitler are satiric exaggerations, but they do have a point. In his rhetoric against the evil "them," he sometimes finds himself attacking people who are also the targets of neo-Nazis and Klansmen. Of course, he doesn't promote lynching and genocide, but short of outright criminal activity, he doesn't spend much of his time objecting to the philosophies of these groups. Comparatively speaking, this makes him seem (even if only inadvertently) more sympathetic to them than to (for example) homosexual fighting for equal rights.

05-21-1999, 04:35 PM
I'm 180 degrees removed from Pat's political leanings, but I don't think he's a racist in the David Duke sense. However, Buchanan has advocated curbing immigration, and many people believe he's really saying that the U.S. should restrict itself to "our kind", namely European Christians, preferably those who already speak English.

05-21-1999, 04:49 PM
Hey Gr8Kat,

You mentioned that you like the show "Win Ben Stein's Money", but did you know that I've heard that Art Bell enjoys this same show?...nah, just kidding, but maybe he really does though...

Back on topic:

Pat Buchanan - back in the heat of the Clinton scandal(s) when I was having daily arguments with conservative Republican Clinton haters on this other board that I go to I occasionally would throw old Pat or something he said into their faces. Of course Pat is such an ass that they'd back off a little bit and scramble to disassociate their politics and political affiliation with him. Now does that little ancedote tell you anything about the man? He even embarasses his own party!

The other guy I used to use was Gary Bauer. He's the President of some right-wing organization that hides behind a name something like "Americans for family values" or some misleading crap like that...

If you ask me, they are both extremist assholes that want (as someone already pointed out) everyone to be just like them and their personal ideals.

A few folks where going to great lengths last week to convince me that Art Bell was "dangerous"...no, I have seen dangerous and it is Pat Buchanan, Gary Bauer, and their cronies in the extreme right-wing.



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Contestant #3

05-21-1999, 05:28 PM
IMHO, Pat Buchanan represents the worst of both worlds: he's socially conservative and fiscally liberal (well... fiscally protectionist anyway). Some of his economic ideas sound downright un-Republican. He vehemently opposes any sort of free trade policy. As such, he appeals to white, blue-collar, christian folks who decry the moral decay of the nation but who are also afraid of the big corporate fat-cats shipping their jobs to Mexico (not to mention being afraid of Mexicans coming here and taking their jobs). I also find it amazing that he blatantly uses the phrase "America First", thereby associating himself with the organization back in the '30's (which included some Nazi sympathizers) that wanted to keep the U.S. out of World War II.

Oh, and let's not forget: Pat Buchanan trounced George Bush in the New Hampshire Primary back in '92. Scary!



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"For what a man had rather were true, he more readily believes" - Francis Bacon

05-21-1999, 05:39 PM
Pat Buchanan is an extremely conservative Republican who takes the general ultra-conservative positions (anti-gun-control; anti-abortion; anti-immigration) and extrapolates them to ends that many observers find absurd (such as advocating that a great big wall be put up on the U.S.-Mexico border to prevent illegal Mexican immigration). He's also a big gas-bag, giving exhorting, inflammatory speeches that play on the theme of America being under attack, but such speeches are remarkably thin on actual substance, once you get by the rhetoric. It's the combination of his conservative politics and his combined paranoid and over-wrought speechifying that leads to the comparisons to Hitler -- such as Molly Iven's comment that while she understood his address, she imagined it sounded better in the original German. I don't think she (or other commentators)really think he's a Nazi.

05-22-1999, 05:18 AM
The most hilarious thing about Pat Buchanan is how he has done an about-face and become a communist sympathizer in his knee-jerk support of Slobodon Milosevich. Buchanan is so single-minded in his outright hatred of the Clinton administration, he has become a walking, talking oxymoron. Unfortunately, if you listen to the way the right-wing radio shows are eating up his paradoxocal diatribes, they apparently don't see the enormous credibility lapse as he continues to flog Clinton with anything he can lay his hands on. One can only hope that, as the bull-dog of the right-wingers, his insistence on pushing the public's nose into the turds of Whitewater/Lewinsky/Kosovo will create a backlash and derail support for any Republicans, conservative or moderate.

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TT

"Equal Opportunity means everybody has the same chance at being incompetent."
--Dr. Lawrence J. Peter

05-22-1999, 03:05 PM
I believe "Nattering nabobs of negativism" was the work of William Safire, who was an Agnew speech writer. "Nabob" is not part of Pat's vocabulary.

05-22-1999, 06:32 PM
I'm not sure if Pat is an oxymoron, but I'm positive he's a moron. :)

05-22-1999, 07:45 PM
Pat Buchanan is Joe McCarthy reincarnated. He exists, politically speaking, only to feed the fears of those who would listen to him. If he finds himself in upcoming presidential fray, I have only this to say: Be afraid. Be very afraid.

05-23-1999, 03:00 AM
Buchanan sure is evil, but I'm not sure he's inconsistant. From what I can tell, he's so reactionary, he's practically fascist. As much as he hates Commies, he can probably sympathize with ethnic cleansing.

05-23-1999, 07:14 PM
Buchanan has advocated curbing immigration, and many people believe he's really saying that the U.S. should restrict itself to "our kind", namely European Christians, preferably those who already speak English.

He's actually said this in so many words. A few years ago he rhetorically asked his listeners to consider who would fit in better in this country, Zulu or English immigrants.

05-24-1999, 02:31 PM
Oh boy, the Internet is great, but to find an exact anything from 9 years ago... dead links galore.

The quote in which Pat Buchanan denies people could be asphyxiated by diesel fumes comes from "The Heresies of Pat Buchanan," _New Republic_, Oct. 22, 1990, pp.26-27. I also found an essay on the subject at http://world.std.com/~rjg/buchanan.html that has more quotes from Buchanan, including that he thinks that Holocaust Survivor Syndrome is actually "group fantasies of martyrdom and heroics." The cites this site provides are:

1. _Denying the Holocaust_ / Deborah Lipstadt, ISBN 0-452-27274-2; pp. 5-6; p.238, Note 13. Jacob Weisberg, "The Heresies of Pat Buchanan," _New Republic_, Oct. 22, 1990, pp.26-27.

2. Buchanan, Patrick, "'Ivan the Terrible' - More Doubts," _New York Post_, Saturday, March 17, 1990.

3. _Denying the Holocaust_ / Deborah Lipstadt, ISBN 0-452-27274-2; p.6; p.238, Note 14. Ibid., p.26"



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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

05-24-1999, 02:51 PM
From http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/buchanan.html (which also has many quotes from Buchanan regarding blacks, immagrants, women, and Democracy):

ON JEWS:

Buchanan referred to Capitol Hill as "Israeli-occupied territory."
(St. Louis Post Dispatch, 10/20/90)

During the Gulf crisis: "There are only two groups that are beating the drums for war in the Middle East -- the Israeli defense ministry and its 'amen corner' in the United States." ("McLaughlin Group," 8/26/90)

In a 1977 column, Buchanan said that despite Hitler's anti-Semitic and genocidal tendencies, he was "an individual of great courage...Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path." (The Guardian, 1/14/92)

Writing of "group fantasies of martyrdom," Buchanan challenged the historical record that thousands of Jews were gassed to death by diesel exhaust at Treblinka: "Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." (New Republic, 10/22/90) Buchanan's columns have run in the Liberty Lobby's Spotlight, the German-American National PAC newsletter and other publications that claim Nazi death camps are a Zionist concoction.

Buchanan called for closing the U.S. Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations, which prosecuted Nazi war criminals, because it was "running down 70-year-old camp guards." (New York Times, 4/21/87)

Buchanan was vehement in pushing President Reagan -- despite protests -- to visit Germany's Bitburg cemetery, where Nazi SS troops were buried. At a White House meeting, Buchanan reportedly reminded Jewish leaders that they were "Americans first" -- and repeatedly scrawled the phrase "Succumbing to the pressure of the Jews" in his notebook. Buchanan was credited with crafting Ronald Reagan's line that the SS troops buried at Bitburg were "victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration
camps." (New York Times, 5/16/85; New Republic, 1/22/96)

After Cardinal O'Connor criticized anti-Semitism during the controversy over construction of a convent near Auschwitz, Buchanan wrote:
"If U.S. Jewry takes the clucking appeasement of the Catholic cardinalate as indicative of our submission, it is mistaken. When Cardinal O'Connor of New York seeks to soothe the always irate Elie Wiesel by reassuring him
'there are many Catholics who are anti-Semitic'...he speaks for himself. Be
not afraid, Your Eminence; just step aside, there are bishops and priests ready to assume the role of defender of the faith." (New Republic, 10/22/90)

The Buchanan '96 campaign's World Wide Web site included an article blaming the death of White House aide Vincent Foster on the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad -- and alleging that Foster and Hillary Clinton were Mossad spies. (The campaign removed the article after its existence was reported by a Jewish on-line news service; Jewish Telegraphic Agency, 2/21/96.)

In his September 1993 speech to the Christian Coalition, Buchanan declared: "Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free." (ADL
Report, 1994)

Of Hitler, he is also quoted as saying he was "an individual of great courage, a soldier's soldier in the Great War" and "a leader steeped in the history of Europe."

I'm not Jewish, but Oy Gevalt! I would sooner elect Clinton for 4 more years than have this man speaking on behalf of our country. You think maybe I kid?

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

05-24-1999, 03:45 PM
As to whether any of this makes Buchanan a Holocaust denier, I submit this excerpt of the definition of Holocaust denial from Robert Carroll's Skeptic's Dictionary www.skepdic.com (http://www.skepdic.com) :

The malicious treatment of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis is referred to as the Holocaust. It has become a symbol of evil in our times. Like many symbols, the Holocaust has become sacrosanct. To many people, both Jews and non-Jews, the Holocaust symbolizes the horror of genocide against the Jews. Some modern anti-Semites have found that attacking the Holocaust causes as much suffering to some Jews as attacking Jews themselves. The term for attacking any aspect of the symbology or mythology of the Holocaust is "Holocaust Denial". It seems to be the main motivation for the Institute for Historical Review http://www.ihr.org/index.html and its Journal of Historical Review which since 1980 has been publishing articles attacking the accuracy of this or that claim about the Holocaust. Yes, one "historical" journal devoted almost exclusively to the issue of making the Holocaust seem like an exaggeration of biased historians. This institute was founded in 1978; it claims to be a "research, educational and publishing center devoted to truth and accuracy in history." If truth and historical accuracy were the only goals of this group, I doubt that it would cause such an uproar. However, it seems that its promoters are more concerned with hatred than with truth. Thus, even those inaccuracies which they correctly identify are met with scorn and derision. For they never once deal with the central question of the Holocaust. They deal with numbers: were there six million or four million or ? Jews who died or were killed? They deal with technical issues: could this shower have been used as a gas chamber? Were these deaths due to natural causes or not? They deal with minor facts: did Hitler issue a Final Solution order or not? If so, where is it? What they do not deal with is the question of racial laws, of arresting and imprisoning millions of people in several countries for the crime of "race," of herding people together like animals and transporting them to "camps" where millions died of disease, malnutrition, or were murdered. What the Holocaust deniers do not deal with is racial hatred. I do not wonder why. (emphasis added)

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

05-24-1999, 07:44 PM
As a more trivial part of this thread, there is the fact that this fine law and order candidate was hauled downtown during his freshman year at Georgetown for assaulting two cops over a speeding ticket. (I've seen copies of the article and a couple attestations to that fact in a display at Lauinger Library [G-town's campus libes] on "Georgetown in the Sixties".)
That's two things we have in common - our birthday (2 Nov) and our alma mater. Thank God that's all. I think it's too damn much, personally.

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All Hail Unca Cecil, or the next best thing available!

05-24-1999, 11:11 PM
Pat Buchanan grosses me out. Icky, icky, icky. I'm so glad I live up here in Canada, where the worst we have to deal with is Ernst Zundel. In his case, *everyone* knows he's a crackpot.

05-25-1999, 01:09 AM
Evidentally he's somewhat of a Holocaust denier, too. I did a little Internet research (not that I doubt your opinions or fine minds) and found that in 1990 he made a statement that he didn't believe people could have been killed in the manner that Jews were killed at Treblinka (ie, asphyxiated with diesel fumes). Holocaust deniers try to undermine the horror of the Holocaust by questioning all of the details--could people have really been killed this way? Did 6,000,000 people die or was it really "only" 5,000,000 or 4,000,000? Did Hitler really order the execution of Jews in writing? And so on...

To think he could in any way be aligned with these scum makes my blood boil.

For more info, see http://www.skepdic.com/nazism.html
http://www.galaxycast.com/galaxy_editorials/editorial4.html

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

05-25-1999, 01:42 AM
I have to take issue here, Gr8Kat. The Holocaust deniers that I have heard claim that the entire Holocaust was some big hoax, which is, of course, a load of crap. I have never heard the quote you mention, but "I don't think that you could kill thousands of people with diesel fumes" is not logically equivalent to "I don't believe there was a holocaust." Perhaps Pat Buchanon was doubting that the Nazis would have used this method (I thought they used cyanide gas or nerve gasses. Diesel exhaust is certainly not the most toxic substance they had available.) Can you provide a cite for the quote? Perhaps the exact wording will help.

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"I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms." -The Secret of Monkey Island

05-25-1999, 01:56 AM
I read the article from the second URL, and the author makes the logical fallacy I describe in my first response. While people have killed themselves with car exhaust, this is the kind of method you choose when you're hoping someone will come along and stop you. Mass execution by truck fumes just seems to strike me as an amaturish way to kill people. And we know the Nazis were anything but amatures. In any event, the huge amounts of carbon dioxide would smother you long before any signs of carbon monoxide poisoning show up. Also, this author is not exactly objective. Can anyone find a quote from Time or USA Today or somesuch?

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"I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms." -The Secret of Monkey Island

05-25-1999, 10:36 AM
I'm pretty vehemently anti-Buchanan (for most of the reasons stated in the posts above) but the one issue I wound up agreeing with him on was his taking George Bush to task for wanting to grant (or keep?) China's Most Favored Nation status. He basically asked wh we should grant them MFN when they've got a horrible track record of human rights abuses- something we strongly consider when looking at the MFN status of most other countries. Whether this is an extension of his xenophobic "Us vs. Them" (Them= godless commies) or a truly moral stand I really can't say. But its about the only thing I've agreed with him on.

Side note: My friend's brother is a staunch Buchananite. He doesn't believe in "Evil-lution" or "them scientists tryin' to take your money" but he'll lap up anything Falwell has to say.

05-28-1999, 07:52 AM
Gr8Kat said:The cites this site provides are:
1. _Denying the Holocaust_ / Deborah Lipstadt, ISBN 0-452-27274-2; pp. 5-6; p.238, Note 13. Jacob Weisberg, "The Heresies of Pat Buchanan," _New Republic_, Oct. 22, 1990, pp.26-27.
...
3. _Denying the Holocaust_ / Deborah Lipstadt, ISBN 0-452-27274-2; p.6; p.238, Note 14. Ibid., p.26"
Pulling out my copy of Lipstadt's book (which I haven't read yet, mind you, but it looks good on my bookshelf), I find:

P. 5-6: "Patrick Buchanan...used his widely syndicated column to express views that come straight from the scripts of Holocaust deniers. He argued that it was physically impossible for the gas chambers at Treblinka to have functioned as a killing apparatus because the diesel engines that powered it could not produce enough carbon monoxide to be lethal. Buchanan's 'proof' was a 1988 incident in which ninety-seven passengers on a train in Washington, D.C., were stuck in a tunnel as the train emitted carbon monoxide fumes. Because the passengers were not harmed, Buchanan extrapolated that the victims in a gas chamber using carbon monoxide from diesel engines would also not have been harmed. He ignored the fact that the gassings at Treblinka took as long as half an hour and that the conditions created when people are jammed by the hundreds into small enclosures, as they were at Treblinka, are dramatically different from those experienced by a group of people sitting on a train. Asked where he obtained this information, Buchanan responded, 'Somebody sent it to me.' Buchanan has also referred to the 'so-called Holocaust Survivor Syndrome.' According to him, this involves 'group fantasies of martyrdom and heroics.'* I am not suggesting that Patrick Buchanan is a Holocaust denier. He has never publicly claimed that the Holocaust is a hoax. However, his attacks on the credibility of survivors' testimony are standard elements of Holocaust denial. Buchanan's ready acceptance of this information and reliance on it to make his arguments are disturbing, for this is how elements of Holocaust denial find their way into the general culture. During the 1992 presidential campaign, when Buchanan was seeking the Republican nomination, he refused to retract these contentions. Nontheless few of his fellow journalists were willing to challenge him on the matter."

"*Buchanan's statements were made as part of his defense of John Demjanjuk, a retired Cleveland auto worker accused of being Ivan the Terrible, notorious camp guard and a mass murderer at Treblinka. It is not Buchanan's defense of Demjanjuk with which I take issue--it is his use of denial arguments to do so. Buchanan has consistently opposed any prosecution of Nazi war criminals."


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"It's a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense." -- James Randi

05-28-1999, 10:15 PM
Excellent research job from David. Thanks.

In the first couple of years after the invasion of Poland, the Nazis and their allies used mass shootings and gassing using diesel fumes to murder people. It wasn't until about 1942 that they built the big death camps like Auschwitz to murder people using cyanide gas. Of course, there is no doubt that their murderous anti-Semitism went well back before that date...that's just when the big death camps were built.

William F. Buckley wrote a book a couple of years ago called "In Search of Anti-Semitism". In it he accused Buchanan, in a low-key way, of being unconsciously anti-Semitic. Buckley does not believe that Buchanan hates Jews as individual human beings, but he does think that based on Buchanan's extensive statements on Israel and the Holocaust, something causes him to dislike Jews in the abstract. I respect Buckley as a decent person with generally good judgment, and I'm prepared to take his opinion seriously, especially when he breaks the Eleventh Commandment by doing it.

Don't waste any sleep worrying over whether Buchanan is going to get elected President. It won't happen.

Gr8Kat, I note you are extremely well-supplied with anti-Buchanan information. Hope your original post wasn't a troll.

05-29-1999, 02:59 PM
Lawrence said:Excellent research job from David. Thanks.
You're quite welcome.

And my wife wonders why I keep all these books on my bookshelves. ;)


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"It's a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense." -- James Randi

06-01-1999, 03:55 PM
Gr8Kat, I note you are extremely well-supplied with anti-Buchanan information. Hope your original post wasn't a troll.

Gosh, no. Like I said, I saw the way everyone's posts were going and decided to do a little research on my own. I just plugged "Pat Buchanan" into a search engine and tried to read everything it gave me, pro and anti. I guess I was prejudiced when I began my search based on all the opinions of Buchanan that I'd already gathered, but the anti-Buchanan sites made a much bigger impression on me than the pro.

On a side note, I was highly amused that the search engine I used suggested I add, among other words, "delusional" to my search. Even the search engine doesn't agree with the man :)

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

06-02-1999, 10:24 AM
Quayle is a better choice for Pres in 2000 than Buchanan. He is a better speaker:

"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful.
How true that is."
-- Vice President Dan Quayle

"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."
-- Vice President Dan Quayle