America Bashing by MHL: Jealousy, Bigotry, or Ignorance?

[Mr.Zambezi]

Posted by Mary Hart's legs on the "Bill of no rights" thread:Allow my heart to pump purple puppy piss in pride for the the Sickest nation on earth -America.
It does make me sooo sick to listen to how great American Foreign Policy is when the last century provide ample proof America is the Number one Terrorist state in the world.

American interests have funded the destruction of every Central American country that has ever made the attempt to for an independant and democratic nationalistic government that didn't suit the American interest.

Now, if I said similarly derogatory things about another country, it would sound like I was bigoted. For example, when Nightgirl goes off about the "mexicans" or the "Japs"

Mary Hart's Legs here seems to think that the converse is true with the US: That he who is proud of the US is a moron.

Furthermore, the statments are, at best hyperbolic. Clearly this was meant as an insult to those of us who Like the US.

And I would like to point out, Mary, that thinking highly of one's country is not the same as either a) pissing on all other countries or b) agreeing with every single thing that one's country does.

So is she jealous, ignorant or bigoted?

{BTW, anyone know what country she is from?}

[Mr.Zambezi]

Whoops, just saw that MHL is from Canada.

[Prose]

she is neither.

Though Canada is highly Americanized by pop culture, swarms of trash on the television, we are not as nearly as insipid as Americans.
But there are also many other countries are can be just as ingorant and corrupt as the U.S.

In fact, there are too many countries who are more so corrupt than the U.S., the problem being is that the U.S. silently sanctions the behaviour of those governments by not letting got of debt incurred, by putting trade sanctions on those countries, so that even if the countries wanted to do trade to create some sort of infastructure, they couldn't because there's no money.

The U.S. should adopt the "back-door"policy that Canada has(flog me for all I care, we're making a difference).

This being with Cuba, through medicines, and various medical facilities.
With China is business, trade, putting people to work-if you work, you can afford food....

Besides too, why would we want to be American when we have everything you do, and a whole lot fucking more.

Many of the best or most popular(whether I like them matters not) directors, actors, comedians, and musicians come out of Canada.
Leslie Neilson, Martin Short, Jim Carrey, Atom Egoyan, Sarah Polley, David Cronenburg, Norman Jewison, James Cameron, Mike Myers,
Alanis Morrisette(I don't like but is popular), Celin Dion(I don't like but is popular), Eric Clapton(his father was part of the Canadian military during WW2), Moist, Treble Charger, The Tragically Hip, The Matthew Goode Band, Sarah McLachlan, Wild Strawberries, Ashley McIssac, Bryan Adams(done so much for breast cancer research)
Even two of the world's largest supermodels came from Canada: Linda Evangelista, and Shalome.
And hockey: Wayne Gretzky.

Plus a thousand other accomplishments, but this is taking too long already.

quote me, do whatever, it doesn't really matter, because just because we're smaller than you doesn't mean that we haven't got lots to give, and there's so much more to us than there is in any of you.
Oh yeah penicillin, a Canadian doctor discovered and perfected that.
Know where Disney gets probably close to half it's animators? Sheridan College in Southern Ontario
Know where Microsoft gets many of it's programmmers? That's Waterloo, in Southern Ontario.

Know why so many more Canadians are less sick than Americans (despite huge cutbacks), that's because of OHIP-medical coverage.

anyways
have a great day
:D

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I am a fire whose flames lick and spit at the boundless sky forever desiring wonderous consummation
-me

[Prose]

I forgot John Candy, Blue Rodeo,in my fevor.

And the fact that our Prime Ministers(that's right,President no thankx) doesn't have all sorts of sorrid backgrounds, and even when they do NO ONE CARES HERE, for christ sakes Americans care too much about what happens in everyone elses fucking life.

And there has only been one assassination in Canadian history during the 1800's, Upper Canada-on a man named Mcgee(I believe, it's been a while since gr.8 history class).
Where as American's are constantly turning their heads to see what boogyman is behind them.
sheesh,
Billy Bishop
Great Big Sea


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I am a fire whose flames lick and spit at the boundless sky forever desiring wonderous consummation
-me

[UncleBeer]

What? Prose, I think you should either re-write your post or change your user name. I

Americans may be more insipid, but Canadians are more vapid.

[Mullinator]

Ah, dear sweet Prose. While I (and many others regardless of homeland) could parse your posts into bite-sized tidbits of insipidity, I choose to instead let your statements as a whole speak for themselves.

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Have you voted for your favorite, huggable Mullinator today?

[cleosia]

Prose,

If Canada is so great, why are all the people you mention coming to America? :p

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Bitch by Birth

[Geoff K]

Those Canadians are so cute. :)

[PUNdit]

Prose stated:
Oh yeah penicillin, a Canadian doctor discovered and perfected that.

Er, no. Penicillin was discovered by Sir Alexander Fleming, an English Doctor. The method for producing large quantities of usable penicillin was developed by a joint effort of drug companies in the US and England.


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"You can be smart or pleasant. For years I was smart.
I recommend pleasant."
Elwood P. Dowd

[Prose]

Michael Ondaatje(The English Patient)
Timothy Findley
Farley Mowat(Never Cry Wolf)
Margret Atwood(Alias Grace, Handmaid's Tale)
Leonard Cohen(one of the world's greatest poets)

whew, this list is quite long.

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I am a fire whose flames lick and spit at the boundless sky forever desiring wonderous consummation
-me

[Prose]

why are they coming to America? great question since they all live here, and only work there

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I am a fire whose flames lick and spit at the boundless sky forever desiring wonderous consummation
-me

[Prose]

question for you, why are more and more movies being shot in Canada?
because it's cheaper and cleaner.
Question, why does America ship so much of it's hazardas waste here to Canada?( I don't know why we let them, I'm not government)

[UncleBeer]

Though Canada is highly Americanized by pop culture...

And then you go to compile a tremendous list of Canadian pop culture figures as proud accomplishments. Oh, the irony!

[mouthbreather]

My God.

I'm not anti-Canadian in the slightest, but would a different Canadian get in here to defend their homeland? This is getting pretty fucking ugly with Prose being the only defender.

[ReservoirDog]

Sounds like somebody has got an inferiority complex.

On your list of "talent", is that the world famous Treble Charger, or just somebody we've never heard of?

Oh, and don't be too proud of Martin Short, for cryin' out loud. I don't go bragging about Gilbert Gottfried. Or did you bastards send him to us as well?

[Prose]

irony...yes very ironic since it wasn't only popculture I listed, but you didn't answer my question.
here's 3 more, Marconi(emmigrated to Canada, became a Canadian citizen)
Alexander Graham Bell(Scottish emmigrant, Canadian citizen)
And the man who created time zones(name eludes me now)also a Canadian citizen

[Mr.Zambezi]

Actually, I love Canada. I spent much time there during my first 18 years and go back whenever I can.

Why do you feel the need to stand up for Canada by bashing the US? Why not pick on France. Sheesh, like we are all keeping a count of who has more successfull actors to determine which country is better.

Now leave us at once or we shall taunt you again!

BTW, anyone notice that Prose and MHL both showed up at teh same time and have roughly the same number of posts?

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"The robbed that smile,
Steal something from the thief." ---WS, Othello I.III.204

[WallyM7]

I just don't get it. Most of my friends are Anti-American. Hell, even my son is. Their reasons are too numerous to mention here, so let me just say that the vast majority of those reasons don't hold up to scrutinity.

Some of the reasons are only partially right, some are vague, some are prejudicial, and the vast majority are just plain fucking wrong. It frustrates me to no end.

And what pisses me off the most is the fact that it's a lucky thing America is our next door neighbour, otherwise we would have been easily conquered by any country in the world, including the frigging Vatican.

But we Canadians are too moronic to know that.

Fuck, I hate America bashing. I am so fucking sick and tired of it that no one dares mention it in my presence anymore because it always degenerates into a shouting match.

Get your facts straight people, or just shut the fuck up!

I feel a little better now.

[Prose]

no Gilbert's all yours, and as for Treble Charger, of course you wouldn't know them-they're still too small.
You wouldn't know half the talent that comes out of this country even though it's on your television screens 24/7/365

[Elmer J. Fudd]

Prose is doing for Canadians what Sentinal has done for Americans.

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Elmer J. Fudd,
Millionaire.
I own a mansion and a yacht.

[Prose]

gee I didn't notice even who MHL was, until the thread came up.

:D
anyways, why bash anymore since in my heart I know I'd never live there(the U.S.) and will only be happy here.
'Nuff said.
my last post on this inane subject

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I am a fire whose flames lick and spit at the boundless sky forever desiring wonderous consummation
-me

[Mr.Zambezi]

question for you, why are more and more movies being shot in Canada?
because it's cheaper and cleaner.
Question, why does America ship so much of it's hazardas waste here to Canada?( I don't know why we let them, I'm not government)

Well, since you asked....Canada is not cheaper than the us. It is a lot more expensive because of your weak currency, high taxes and that fact that you rely heavily on imports. Christ, the times I have been to Canada I can't believe how expensive it is.

Clean, yes, Canada is clean and the people, as they are in most places, are wonderful.

Canada let's them bring in the hazardous waste because they need the money.

I know that there has to be somebody more fun to flame than this.

John Doozle: Welsh janitor (came to US and changed citizenship
Joe whogivesafuck: Polish Monkey Spanker (Came to US, Died while taking citizenship test.)

[Squee]

Here is another Canadian's opinion (http://www.snopes.com/quotes/sinclair.htm) of Americans.

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The most rewarding part was when I got my money!
-Dr. Nick Riviera

[Squee]

Here is another Canadian's opinion (http://www.snopes.com/quotes/sinclair.htm) of Americans.

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The most rewarding part was when I got my money!
-Dr. Nick Riviera

[Squee]

Damn.....so good I had to post it twice.
Sorry...

[UncleBeer]

Well, that was fun.

[ReservoirDog]

Originally posted by Prose:
You wouldn't know half the talent that comes out of this country even though it's on your television screens 24/7/365

I agree, but I wonder why that is? Most folks simply do not know that many of "our" entertainers are from up north. Is it because most Americans and Canadians are just so damned similar, in culture, in dress, in accent? Do the Hollywood hopefuls from Canada intentionally obscure their heritage, for fear of bias? Is there any bias toward Canadians (besides on this board), meaning does anyone really think that the masses would be less likely to accept their work if they knew they were not American?

We know that Ar-nuld is from Austria, Mr. Connery is from Scotland, etc, etc. I guess maybe it is the accents, or lack thereof.

[tomndebb]

My guess would be that a Canadian in Hollywood would be looking for work, not "work as a Canadian." I can't remember ever hearing about a Canadian actor hiding their nationality; they just don't make an issue of it.

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Tom~

[Crystalguy]

Here in South Florida, we are blessed, cursed actually, by an annual influx of Canadians, mostly from Quebec and Montreal. I most sincerely wish that every one of them felt as fervently pro-Canadian as Prose. If they did, maybe they would stay the hell home.

[Pooch]

Originally posted by Prose:
question for you, why are more and more movies being shot in Canada?
because it's cheaper and cleaner.
Question, why does America ship so much of it's hazardas waste here to Canada?( I don't know why we let them, I'm not government)

Answer, because it's cheaper and cleaner.

[WallyM7]

Crystalguy, welcome to the club.

The rest of Canada can't stand Quebecers
either.

With good cause.

Anybody that wants to flame me on this score should be aware that I am well able to defend this assertion. So come and get me.

[Nutty Bunny]

And don't forget those great Canadians, Mr. Dressup and the Friendly Giant. :)

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"Don't look at me--I'm irrelevant."

[neuro-trash grrrl]

Terriffic. Americans hate Canadians, Canadians hate Americans, everybody hates Quebecquois. Should we descend into Balkan-style internecine warfare now, or wait a few years?

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An infinite number of rednecks in an infinite number of pickup trucks shooting an infinite number of shotguns at an infinite number of road signs will eventually produce all the world's great works of literature in Braille.

[Monty]

Originally posted by mouthbreather:
My God.

I'm not anti-Canadian in the slightest, but would a different Canadian get in here to defend their homeland? This is getting pretty fucking ugly with Prose being the only defender.



MB: That's because spelling, grammar, and logic (in no special order) are all foreign to Prose as evidenced in her first post in this thread. Sad, isn't it?

Terriffic. Americans hate Canadians, Canadians hate Americans, everybody hates
Quebecquois.

Hey, don't forget Americans hating Americans.
I hate all those damned loudmouth Americans. At least Canadians can keep their damn mouths shut most of the time :)

[NicePete]

1. How did this thread get hijacked to Canada? Did anybody bash Canada or Canadians? There are certainly some wonderful folks from there. Gee whiz, sounds like a nice place to live, if you like snow.

2. Wasn't the OP asking about why it's OK to stereotype and bash Americans? It's unacceptable to make these generalizations about anybody else, why can you spout this crap about us? It's ironic. Your posts supposedly showing our ignorance and crudity demonstrate your own level of intelligence and enlightenment.

3. What the hell does it mean to say a country is "ignorant and corrupt". Do you mean the land? the government? every person in it?

I consider myself neither ignorant nor corrupt. Of course, I may be mistaken. However, in my wide and varied experience with my fellow countrymen, I have met persons who could ably converse on countless subjects, whose mental facilities were dazzling. Likewise, I have encountered the occasional American moral paragon.

Since we're throwing around generalizations here, Prose, please provide your descriptions of the following countries:

America: Ignorant and corrupt
Mexico:
Italy:
Poland:
Japan:
Russia:
China:
Scotland:
Ireland:
France:
Greece:

Now, please describe the following ethnic and/or religious groups:

Jews:
Blacks:
Latinos:
Arabs:
Asians:

People should be judged as individuals. You should be thankful that the Teeming Millions don't form their opinions about all Canadians based upon your level of intelligence and development.

Pinhead.


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Plunging like stones from a slingshot on Mars.

[Mr.Zambezi]

Thanks Frank. I wouldn't mind flaming someone, but I don't have anything bad to say about Canada, per se. And where is Mary Hart who is always so willing to bash America on other threads but seems unwilling to defend this practice?



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"The robbed that smile,
Steal something from the thief." ---WS, Othello I.III.204

[mrblue92]

You guys might want to check out Prose's web site (http://publish.uwo.ca/~mrpech/mywebpg.html), especially this page (http://publish.uwo.ca/~mrpech/mystats.htm) in which she points out "Mom & Dad: yes". Um... OK... Draw your own conclusions.

[Squee]

mrblue92, what's your point? Don't you have parents?

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The most rewarding part was when I got my money!
-Dr. Nick Riviera

[tomndebb]

I was more impressed that she actually keeps track of where her currants are.

[Max Torque]

Question:

Is everyone mentally imagining Celine Dion's oddball French-esque accent (like Ana Gasteyer does it on SNL) when they read Prose, or is it just me?

"It is this site from which I got the most amazing backgrounds for my pages." hehehe....

[mrblue92]

mrblue92, what's your point? Don't you have parents?

::running around the house::

Geez, I thought I had them tied up around here somewhere.

[bj0rn]

And I would like to point out, Mary, that thinking highly of one's country is not the same as either a) pissing on all other countries or b) agreeing with every single thing that one's country does.
how come you take it personally when someone is speaking against america when you are not one who suffers from the american foreign policy. it would be the sickest foreign policy from an "advanced" country. kind of makes you wonder if "advanced" is the correct word. it is true that america tries to force their political and governmental ways onto nations that have one america doesnt like. you could call it "civilized but brutal warfare".
point being that even if you live in america and like the "american way", nobody is connecting the insults towards the stupidity of america to you personally.

bj0rn - youve got an ego the size of a country eh?

[Mr.Zambezi]

Ahh, Bjorn, the good old standby America Basher!

First of all, The US generally gets involved in countries that are a) hostile and belligerent, b) oppressive to their own people c) enemies of the US or d) communist, which I would argue is the same as "b".

That said, I am an isolationist, so the comments about the US, don't necesarily pertain to me.

I do Love the US and it does make me angry to hear bigots such as yourself slam us. When you say that America is a ridiculous culture with no value, well, you are talking about the group with which I identify, and which I am a member of.

By your logic, I could say "Niggers are ignorant smelly bastards" and not expect any single black person to take offense because I was insulting the group and not a specific individual.

Your argument is used by many bigots when they say "I have lots of gay friends, and I'm not saying they're all bad, but Gays are malodorous perverts who should be jailed."

Sorry, your logic is flawed.

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"The robbed that smile,
Steal something from the thief." ---WS, Othello I.III.204

[cleosia]

Checked out Prose's stats. It's nice to see how hard-headed and opinionated she has managed to become by 21. Gives us something to look forward to when she get to be 40.

By the way, I think she's just scared that Canada will become the next state in the United States. (That should set her off.)

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Bitch by Birth

[Mr.Zambezi]

No, Mr.Blue, all idiots use generalizations.

hold it...

[Kyla]

Stop it. Argh. Cut it OUT.

I'm an American, and I like the US. I've lived and travelled abroad, and I can say that while the US has problems, they're nothing compared to some of the places I've been (and I really dig some of those places anyway!).

I've never been to Canada, but I'm sure it's a very nice place. In fact, I'm sure EVERYWHERE is a nice place. I lived in a war zone for a year, and it was a very nice place, too! Everyone calm down and stop being so defensive - likewise, stop attacking other peoples' countries. It just makes you come off looking like an ignorant jerk.

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~Harborina

"This is my sandbox. I'm not allowed to go in the deep end. That's where I saw the leprechauns."

[mrblue92]

Yea, only idiots use generalizations!

Um, wait a second...

::running for cover::

[AzRaek]

Whenever someone picks on my country, I remind them that they are damned lucky we are fat,lazy, stupid bastards. The last time a nation's citizens were on the same wavelength, they started WWII, which we had to end. Sure, we had a little help.



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I'm not a fallen angel, I'm a risen demon.

[JillGat]

[[Question, why does America ship so much of it's hazardas waste here to Canada?( I don't know why we let them, I'm not government)]]

And that's the important point. Why does the Canadian government allow such "hazardas" dumping in your country?

[zoony]

Please be advised

Perfect Illustration to Follow:

For all its faults, I woulnd't want to live anywhere else but America (I have traveled and seen much of the world). This IS the greatest country as far as I'm concerned, and I'm proud to be a citizen. Anyone who thinks we suck doesn't have to come here and that's just fine with me!

...as compared to:

Whenever someone picks on my country, I remind them that they are damned lucky we are fat,lazy, stupid bastards. The last time a nation's citizens were on the same wavelength, they started WWII, which we had to end. Sure, we had a little help.

The comments of the horrendously misnomered "prose" notwithstanding, the remarks in the second quote are really closer to the issue.

I have been to the U.S. on numerous occasions, lived there for the better part of 6 years, and hold dual citizenship. I quite like the U.S., and many of the people I have met. I think that, like any other country, the U.S. has its share of problems; we just get to hear about them more due to our proximity and morbid fascination with American culture.

I have had numerous discussions with Mr.Z. regarding our perceptions of the relative freedom and generaly benefits to being an American over a Canadian, and vice-versa. The best thing to remember is that its important to love the place you're from. Go right ahead, believe firmly that it's the best damned place anyone could ever want to be.

And while the 'points' raised by the ignorant are as irrelevant and puerile as the intellect that brings them up, so too are the responses that they provoke.

AzRaek, unless your real name is Gen. D.Eisenhower, I don't see that a 'we' that includes you has sweet piss-all to do with WWII. Many other countries were doing very much more with what little they had for a much longer period of time before the U.S. added its pivotal-but-nonetheless-belated assistance.

And, Mr.Z, maybe you oughta add item e) to your list of reasons for US intervention; that being endowed with large quantities of oil. While the US-led intervention in Kuwait was admirable and wholly correct, they didn't seem to eager to get in on the bloodshed in places like Somalia or the Balkans, which fall squarely under categories a) and b) of your list.

That being said, I'd just like to apologize to the rest of the world for Celine Dion.

Z



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All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

[Nonplussed]

For all its faults, I woulnd't want to live anywhere else but America (I have traveled and seen much of the world). This IS the greatest country as far as I'm concerned, and I'm proud to be a citizen. Anyone who thinks we suck doesn't have to come here and that's just fine with me!

Nonplussed
Who, me? WHAT?! Where am I?

[mrblue92]

While the US-led intervention in Kuwait was admirable and wholly correct, they didn't seem to eager to get in on the bloodshed in places like Somalia or the Balkans...

This is not exactly a valid comparison. Remember that Iraq invaded Kuwait, a sovereign nation, and was therefore a pretty clear cut case. Somalia and the Balkan troubles are internal conflicts and, by their their very nature, are much more nebulous. How do you help people when both sides hate your guts?

[bj0rn]

ugh...
generally gets involved in countries that are a) hostile and belligerent, b) oppressive to their own people c) enemies of the US or d) communist, which I would argue is the same as "b".
hostile towards whom and for what reasons, would that be someone like cuba? would that be corea and vietnam?(referes to situations). and whats wrong with communism? is communism wrong just because the us dosnt like it?

That said, I am an isolationist, so the comments about the US, don't necesarily pertain to me.

and then you say:
By your logic, I could say "Niggers are ignorant smelly bastards" and not expect any single black person to take offense because I was insulting the group and not a specific individual.

and you say:
Sorry, your logic is flawed
dig into your own man...

your word "nigger" is a referance to a person or a group of persons, while "america" is not. so your logic fails because i would expect a person or persons to be insulted if i said something like you did.

likewise, stop attacking other peoples' countries.
i dont think we are attacking anybodys country. staying in that line of thought...who owns a country? i would say nobody, a country is simply that...a country. a place where people live, like a house. what i am saying is that i dont care how you live, i just dont want you to force me to live like you do. no matter if its good or bad. frankly speaking, i find it bad if someone is trying to force me to live like someone else. and america with its foreign policy forces alot of people around the world to live in circumstances created by america, the closest example would be cuba.

bj0rn - once america was inhabitaded by americans, some silly sod renamed them to indians...

[UncleBeer]

So, do you think she'll like England any better?

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Here's mud in yer eye,
UncleBeer

[Mr.Zambezi]

bjorn saidi dont think we are attacking anybodys country. staying in that line of thought...who owns a country? i would say nobody, a country is simply that...a country. a place where people live, like a house

The people who live in your house are idiots.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the American political system. America is its people. You can argue that it is a geographical location, but a large land make coca cola or Macdonalds. And a bunch of dirt doesn't have a culture. As far as I can tell, you are not railing against a landmass; you are ticked at what the american people, government and culture are doing.


what i am saying is that i dont care how you live, i just dont want you to force me to live like you do. no matter if its good or bad. frankly speaking, i find it bad if someone is trying to force me to live like someone else


bjorn, if you have a digital camera, perhaps you could e-mail me a picture of the Americans who are pointing a gun to the head of icelanders and making them buy American products.

Do they actually stand in the grocery stores, or do they come to your home?

I'll admit, we do meddle quite a bit in the affairs of other nations. Many times, we do so in our own interest. There is nothing wrong with a country acting in its own best interest.

[mrblue92]

I don't hold with that "internal conflict" bullshit when the issue at hand is ethnic cleansing or religious persecution. Concentration camps and Auschwitz were "internal affairs" of German society in the '30s and '40s.

Perhaps situations like these would seem a trifle less 'nebulous' if peacekeeping missions were assigned to them on a more aggressive basis.


zoony: First off, another invalid comparison... IIRC the concentration camps were not running in Germany in the 30's, and by the time they were in the 40's, armed conflict was well underway anyway. Rather, Jews and other political opponents were mostly just stripped of their rights in 1930's Germany; probably only somewhat worse off than Southern blacks at about the same time.

So, what strategy would you employ then? If we learned anything from Vietnam, it should at least be that you better have some pretty clear objectives. We did intervene in Somalia and the Balkans. In the case of Mogadishu (sp?) apparently without good objectives or intelligence, and therefore paid the price. It appears the Balkan initiatives have been slightly more successful (after the deaths), but considering the centuries of hatred there, the idea of a lasting peace seems dubious at best.

How do you keep people from killing each other? Sure, you can charge in, guns blazing, and if you have enough force in place, maybe you can smash the offending governments and hopefully prevent systematic slaughter, but it's often only after the fact. Unless you propose huge US (or UN) military presence all over the globe, I doubt the reaction time would be sufficient.

Remember also that your politicians are the ones making the decisions, and they're not about to offend potential voters with harsh pre-emptive action. First, they have to justify the deaths of American soldiers to the American public, and that's not an easy thing to do. Maybe it's worth sacrificing one American soldier to save 5, 10 or 100 Somali civilians. But if all they starve to death or are massacred next year because the new Administration withdrew, how do you justify that? Secondly, they have to justify it to the world, and that's probably even harder.

Even if you do manage to gain control of the conflicted area, how much control do you really have? Can you realistically police an entire country and make it safe? Worse yet, how do you stop the hate, when revenge multiplies it?

I agree that human rights should transcend international boundaries, but what if China had accused the US of mass executions of Native Americans or slavery of African Americans and vowed to free them via military action? Or the US claimed Quebec was being oppressed with the English language and sent troops to liberate it? Or the French attacked the UK so they would free Northern Ireland? Yes these are (somewhat) ridiculous examples, and I considered not posting them, but how many dead do we need to count before we act and can we act only on the anticipation of slaughter? Should Canada invade New York or Detroit if the murder rate increases due to racial violence and all US action seems pathetic to Canadians? Were we justified in the Kosovo campaign when the bombings killed civilians who, more likely than not, were guilty of nothing?

My point is that these are difficult questions, and the idea that application of military force can always preserve human rights is naive. If you wish to continue this discussion, I suggest a new topic...

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by zoony:
Concentration camps and Auschwitz were "internal affairs" of German society in the '30s and '40s.

I'm sure a lot of Dutch Jews would beg to differ. That is, if they lived to tell about it.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, zoony, but this is putting the entire point in a ridiculous perspective. With all due respect, please acknowledge that the persecution of Jews, homosexuals and gypsies (to name the largest groups) under Nazi regime was applicable to Germany and every single bit of soil the Germans occupied during WWII.

If not, pick up your history book, and read again.

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Coldfire
________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[jab1]

I once went to Canada when I was in the Navy. Victoria, BC, to be exact. It's one of the beautiful cities I've ever seen. The weather was nice (it was summer) and the people seemed no more or less polite than we Americans. About the only anti-America stuff I saw was some graffiti in a men's room in a fish 'n' chips shop. (Yes, they do have graffiti in Canada.) I'd like to go back to Victoria some day.

I just hope Prose isn't there if I do. :p

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>< DARWIN >
____L___L__

[Angkins]

I am from Canada and have travelled throughout New England and New York. The only truely negative thing I have to say about Americans is that they are not very knowledgeable about their northern neighbors. I have met people who believed that all of Canada is in the arctic and that we freeze ALL year long; this is simply not true for the most part. The largest concentration of the population is located in the bottom third of the country, which coincidently runs along the American boarder!

Considering this and the influence of American media, of course Canadian have become "Americanized", I don't think that there is alot of dispute there.

I live on the east coast in New Brunswick, which borders Maine. We get alot of tourists here and I have found for the most part Americans are very friendly people. You get your assholes, but we've got our assholes too!

If America as a country 'protects' Canada, well great, thank you very much and I for one appreciate it!

Crystalguy, I know I am going to probably get shit for this but..... Quebecers are not a great example of all of Canada. In my experience the most rude and obnoxious people are from Quebec,to be more precise, from french Quebec. I'm sorry if I have offended any of my fellow Canadians, this is my own personal experience and I am not saying all french people from Quebec are like this! New Brunswick is a bilingual province. I speak french quite well, and when a Quebecer or an Acadian gets pissed off and tell me I should address them in their native tongue instead of using my poor excuse for french, well I want to tell them to fuck off and I wish we had shipped them all back to France when we had had the chance!

Otherwise we are a real nice bunch of folks!

Anyone want a beer eh?

[Nutty Bunny]

Originally posted by Angkins:
[b]I am from Canada and have travelled throughout New England and New York. The only truely negative thing I have to say about Americans is that they are not very knowledgeable about their northern neighbors. I have met people who believed that all of Canada is in the arctic and that we freeze ALL year long; this is simply not true for the most part.

I live in NY and find it very difficult to believe that anyone in NY or New England think that the weather changes to snow and freezing temperatures as soon as they cross the border. :rolleyes:

I have to agree about Quebec. As a rule, I usually don't generalize, but I have to make an exception in this case. Quebeccers are rude, obnoxious, snotty bastards. Other than that, most other Canadians I have met (in my travels there) have been very friendly. Prose being the exception, of course.

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"Don't look at me--I'm irrelevant."

[Nutty Bunny]

Originally posted by Angkins:
[b]I am from Canada and have travelled throughout New England and New York. The only truely negative thing I have to say about Americans is that they are not very knowledgeable about their northern neighbors. I have met people who believed that all of Canada is in the arctic and that we freeze ALL year long; this is simply not true for the most part.

I live in NY and find it very difficult to believe that anyone in NY or New England think that the weather changes to snow and freezing temperatures as soon as they cross the border. :rolleyes:

I have to agree about Quebec. As a rule, I usually don't generalize, but I have to make an exception in this case. Quebeccers are rude, snotty bastards. What is it about the French language that makes one think their shit doesn't stink? Die, Celine, die!!

Other than that, most other Canadians I have met (in my travels there) have been very friendly. Prose being the exception, of course.

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"Don't look at me--I'm irrelevant."

[Nutty Bunny]

Sorry about the double post, but my passage about Quebec was better in the second post. ;)

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"Don't look at me--I'm irrelevant."

[TVeblen]

(a rambling response to many previous posts and points; feel free to catch a nap)

Angkins: FWIW, I've spent quite a bit of quality time in New Brunswick (Moncton and environs). I loved it, and found folks friendly, funny and great company. But what you say about Quebec is true but only in variable instances.

I hesitated over spending much time in Quebec for several reasons: my French stinks, the political climate was in upheaval and I'd already gotten a bellyful of Parisian snottiness. To my relief folks were great, but paradoxically it was because my French stinks.

{interjection: I have a slightly more drawling version of the midwestern twang, but my French teacher was from Louisiana. So my spoken French--such as it is--carries a strong magnolia-and-bayou drawl.)

As soon as folks heard my godawful accent they knew I was American and cut me some slack. Very bizarre reversal, but true. They forgave my assaults on the language in a way they wouldn't have forgiven another Canadian. BTW, it's also why I'm adamantly opposed to offical and enforced multilingual initiatives in the US. Governmental intervention just compounds fractures, IMO.

That example chases the point all around the north forty, but my position is this: people are just people, no matter where they live. Love of home, country and heritage is fine but not ever excuse attacking others, and it doesn't matter a damn if it's an American or a Canadian or an Icelander doing the attacking.

People who compartmentalize humanity for their convenience deserve to live in the limited hell their limited hearts have devised. It's a wretched, blood-drenched pity that exclusionary thinkers have projected that inner hell outwards through stupid, pointless, idiotic wars onto ordinary people who've just wanted to live and let live.

That was a tirade, wasn't it? Bigotry and idiocy are just so stupid.

Veb

[zoony]

blue,

I believe it's a wholly valid comparison. If a country is anxious to trumpet it's record as a champion of saving the rest of the world from itself, then it can't confine itself to actions falling only under the category of the patently obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denigrating the role that US intervention is capable of playing. However, in this day and age, I don't hold with that "internal conflict" bullshit when the issue at hand is ethnic cleansing or religious persecution. Concentration camps and Auschwitz were "internal affairs" of German society in the '30s and '40s.

Perhaps situations like these would seem a trifle less 'nebulous' if peacekeeping missions were assigned to them on a more aggressive basis.

Human rights transcend international boundaries - or at least they should.

Z

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All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

[ruadh]

Originally posted by TVeblen:
As soon as folks heard my godawful accent they knew I was American and cut me some slack. Very bizarre reversal, but true.

I've been to PQ four or five times. I'm not sure if it was because they knew I was American or not, but I did find the Québécois extremely gracious at my pitiful attempts to speak their language. It was as though they appreciated the fact I was even making the effort. My impression of them from these visits is extremely positive - although I do have a few Québécois clients here in San Francisco and most of them are pretty obnoxious ;)

[Mr.Zambezi]

bjorn saidi dont think we are attacking anybodys country. staying in that line of thought...who owns a country? i would say nobody, a country is simply that...a country. a place where people live, like a house

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the american political system. America is its people. You can argue that it is a geographical location, but a large land make coca cola or Macdonalds. And a bunch of dirt doesn't have a culture. As far as I can tell, you are not railing against a landmass; you are ticked at what the american people, government and culture are doing.


what i am saying is that i dont care how you live, i just dont want you to force me to live like you do. no matter if its good or bad. frankly speaking, i find it bad if someone is trying to force me to live like someone else


bjorn, if you have a digital camera, perhaps you could e-mail me a picture of the Americans who are pointing a gun to the head of icelanders and making them buy American products.

Do they actually stand in the grocery stores, or do they come to your home?

I'll admit, we do meddle quite a bit in the affairs of other nations. Many times, we do so in our own interes. There is nothing wrong with a country acting in its own best interest.

[fuzzy-wuzzy]

At the risk of also feeding the troll, envy and jealousy are unbecoming of any person and any nation. "Wanna be Americans" should learn not to whine. The pitiful list of entertainers that you listed is small compared to the list that we could start here. So we won't even go there. I find that most Canadians are very nice people...and they appreciate Americans spending money in Canadian territories.
Sounds to me like Prose wants to live in Canada but she wants to have the quality of life that Americans have..but knowing that won't ever happen she attacks it instead. I think we should just send her to conventry and forget about it.

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"Do or do not, there is no try" - Yoda


Senior Intern to
El Presidente
Self-Righteous Clique

[Angkins]

Originally posted by Dewaholic:
I live in NY and find it very difficult to believe that anyone in NY or New England think that the weather changes to snow and freezing temperatures as soon as they cross the border. :rolleyes:


I said that I have met people who thought this, I never said that this was everybody.


Originally posted by Angkins: In my experience the most rude and obnoxious people are from Quebec,to be more precise, from french Quebec. I'm sorry if I have offended any of my fellow Canadians, this is my own personal experience and I am not saying all french people from Quebec are like this!

I think that is enough said about that. :P

[mrblue92]

I'm sure a lot of Dutch Jews would beg to differ. That is, if they lived to tell about it.

Thanks for pointing that out, Coldfire. You might also include Poles, who were focused on pretty heavily. Not that others didn't suffer (Russians, Czechs, Greeks, etc.); it's just that the Dutch and Polish exterminations stand out clearer for some reason. Perhaps it's due to the popularity of Diary of Anne Frank and Schindler's List.

[Mr.Zambezi]

When I was in France, A couple of Quebeckers (sp?) got on the train and started talking to the natives. Teh french folks were laughing so hard they couldnt't breath. According to them, the french spoken in Quebec is the same french spoken in france in the 17th-18th century. They find it verrrrry amusing.

Quebeckers have no room to laugh at anyone's accent.

[aha]

Prose sed:

Besides too, why would we want to be American when we have everything you do, and a whole lot fucking more.

Umm you left out one thing there prose that you don't have..

A fucking decent army to defend yourselves, otherwise you would go belly up quicker than France did in world war two.



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"I'm the best there is Fats. Even if you beat me, I'm still the best."
(Paul Newman in The Hustler)

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Three minor points:
Prose, you left out your country's most impressive artist (at least in my eyes), the horror writer of writers, Michael Slade (yes, I know "he's" a team, but one name is more convenient for a label).

aha: I think the Canadian army is quite good for its size. I wouldn't hurl stones at our friends to the north as they were in both World Wars before we were.

Angkins: You are right about most Americans' lack of knowledge about Canada. I was once playing one of those Trivial Pursuit type of games and the other team was asked to name 10 English-speaking countries. They named off at least a third of the globe in the time limit, but no person thought to mention Canada.

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The Coyote gnaws ....
but he does not swallow.

[zoony]

Coldfire, please note the comparison being made: my point was that the attrocities and horror of the Nazi concentration camp system was little different from the ethnic cleansings in the Balkans. Ergo, had someone stepped in a little earlier, perhaps some of the Holocaust may have been averted. You can only turn a blind eye and wash your hands of so-called 'internal affairs' for so long.

mrblue,
IIRC the concentration camps were not running in Germany in the 30's, and by the time they were in the 40's, armed conflict was well underway anyway. Rather, Jews and other political opponents were mostly just stripped of their rights in 1930's Germany

The concentration camp system for political dissidents, communists, gays, invalids and other "undersirable elements" was up and running in 1934, less than a year after the NSDAP acquisition of power. The evolution of the death camps took somewhat longer, but you can see where this is headed.

Take some time to read over the Nuremburg Laws of 1936; Jews were not only stripped of their rights, but their status as persons. They were legally forbidden to own businesses, real estate, marry or have sexual relations with Germans, on pain of incarceration or death.

Sure, you can charge in, guns blazing, and if you have enough force in place, maybe you can smash the offending governments and hopefully prevent systematic slaughter, but it's often only after the fact. Unless you propose huge US (or UN) military presence all over the globe, I doubt the reaction time would be sufficient.

Peacekeeping is a little different from offensive maneuvers. Looking at the situation in the Balkans, most of the killing a blodshed took place because the government had collapsed, not because it was oppressive.

Even if you do manage to gain control of the conflicted area, how much control do you really have? Can you realistically police an entire country and make it safe? Worse yet, how do you stop the hate, when revenge multiplies it?

Nowhere in my previous post did I advocate 'taking control' of an area, or picking and choosing the form of government I see as the best for it (this seems to be a uniquely American apporach). What I am advocating is a peacekeeping role for current military establishments. What good is an armed force if it exists solely for the insular protection of one nation? Why not use said forces to "police" problem areas and achieve the most value for your military-spending dollar?
Why shake your head at it and say "well, that's not going to get any better, so what's the point of trying?"

Perhaps I am being naive. I don't think that military force is going to solve the world's problems, but hell, does anyone have a better idea?

Z

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All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

[ruadh]

Well, I was in Nova Scotia once and a gas station attendant saw our license plate and asked "Where's Maryland?" (pronouncing it wrong, too). What does that prove?

[NightGirl44]

Being a happily rabid pro-American, I would assume that MHL is simply jealous. Those in inferior countries usually like to bash the greater nations in order to make themselves feel better.

As for all of the Canadian talent, it comes to America doesn't it? Now, I have observed that the Irish seem to like Canada but then, they're still killing each other over what form of religion to practice.

America is not perfect by all means, but it is still far better than any other nation in the world, though England runs a close second. We have our flaws, but Americans revel in them, along with their differences. I am biased against Blacks and Mexicans for personal reasons, but they also make up and contribute to the greater whole that is and shall be, America.

We would be diminished without any one of our various races, religions, nationalities and eccentricities.



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'I like me but I sure as shit aint so positive about you.'

[NightGirl44]

Being a happily rabid pro-American, I would assume that MHL is simply jealous. Those in inferior countries usually like to bash the greater nations in order to make themselves feel better.

As for all of the Canadian talent, it comes to America doesn't it? Now, I have observed that the Irish seem to like Canada but then, they're still killing each other over what form of religion to practice.

America is not perfect by all means, but it is still far better than any other nation in the world, though England runs a close second. We have our flaws, but Americans revel in them, along with their differences. I am biased against Blacks and Mexicans for personal reasons, but they also make up and contribute to the greater whole that is and shall be, America.

We would be diminished without any one of our various races, religions, nationalities and eccentricities.



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'I like me but I sure as shit aint so positive about you.'

[bj0rn]

eh, whats that mr.zambezi...double posting with a 3 hour time differance? or are you trying to make a point?
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the american political system. America is its people.
granted...of course its the people that makes up a countries social habits, but its never one person. so your point is pretty blunt.

I'll admit, we do meddle quite a bit in the affairs of other nations. Many times, we do so in our own interes. There is nothing wrong with a country acting in its own best interest.
yes you meddle quite a bit...but saying that there is nothing wrong with a country acting on its own best interests is so WRONG. oh yeah, my countries best interest is to medddle in the affairs of others, forcing my way of being upon everybody who oppose to me.

what is the best interest of the ones you meddle with? is it to recieve your "help"?

last year, for the first time in history of iceland we were officially paticipants in a war, of course we dont have an army and stuff like that, but our government decided to supports the action "war". i, and alot of other icelanders HATE that. i dont want to live in a country that supports war, i dont want war anywhere.
point being, amercia is the largest army supporting country in the world. as long as there is the threat that america uses its army outside of the us, other counries will have an army as well. this is perhaps generalizing a bit too much, but this is a basic reason any country keeps an army, "because them others have one too."

bj0rn - why do we have to live, fearing for our deaths by the hands of other people?

[ruadh]

Originally posted by NightGirl44:
Now, I have observed that the Irish seem to like Canada but then, they're still killing each other over what form of religion to practice.

Oh God, not you again.

I see you're just as ignorant about the conflict in Northern Ireland as you are about everything else.

[mrblue92]

The concentration camp system for political dissidents, communists, gays, invalids and other "undersirable elements" was up and running in 1934, less than a year after the NSDAP acquisition of power. The evolution of the death camps took somewhat longer, but you can see where this is headed.

My mistake, I should have specified 'death camps' vs. 'concentration camps'. Didn't the death camps start around 1941-2? The Soviets killed more of their own people under Stalin before that and nobody ever intervened (except, to the Russian's eventual horror, the Germans). We had concentration camps for Native Americans and Japanese. Also, what makes you think we knew the Holocaust would happen? Sure, Hitler spelled it out in Mein Kampf, but he was a politician, and they do have a tendency to lie every once in a while to their own ends. In retrospect the signs are all there, but we must be careful not to judge simply because we know the outcome when they did not.

Take some time to read over the Nuremburg Laws of 1936; Jews were not only stripped of their rights, but their status as persons. They were legally forbidden to own businesses, real estate, marry or have sexual relations with Germans, on pain of incarceration or death.

And how much different is this from the Jim Crow laws? Certainly the Jews had it worse, but if black man got caught sleeping with a white woman, a lynching was not out of the question. When human rights for minorities in the US are almost as bad, what gives us the right to intervene in Germany? Sure, outright massacre gives us the right, but, as stated, war was already in progress at that point.

Peacekeeping is a little different from offensive maneuvers. Looking at the situation in the Balkans, most of the killing a blodshed took place because the government had collapsed, not because it was oppressive.

Exactly, and that's the whole point. You can strike down governments, but you can't chase down every group of yahoos with guns unless you expend enormous amounts of manpower. The best you can probably do is separate the hostile groups and police the border and hotspots, but even that can't prevent guerilla actions, and certainly doesn't end the hate. That's simply a reactionary tactic.

What good is an armed force if it exists solely for the insular protection of one nation? Why not use said forces to "police" problem areas and achieve the most value for your military-spending dollar?


First, you might think differently if you were the one being invaded. Historically, this is what armed force has been used for. Well, that and empire building... Using armed force to help others is a relatively new idea.

Realistically, policing problem areas is probably the easiest way, but it's only treating the symptoms, not the disease. Once the peacekeepers leave (as they have to eventually), the hate remains to spring up again. The root cause is hatred, and military force can never extinguish that, except with the greater evil of killing all who hate.

I'm not saying it's not worth trying, but rather, that, like a doctor, we better make sure we first do no harm. Does bombing innocent civilians for human rights always seem like the right thing to do? How many innocents are we allowed to kill before we become more evil than those who instigated it? What military means do you think are justifiable in bringing about a peaceful end?

What is your proposal to eliminate the root hatred and bring about lasting peace?

Since this is way OT, I am starting a Great Debate thread: "Peacekeeping in the 21st Century". You can post your reply there.

[mrblue92]

Here's the link to Peacekeeping the 21st Century (http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001291.html)

[/hijack]

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by NightGirl44:
Now, I have observed that the Irish seem to like Canada but then, they're still killing each other over what form of religion to practice.

Hoo boy. I'm gonna get the lawn chair and six pack for THIS one!

Mr. Larrigan, you have the floor. Use all means necessary. Take no prisoners. Trust me, you don't have to spare this stupid slut - flame away.


America is not perfect by all means, but it is still far better than any other nation in the world, though England runs a close second.

Tell me, ShitWhore44, how many of these countries have you actually BEEN to?

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Coldfire
________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by NightGirl44:
Now, I have observed that the Irish seem to like Canada but then, they're still killing each other over what form of religion to practice.

Hoo boy. I'm gonna get the lawn chair and six pack for THIS one!

Mr. Larrigan, you have the floor. Use all means necessary. Take no prisoners. Trust me, you don't have to spare this stupid slut - flame away.


America is not perfect by all means, but it is still far better than any other nation in the world, though England runs a close second.

Tell me, ShitWhore44, how many other countries have you actually BEEN to?

------------------
Coldfire
________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by NightGirl44:
Now, I have observed that the Irish seem to like Canada but then, they're still killing each other over what form of religion to practice.

Hoo boy. I'm gonna get the lawn chair and six pack for THIS one!

Mr. Larrigan, you have the floor. Use all means necessary. Take no prisoners. Trust me, you don't have to spare this stupid slut - flame away.


America is not perfect by all means, but it is still far better than any other nation in the world, though England runs a close second.

Tell me, ShitWhore44, how many other countries have you actually BEEN to?

------------------
Coldfire
________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[Coldfire]

Whoops. Sorry.... no need to repeat myself to get the point across, in this case.

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Coldfire
________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[Coldfire]

Whoops. Sorry.... no need to repeat myself to get the point across, in this case.

------------------
Coldfire
________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[Andy]

America is not perfect by all means, but it is still far better than any other nation in the world, though England runs a close second.

You misspelt The Netherlands.
;)

[Andy]

America is not perfect by all means, but it is still far better than any other nation in the world, though England runs a close second.

You misspelt The Netherlands.
;)

[Andy]

Bollocks.

[mrblue92]

Boy, there is one helluva echo in here...

[mrblue92]

Boy, there is one helluva echo in here...

[mrblue92]

Boy, there is one helluva echo in here...

[Mr.Zambezi]

Bjorn, My post didn't show up. I think it got delayed. The board seems to be acting a litle wierdd lately.

I am going to go ahead and concede your point. THe US should never act in it's own best interests. I am going to sponsor a bill that we act in teh best interests of other countries by liquidating all of our money and giving it to them. The first country to receive our largess will be iceland. THey can use the money to get rid of all of the coca cola in iceland.

[Mary Hart's Legs]

It's shameful to think that I've been occupying the critically small amount of mind that Zambezi has with my continued attempts to expose, for the generally ignorant American population, the atrocities afforded by elite and corporate driven American foreign policy.

The goal of my statements are to educate the American public, in hopes of freeing them from the bigotry and ignorance that they blindly offer to their own and, more disturbingly the rest of the world's citizens.

SD members such as Zambezi serve as examples of the profound lack of understanding of America's true role in the growing impoverishment of the third world, funding and support of policy dedicated at cleansing the world of true democracy, erosion of the world's middle class and degradation of earth's fragile enviroment.

Zambezi's small vision of the world is not entirely of his own creation. American media ensures that he stays as dumb as can be. It is not bigotry on my part, but fact that Americans are fed a steady stream of media that isolates them from the true sources of power in their country and the motivations of the elite.

It is most likely that it is too late for Zambezi to comprehend the reality of his own country's continually disgusting actions, as he is but lost sheep in the middle of the bewildered herd. However, I hold hope for all and, I would ask of you to check the facts yourself.

For a starting point, American's should look to their own enlightened intellectals for guidance - and a good start is to research the writings of NOAM CHOMSKY. His writings are simple enough, even for Zambezi.

I am weary of my attempts to educate Zambezi; but my patience is unending, as is my goal of achieving enlightenment for the rest of the good American public.

And please Zambezi, don't make judgement on my country of origin or my gender.

[Mary Hart's Legs]

Finally.....the hope that ignorance might be silenced!!

[WallyM7]

MHL, your arrogance is a complete mystery to me, for you have nothing to be arrogant about.

You're a cretin, with no ideas to call your own.

Go back to playing with your crayons and leave the grown-ups alone.

Putz.

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[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

What a loser!!

MHL, you posted after you thought that everybody else had given up; then you declared victory.You haven't won anything, Little Miss Comintern. "OOOOHHH! The big, bad Americans are evil. Mostly because they're big." We got stuck with where we are , lady. WW2 left us a major world power, & nobody here wanted that very much. As a rule, we seem to have done better than most in that role.

As for you, stick a crowbar up your ass. Better still---put it in the freezer for an hour or 2 before inserting.

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It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose.

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by Mary Hart's Legs:
SD members such as Zambezi serve as examples of the profound lack of understanding of America's true role in the growing impoverishment of the third world, funding and support of policy dedicated at cleansing the world of true democracy, erosion of the world's middle class and degradation of earth's fragile enviroment.

Count me in. I can see some logic in stating that Americas industries have a (disproportionally?) large effect on global polution, but the rest of that statement is complete bullshit. Please come up with some sound reasoning and proof that leads us all to the conclusion that the U.S. is systematically funding non-democratic governments throughout the world. Also, explain why America contributes (deliberately, at least) to poverty in the Third World.

If you can't do that, I feel obliged to see Bostas frozen crow bar and raise him a fucking baseball bat.

Fuck, I'm not even American - yet this stupidity pisses me off to no end.

------------------
Coldfire
________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[bj0rn]

I am going to go ahead and concede your point. THe US should never act in it's own best interests.

[bj0rn]

I am going to go ahead and concede
your point. THe US should never act in it's own best interests.

your words, not mine. if you keep misunderstanding what im saying you are not going to have any problems acting without your own best interests. yeah...never listen to what other people have to say, just assume it was in your best interest.

so the point is: mr.z, without mixing nationality, race, language or gender, a selfish being. you are propably one who doesnt give a signal when switching lanes, or the one that doesnt point out that that guy over there was here before you were and he should be serviced first.

bj0rn - notice the propably

[Mr.Zambezi]

MHL, let me be the first to say 1) I love Canada. despite its pudding headed socialist tendencies, it is a nice place filled witht e normal mix of nice people, morons and jerks.

2) fuck you you bigotted, half witted wastrel. you make all kinds of categorical statements against the denizens of the US and have the unmitigated gall to call us bigots! Who is prejudiced here?

America has done many, many great things for the world community. were we the bastards you claim that we are, we would have annexed your feeblle little socialist republic --or bought it---decades ago.

[bj0rn]

yeah...that would be a part of the problem as mr.z so kindly pointed out.
pudding headed socialist tendencies
and might i ask just what is so "pudding headed" about socialism? it sure isnt any worse that capitalism.

and how come one has to fill out this stupid form when coming to america? that form with questions like: "are you a communist" and "do you use drugs".
basically stupid questions, and if you answer one of them with a "yes"...you cant enter the states, ever. not matter if the event you say you participated in or did happened before you were born.

bj0rn - sarcasm doesnt pay

[tomndebb]

sarcasm doesnt pay
Well, it would pay better if you were coherent enough to convey it properly. Are you now complaining that you have been kept out of the U.S. because you answered "yes" to a question about using drugs before you were born? I'd be curious as to whether there really still is a question about being "a communist," but you can hardly "be" one prior to birth.
(And if you are so knuckleheaded as to claim that everyone in the U.S.S.R. or China were "communists," I'm going to stop thinking you're incoherent and start believing you're stupid.)

------------------
Tom~

[aha]

I was gonna reply to bjOrn's post but I haven't learned to speak in tongues yet.

[bj0rn]

it would pay better if you were coherent enough to convey it properly.since im not trying to be sarcastic, it doesnt really matter to me now does it?

(And if you are so knuckleheaded as to claim that everyone in the U.S.S.R. or China were "communists," I'm going to stop thinking you're incoherent and start believing you're stupid.)
your words, not mine.

there are questions like: "did you participate in hitlers thingy against the jewes"
dont know how to word it any better so i didnt. guess i should have eh...

bj0rn - making money

[Coldfire]

Hitlers "thingie" against the Jews?????

Show some goddamned respect, you Icelandic moron! If you have nothing better to say, or keep refusing to put any effort in voicing your socalled stupid fucking opinions in a more coherent manner, stay the fuck away from this board and play with that "thingie" in your pants or something.

Get real, bj0rn, that was NOT something to be lighthearted about. And it sure as hell isn't a question that is asked to foreigners entering the US.

What the fuck triggers you to pick on the US and its citizens everytime an American poster defends his country? You DO know this is an AMERICAN based message board, don't you??

------------------
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
________________________________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[WallyM7]

Bj0rn, You were amusing for a day or two a few months ago.

Now you're just plain stupid.

Go walk into a boiling geyser.

Putz.

------------------

[ruadh]

Originally posted by tomndebb:
I'd be curious as to whether there really still is a question about being "a communist"

Not for a tourist visa (though there is a question about membership in terrorist organizations), but the green card application does still specifically mention the Communist Party. To be precise, "Have you ever been a member of, or in any way affiliated with, the Communist Party or any other totalitarian party?" Answering yes is not automatic grounds for exclusion, but you are going to have some explaining to do.

BTW, that is far from the most ridiculous question on the application. You can see them for yourself at the INS website (http://www.ins.usdoj.gov) - look for Form I-485.

------------------
"Shut up! I'm having a rhetorical conversation!"

[bj0rn]

Show some goddamned respect, you Icelandic moron!...that was NOT something to be lighthearted about
i was not being lighthearted about it, just didnt know how to say it in english. witch is the reason i didnt say it in the first place.

You DO know this is an AMERICAN based message board, don't you??
published on an international zone isnt it? so no matter the origins, it will always be "internetional". dont tell me thats american as well, because it isnt.

bj0rn - internetlander

[Coldfire]

One would think Holocaust is a pretty well accepted term, as well as a term that is the same in almost any language I know of. The point remains, that with topics like that, you better make DAMN SURE you choose your words correctly.

Insulting people with your inane drivel and then saying "Sorry, I don't speak English" just doesn't go, bj0rn. People speak English here. That is the one thing we ALL have in common. If you do not know how to say something in that language, don't fucking post it.

As has become apparent, misunderstandings can obviously be a result of your postings. Please bear that in mind when talking about delicate objects - even though your own little piece of lava rock was left out of WWII doesn't mean the rest of the world wasn't affected.

And puh-fuckin'-leeze don't give us that crap about the Internet being internetional or whatever that stupid word joke was trying to spell. Fact of the matter is that the majority of the posters on this board are American, whether you like it or not. If you keep posting anti-American garbage in the frequency you do, people have no other choice than to label you a damn troll.

Even the non-Americans. Think about it bj0rn... if that is not what you are trying to achieve, change your subjects and change your insulting tone of speech.

Failure to do so will result in flames that will pale last weeks Icelandic volcano eruption. Guaranteed.

------------------
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
________________________________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[bj0rn]

HOne would think Holocaust is a pretty well accepted term, as well as a term that is the same in almost any language I know of in icelandic its called helför
. If you do not know how to say something in that language, don't fucking post it.at first i didnt, but then somebody made a silly remark so i explained myself...look at the chaos silly remarks can make now will you.

"Sorry, I don't speak English"
in my case it would be: "Afsakið, en ég tala ekki ensku." saying something like this sound pretty silly in english, and is not the same as not knowing the correct word for every situation or historical event. the holocaust(thanks) is a very "historical" event and i simply assumed people knew what thingy i was refferring to...sorry if i offended you, but that was entirely your fault.
as for this:
your own little piece of lava rock was left out of WWII doesn't mean the rest of the world wasn't affected.
iceland was affected, it was occupied by the british and then by the americans, and the are bloody well still here. so dont give me no crap about iceland not being affected.

Fact of the matter is that the majority of the posters on this board are American
so what? the fact of the matter is that a nick on this messageboard doesnt link to a particular country. i could have been lying about me being icelandic from the beginning. it doesnt matter a puh-fu.....-thingy.

and another thing, how dare you say im insulting people. that would be the most ignorant sentance ive heard from you, and ive heard enough of them to know you are quite an intelligent sod. its not my fault that people translate my words based on belives on what they think i am saying. communication problems or not, people shouldnt be so judgemental as you were in your last post(s).

bj0rn - its called Hekla

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by bj0rn:
sorry if i offended you, but that was entirely your fault.

I see. I am responsible for your poor education and lack of brain capacity now?
Uh-huh.


iceland was affected, it was occupied by the british and then by the americans, and the are bloody well still here. so dont give me no crap about iceland not being affected.

Will someone please explain to bj0rn that there is a vast difference between a local Allied base and an unprovoked invasion by a neighbouring (and hostile, I might add!) country? Because somehow, my words have not been adequate in doing so.
bj0rn, you incredible moron, Iceland was NOT occupied during WWII. The Netherlands were, for example. OBVIOUSLY, that is what I was refering to.
For your information, we have American militairy bases in Holland too. They are hardly considered a threat here, and I'm sure they're not a threat in Iceland. Well, maybe to a xenophobic idiot like yourself...


that would be the most ignorant sentance ive heard from you, and ive heard enough of them to know you are quite an intelligent sod.

So, the more ignorance I spew, the more intelligent I seem to you? No wonder you think I'm dumb.

(Re-read that last bit a few times will you, before responding in increasingly incoherent drivel.)

As for your constant use of the word sod, I suggest you pick up a dictionairy now and look it up. Perhaps you'd understand me then, when I tell you that I sometimes wished you would lie under the sod.

------------------
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
________________________________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[Occam]

"Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it"

- Utah <something or other>

[bj0rn]

As for your constant use of the word sod, I suggest you pick up a dictionairy now and look it up.


Function: noun
Date: 1818
chiefly British : BUGGER <if I ever find the sod I'll kill him -- John Le Carré> <he's not a bad little sod taken by and large -- Noel Coward>

yes...and?

So, the more ignorance I spew, the more intelligent I seem to you?

yes, its so much you must be faking. no one could be this dumb, so you must be an intelligent sod faking ignorance.

Iceland was NOT occupied during WWII

yes, iceland was occupied. by whom does not matter, for it is occupation all the same.


Originally posted by bj0rn:
sorry if i offended you, but that was entirely your fault.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see. I am responsible for your poor education and lack of brain capacity now?
Uh-huh.

remember i had no intention of offending you in any way. it was you that was offended because of your assumptions of what you thought i meant.

bj0rn - sigh...

[Coldfire]

Wow. I'm not even going to quote anything in my response. The above post speaks for itself, I'm sure.

bj0rn, whatever you do, take this bit of advise. Choose your topics you wish to talk about more carefully.
It is highly unlikely you will be able to enlighten anyone on these boards in matters regarding The English Language or General World History / History of World War II. That much you have shown us.

Feel free to dazzle us with knowledge about volcanoes, geisers and the like. I'm sure you know a lot more about those than the rest of us.

------------------
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
________________________________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[bj0rn]

nice to know you can make statements like that one you just did coldfire without any knowledge of the truth of my statements. for you simply said:

It is highly unlikely you will be able to enlighten anyone on these boards in matters regarding The English Language or General World History / History of World War II. That much you have shown us.

have i? and just what was it i was trying to enlighten you about? was it something you think i have no knowledge about? or were you simply misinterpeting on purpose what i was saying?
you even go as far as tell me to read a sentance a couple of times before i respond to it, i suggest you do the same.

bj0rn - hrmph...

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by bj0rn:
you even go as far as tell me to read a sentance a couple of times before i respond to it, i suggest you do the same.

Believe me, I usually have to read most of your work a few times before I catch the drift. And that says absolutely nothing about my grasp on the English language - which is pretty damn good, if I do say so myself.

Now quit your whining bj0rn. You're making a fool of yourself.

------------------
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
________________________________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[bj0rn]

im not, you are just saying i am...
who would be more wrong in a situation like that?
and your grasp of the english language obviously doesnt matter one bit. for there is more to it than just that.

bj0rn - fortunately

[Disputin]

people shouldnt be so judgemental --bjerkn

I just had to C&P this, in case anyone missed it the first time around....

You know, jerkboy, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones (and no, I'm not going to explain it to you - buy yourself a freakin' clue).

------------------
Disputin
Flagrantly ignorant statements cheerfully
crammed right back down your neck.

[TwistofFate]

I finally got around to reading this thread completely. I must start checking for hijacks more often.

NightGirl44. I pray you are still lurking. Its time to face the funk Bitch.

you think that the troubles in Northern Ireland is because of "what form of religion to practice".

Fuck you. Fuck you very much.

You are easily the most stupid, ignorant worthless spunk mop that I have ever had the bad fortune to have come across. Who the fuck do you think you are to make a generalisation like that? Over 3000 killed in the last 30 years.

Learn something about Ireland before you start spouting ignorance like you were coughing up day old cum.

We Irish like everyone, (well, most of us do, you know what I mean).


Night Girl, I pray you never have the misfortune to get stuck in a bar in the Falls Road, (or the Shankhill for that matter) and say something like that.

[end rant]

back to regular programming

------------------
well, at least one person wants to meet me....
http://fathom.org/polldata/pollcheck.adp?poll=dope-page5&question=62

Cheers!!

[bj0rn]

this has been said to me before, thanks...
and when have i been judgemental towards other people you say?

pointing fingers at mirrors doesnt work so good either.

bj0rn - :o)

[bj0rn]

we Irish like everyone, (well, most of us do, you know what I mean).
does she? i wonder if that is a possibility...at least when you consider her words(the ones that you responded to).

i dont claim to know anything about this issue (i sure hope someone is knowledgeble about it), but i belive this assumption nightgirl made is because of general ignorance and bad news reports where this situation is generally referred to as a dispute between catholics and protestants.
but accually buying that as the simple truth is just about as silly as it gets.

this is about all i know of that particular subject...i think it would take an expert to explain what is really going on in n-ireland. so ill just shut up about the subject until one has explained to me the details.

bj0rn - thanks...

[Coldfire]

Now that's more like it, Geiser Boy.

------------------
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
________________________________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[TwistofFate]

Cheers Bjorn, thanks for the honest reply.

my reference to "you know what I mean) was meant to everyone else, as Im sure that fucking slag wouldnt get it.
I should have made it more clearer.....

If Bj0rn is Geisher Boy, and Coldfire is Clog boy, what does that make me or any of the other "Foreign" Dopers??

------------------
well, at least one person wants to meet me....
http://fathom.org/polldata/pollcheck.adp?poll=dope-page5&question=62

Cheers!!

[Coldfire]

Well Larrigan, you would be either Shamrock Boy or Guinness Boy. Take a pick :D

------------------
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
________________________________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[TwistofFate]

this is getting a little "MPSIMS" now, but I'll have "shamrock boy" as its March.

------------------
well, at least one person wants to meet me....
http://fathom.org/polldata/pollcheck.adp?poll=dope-page5&question=62

Cheers!!

[Coldfire]

Good choice, ya little Irish fucker. Just in case you thought things were getting too comfy in here.... Hey! Who else wants to be cussed at??

------------------
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
________________________________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[TwistofFate]

Ok Clog boy, take your dick out that hole in the dyke thats keeping your country from being washed south and go feltch a lemming........ ahhhh.. back to normality

------------------
well, at least one person wants to meet me....
http://fathom.org/polldata/pollcheck.adp?poll=dope-page5&question=62

Cheers!!

[WallyM7]

I did some scholarly research and discovered that St. Patrick was not Irish.

He was Ukrainian. It's been hushed up.

When the snakes saw his face they said, "If you're staying, we're leaving."

My neighbour three doors down is a native Dubliner. My wife says, "Why do you spend time with that guy? He's completely crazy."

I told her that she just answered her own question.

I should add that he's crazy in a very intelligent way. It's hard to explain.

[Mary Hart's Legs]

Fuck you Wally!!!!!!

[tomndebb]

I dunno, MHL. It took you nine days to come up with a retort that even NewtonsApple could have spewed in an hour or so (with some hard thinking).

I think WallyM7 got it right. Go play with your crayons until its time for your nurse to type your next response.

------------------
Tom~

[Doobieous]

Originally posted by bj0rn:
You DO know this is an AMERICAN based message board, don't you??
published on an international zone isnt it? so no matter the origins, it will always be "internetional". dont tell me thats american as well, because it isnt.

bj0rn - internetlander

Mon Dieu! Your ignorance astounds me Bjorn! The servers this message board are on are owned by the Chicago Reader, which is based in, of all places the United States! You may have international access to it, but this IS an American web board. JUST because you can access it from snowy Iceland does NOT mean the servers are internationally owned.

and:

and another thing, how dare you say im insulting people. that would be the most ignorant sentance ive heard from you, and ive heard enough of them to know you are quite an intelligent sod. its not my fault that people translate my words based on belives on what they think i am saying

How dare you claim you are NOT insulting. It is plain to see from your choice of words that you clearly do intend to insult people whenever you put your frigid little fingers to the keyboard. Language exists to communicate thoughts. And the way you say things DOES affect (It's not what you say, it's how you say it) how people perceive them. We don't think we know what you are saying, we know very clearly EXACTLY what you mean (well some of the time).

Oh yeah, quit biting off of Nanobyte's style of ending messages (That's evil American slang for "quit copying").


------------------
I myself am an incorrigible conlang slut. I love oral lex.

[Coldfire]

As a matter of excersise, I would like to say one more thing to bj0rn:

Putz.

I'm sure Wally doesn't mind that I'm warming up a bit, what with me and Watson doing the honours in a day or two and all :D

------------------
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
________________________________________________________
"You know how complex women are"
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)

[WallyM7]

Fuck you Wally!!!!!!

Now that's a fine way for one Canadian to talk to another, you skanky slattern.

Instead of trying to turn tricks at two bucks a throw (hint: drop your price) open a geography book, and after you're done looking at the pictures, get someone to read some stuff about America to you.

And stop being cranky. Ask for your allowance and go buy some fresh batteries for your vibrator.

Have a nice day.

Putz.

[WallyM7]

GF, it's okay.

You're the official putzmeister. :)

[TwistofFate]

Hi Wally. Is he a Northsider or a Southsider?
Ask him about the differences, it should be good for a laugh!!

anyway, bj0rn and Doobieous. the board is owned by an american company, but the community on the board is International. does that clear anything up??


------------------
well, at least one person wants to meet me....
http://fathom.org/polldata/pollcheck.adp?poll=dope-page5&question=62

Cheers!!

[bj0rn]

anyway, bj0rn and Doobieous. the board is owned by an american company, but the community on the board is International. does that clear anything up??
cant speak for doobieous, but i understood it before i wrote it.

doob:

The servers this message board are on are owned by the Chicago Reader
who cares who owns the servers, or where they are located. they could be located on the north pole for all i care.

And the way you say things DOES affect (It's not what you say, it's how you say it)
i belive that is also the answer to that statement of yours. point being that you have no idea HOW i am saying the words i am WRITING.

we know very clearly EXACTLY what you mean (well some of the time).

belive me, if you really knew what i mean, you wouldnt be arguing. more proofs that you do not know what i mean: if you do not belive it when i say; "i am not trying to be insulting". you clearly do not know what i mean.

bj0rn - who the ¿? is nanobyte?

[Occam]

Wow Bjorn... they keep kickin' yeah and you come back for more. At first it was funny (well, ok it was funny all the way through) but it's getting sad now. I like to fight for the little guy and I've never seen anyone smaller than you, Bjorn. This reminds me of the part in "Full Metal Jacket" when all the cadets take turns hitting 'Gomer Pile' with pars of soap.

[bj0rn]

jokes eh?...not from me.
perhaps you think it is funny, but it is my hope that it isnt.

silly thing that its either funny or pathetic...

bj0rn - ;o)

[TheMadHun]

PUNdit said:


Er, no. Penicillin was discovered by Sir Alexander Fleming, an English Doctor. The method for producing large quantities of usable penicillin was developed by a joint effort of drug companies in the US and England.


I think you'll find that Alexander Fleming was Scottish.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by neuro-trash grrrl:

Americans hate Canadians, Canadians hate Americans, everybody hates Quebecquois.

I'm sorry, I haven't been reading this thread, but did anyone else out there read this and start singing:

Oh the Protestants hate the Catholics
And the Catholics hate the Protestants
And the Hindus hate the Moslems
And everybody hates the Jews!
But during National Brotherhood Week...

"National Brotherhood Week," by Tom Lehrer.

Esprix, who should know better than to hijack...

------------------
Ask the Gay Guy! (http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html)

[KarmaComa]

I think it's time Canada had a civil war.

I'm from the West. Almost as far west as Canada gets. Victoria, BC, to be specific.

The winters are mild (we got about 2" of snow this winter) and the summers are mild (high 20's, being low 80's)..

What I can't understand is why anyone would want to live in Ontario to freeze their balls off in the winter and roast like a pig in the summer. I also think Toronto is a filthy city.

This post has no point.

[quadell]

You know, in Prose's very first post in this topic, way back, she said
The U.S. should adopt the "back-door" policy that Canada has (flog me for all I care, we're making a difference).


I just love this! I think I'll make a pro-Canadian techno-industrial song with this as the chorus. Sort of a subtly-subversive, yet oddly-inspirational kind of ditty.

Struck the right way,
Your Quadell