Latest Crop Circles and Glyphs, Evidence of Alien Contact?

[Tedster]

I know the Straight Dope Message Board has the combined wisdom of thousands of years of pocket-protected gray-matter, so I read with interest on the latest English Crop circles like the one here:
http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2001/MilkHill2/milkhill2001a.html

While I consider myself a skeptic, some of them are interesting, if a bit mystifying. First, why would aliens presume to contact us via horking up a wheat field? Are there not better ways to communicate with earthlings?

I've heard that Crop Circles are built by hoaxters. What do ye think? Evidence of aliens, or evidence of goofballs with too much time on their hands?

[Syzygy]

It's all fake. It was exposed on national TV in the US. They showed the procedure and a time-lapse video of the entire thing being made. And it was very precise and mystifying, just like all the other supposed messages from the heavens. Aliens, indeed.

[Fenris]

#1: A huge bunch of the original batch of crop circles were made by a couple of guys who later confessed to the hoax. No crop circle done since features any technique the original guys couldn't duplicate. I'll try to dig up refs.

#2: I agree, the idea is dumb. The aliens can travel faster than light, evade radar and other detection, can smoosh wheat/corn plants in complicated shapes, but don't know how to say anything coherent?

#3: The pro-Crop Circles types call themselves "Cerealogists" (cereal...geddit?) That alone is worthy of mocking.

Fenris

[dangermom]

Cerealogists?! Really?

Yep, it's just a bunch of guys who think it will be fun to go out in a cornfield and design neat patterns and fool everybody. They are neat patterns, don't you think? Wouldn't it be fun to draw one?

Last night I heard a woman claim that the patterns are more advanced than Euclidean geometry, which has no provisions for such geometry. Uh-huh. Well, that's certainly a meaningful statement. So is the one where she says that some form of energy was involved.

She also claimed that the patterns were global. The only ones I've heard of have been in the US and Europe--have there been any in Africa? Thailand? Places that don't get tabloids that show pictures of exactly how to make a crop circle with nothing more than your feet and a big stick?

[Musicat]

Read what The Skeptic's Dictionary (http://www.skepdic.com/cropcirc.html) has to say.

Although the term's origins do seem to come from the association of circles to crops like wheat & corn (used for cereals), I believe it is usually spelled cereologist. Lends a slight respectability, eh?

[ultrafilter]

Originally posted by genie
Last night I heard a woman claim that the patterns are more advanced than Euclidean geometry, which has no provisions for such geometry.

Really? I wanna see this. Can you find her statement, or give me anything I could use to search for it?

[TheThill]

Funny that these things never happen to you or people you know well. Or that all sightings of "alien" UFO's happen in (mostly English-speaking) industrialized countries.

It looks like the "aliens" are looking for audiences with more spending money. Must be so that they can sell more of their "alien" t-shirts, dolls, etc.

[Musicat]

Originally posted by genie
Last night I heard a woman claim that the patterns are more advanced than Euclidean geometry, which has no provisions for such geometry. Uh-huh. Well, that's certainly a meaningful statement.
Only if she is a mathematician.

So is the one where she says that some form of energy was involved.
What kind of energy? I'll bet it was provided by ruddy farmer-types, not green alien-types. :rolleyes:

[andros]

Only if she is a mathematician.

And likely not even then.

[JustPlainBryan]

I think that the guys who create these crop circles are amazing artists. It's really too bad that this artwork is always overshadowed by "alien" theories. Some of the patterns I've seen are just incredible! There was one crop design I saw that was a perfect representation of a fractal pattern (it was a three-legged spiral of crop circles).


What I want to know is why anyone would not take credit for creating these crop circles (it may have started out with those two old guys who fessed up a while back but I don't think they have the stamina today to do the patterns I've seen) and why they would rather let people speculate about their origins.

[Maci]

Originally posted by ultrafilter
Originally posted by genie
Last night I heard a woman claim that the patterns are more advanced than Euclidean geometry, which has no provisions for such geometry.

Really? I wanna see this. Can you find her statement, or give me anything I could use to search for it?

The woman was on 'The O'Reilly Factor'. I was watching in a bar and when she made the above statement I about blew my beer through my nose.

I couldn't tell if O'Reilly himself was mocking her or taking her seriously.

[dangermom]

Yep, that's where I saw her. I couldn't tell about O'Reilly either--he didn't seem to be very well prepared.

You can look for the story here, but I don't know if you'll find it. http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/

Today I found www.circlemakers.org/, which has instructions (odd ones) for doing the circles.

[gobear]

Last night I heard a woman claim that the patterns are more advanced than Euclidean geometry, which has no provisions for such geometry

So what are we talkin' here? Riemannian crop circle manifolds? Gaussian hyperbolic crop figures? Crop circles in Hilbert space?
:rolleyes:

[ultrafilter]

I did some searching and found a few pages dealing with the geometric properties of crop circles. They seem to make a big deal about the ratios of the areas of various figures. Here (http://www.lovely.clara.net/hawkins.html) is a typical page.

While there might be some geometric complexity to the figures, it's certainly nothing beyond Euclidean geometry.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Heh. Ultrafilter's link also has the Lovely Clara's Home Page (http://www.lovely.clara.net/homepg.html), which has this remarkable statement:
As crop circles proliferate across the globe, conclusive scientific evidence continues to be silenced.

Mm-hmm.

And--I found a website called the Geometry Junkyard (http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/junkyard/all.html), which gives a link to a Science.org (http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arch/10_12_96/note1.htm) article that talks (seriously) about Hawkins' "Euclidean theorems".

And maybe this is where the "non-Euclidean geometry is found in crop circles!" factoid came from.
Curiously, Hawkins could find no reference to such a theorem in the works of Euclid or in any other book that he consulted.
IANA mathematician, so don't hurt me. :D

[tracer]

Musicat wrote:

Originally posted by genie
So is the one where she says that some form of energy was involved.
What kind of energy?
In Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World, he mentions at least one crop circle where cereologists claimed to have detected orgone energy. Neither Sagan, nor apparently the cereologists, gave any details as to how said orgone energy was detected.

I doubt they used Reich's orgone field meter (http://www.netcom.com/~rogermw/Reich/orgone_field_meter.html), though, because such a device produces several thousand Volts and is probably kinda dangerous to have around. More likely, they looked through an orgonoscope (http://www.netcom.com/~rogermw/Reich/orgonoscope.html) and convinced themselves they were seeing little blue lights.

[december]

Originally posted by Maci
The woman was on 'The O'Reilly Factor'. I was watching in a bar and when she made the above statement I about blew my beer through my nose.

I couldn't tell if O'Reilly himself was mocking her or taking her seriously. I saw that interview and sent O'Reilly an e-mail:O'Reilly, the two guys who created the first crop circles have already explained how they did it. One man holds one end of a board of lumber. The other man holds the other end and walks around him. That's all there is to it. Shame on you for presenting crop circles as if they were still a mystery.Not only was my e-mail not used tonight, none of the responses O'Reilly presented were reasonable. My guess is that O'Reilly or Fox News thinks that the issue will generate viewer interest, but that it's unimportant, so there's no need for accuracy. :(

[tracer]

(Side note: Just because something called an "orgone field meter exists," and uses several thousand Volts, does not in any way shape or form validate the existence of orgone energy. Wilhelm Reich (http://www.netcom.com/~rogermw/Reich) was a crackpot.)

[Tedster]

I listen to him sometimes when I want to get a laugh. He had one fellow on there who sounded fairly reasonable about crop circles, till he started a seamless segue into "Energy Vortices" which supposedly explains why Great Britain has all, or most, of the crop circles.

Thanks for the information!

[London_Calling]

I agree this years 'crop' are particularly artistic. What's interesting to some here is that the aliens were much delayed this summer. It would seem they also paid heed to the restrictions on access to the countryside that followed in the wake of the Foot and Mouth crisis.

[jab1]

Do crop circles ever appear in fields before they are harvested? Are crops destroyed, or just stalks? If a hoaxer caused serious damage to a farmer's crop, they would be in serious trouble if caught.

[Dave Stewart]

Well, they were caught, a few years back. Their wives wanted to know why, if they were going to the pub, they used up so much petrol in their cars. They had to confess to their wives, who made it public.

This year's circles are very pretty, I must admit.

[Floater]

Someone called Lucy Pringle (could it be her) is also into Euclidian geometry according to a review of a book (http://www.circlemakers.org/lucy.html) she has written:


On geometry, Pringle is equally out of her depth. She alleges that "It is generally accepted by mathematicians that genuine formations contain sacred or euclidian geometry, using the vital numbers 5,6 and 7." Ill-informed comments like this will probably even enrage other crop circle researchers, not to mention mathemeticians.

[Billy Rubin]

The RODS (http://www.roswellrods.com/pre.html) is doin' it! maken them crop sirkles all funny-like! I seen 'em!

[Chas.E]

It's true, aliens are trying to communicate with us. (http://www.primrosehillfarm.com/iloveny.html)

[ObiWan]

I think the aliens must be scared of catching foot and mouth disease. :)

From BBC News - Disease brings poor crop of circles (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1496000/1496296.stm):
Tim Carson had only one new circle appear on his land this year - until rural access restrictions were lifted a month ago.

He said: "I had a phone call to ask if the footpaths were open round our way.

"I said 'Yes', and that night a crop circle appeared...and we have had six since then."

[glee]

There seem to be two theories about how crop circles are made.

1. A couple of chaps using planks and string (also a torch if it's a dark night).

2. Aliens who:
- have evolved beyond us
- have travelled light years*
- have undetectable craft
- clearly wish to communicate, but are camera shy
(it's no use, I can't go on :rolleyes: )

*for the benefit of people who believe in aliens, this is a really really long way.

London_Calling,
nice one about the foot and mouth restrictions!

[SpoilerVirgin]

Not that it's any great surprise that Disney would be promoting ignorance, but was anyone else disturbed by this (from ObiWan's BBC link):

Two of [the crop circles] I know about because someone was making a film, and he asked me if he could make them.

"It's a love story and it's got crop circles in it."

The Disney film, Signs, is about circles appearing on a family farm in Philadelphia.

Maybe the circles in the film turn out to be a hoax. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Miskatonic]

To those who want to see the extent to which people will invent things for themselves, there's always the Night the UFO's didn't land!

http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/gallery/ufo/cropfake.htm

Who knew the some guys flattening some crops would be such a cure-all?

[andros]

My guess is that O'Reilly or Fox News thinks that the issue will generate viewer interest, but that it's unimportant, so there's no need for accuracy

Who would ever have suspected that?

[Hiyruu]

I wish people would read up on this subject before continuing to make mut and already disproven arguements.

1.) These glyphs were created by MICROWAVE mmmkay? This has been proven by the fact that the wheat had a droop as if melted (curved), as opposed to a snaped or crushed stalk from a wooden board.

The molecular structure of the wheat shows that the microscopic fibres were broken down which gives the melting effect.

Use the analogy of a dry stick of spaghetti; You can either snap it or you can melt it and it will droop.

2.)Secondly why should we assume how the aliens think? If they did respond by radio their message would not be effective because the goverment could cover it up. The crops are there for everyone to see.

You also have to understand this in the context of the whole crop circle phenomenon which shows a pattern of ever more complex formations; can you say "learning curve"?

3.)Yes, security camera's of that nature can pick up bright white lights such as flashlights in the field, so unless "students" did this in complete darkness (yeah right), then the logical conclusion is that it was someone else, someone equiped with pretty fancy microwave technology. And no, universities do not have devices of that sort, I mean jeesh imagine if that got into the wrong hands. So it is evident that whoever is making these glyphs has access to a device outside of the public domain.


4.) As for RCH theories on mars and such, I think you will find that it is the geometry and mathematics that makes those theories hold water. And oooohhh isn't this interesting the geometry and numbers of cydonia match up to the ones of the crop glyph, it's all here: http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/marscode/chilbolton.html enjoy :) .


Well, that's it for now, so please people stop trying to make arguements that have already been disproven and stick with the FACTS

[jab1]

http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/gallery/ufo/cropfake.htm
Buddy, I suggest you read this story to see how people can make crop designs with just sticks, rope and knowledge of basic Euclidian geometry.

[Kimstu]

Hiyruu: You also have to understand this in the context of the whole crop circle phenomenon which shows a pattern of ever more complex formations; can you say "learning curve"?

Learning curve for whom? For the aliens? You mean that beings who can travel light-years to a distant planet need to play in our wheat fields in order to develop their understanding of Euclidean plane geometry? What are we, some kind of remedial math camp for the alien young?

Or do you mean a learning curve for us? That the aliens can't make themselves understood except by showing us progressively more complicated crop circles? What exactly are we learning from them, by the way?

Actually, I agree with you that the increasing complexity of crop circles does represent a learning curve: those pranksters going out at night with boards and string are learning how to make their designs more fancy.

[glee]

Originally posted by Hiyruu
I wish people would read up on this subject before continuing to make ... already disproven arguments.

Quite right!

Originally posted by Hiyruu
1.) These glyphs were created by MICROWAVE mmmkay? ...
The molecular structure of the wheat shows that the microscopic fibres were broken down which gives the melting effect.

Have you got any pictures of this molecular structure?

Originally posted by Hiyruu
Use the analogy of a dry stick of spaghetti; You can either snap it or you can melt it and it will droop.

Perhaps the analogy of a living plant would be better; you can either snap it, melt it or bend it.

Originally posted by Hiyruu
2.)Secondly why should we assume how the aliens think? If they did respond by radio their message would not be effective because the goverment could cover it up. The crops are there for everyone to see.

Have you ever heard of ham radio? How would the Government intercept radio waves?!
Now sealing off a field of corn is easy by comparison. Suppose there was an outbreak of an infectious farm animal disease in the UK. Wouldn't the British Government close the countryside footpaths, ban tourists, cancel horseracing meetings and rugby internationals etc.?
Well, of course that's all hypothetical. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Hiyruu
You also have to understand this in the context of the whole crop circle phenomenon which shows a pattern of ever more complex formations; can you say "learning curve"?

"Harry?"
"Yes Jim?"
"If we brought Fred along next time, and used another plank, we could make a better pattern."
"Jim, you're a genius!"
"Nah, mate. It's just my learning curve."

Originally posted by Hiyruu
3.)Yes, security cameras of that nature can pick up bright white lights such as flashlights in the field, so unless "students" did this in complete darkness (yeah right), then the logical conclusion is that it was someone else, someone equiped with pretty fancy microwave technology. And no, universities do not have devices of that sort, I mean jeesh imagine if that got into the wrong hands. So it is evident that whoever is making these glyphs has access to a device outside of the public domain.

I suppose that man who made a BBC program on the life of badgers (in complete darkness at night) must be a secret agent then. Or have you not heard of night-sight cameras?

[Hiyruu]

Originally posted by Kimstu
Hiyruu: You also have to understand this in the context of the whole crop circle phenomenon which shows a pattern of ever more complex formations; can you say "learning curve"?

Learning curve for whom? For the aliens? You mean that beings who can travel light-years to a distant planet need to play in our wheat fields in order to develop their understanding of Euclidean plane geometry? What are we, some kind of remedial math camp for the alien young?

Or do you mean a learning curve for us? That the aliens can't make themselves understood except by showing us progressively more complicated crop circles? What exactly are we learning from them, by the way?

Actually, I agree with you that the increasing complexity of crop circles does represent a learning curve: those pranksters going out at night with boards and string are learning how to make their designs more fancy.

1.) Have you ever seen pranksters make a formation?

2.) I doubt pranksters would be equiped with microwave technology. The residual effects of microwave beams is evident in the molecular structure of the impressioned wheat.

3.) Are your statements facts or just opinions?

[pldennison]

Originally posted by Hiyruu
I wish people would read up on this subject before continuing to make mut and already disproven arguements.

1.) These glyphs were created by MICROWAVE mmmkay? This has been proven by the fact that the wheat had a droop as if melted (curved), as opposed to a snaped or crushed stalk from a wooden board.

Cite, please.

The molecular structure of the wheat shows that the microscopic fibres were broken down which gives the melting effect.

Um, have you ever felt a stalk of wheat?

You also have to understand this in the context of the whole crop circle phenomenon which shows a pattern of ever more complex formations

Cite, please.

3.)Yes, security camera's of that nature can pick up bright white lights such as flashlights in the field, so unless "students" did this in complete darkness (yeah right), then the logical conclusion is that it was someone else, someone equiped with pretty fancy microwave technology.

Cite, please.

And no, universities do not have devices of that sort,

Cite, please.

4.) As for RCH theories on mars and such, I think you will find that it is the geometry and mathematics that makes those theories hold water. And oooohhh isn't this interesting the geometry and numbers of cydonia match up to the ones of the crop glyph, it's all here: http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/marscode/chilbolton.html enjoy :) .

"This is so bad, it's gone past good and back to bad again."

[Hiyruu]

Originally posted by pldennison
[QUOTE]Cite, please.



Is that the extent of your language skills?

[pldennison]

Are you going to post any cites? Or just expect us to take your assertions at your word?

See, I don't know if you noticed the URL of the website you're at right now, but it's http://www.straightdope.com. It's the site for the Straight Dope, whose motto is "Fighting Ignorance Since 1973--It's Taking Longer Than We Thought." It isn't, "Say Any Silly Thing You Want Without Providing Evidence."

Going further, the name of the forum in which you are posting is "Great Debates." Feel free to go into the other fora, perhaps MPSIMS or IMHO, and make all the unfounded, citeless assertions you'd like. In this forum, when someone makes a claim -- especially when they make a particularly unusual one -- we ask them to back it up with a cite.

See, if I were to make a claim that, say, you have to be 35 years old to be President of the U.S., I probably wouldn't be asked for a cite. It isn't a particularly outrageous claim, and it's fairly common knowledge. If I was asked for a cite, I'd point them to http://www.usconstitution.com and ask them to read Article II, Sec. 1, par. 5.

If I were you, I'd make myself intimately familiar with the words "Cite, please." You're going to hear them a lot, if this thread is any indication.

[andros]

Oh, dammit PLD, everyone knows that wheat melts in heat.

[jab1]

Originally posted by Kimstu
What exactly are we learning from them, by the way?That aliens have lots of free time on their hands? Or tentacles?

[Waverly]

I’m having a deja sethru attack. Why do we continue to discuss what hoaxers have already confessed to? Carl Sagan (http://www.2think.org/sagcrop.shtml) wondered the same thing.

As for all this ‘mathematical complexity’ that circle are showing: a)Hoaxers have gotten better and more elaborate, and b)If I look hard enough, I can find a correlation anywhere. For example, my watch has a diameter of 39mm. Eerily, the 2nd set of bright rings around Neptune are positioned at 39,000miles from the surface. Do you think aliens living on Neptune are trying to speak to me through mathematics?

[tavalla]

Originally posted by Waverly
Do you think aliens living on Neptune are trying to speak to me through mathematics?

Yes, dammit! The government's started to pick up the microwave transmissions the Neptunians were trying to send through the implant in your skull (what? You don't remember being abducted and tested? That just means the military got to you and removed your memory of the event) so now they've resorted to mathematics.

Now, if you'll excuse me, my cat wants to give me a message from the Beta Reticulans.

[bonzer]

I wish people would read up on this subject before continuing to make mut and already disproven arguements
Given the way this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=84636) developed, I take it Hiyruu was being ironic here.

[Weirddave]

Originally posted by pldennison

See, I don't know if you noticed the URL of the website you're at right now, but it's http://www.straightdope.com. It's the site for the Straight Dope, whose motto is "Fighting Ignorance Since 1973--It's Taking Longer Than We Thought." It isn't, "Say Any Silly Thing You Want Without Providing Evidence."

Cite, please?


Going further, the name of the forum in which you are posting is "Great Debates." Feel free to go into the other fora, perhaps MPSIMS or IMHO, and make all the unfounded, citeless assertions you'd like. In this forum, when someone makes a claim -- especially when they make a particularly unusual one -- we ask them to back it up with a cite.


Cite, please?


See, if I were to make a claim that, say, you have to be 35 years old to be President of the U.S., I probably wouldn't be asked for a cite. It isn't a particularly outrageous claim, and it's fairly common knowledge. If I was asked for a cite, I'd point them to http://www.usconstitution.com and ask them to read Article II, Sec. 1, par. 5.



Would you really? Do you have a cite for that?


G,D & R :p

[tracer]

Hiyruu wrote:

The molecular structure of the wheat shows that the microscopic fibres were broken down which gives the melting effect.

Use the analogy of a dry stick of spaghetti; You can either snap it or you can melt it and it will droop.
Wheat stalks will also bend, without breaking, if they are damp.

Such as would be the case if the wheat were, say, outdoors. In the early morning hours. When the dew collects.

Which is the time of day when the hoaxers tended to make their crop circles.


And as far as the alleged "microscopic analysis" of the "molecular structure" of the wheat fibers goes, have a look at what the sci.skeptic FAQ has to say on that subject:
http://home.xnet.com/~blatura/skep_3.html#3.7.4

[Mangetout]

Originally posted by TheThill
Funny that these things never happen to you or people you know well. Or that all sightings of "alien" UFO's happen in (mostly English-speaking) industrialized countries.

That's because the others are too busy still seeing goblins and pixies.

[rowrrbazzle]

Originally posted by ObiWan
think the aliens must be scared of catching foot and mouth disease. :) From BBC News - Disease brings poor crop of circles (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1496000/1496296.stm):
Tim Carson had only one new circle appear on his land this year - until rural access restrictions were lifted a month ago.

He said: "I had a phone call to ask if the footpaths were open round our way.

"I said 'Yes', and that night a crop circle appeared...and we have had six since then."IT'S OBVIOUS to all but the most CLOSE-MINDED SKEPTICS that this means THE ALIENS MUST BE COWS! (Well, okay, or sheep or pigs). Why else would they be afraid of foot-and-mouth?

Wait a minute...

Forget the alien cows - it's really OUR OWN COWS who are doing this! They've been hiding their superior intelligence for centuries! They've DELIBERATELY infected KAMIKAZE COWS with mad cow disease to pass to humans as a part of their BIOLOGICAL WARFARE! Crop circles are part of their MASTER PLAN to sow FEAR and CONFUSION prior to THEIR TAKEOVER!

Gary Larson tried to tell us what was going on, but he was silenced by THEM!

We've got to do SOMETHING or we're DOOMED! DOOMED, DO YOU HEAR ME? DOOMED!

[tracer]

Couldn't we be DOOM 2ed, instead? We'd get to add a double-barrelled shotgun to our arsenals!

[Dave Stewart]

I actually am a cow and I'm monitoring you all.

[Hiyruu]

Originally posted by Dave Stewart
I actually am a cow and I'm monitoring you all.

So it's true?

[Dave Stewart]

Yes, I'm afraid so: and for discovering the truth you'll be first against the wall when the Cosmic Bovine Revolution comes.

[Mangetout]

Sorry folks for butting into this thread with something off topic, but Hiyruu, would you be kind enough to answer my question in your thread: Why evolution is not possible. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=84636&pagenumber=5)?

Thanks.