Fighting a handicapped-spot ticket

[lawoot]

First a disclaimer. I have not gotten one of these tickets.
That said...

The community that I live in has 'deputized' people to go around and give people legally binding tickets for parking in handicapped spots. That is their ONLY duty. My PROBLEM with this is that they go so far as to ticket employees at stores that are CLOSED who are working overnight stock duty, or have to get close to unload items from their vehicles (again, after hours). I can understand the tickets during business hours, but these tickets seem to be a bit much. The reason that these volunteers have given is that they need to 'teach a lesson' to these 'insensitive people', and to break them of the habit.

Mind you, the law backs them up. It states that a handicapped spot is a handicapped spot, 24 hours a day. It just seems that these 'volunteers', mostly retirees looking for something to do, are being a bit overealous. I've never heard of a police officer ticketing people for this sort of thing (going into a parking lot after hours and ticketing parked cars). When I was working at Domino's in Denver in the early 90's, I even had an officer advise me to move my car into the handicapped spot after hours so it was visible from the store. (But that's a different state.)

So anyway, if a person tried to FIGHT this ticket in court, what sort of strategy would/should they use?

[Astroboy14]

I know next to nothing about law, but if we're talking about a ticket that was issued to an employee parking in a handicapped spot after the store (or whatever) was closed for business for the day, it seems to me that you could argue that the ticket was simply ridiculous!

But I have one question: if the people getting the tickets are working after hours, why not just park right in front of the door? Problem solved!

Of course, if they get legally ticketed for parking there, then I guess they'd be SOL in arguing the handicapped parking tickets...

[CWN]

Originally posted by lawoot


Mind you, the law backs them up. It states that a handicapped spot is a handicapped spot, 24 hours a day.

I think that sentence said it all. If you don't want a ticket don't park there!

[lawoot]

Originally posted by Astroboy14
But I have one question: if the people getting the tickets are working after hours, why not just park right in front of the door? Problem solved!

At many stores here, those ARE the handicapped spots.

My point (or question) is, could a legal argument be made about the use of volunteers to give out the tickets? (I'm not sure if they are truly considered 'deputies' by the county).

[Squink]

Does the store have a policy of not hiring handicapped people ? If that's not the case, how can the employee know for certain that the spot he parked in isn't needed after hours ?

[lawoot]

Squink - do you have any co-workers that are handicapped that you don't know about about?

I'm talking about STORES here, not large corporate office buildings. And not only that, but late night/overnight shifts tend to be a smaller workforce than usual.

[postcards]

I think if you plead that the ticket was given after business hours you should have it dismissed. The forms for parking tickets have a place for the time of day; if you were ticketed at midnight in front of a business that closes at 9 PM, the ticket is bogus.

Plead not guilty. Talk to the judge.

[Astroboy14]

Originally posted by lawoot
Originally posted by Astroboy14
But I have one question: if the people getting the tickets are working after hours, why not just park right in front of the door? Problem solved!

At many stores here, those ARE the handicapped spots.

My point (or question) is, could a legal argument be made about the use of volunteers to give out the tickets? (I'm not sure if they are truly considered 'deputies' by the county).

No, no... I mean RIGHT in front of the door. The handicapped spots are to the right and left of the door... there are NO parking places right in front of the door. (keep in mind that I'm going by memory... I live in Korea, and there is no such thing as a handicapped parking spot here, as far as I know... course I don't drive here, so I wouldn't know...);)

[Squink]

do you have any co-workers that are handicapped that you don't know about about?
I think the law is likely to be as nitpicky about this as I was. If it's legal to throw people in jail for not wearing seat belts, and this was recently upheld, it's likely to be the same with handicapped space enforcement. As you say, maybe there's a loophole in the way these people are "deputized" ?

[Chas.E]

Plead guilty. You were wrong to park in the handicapped spot. Remember that someday YOU may break a leg and need that same handicapped spot.

[Astroboy14]

Originally posted by Chas.E
Plead guilty. You were wrong to park in the handicapped spot. Remember that someday YOU may break a leg and need that same handicapped spot.

But Chas, we're talking about after hours... what handicapped (or other person) is going to park there after hours?

[lawoot]

Originally posted by Squink
... As you say, maybe there's a loophole in the way these people are "deputized" ?

THAT'S the sort of thing I'm talking about... rules of deputization, things like that.

As I said in the OP, I have NOT gotten one of these tickets... I'm just pissed over the whole concept of roving bands of citizens, giving out tickets. Whose to say that this can't be abused? Hell, I once talked to a college cop who stated that he could give me a ticket any time he wanted, for any reason. Even if I was off campus. He could just write on the ticket that I was in an illegal spot, and I would then have to prove in court that I WASN'T. As an 'officer of the law', he'd be given more weight in court than I would. (Don't think so? I was in court once and heard the judge say "He's a police officer. Why would he lie?" to a person who was there fighting a ticket.)

[occ]

This is idiotic. Deputizing people to hand out tickets to people parking in handicapped spots? Obviously the people who are going to "apply" for this position are those who fantasize about being cops and busting the bad guys. Give them this little inch of power, and it looks like they're taking a mile.

Most any police officer in this situation would *think* about the situation, and realize that the point of the handicapped spot is to guarantee that people who have physical disabilities can reach the business/building/whatever. They would realize that the purpose of the handicapped spot is not to serve as a booby-trap, where you stumble in in the middle of the night and suddenly are given a ticket by an overzealous, UNTRAINED, INEXPERIENCED, fake police officer.

Anyway, just a little rant. We had 6 or 7 handicapped spots at the place I used to work. We had 100 or so employees, and there was ONE person who had a handicapped sticker and was allowed to use the spots. The main lot was some 75 yards further out, up a hill. I worked the night shift, and myself and the others on at night (there were only about 5 employees stationed there at night) would park in the handicapped spots. It's called being rational.

[Chas.E]

Originally posted by Astroboy14
But Chas, we're talking about after hours... what handicapped (or other person) is going to park there after hours?
The same kind of person who would park there after hours NOW, once they break a leg.

[Astroboy14]

Originally posted by Chas.E
Originally posted by Astroboy14
But Chas, we're talking about after hours... what handicapped (or other person) is going to park there after hours?
The same kind of person who would park there after hours NOW, once they break a leg.

Yeah, OK... point taken.

But still, IIRC, aren't the handicapped spaces to the left and right of the door? If you park immediately in FRONT of the door, you shouldn't be blocking handicapped spaces... right? (Or am I remembering incorrectly? I've been in Korea a LONG time!)

Anyways, we're hijacking this thread for a small point... truce?

[Ezstrete]

As a handicapped person I find the question silly.

If the area was posted "fire lane,no parking anytime"what would you do?

Decide that, since there was no smoke in the air, the sign wasn't there either?

C'mon-!

And if a handicapped person was brought in to the work force would you get there early so you could grab his spot?

Be glad there isnt a sign that says"no parking day or night".

[Astroboy14]

Originally posted by Ezstrete
As a handicapped person I find the question silly.

If the area was posted "fire lane,no parking anytime"what would you do?

Decide that, since there was no smoke in the air, the sign wasn't there either?

C'mon-!

And if a handicapped person was brought in to the work force would you get there early so you could grab his spot?

Be glad there isnt a sign that says"no parking day or night".

Yeah, but if the store were closed for the day... what is the sense in ticketing store employees who parked there (while the store was closed)? No one who is handicapped would be expected to park there, after all...

Fire lanes, on the other hand, I can see... after all, there might be a fire at ANY time of the day or night, and you'd need that space to be clear.

But handicapped spaces (or in front of the door!): you would ticket someone who parked there at 3AM to do some work inside the store? (let's assume the store closed at 11 PM) Why??

I am all in favor of handicapped parking spaces, and in favor of punishing those who abuse them... but how is parking there AFTER hours abusing them? I don't get it..

Explain, please! What am I missing?:)

[Astroboy14]

Re-reading this thread, I think some of my posts may have come off as being uncaring... that was not my intent at all!

I have been, several times!, temporarily handicapped... and I do remember how much it sucked trying to get to the store on crutches, or walking VERY slowly due to a back injury...

But I don't get it: if the store is CLOSED, why bother with handicapped parking spaces?

(Don't mean to offend anyone... just looking for an explanation...)

;)

[gtzaskar00]

Are you handicapped? No?
Then don't park in a handicapped spot. If you don't, there would be no ticket.

[delphica]

I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Are this parking places on a street? Or in a lot? Is it a lot shared by several small business (like a mini-mall), or a lot used by only one business?

Astroboy, I think the parking (or no parking) in front of the door depends on where you are. Here (NY State) there are many mini-malls where the row of parking goes straight across the storefronts ... no gaps, not even for doors.

[Astroboy14]

Originally posted by delphica
I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Are this parking places on a street? Or in a lot? Is it a lot shared by several small business (like a mini-mall), or a lot used by only one business?

Astroboy, I think the parking (or no parking) in front of the door depends on where you are. Here (NY State) there are many mini-malls where the row of parking goes straight across the storefronts ... no gaps, not even for doors.

I've been picturing a lot... but I guess it does make a difference... Hmmm... maybe I was wrong...

Damn! I HATE being wrong! Let me think about this for a while and see if I can't find some way to not be wrong...

[Astroboy14]

Originally posted by gtzaskar00
Are you handicapped? No?
Then don't park in a handicapped spot. If you don't, there would be no ticket.

OK. But your reply is not helpful as it addresses none of the issues being discussed...

[CnoteChris]

Originally posted by Astroboy14
Fire lanes, on the other hand, I can see... after all, there might be a fire at ANY time of the day or night, and you'd need that space to be clear.

What if that fire lane was in front of an empty lot on an empty block? It's not like a fire is going to break out in the dirt.

But even then, I think you're bound by what they've posted. It doesn't matter what you think, or what the other person may think, because there's no gray area there. If you park there, no matter what excuse you give, you should get a ticket.

What bothers me are these roving hordes of oldies out there handing out tickets.

There must be some law against that, right? I mean, I can't run outside my apartment and start handing out tickets. What gives these citizens the right I don't have?

[Chas.E]

Originally posted by CnoteChris
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Astroboy14
[B]There must be some law against that, right? I mean, I can't run outside my apartment and start handing out tickets. What gives these citizens the right I don't have?
The fact that they were deputized. They are legally authorized law enforcement operators.

[Astroboy14]

Originally posted by CnoteChris
Originally posted by Astroboy14
Fire lanes, on the other hand, I can see... after all, there might be a fire at ANY time of the day or night, and you'd need that space to be clear.

What if that fire lane was in front of an empty lot on an empty block? It's not like a fire is going to break out in the dirt.

But even then, I think you're bound by what they've posted. It doesn't matter what you think, or what the other person may think, because there's no gray area there. If you park there, no matter what excuse you give, you should get a ticket.



You have a good point! But should we just shrug our shoulders and say "OK. It doesn't make any sense, but that's the law!" And give up?

Maybe we should... but it seems a bit stupid to me!

Anyways, I'm off to bed... g'night!

[Mr. Miskatonic]

Originally posted by Astroboy14
Re-reading this thread, I think some of my posts may have come off as being uncaring... that was not my intent at all!

I have been, several times!, temporarily handicapped... and I do remember how much it sucked trying to get to the store on crutches, or walking VERY slowly due to a back injury...

But I don't get it: if the store is CLOSED, why bother with handicapped parking spaces?

(Don't mean to offend anyone... just looking for an explanation...)

;)

If I may use quote by Wellington

"If they think they have the right to cheer you when you are winning, then they will think they have the right to boo you when you are losing."

Not to pull to much of a slippery slope here, but if you start making exceptions for "when the store is closed", its not too long before it becomes "when the driver woiuld be inconvenienced by walking across the parking lot." Pretty soon folks think of the handicapped space as jsut having a funny symbol in it.

Drivers already routinely ignore other parking signs and symbols already, I have no sympathy for lame excuses.

(Not meant as a flame at you astroboy.)

[CnoteChris]

Originally posted by Chas.E
The fact that they were deputized. They are legally authorized law enforcement operators.

So if I knew a buddy on the force with a connection or two, I could get a ticket book myself?

It doesn't matter who you are?

There must be some reason law enforcement hasn't used this ploy before in the past.

[Bricker]

Were this the Pit, I would have some additional commentary for those who apparently believe the law applies to others, but not to them.

To answer the question in the OP, there is no general legal principle that requires a person be paid before having authority to sign a parking ticket. Many police forces use reserve officers to augment their forces; these reserve officers are not always paid.

Indeed, as a general rule, a private citizen may appear before a magistrate and swear out a warrant against another private citizen, alleging a violation of law. If the magistrate finds probable cause to exist, a warrant is issued; that warrant has just as much legal power as does one procured by the Chief of Police.

Your state or the city in which this is being done may have some law that limits who may issue tickets. If they do, then you could probably mount a successful defense if the volunteers in question were appointed contrary to some provision of that law. Since the specific state and city are not identified in the OP, however, this is mere speculation.

Again, there is no general principle of law that forbids the practice described in the OP.

- Rick

[waterj2]

Were this the Pit, I would have some additional commentary for those who apparently believe the law applies to others, but not to them.
I don't really see anything of the sort here. Some people have expressed the opinion that handicapped parking spots should not be in effect when the business is not open to the public, and are not needed by the employees. There is also the argument that since the practice of using handicapped spaces for employees after hours does not violate the principle of setting aside such spaces for those in need of them, the police are often inclined to use their discretion, while deputized citizens aren't.

There are many laws on the books whose enforcement is dictated more by common sense than the letter of the law.

[doreen]

Not to pull to much of a slippery slope here, but if you start making exceptions for "when the store is closed", its not too long before it becomes "when the driver woiuld be inconvenienced by walking across the parking lot." Pretty soon folks think of the handicapped space as jsut having a funny symbol in it.



I don't think it's that slippery a slope.Store parking lots are private property.Stores only allow certain people to park in them.Usually,it states the lot is for customers only.Sometimes employees can also use the lot,even if the sign states customers only.Since there are no customers when the store is closed,what possible difference does it make if employees use those spots? (if a handicapped employee is unable to get a spot, that would be a different iissue.It's clearly not the case here, because the deputies' stated reason is to "teach a lesson" to " these insensitive people} And why would folks in general think of it as "just having a funny symbol" when the only people who would be taking advantage of the exception are the employees of the closed store?

originally posted by CNote Chris
But even then, I think you're bound by what they've posted. It doesn't matter what you think, or what the other person may think, because there's no gray area there. If you park there, no matter what excuse you give, you should get a ticket

Around here, police officers are allowed and expected to exercise discretion in giving parking tickets.We have street cleaning rules that prohibit parking from 8-11 am Mon,for example . If a car breaks down,and gets pushed into one of these spaces, do you really think there should just be an automatic ticket given while the driver is waiting for a tow truck?

[CnoteChris]

O.K., maybe this is a better question on my part-

How is a deputized citizen different from a cop?

Can that oldie puts some blinking lights on his/her car and get to the store faster- not that they're ever in a hurry- than me?

I guess I'm sitting here wondering less about whether the ticket was right (I think it is) and more about these deputized citizens.

I assume there's a lot they can't do, right?

[CnoteChris]

Originally posted by doreen
Around here, police officers are allowed and expected to exercise discretion in giving parking tickets.We have street cleaning rules that prohibit parking from 8-11 am Mon,for example . If a car breaks down,and gets pushed into one of these spaces, do you really think there should just be an automatic ticket given while the driver is waiting for a tow truck?

I'd hope not. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a ticket on it.

I'm a pessimist -It comes from years of being an optimist.

[Moirai]

If it's 3:00 in the morning, why the hell do you need to park in a handicapped spot? Parking lot too crowded?

Be gratefull you are able bodied and walk the extra 50 feet.

Spots that require a handicapped placard or plate are enforceable 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Live with it.

As for deputizing people to give tickets, I believe the operative word is "deputizing." No, you probably can't be just anybody, or have a friend on the force who lets you play with his ticket book. Do you know what the guidelines are for this? Or are you just bitching because you may be inconvenienced late at night?

[BobT]

This may vary by state, but in California, all parking tickets are considered civil matters, not criminal ones. Just about anyone can give out a parking ticket here. In the City of LA, the Department of Transportation gives out parking tickets. If you have a beef with your ticket, you take it up with them. If you don't like their decision, you go to Small Claims Court.

[Patty O'Furniture]

I have always thought that parking enforcement officers should use a little common sense when dealing out citations, but this does not happen. I strongly agree with waterj2 that it is the intent of the law should be enforced, not (always) necessarily the letter.

The intent of hapdicapped spaces is to make sure that handicapped people have optimum access to the business during business hours. Unfortunately the sign does not say this, and this results in overzealous ticket nazis ;) giving out huge fines just because they can. And since the law is behind them, they can & do. It would not surprise me to learn that these deputy ticket nazis get a commission (kickback) on each ticket.

A few blocks away from my home there is a similar situatuion. Over a year ago, a bus stop was torn down (the route changed I think), but the signs that say "no parking - bus stop" are still there where the old stop used to be. I often see cars parked there with tickets on them. This is a residential area so these are people who live right there & they know that the bus stop was long ago moved, so you'd think that any parking enforcement officer with half an ounce of common sense would recognize that even though the no parking signs are still there, they aren't really needed any more.

Of course this does not happen. Parking enforcement still issues citations just because they can, or more likely to meet their quota.

Regarding the OP, the citations are probably valid but shouldn't be IMHO. Maybe the owner of the store can request that the signs be altered to read "HC parking only during business hours".

If it's 3:00 in the morning, why the hell do you need to park in a handicapped spot? Parking lot too crowded?

Last job I had there was an employee robbed in the parking lot just after dark. This was made easier due partly to a policy that the 8 spaces right in front of the store were for customers only, and four of those were HC spots. The employee spots were around the side of the building abutting some dense woods, and that part of the lot was rather poorly lit.

When the police showed up, they made a couple of suggestions one of which was to have all employees who work after dark (about 6 of them) move their cars to the front of the building (the customer/HC spaces) so that when they leave at 10 p.m. they are only a twelve feet or so from their cars. When my boss pointed out that there weren't enough spots for all of the evening workers to do this (because four of the spots were marked HC only), the police looked at him like he was insane and said something to the effect of "do you really think we'd ticket cars parked in HC spots after business hours?" They explained that HC signs allow them to enforce the accessibility laws "when necessary".

[Scarlett67]

Here's a point I haven't seen addressed here: What about HC spots that are set up not so much for proximity to the building, but to provide room to unload a wheelchair, use a lift, etc.? Suppose someone using a wheelchair needs to park his/her car outside this closed business, for whatever reason, and because all the HC spots are full, doesn't have enough room to get out of the vehicle? They could park in a regular space in the empty lot, but who's to guarantee that they don't get "parked in" later?

Yes, the likelihood is probably small, but I'm willing to bet that Murphy's law applies in full force here.

[CnoteChris]

Originally posted by Attrayant
Parking enforcement still issues citations just because they can, or more likely to meet their quota.

I must be an optimist in this opinion, but I think the ticket is more a result of laziness on behalf of the meter maid, rather than a quota on behalf of the city.

They're speeding around looking for tickets to hand out, they're not looking to understand the situation of any given ticket. That also explains why I'd expect to see a ticket on a broken down car in a no parking lane.

Originally posted by EJsGirl
No, you probably can't be just anybody, or have a friend on the force who lets you play with his ticket book. Do you know what the guidelines are for this? Or are you just bitching because you may be inconvenienced late at night?

Sorry EJs, but I'm not following any of that. I'm not bitching about anything, I'm simply curious what guidelines deputized citizens need to follow, that's all. It can't be as easy as I'm sitting here thinking it is. I mean, what's to stop me from walking down-stairs and giving the owner of that car that had the late party last night a parking ticket.

Sure, he's parked just fine. But my ticket says he isn't.

Experience in this field tells me that unless a person takes care of that ticket, the city is going to come after a person (In my case, they towed my car to the impound lot after four unpaid parking tickets and wouldn't release it until I paid all of it- including the tow and associated new ticket for being towed- on the spot, at that moment) with everything they have.

I don't know about you, but instead of a civil matter that you claim it to be, it seems pretty criminal to me.

(Legally, that may be the case, but I don't like it.)

In my opinion, I'd like to think the people within the police department wouldn't be handing out this ability to ticket people willy-nilly. I'd hope, and assume even, that the police must use some restraint in offering that ability out.

Because, like I said, what they can inflict upon a person is far more than what I'd hope a Joe Bloe citizen could do.

[bibliophage]

The GQ has been answered, even if it is like looking for a needle in a haystack (hint: look at Bricker's post).

Off to Great Debates.

bibliophage
moderator, GQ

[Typo Negative]

The woman got a ticket for parking in a no-parking zone. She said she shouldn't have gotton the ticket because, since nobody was supposed to park there, she wasn't in nobody's way.
I apologize for the grammer, but that's how this sounds to me. Like EJsGirl, it seems silly to bicker about this. How is this space inconveiniencing you? How much farther away are you being asked to park? We're probably talking about 20 feet. I'm sorry, but the 'there are no handicapped people there at that hour' seems like whining.

It seems to me the reason for not having an 'off hours grace period' is the public's tendency to get an inch and then want a mile. Where are you gonna draw that line? 10 minutes before the business opens? An hour? Business hours can change without much notice, and some of who don't see distances that well have to get really close to the door to read them. It is much simpler to have the space off limits to non-handicapped persons 24/7.

BTW, is there a pay phone in front of your business? I'll bet the phone is closest to the handicapped spot.

[waterj2]

It seems to me the reason for not having an 'off hours grace period' is the public's tendency to get an inch and then want a mile.
Yeah, God forbid that our elected representatives allowed us to do what we want. Much better to let those who know best tell us all what to do.

[Weird_AL_Einstein]

Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic

Not to pull to much of a slippery slope here, but if you start making exceptions for "when the store is closed", its not too long before it becomes "when the driver woiuld be inconvenienced by walking across the parking lot."

:rolleyes: This statement reminds me of spam emails I get that state very clearly in the beginning, "This is Not Spam". Where's that guy who was arguing against slippery slope arguments?



Spots that require a handicapped placard or plate are enforceable 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Live with it.


This is a good example of the way people are takling past each other here. The question is, why should it be that way? If you must have a reason why we should have this debate, consider this:

Originally posted by Attrayant

Last job I had there was an employee robbed in the parking lot just after dark. This was made easier due partly to a policy that the 8 spaces right in front of the store were for customers only, and four of those were HC spots. The employee spots were around the side of the building abutting some dense woods, and that part of the lot was rather poorly lit.

When the police showed up, they made a couple of suggestions one of which was to have all employees who work after dark (about 6 of them) move their cars to the front of the building (the customer/HC spaces) so that when they leave at 10 p.m. they are only a twelve feet or so from their cars. When my boss pointed out that there weren't enough spots for all of the evening workers to do this (because four of the spots were marked HC only), the police looked at him like he was insane and said something to the effect of "do you really think we'd ticket cars parked in HC spots after business hours?" They explained that HC signs allow them to enforce the accessibility laws "when necessary".