Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...

[warmgun]

Everytime I ask someone if they have read this book, they say, "well, most of it."
I think this is a very important book. Maybe one of the most important of the last 100 yrs. Should be required reading. But it is hard to get through.
To those who have read it all and understand it, do you agree?

[Why A Duck]

Required reading? No. If you're not ready for it, it's going to bore the socks off you, especially the "Phaedrus" stuff.

Suggested reading? Sure. Book club fodder? You bet.

Great book? Oh yeah.

[/quote]

SPOILERS HO! (Maybe)


(Personal ZatAoMM anecdote: I first read it in college, and the version I read was a hardcover from the stacks. A couple of years later I was browsing in the bookstore and picked up a new paperback version that had the new Afterward, which I read standing there. Talk about a shock to the system, that hit me hard, )

[Legomancer]

I did read it, but years ago, and I admit I wasn't really ready for it.

Since then I have begin looking into Buddhism in earnest, and may soon be ready to really appreciate it. On the other hand, I've been told by some people that one you read "real" Zen and Buddhism books you won't be much interested in it. That seems somewhat elitist to me, but then again I've heard "real" Buddhists get enraged at Stephen Batchelor's 'Buddhism Without Beliefs' (it's criticized as being "cafeteria Buddhism" which is an oxymoron, IMO) so the conclusion I've drawn is that Buddhism, like many other religions, has its share or judgemental goofballs.

[China Guy]

It can be real slow. I liked it, and about 20 years later, reread it. I still like it.

I wouldn't make it required reading.

[Why A Duck]

Originally posted by Legomancer
On the other hand, I've been told by some people that one you read "real" Zen and Buddhism books you won't be much interested in it.

Despite the title, I wouldn't call it a Zen book per se. If I remember right, early in the book Pirsig makes the statement that the book isn't too factual on either Zen or motorcycle maintenance. Sure there are some cool platitudes in there, but I would call it more of a father-son book, a travelogue, an "inquiry into values" to quote the book. Definitely not a Zen primer though.

Before you study Zen, you think it's a cool book.
While you study Zen, you don't think it's a cool book.
After you study Zen, you realize that it is in fact a cool book.
:D

[warmgun]

Legomancer,
I agree with your "elitest" comment, though I must say that ideologies run deep with society.
I've studied and try to make part of my world 'real' Zen. But this in no way takes away the important lessons in ZatAoMM. And it's because we live contemporary American lives.
Like Zen this book has a simple truth. But a lot of complicated concepts must be worked through to get there. I disagree that it's boring...however it took me 3 false starts just to read it the first time. And only after reading it about 3 more times did I start to understand the importance of the 'boring' parts.
If you are interested in Buddhism, you might like Peter Mathesson's The Snow Leopard. Not a whole lot about Buddhism, but a great story nonetheless.

[warmgun]

pcubed, isn't Zen to some degree an "inquiry into values"?

[Why A Duck]

Originally posted by warmgun
pcubed, isn't Zen to some degree an "inquiry into values"?

Yes, but Zen is also a puppy with a wet nose.

[horhay_achoa]

Maybe I wasn't ready for it, but I didn't like ZatAoMM. To preachy.

[thermalribbon]

I read this book right after I got out of college and spent six months bumming around the USA - perfect reading for that time of life. So, while I haven't read it in ten years, it made quite an impression on me. It really works trying to meld the eastern thought / western thought worlds together. Another one that I really liked was The Way of the Peaceful Warrior , another how to use Eastern thought processes in the Western world

[thermalribbon]

sorry that last post was so mangled - but I did like both books

[AHunter3]

You could bring 100 fans of the book into a room to discuss it and get the impression that they had read 100 different and unrelated books.

I loved this well-executed exposition & demonstration of an epistemology that matches my own sense of what meaning and knowledge are about.

I've used it in my own theoretical writings.

[magdalene]

I don't think of it as a study on Zen, but I do think it has something to tell us about life. I like Pirsig and his incredible story and his intellectual curiosity - he's survived a great deal. He's got an enormous ego, but he's got a lot to say. I loved it and try to reread it every year or so when I feel like television and laziness are getting in the way of "gumption" and ideas.

I like his descriptions of what a university should be, and the idea of having classes without grades, and his advice to the students who couldn't think of anything to write about.

[Drastic]

...so the conclusion I've drawn is that Buddhism, like many other religions, has its share of judgemental goofballs.

ding ding ding! Give that man a kewpie doll.

I first read Zen... in college, having stumbled across the entirety of the work on some fellow's webpage. At the time, I was absolutely glued to it, and still enjoy rereading it and Lila (in purchased form) every now and then. The first time through, I would have preferred a bit less length on the philosophical musing bits, being anxious to get back to what was happening with the narrator, especially once the shock of learning exactly what his relationship to Phaedrus was had happened. Subsequent readings, I was able to appreciate much more how the two initially disparate parts of the work reinforced each other.

[dropzone]

So this probably isn't the place to call it one of the most over-rated books of all time and the most annoying piece of horseshit I've ever read? No steps at all above Bridges of Madison County? In fact, worse because it was longer?

Perhaps it was because I read it AFTER reaching fully-jaded adulthood.

[xanakis]

I first read it years ago. I read it because I thought it was one of those books one "ought" to read.

At the time I found it hard going and didnt enjoy it much.

Then, years later, it dawned on me that many of the thought processes I use in general life I originally got from "Zen".

I re-read the book and only then did I realise what a huge impression it had made on me. Almost without me realising it.

It is a fantastic book and I think it probably is required reading. Even if you dont enjoy it or dont really understand what he's going on about half the time. Enough will stick in your mind to make it worthwhile.

Regarding Buddhism, this is not really a "religion" - more a philosophy of life. Buddha is not God in the way that Jesus is considered (by Christians) to be God.

I havent read "Way of the Peaceful Warrior" yet although Ive heard a lot of talk about it.

[toshirodragon]

I wouldn't want to make it required.. forcing something down a person's throat is no way to gain an appreciation for the item.
I read this book when I was in Denver in 1992 just before Christmas. My bf, now hub, was in an in house rehab for head injury and I was there learning to adjust to his handicapped ie being brainwashed into thinking something was wrong with him. The book fit well with my rebelliousness. I enjoyed it. And I decided this past weekend that when I retire from my job in 5 years I am going to take MY son and do a trip similiar to Pirsig's...hopefully with better end results.

[friedo]

There should be no such thing as "required reading."

Nobody should ever be "required" to read a book. Ever. There is no surer method to guarantee that they will hate it.

[xanakis]

I think maybe there is some confusion going on.

In England, the phrase "required reading" doesnt mean "something you are taught in school".

The phrase "required reading" means a book that is amongst the canon of those books one really ought to read before one dies.

So, for example, in the list of "required reading" I would include such books as "Alice in Wonderland", "Winnie the Pooh" or "King Lear".

I think the "required" part of the phrase may have got some peoples backs up but I didnt mean "required" as in "forced", I meant "required" as in "necessary if one is to continue one's ongoing lifelong education in literature and ideas".

I hope you understand what I mean.

[dropzone]

Originally posted by xanakis
In England, the phrase "required reading" doesnt mean "something you are taught in school".
Doesn't make the book any better.
I'll leave quietly.

[obfusciatrist]

I found it to be philosophical claptrap and pretty much a waste of paper. But that probably means that I "didn't get it".

[dropzone]

[Robert Pirsig voice]
Sometimes what you get out of a book is what you bring to it.
[/Robert Pirsig voice]

[warmgun]

dropzone, you lied! you didn't leave at all. :)

I also meant 'required' in a similar vein as xanakis.
obfusciatrist, don't know that will mean much, but I hated it the first 3 times I tried to read it. But like xanakis I found I retained just enough to keep me wanting to understand it better.
I finally slowed my reading pace, comprehension went way up (which is key) and now, like some others here, I re-read it once a year or so.
I read and liked 'The Way of the Peaceful Warrior' as well, though to those interested I would also suggest 'The Snow Leopard'. Not as deep as 'Zen...' but a better narrative.

[obfusciatrist]

So, it isn't possible that I pretty well understood what Pirsig was saying and just disagreed that it was insightful or important. Is it possible for me to understand and still think it is mostly bunk?

I didn't like, I think I understood it. The many discussions I have had of it led others to believe I understood it. I still think it is crap.

I'm open to the idea that if I reread it in 10 years that my response will be different. But the fact that I don't/didn't like it, does not inherently mean I didn't understand it.

[warmgun]

Obfusciatrist,
A thousand pardons.
I re-read your post and saw that you were being facitious. Missed that the first go around.
I'm sure many folks quicker on the up-take than I can read and thoroughly comprehend it in one reading. And, of course, you are free to think it's crap.
I was speaking from my own experience. I thought it was crap my first read, but upon re-reading I understood I didn't "get it".
And, I was also looking for answers, you might be a much more centered guy.

Didn't mean nuthin'. Just trying to help.