From Now On Should the Passengers Creed be To Jump the HiJackers?

[Wildest Bill]

After this maybe we should all agree as fellow air travelers that we should all jump any hi jackers from now on. They have no decency and it probably is our only chance for our survival.

So what do ya'll think? If you are flying and see a hijacker, everybody jump him and do what ever you want to him with no fear of restitution when you get back on the ground. Matter of fact, people that jump the hijackers should be praised as heroes and rewarded by the airlines.

Is it really that crazy of an idea because I think this would be heck of detterent to hijackers.

[lno]

I think you mean 'no fear of retribution'.

[Wildest Bill]

Yea that was the word I meant. Sorry. Thanks Ino. It's just that sexy writer chick has pissed me off so I am not thinking to clearly.

Anyway what do you think of the idea?

[BrotherScrim]

Heck, I would jump a hijacker with fear of retribution. I am willing to test the legal waters in court over whether or not I'm going to jail.

It's better than having Krom judge my bravery for entrance into heaven!

[lieu]

*chuckle* Yeah, if I'm not going to have to pay the guy later, then I'll help kick his ass.

Seriously, these four events have changed everything. Had those first flights had any idea of what they were headed for, they would have fought back too.

I guess it will all depend on the pasenger's PERCEIVED sense of danger. If the guy looks Cuban and we're on a puddlejumper from Key West to Pensacola, I'd probably let him tell my pilot where to go.

If he's Middle Eastern, my plane's got a colon-busting load of fuel and he takes out a pilot or a stewardess, I'm going to initiate eye contact with any other big guys on the plane and coordinate a response that won't just include taking back control, I'd like to end the guy(s) time here on earth. He's so bloody ready to die? Here's a helping hand and a smile.

[Dinsdale]

If anyone attempts to hijack any plane on which I am a passenger, either they will fail, or I will be dead before it is over.

[Wildest Bill]

Originally posted by lieu


If he's Middle Eastern, my plane's got a colon-busting load of fuel and he takes out a pilot or a stewardess, I'm going to initiate eye contact with any other big guys on the plane and coordinate a response that won't just include taking back control, I'd like to end the guy(s) time here on earth. . [/B]

I totally understand what you are saying but I am shocked that no one has called you racist on this?

[BrotherScrim]

I don't consider Lieu's comment racist, really. It makes sense to assume a Cuban on a plane in Florida and an "arab" on a long distance flight to have different goals in a hijacking.

As a matter of fact, I said virtually the same thing yesterday, but since I am Cuban, I said "white guy."

[thinksnow]

Well, Bill, he was saying that if the terrorist was Middle Easter, not just if some random guy was Middle Eastern.

The thrust of his post, if my reading comprehension is up to snuff, is that a flight hijacked by a Cuban looking person in the south of Florida is much more likely to end with the plane landing safely (in Cuba) than one hijacked elsewhere, fully laden with fuel, by someone bearing the racial characteristics of people known to have caused acts of terror in the past.

FWIW, I think that anyone that attempts to hijack a flight I'm on, be they Middle Eastern, Cuban, German, Mexican or Californian, is going face one of two outcomes: they will kill me and whomever I can rally or we will kill them on the spot.

I'm not afraid to tell you this here and now, to have my words recorded for future reference: if someone hijacks a craft I am on, I will take vigilante justice to fullest extreme possible to ensure that they never have the chance to inflict hard on anyone ever again. There will be no insanity or other lawyer tricks, they will simply not have the option of drawing breath.

I stress, though, that this is regardless of race, color or creed, it is for the person that attempts to bring terror to me and those around me.

-Eric, Corporal, USMC

[Superdude]

Originally posted by Dinsdale
If anyone attempts to hijack any plane on which I am a passenger, either they will fail, or I will be dead before it is over.

That's the way I look at it. To paraphrase Harvey Keitel in Reservoir Dogs, "The choice between taking out some low-life punk or gettin' killed by him ain't no choice at all."

[thinksnow]

Woo! Triple-post!

[thinksnow]

...to ensure that they never have the chance to inflict hurt on anyone ever again. There will be no insanity [plea] or other lawyer tricks, they will simply not have the option of drawing breath. [/QUOTE]

[BlackKnight]

I am slight and scrawny compared to many men my age, but I would do whatever I could to stop a hijacker. If I was killed in the process, so be it. There are many less honorable ways to die.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by BlackKnight
I am slight and scrawny compared to many men my age, but I would do whatever I could to stop a hijacker. If I was killed in the process, so be it. There are many less honorable ways to die.

Sit next to me. I am big and strong compared to most men my age, and after I decapitate the bastard through blunt force trauma, I'll let you guard his head. (The drinks will be on me, naturally.)

From now on, the entire equation re: hijacking has changed. It now will be a death match of 150 passengers vs. a few swarthy punks, armed or not.

[RickJay]

Originally posted by thinksnow
I'm not afraid to tell you this here and now, to have my words recorded for future reference: if someone hijacks a craft I am on, I will take vigilante justice to fullest extreme possible to ensure that they never have the chance to inflict hard on anyone ever again. There will be no insanity or other lawyer tricks, they will simply not have the option of drawing breath.

Totally the wrong approach. The scum who would do this sort of thing would be much more useful alive, so that they can be interrogated and their paymasters and leaders tracked down and killed. I'm much rather let Tim The Crazed Hijacker live so I can kill all his buddies than kill him and let the trail grow cold.

[Chez Guevara]

Originally posted by RickJay
The scum who would do this sort of thing would be much more useful alive, so that they can be interrogated and their paymasters and leaders tracked down and killed. I'm much rather let Tim The Crazed Hijacker live so I can kill all his buddies than kill him and let the trail grow cold.


You are talking about people who are willing to die crashing an aeroplane into a tall building.

They are not going to talk.

Furthermore, the cell system employed by many terrorist organisations means that these people probably don't know who most of their buddies are anyway.

If they are killed, and killed by civilian passengers at that, it will demonstrate that hijacking aeroplanes is no longer worth the trouble.

[C Thompson]

Bill, Hell yes I’m with you let jack the hijacker. You jump him from behind, put him in a full nelson I’ll kick him in the cunt and make him grunt, you pull his hair and I’ll poke his eyes than proceed to beat the shit out of him until death and yes I feel just find afterwards. No payment due. These people are low laying scum sucking dog asses, there would be no question we would HERO.

Let throw in a couple more kick to the head, yea yea I like that!

[Wildest Bill]

Originally posted by C Thompson
I?ll kick him in the cunt and make him grunt, [/B]

I'm not sure he has one of those but we could kick him the balls and make him crawl. :D

[RickJay]

Originally posted by Nostradamus
Originally posted by RickJay
The scum who would do this sort of thing would be much more useful alive, so that they can be interrogated and their paymasters and leaders tracked down and killed. I'm much rather let Tim The Crazed Hijacker live so I can kill all his buddies than kill him and let the trail grow cold.


You are talking about people who are willing to die crashing an aeroplane into a tall building.

They are not going to talk.

Nonsense; this isn't a movie. There are lots of nifty psychological tricks for getting people to spill the beans. Interrogation is a fine art, and someone's being a zealot doesn't mean they can't be made to talk. Captured Japanese soldiers during WWII were often quite easy to interrogate because they'd never ben trained on what to do if they were captured. Perhaps the minions of Mr. bin Laden will be similarly vulnerable.

After a few weeks at the hands of skilled interrogators, you'd be surprised who can be a fruitful source of info.

[Chez Guevara]

Originally posted by RickJay
Nonsense; this isn't a movie. There are lots of nifty psychological tricks for getting people to spill the beans. Interrogation is a fine art, and someone's being a zealot doesn't mean they can't be made to talk. Captured Japanese soldiers during WWII were often quite easy to interrogate because they'd never ben trained on what to do if they were captured. Perhaps the minions of Mr. bin Laden will be similarly vulnerable.

After a few weeks at the hands of skilled interrogators, you'd be surprised who can be a fruitful source of info.


Nonsense.

You are an optimist. Presumably you are able to provide me with the many sources of information you have, where one of Osama bin Laden's cohorts has confessed the whereabouts of his partners in crime.

Furthermore, you do not address the likelihood of the person being interrogated knowing nothing of value because of the cell system employed by Osama bin Laden.

[Sasquatch!]

I was thinking about this exact same thing last Tuesday. One lesson to be learned here is that if you're on a plane that gets hijacked, go down swinging. If your plane gets hijacked you're dead anyway, so you might as well try to do everything that you can to prevent further loss of life.

[Delta-9]

You know, given the circumstances, I'd probably do the same thing.

It is, however, uncomfortable for me to listen to you guys talk this way.

I think I'm still in shock.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by Nostradamus
Originally posted by RickJay
Nonsense; this isn't a movie. There are lots of nifty psychological tricks for getting people to spill the beans. Interrogation is a fine art, and someone's being a zealot doesn't mean they can't be made to talk. Captured Japanese soldiers during WWII were often quite easy to interrogate because they'd never ben trained on what to do if they were captured. Perhaps the minions of Mr. bin Laden will be similarly vulnerable.

After a few weeks at the hands of skilled interrogators, you'd be surprised who can be a fruitful source of info.


Nonsense.

You are an optimist. Presumably you are able to provide me with the many sources of information you have, where one of Osama bin Laden's cohorts has confessed the whereabouts of his partners in crime.

Furthermore, you do not address the likelihood of the person being interrogated knowing nothing of value because of the cell system employed by Osama bin Laden.

Nonsense. Torture can yield unbelievably rich information and motivate those bastards to talk like Amway salesmen.

[bernse]

I'd have to say there's a far greater chance of it.

Actually I used to wonder in the past why it hasn't been done more often to knife wielding freaks.

I'd love the opportunity to tie them to a chair and have 30 grown men take turns beating the piece of shit to within an inch of his life.

[Chez Guevara]

Originally posted by tsunamisurfer
Nonsense. Torture can yield unbelievably rich information and motivate those bastards to talk like Amway salesmen.

In reply to this, let us remember above all things that we are on the same side.

I am still looking for sources which tell me that what you and RickJay say is true, with specific reference to those people in the employ of Osama bin Laden. Where is the source material for his terrorists being captured and spilling the beans?

I am still waiting for someone to address the issue of whether it is likely that those under torture would know anything of value, given the cell system used by Osama bin Laden.

Furthermore, you should know that the terrorists trained by Osama bin Laden are Islamic fundamentalists in spades, to the extent that they are not true Muslims at all.

Osama bin Laden chooses people who are capable of such manipulation that he convinces them to kill people in a manner alien to the teachings of the Koran. Further to that, they are told that their reward will come in the afterlife, and that death is glorious. Further to that, they are told that the more pain they experience the better their afterlife will be.

Osama bin Laden may be many things, but a fool he is not.

Finally, I merely comment that RickJay's reference to interrogation has now been transformed into torture by tsunamisurfer.

I remain in favour of passengers on an aircraft taking matters into their own hands. The death of a few terrorists in this way will send a very important message.

[lieu]

Originally posted by Wildest Bill
Originally posted by lieu


If he's Middle Eastern, my plane's got a colon-busting load of fuel and he takes out a pilot or a stewardess, I'm going to initiate eye contact with any other big guys on the plane and coordinate a response that won't just include taking back control, I'd like to end the guy(s) time here on earth. .

I totally understand what you are saying but I am shocked that no one has called you racist on this? [/B]

Well gee, Bill. If the SOB does what I described above then yes, I think I will become one... probably for the full duration of that flight. Until then, even though I'll continue to treat everyone with the full civility we as humans deserve, if it turns out that 100% of these terrorists are proven to originate from a country in a certain ethnic region and I get on a plane where 3 to 6 of them are sitting together looking at me with disgust, out of respect for my own life and the desires of my family yes, I JUST MIGHT STEREOTYPE.

I know what your saying and no, I'm by absolutely no stretch of the imagination a racist. I am a realist.

[Wildest Bill]

Like I said lieu I am not calling you racist at all. You just used common sense.

Tsunamisurfer,

Where were you on my torture thread? Hmmm? I hope you don't get flamed like I did.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by Wildest Bill
Like I said lieu I am not calling you racist at all. You just used common sense.

Tsunamisurfer,

Where were you on my torture thread? Hmmm? I hope you don't get flamed like I did.

I cordially invite one and all to flame me to their heart's delight. The proposition of someone--or everyone--rhetorically attacking me makes me laugh. And when someone on this Board recently threatened to take me to the--gasp!--Pit, my thought was: no, why not just meet me somewhere and, um, try to kick my ass? (Note: I am a tad riled up by the recent attacks; sorry if I don't sound like a Foggy Bottom diplomat.)

Folks, given the trajectory of terror, within a few years my seemingly intemperate remark re: torture will be seen as prescient. Wait till the abject terror of biological and chemical warfare hits our soil--and it will. Entire cities will perish and our weak-willed philosophers will have some explaining to do.

[xanakis]

Nostradamus said:

I am still looking for sources which tell me that what you and RickJay say is true, with specific reference to those people in the employ of Osama bin Laden. Where is the source material for his terrorists being captured and spilling the beans?

A number of Bin Ladens associates have been caught over the years. And, yes, once caught they sang like canaries. See this (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/bombings/bombings.html) website for more info.

I also saw an item about this on todays news. One of Bin Ladens former colleagues has turned into an informant and is protected by the Federal government, although I can't recall his name at the moment.

I am still waiting for someone to address the issue of whether it is likely that those under torture would know anything of value, given the cell system used by Osama bin Laden.

The cell system works in such a way that a member of one cell may know one or two people from another cell, not the names of everyone in that other cell.

But that means they do have some names to give up. Their information may lead you to discover the names of everyone in their own cell (maybe 10 people). But also the names of one or two people in another cell.

So you arrest all the people in the first cell and then you go after that other cell. This other cell may lead you to a third cell and so on.

You follow this trail as far as you are able - who knows you may get lucky and every so often and find a trail that leads to some of the ringleaders.

At least this way there is some chance of catching a few of them. If you kill them, there is NO chance.

Also the information given by a captured terrorist may reveal other things apart from just names. You may get information regarding:

- their mindset, how they think

- planned future operations

- methods which the group uses

- locations where they are based

- the kind of weaponary to which they have access

- where they get this weaponry from

- ways in which you may be able to infiltrate their organisation

- and so on

If, however, you kill the terrorists straight away you have NO CHANCE at all of finding out any information.

Furthermore, you should know that the terrorists trained by Osama bin Laden are Islamic fundamentalists in spades, to the extent that they are not true Muslims at all.

Don't demonise these people - they are just humans. The above link contains information about one guy who was destined to be a suicide bomber but chickened out.

I remain in favour of passengers on an aircraft taking matters into their own hands. The death of a few terrorists in this way will send a very important message.

Yes but the passengers dont need to kill them in order to send terrorists the same message - that in future they may face resistance from the passengers and therefore the success of their mission is jeapordised.

Remember a true suicide bomber isnt frightened of death. They are intending to die anyway. What will bother them is the danger of the mission failing.

We will hurt their organisation much more if we catch them alive and make them talk.

Killing them means nothing to the terrorist group - they were going to die anyway. The loss of that particular foot soldier had already been taken into account.

By killing them, all you are doing is silencing them and destroying what may be an invaluable lead.

[Fern Forest]

Originally posted by Delta-9
You know, given the circumstances, I'd probably do the same thing.

It is, however, uncomfortable for me to listen to you guys talk this way.

I think I'm still in shock.

I don't know. It buoys me. Tells me that the thoughts that I have had are shared across the world and that I have the almost implicit assuredness that we're the unthinkable to happen I would have dozens of pissed-off people at my side and I can look that bastard in the face and say (say it with me)

"Hello, my name is Osiris. Prepare to die."

[Zenster]

Evidently, you missed my "Revised Plane Hijacking Protocol" thread over in Great Debates posted on 09-12-2001 07:09 PM.

PS: Congratulations WB, on making a serious effort to clean up your spelling and grammar.

[handy]

Naw, I think I just sit back & let the pilot pull out his gun & use that & claim the Warsaw Convention law or whatever it is & shoot the hijacker himself. Oh, you didn't know they have guns? Yep, they often do. Dunno what happened to the guns this time.

All the United planes I have been on this year also have phones on the back of the seats. Well, I can't hear so I can't use them maybe the person next to me could make a call about a hijacking for me?

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by xanakis
Don't demonise these people - they are just humans. The above link contains information about one guy who was destined to be a suicide bomber but chickened out.

I agree with most of your post, but they *are* demons.

[quote]I remain in favour of passengers on an aircraft taking matters into their own hands. The death of a few terrorists in this way will send a very important message... Yes but the passengers dont need to kill them in order to send terrorists the same message - that in future they may face resistance from the passengers and therefore the success of their mission is jeapordised.

Remember a true suicide bomber isnt frightened of death. They are intending to die anyway. What will bother them is the danger of the mission failing.By killing them, all you are doing is silencing them and destroying what may be an invaluable lead. [/B]

Agreed, but while they're still on the plane and before their attorney utters his first word in court, I would suggest beating the living shit out of them and making them pray to Allah, to Mohammed, to Satan, Jesus and Mother Mary that they were never born. By that, I am talking about a beating so gruesome that they are actually praying for death--but then holding back just enough so they don't actually die. These bastards may not fear a quick, painless death, but a drawn-out mauling? Well, I say we do it and then administer a questionnaire afterward.

What are the pacifists on this Board going to do when horrific biological/chemical warfare is unleashed on America and people by the millions are dead or permanently crippled? Sing "Give Peace a Chance?"

Osama bin Laden is empowered by our pacifism and emboldened by timid half-measures. He and everything he loves must be crushed.

[capacitor]

The right thing to do is diarm them, then "layeth the smacketh down" and pin the guys. Then strip them of all of their clothing and hog-tie them. Have him stay that way for the rest of the fight. Don't beat them up; they are used to flagellation, doing it on themselves. Subject the guys to some verbal and doable niceities. Act, well, capitalist. Before you land, call the airport for the emergency chute. After you land, say some snide remark and roll them down the chute, buck naked and tied, to the cops.

A terrorist's real fear is of people not being scared of him at all, making him small.

[Johnny L.A.]

Then strip them of all of their clothing and hog-tie them. Have him stay that way for the rest of the fight.
And get the female passengers and cabin crew stand around and make fun of the hijackers' penises. You know, the thumb and forefinger sign of "tiny". Say things like, "Ooh! It's just a piccolo!" or "Hey, does anyone have a magnifying glass? Thanks. Nope, still too small to see." or "You can fuck with that thing?" We've all heard how people from places that have a lot of terrorists living in them can treat their women poorly. Payback is a bitch.
After you land, say some snide remark and roll them down the chute, buck naked and tied, to the cops.
Wouldn't they get friction burns?

Although I would not be particularly annoyed if a hijacker got dead. Or if his femurs were "accidentally" broken. Or if he fell on a pen, twice, and his eyes were poked out. But I agree that the intelligence that could be had from him is worth more than a corpse.

[capacitor]

spellcheck!!!!

That's disarm.

[xanakis]

Don't get me wrong - I'm all in favour of giving Bin Laden (or whoever it was) a really good kicking every single day he spends in prison for the rest of his miserable life.

I just don't think we should kill them, they could be useful.

[Rysdad]

I had the pleasure of being on a flight to San Diego whereupon the flight attendant "cut off" a guy who was obviously drunk. He took umbrage at that and complained, loudly, that he was going to "see the captain." One of the flight officers (I don't know if it was the captain, first officer or what) came back and told him, politely, to pipe down. He did for a few minutes, then he got up and started heading for the cockpit. Another gentleman and I got in front of him and explained that he would not be allowed anywhere near the door.

The police were waiting for him when we landed.

I believe any future hijackers would need more than knives or box cutters to take over an aircraft.

[magi376]

THERES NO IF'S AND'S OR BUT'S EVERYONE MUST BE AWARE THAT THE FLIGHT IN PENN. THEY DID FIGHT FOR THEIR LIVES, LOOK AT WHERE IT WENT DOWN. I DOUBT IF THE OTHER PLANES KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON UNTILL IT WAS TOO LATE TO DO ANYTHING. I WOULD LIKE TO THINK I AS A WOMEN WOULD BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO ALSO TAKE A STAND AND TAKE THEM OUT.I SURE WOULD GIVE IT MY BEST SHOT IF I WERE GOING TO DIE ANYWAY WHAT WOULD I HAVE TO LOSE?
CONSTANCE

[Russell]

i certainly believe you should try and fight them, especially if you KNOW you are gonna get killed anyway!

i found interesting advice in a fatwa i picked up on http://www.fatwa-online.com which goes like this:

Hijacking planes and ships

Question: There are some people who hijack a plane or a ship, and do so to apply pressure upon the country to which this plane or ship is headed. It is possible they threaten to kill the passengers, and in some cases actually kill some of them, until their demands are met. So what is the ruling about such actions, especially since such actions terrify the passengers?

Response: It is upon (every) country to provide sufficient security to prevent the likes of these rebels from taking over (planes or ships). It is upon the (respective) country to provide every airline with security (whilst on their land) which is sufficient to resist any hijack attempts by the aggressors; just as they should also co-ordinate a full (passenger) inspection prior to (their) boarding. Thus, they should not permit anyone to proceed (to board) until after they have ascertained that no-one is in possession of weapons even if it be (a piece of) metal (bar or the like). In addition to this, some gangs force the aircraft to divert to another destination, SO IF THERE ARE (AMONGST THE CREW OR PASSENGERS) ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT PHYSICAL TRAINING TO OVERPOWER THEM, THEN THE REBELS' PLANS WILL BE DESTROYED.

So there is no doubt that hijacking is a mistake, ignorance and falsehood. Further, it is a transgression beyond the limits causing terror to the passengers, and threatening them with that which they have no power to carry out, and Allaah knows best.

Shaykh Ibn Jibreen
Kayfa Nu'aalij Waaqi'unaa al-Aleem - Page 113

[Broomstick]

Hell, yes, fight back!

Not just the big guys. I'm a little short squirt of a woman but I'd have a go at a hijacker, too. The way some of these people discount women they'd probably never suspect one of fighting back. Might have an element of surprise that would let me take one out while they're "dealing with" the six-foot rugby players.

If attempts to use airlines as bombs result in the hijackers dead and their mission incomplete then they will stop doing this.

On the other hand - they'll look for some other way to hurt us. Or maybe just start killing all the passengers prior to taking the controls.

[Johnny L.A.]

Or maybe just start killing all the passengers prior to taking the controls.
Relying on a couple of givens:
1. No bombs. Tightened security finds them.
2. No guns. Same reason.

They can't kill everyone.

[manhattan]

Originally posted by tsunamisurfer
Folks, given the trajectory of terror, within a few years my seemingly intemperate remark re: torture will be seen as prescient. Just what the world needs. More fucking terrorists.

Guess they succeeded after all.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by manhattan
Originally posted by tsunamisurfer
Folks, given the trajectory of terror, within a few years my seemingly intemperate remark re: torture will be seen as prescient. Just what the world needs. More fucking terrorists.

Guess they succeeded after all.

You're shrill hysteria is simply breathtaking. Get out a little and get some sun.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by manhattan
Originally posted by tsunamisurfer
Folks, given the trajectory of terror, within a few years my seemingly intemperate remark re: torture will be seen as prescient. Just what the world needs. More fucking terrorists.

Guess they succeeded after all.

Let me add that your response was assinine and totally uncalled for an, um, distinguished moderator.

Is vile name-calling kosher on the Boards outside the Pit? If so, let me know and I'd be glad to reciprocate in kind. Otherwise, knock it off.

[capacitor]

Ooh, Tsunami has cujones, considering we were worried about manhattan's whereabouts a few days ago.

Tsunami, cool off alright?

[Lockfist]

Would it be possible to simply open the emergency door on the plane ? Would the change in air pressure suck everyone not belted in out of the plane ?

The problem with a terrorist on the plane is that you do not want to jeopordize the entire plane if the hijaker is simply going to land the plane and make demands. That would by my first instinct if I were on a hijaked plane. If it become obvious that I was going to die, then I would certainly take whatever action I could. Otherwise I'd be inclined to wait it out.

[Johnny L.A.]

No. The hatches open inward before they open outward. This is so the pressurization of the cabin pushes them against their seals, creating a stronger, better seal. Also, who would open the emergency exits? They are secured and opened manually.

[manhattan]

Just to confirm Johnny L.A.'s correct answer and affirm that the fight to eradicate ignorance never takes a break, Cecil Adams (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_390.html) on airplane doors at altitude.

And tsunamisurfer, I consider you to be one of the casualties of Tuesday's attacks. I mourn your loss.

If you do some reading on whether torture is actually effective (it's not), you may come to change your mind. And with time, maybe your heart, too. I'd like that, and I'd be the first to welcome you back to the world of civilized human beings.

[used my moderator superpowers to fix the link. -manhattan]

[Edited by manhattan on 09-16-2001 at 11:17 AM]

[tsunamisurfer]

I'm cool, Capacitor, but since I've been slammed by a moderator, let me clarify my position on torture of terrorists.

Let's say our Special Forces soon invade a terrorist camp and discover chemical/biological warfare agents inside the compound (which has already happened, BTW). Let's also say that a couple of terrorists are caught, yet refuse to disclose anything about means of delivery or timetable.

If it's clear that these weapons of mass destruction (WMD) are going to be used against innocent Americans, then I have ZERO problem torturing captives to make them talk. The clock is ticking. Playing by the rules may cause catastrophic damage to our nation.

I am saddened but convinced that, in less than 10 years, untold tens of thousands of Americans will perish or be permanently crippled due to WMD's, such as anthrax, small pox, nerve has and possibly nuclear weapons. It will wreak havoc on our economy, our domestic security, and our precious civil liberties.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by manhattan
And tsunamisurfer, I consider you to be one of the casualties of Tuesday's attacks. I mourn your loss.

If you do some reading on whether torture is actually effective (it's not), you may come to change your mind. And with time, maybe your heart, too. I'd like that, and I'd be the first to welcome you back to the world of civilized human beings.

I mourn your arrogance and naivete. Stick to moderating and save your phony sympathies for someone else.

[You've been warned before. 'Nuff said-Czarcasm]

[Edited by Czarcasm on 09-16-2001 at 11:59 AM]

[Rysdad]

There was an airline pilot on TV yesterday that, among other things, said that wearing seatbelts is strongly advised. He said words to the effect that, if he knew a hijacker was trying to enter the cockpit, there were things they could do to "throw the airplane all over the sky." They could even depressurize the cabin.

I wonder...what would happen to a DC-10 doing an Immelmann?

How about if they cut power and nosed over so it was like the Vomit Comet...everyone weightless?

Can you imagine being a passenger on the flight, and the tale you'd have to tell afterwards?

Just hope you're not in the can.

[tsunamisurfer]

If news sources are correct regarding the plane that crashed near Pittsburg, only three (3) passengers are *believed* to have confronted the hijackers. Three unarmed men against 5-6 armed men are bad odds, especially considering the innocents were hearded into the back and would have had to run all the way to the front--in the open.

I might also add that one of the passengers in the back of the plane had left his/her telephone on during the entire episode, and the listener on the other end later said s/he could hear the crowd scream once, followed by a pause, followed by another long mass scream that s/he described as sounding like people plunging down a roller coaster ride. After another pause, the phone went dead.

[Lockfist]

Just to confirm Johnny L.A.'s correct answer and affirm that the fight to eradicate ignorance never takes a break, Cecil Adams on airplane doors at altitude.

Oh Johnny L.A. and manhattan, my plan was perfect until you meddling kids came by ! Ignorance is bliss or so they say.

[TubaDiva]

We understand that this is a difficult and traumatic time for everyone, most of all those that had this horror happen directly to them, like our dear friend Manhattan.

Anyone that would insult and harass him -- or anyone else -- during this time is truly insensitive and maybe even a little cruel.

While we may serve in some way as a sounding board, a place to talk things out, we never want to be a place where people exchange ignorance and rattle sabers.

tsunamisurfer, you been way out of line here. I'm fully prepared to throw your sorry self out. Give me a reason not to.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by TubaDiva
tsunamisurfer, you been way out of line here. I'm fully prepared to throw your sorry self out. Give me a reason not to.

MANHATTAN:

Please accept my apologies for my intemperate remarks to you after you called me a terrorist and suggested I am not part of the human race after I had previously said that torture of terrorists should not be ruled out (in extreme cases). I feel such pain for the people in NY that I cannot describe it. I am a lover of life and people. But when terrorists threaten this country, I believe they should be dealt with harshly. Again, my apologies.

tsunamisurfer

[tsunamisurfer]

MANNY:

To my great shock and dismay, I just learned last night from TUBADIVA that you were in the middle of the disaster that struck NYC, lost several friends, and personally witnessed the tragic events unfold.

May I again offer my humblest apologies and extend my most heartfelt condolences. I had no idea. I now pray that you and your loved ones somehow recover from this horrible ordeal.

humbly yours,

tsunamisurfer

[manhattan]

Eh, don't worry about that.

But please consider what I was saying (if not the tone in which I said it).

This war isn't about landmark buildings, or lost friends, or bombing this target or that one in retaliation, or even about catching those responsible (although we must do that).

This war is about us. The very idea of a civilized society and a civilized people was attacked and badly injured last week.

Please don't lose this war for yourself before we've even begun to fight. Torture is what the North Vietnamese did to our POW's. Torture is what guys like them do to guys like us. Not the other way around.

Please spend some time on the Amnesty International page or some similar place. You will learn that not only is torture wrong for civilized people, it doesn't even work!

We'll get our vengeance. We'll make those who lack the moral backbone not to engage in terror at least fear the consequences. But we'll do it in a way that we can be proud of.