Ender's Game, Speaker For The Dead, Xenocide? (Possible spoilers)

[Joe_Cool]

I've read Ender's Game 6 or 7 times, and I absolutely love that book. It's one of my favorites ever. In fact, I purposely didn't read Speaker For The Dead because I thought no sequel could live up to the quality of the first book.

Until last week. I burned through both books in 3 days, completing my first trip through Lusitania, and I loved the second one just as much, though it's very different.

So, who has read the whole Ender series? Do you recommend that I read Xenocide? Or should I quit while I'm ahead.

*****Spoilers are ok as long as you put a spoiler warning*****

I wouldn't mind a discussion of the first two books in this thread either, but I'm not going to start it.

[RealityChuck]

The first two books are excellent. "Xenocide" and "Children of the Mind" failed to impress me; the latter was prone to too much pontificating.

[Speaker for the Dead]

The last two books were (supposedly) written on contract instead of for pure joy. I only got about halfway through Xenocide.

[Samui]

Personally, I didn't like Xenocide, particularly the ending... but Children of the mind was good and there by made Xenocide (the weird ending resolves it's self).
What you should read, with out a doubt, is Ender's shadow. Ender's Shadow is the same story as Ender's game but from the perspective of Bean. IMO I thought Ender's shadow was better.

[LifeOnWry]

I have to disagree with everyone here. I thought Xenocide was excellent, and I thought Children of the Mind was a weak attempt to wrap the story up cleanly.

I also did not like Ender's Shadow very much, but I will say that may have been a personal thing -- I found the specifics of Bean's background disturbing because of his age.

Joe_Cool, I'd love to discuss any and all of the books you mentioned. You go first :)

[Joe_Cool]

SPOILER WARNING!!!!!


Originally posted by LifeOnWry
Joe_Cool, I'd love to discuss any and all of the books you mentioned. You go first :)

Ok, ok, if you insist. One thing struck me that I hadn't noticed before on my last reading. I don't know if there's any controversy about it, but I believe that on some level, Ender knew going in that it wasn't just a game. I believe he let himself be convinced that it was.

I don't have my copy here, so I can't cite passages, but I'll know them when I see them. It was connected with his dreams.

Sorry, but that's the best thing that I can think of. Hope it's good enough as a discussion seed.

[Edited by Ukulele Ike on 09-26-2001 at 11:45 AM]

[Mofo Rising]

I thought Speaker for the Dead was a great book, definitely a worthy follow up to Ender's Game. I was with Xenocide until the end. Children of the Mind was unimpressive overall. Definitely a mediocre effort.

S P O I L E R S ! (But only if you haven't read the last two books.)

The part that really lost me and removed me from the series was when Ender split into his three separate bodies/personalities. An interesting idea, but fatally flawed characterwise. Which may be the main gripe I have with the entire last book. Card was always at risk of letting his characters speak the philosophy of the book at the sacrifice of their actual character. I think he completely loses his handle in the last book. All the characters are always arguing a certain point back and forth. But it feels like they are arguing this point because they must for Card to make his point, not because of what their insides tell them. The splitting of Ender makes this gripe blatantly physical.

Don't even get me started on the actual end of the series. If it took two books to wrap up all the plot points in Xenocide, why introduce the descolada planet and leave us hanging at that? Very unprofessional, Orson.

Guess I'll go read Ender's Game and forgive him all over again.

[Venkman]

I've read all of them multiple times, and will read the new books (Shadow of the Giant and Shadow of Death are the working titles, I believe) as soon as they are published.

Read them. I liked Xenocide a lot. Not as good as either Ender or Speaker, but very good. Children of the Mind is (IMHO) the weakest book of the whole bunch, but if you're in this far you might as well read it. If you don't you'll always wonder about it and it doesn't suck THAT much.

Ender's Shadow is pretty good, mainly because you get to know Bean a lot better. Shadow of the Hegemon was on about the same level, good but not great.

I really hope that future books explore the character of Peter in some detail. Since he's kind of Ender's alter ego (I know, I know, he's just half of it and Val is the other half, but Val is the good half and therefore just a little boring) I think he's the second most interesting character in the whole series.

So in my personal rating scale, Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead are on a level all by themselves that few books of any type have ever reached. Xenocide, Ender's Shadow, and Shadow of the Hegemon are good enjoyable books but not earth-shaking. Children of the Mind is pretty weak and only worth a read because if you don't you'll always wonder what you missed.

[Joe_Cool]

I was a little disappointed when I started Speaker For The Dead, because like you, I wanted to read more about Peter. I was really hoping I'd get to read "The Hive Queen and the Hegemon" when I read it. That is what I'd really like to see as part of the series.

[Ferrous]

I read anything I can get my hands on by Card. I absolutely loved Ender's Game, and have read it many times. I also thought Speaker for the Dead was very good, though not on a level with EG. I enjoyed Xenocide, for the most part. Especially the stuff on the world of Path and OCD. For Children of the Mind, I would have to concur with the general opinion here: not so great, but you have to read it anyway.
And I really, really like Ender's Shadow! I think I maybe liked it even better than Ender's Game, although I don't know if I would have liked it as much had I not read Ender's Game first. Ender's Game was one of OSC's earlier efforts, before he was prone to writing such large tomes. So he had a chance to really flesh out the story in ES.
I haven't read Shadow of the Hegemon yet. I'm waiting for the paperback. ($23 for a book? No, thanks.)

BTW,
(I suppose this could really be another thread, but...)
Anybody read Pastwatch? I thought it was pretty impressive.

[middleman]

My local library has a very good OSC selection. They even have the HC Shadow of the Hegemon (of course I bought it first). Card is far and away my favorite writer. He has a pretty good message board himself over at http://www.hatrack.com.

I agree with the assessment. Ender's Game is the best. Speaker is incredible. The remaining two have their momnets. NOTE: I read once (possibly in the intro) that Xenocide and Children of the Mind were once intended to be ONE book, but expanded into two.

I love the Bean series. Hegemon really stopped being TOO Sci-Fi and became more military strategy. (Getting past the ten year old genius/generals). I will certainly get the next two novels.

As for other Card books, I enjoyed all five Homecoming novels. I have read the first Alvin Maker novel, but I notice that he is not prioritizing that series as a series to finish, so I am waiting for him to put a few more out before proceeding with book 2.

I read Worthing Saga. It is a group of related short stories. Hard Sci-Fi. Good stuff.

I even read Folk of the Fringe. A post apocalyptic world where Mormons (OSC is a devout Mormon)rebuild America. I'm not Mormon, but the book wasn't "preachy." If you hate all things religious, this may not be the book for you. Good story telling. Also in related short story format.

I also bought his non-fiction, How to Write Sci-Fi.

I have a copy of Lost Boys, but haven't read it. I really want to read Pastwatch.

[Venkman]

I'd kill for a chance to read "The Hive Queen and the Hegemon"! Although having said that I don't think OSC should so much as let the thought of writing such a thing drift through the most remote reaches of his mind. No way could it ever live up to my expectations.

The Homecoming series was OK, not great. I liked Folk of the Fringe, really liked Worthing Saga. Pastwatch I thought was his best effort (at least non-Ender related) in a long time, very good.

The Alvin Maker series has been mostly good but is in serious danger of going nowhere and dragging on forever if the last book (forget the name) is any indication. I'm getting to the point that I think it might be more interesting to follow Taleswapper around than Alvin.

He does a very good job with short stories as well. I really liked the one that goes into some detail of Ender and Jane's first meeting, but I can't think of any of his short stories I haven't enjoyed.

On the other hand Treasure Box, Lost Boys, Wyrms, and Songbird didn't do much for me at all. Never read Hart's Hope, or the Mormon saga book (Saints?), but probably will eventually.

I read the fairy-tale book (the title escapes me) and liked that too.

Can you tell I'm a fan?

[LifeOnWry]

Ender knew going in that it wasn't just a game. I believe he let himself be convinced that it was.

Well, I can't make too much of this discussion-wise, as you haven't read the book yet that explores this. But I will say that you're pretty observant to note that it is WORTH exploring. I think it is alluded to in the first book, too.

Are any of you familiar with Card's religious beliefs and how he explores them himself through his writing? He's a pretty outspoken Mormon, and I find it very interesting that in the Ender books, he almost seems to be making a case in favor of secularity (is that a word?)

[Cougarfang]

[minimally fractional hijack]
anyone read Ender's Shadow yet? it's just basically Ender's Game from Bean's point of view. it gives some verrrrrrrrrrrry interesting background about Bean... (i know, i know, no spoilers. just some teeeeeeeasing hints... :D) I think Ender's Shadow is as good as Ender's Game, actually. but Ender's Game is already really good.
[/hijack]

[middleman]

Originally posted by LifeOnWry
Ender knew going in that it wasn't just a game. I believe he let himself be convinced that it was.

Well, I can't make too much of this discussion-wise, as you haven't read the book yet that explores this. But I will say that you're pretty observant to note that it is WORTH exploring. I think it is alluded to in the first book, too.

Are any of you familiar with Card's religious beliefs and how he explores them himself through his writing? He's a pretty outspoken Mormon, and I find it very interesting that in the Ender books, he almost seems to be making a case in favor of secularity (is that a word?) On his website, he has a Q and A section where he answers this question specifically.

[LifeOnWry]

(note to self: Read, THEN post. Read, THEN post.)

watsonwil, have you got a link handy? I've read some of Card's non-fictional writing, but most of it was sent to me edited, as a debate topic, so I'm only familiar with a bit. It will be interesting to pursue this.

[middleman]

http://www.hatrack.com/research/questions/index.shtml

[dpr]

Ender's shadow

Know Ender's Game is one of my all-time faves. And bean was one of the better character's/ So I was extremely eager for Ender's Shadow, but I have to say that overall it was quite a disappointment.

Bean was TOO intelligent. TOO developed. And most importantly far too knowledgable of what was going on. It would have been far more interesting to see ot from the persepctive of the Bean we'd known in the original. The petulant but talented kid who was in the dark like all the others. From a literary standpoint I can see how it would have made a lesser story in its own right but let's face it - who was reading it in its own right? It was a supplemental (a sure thing for diehard fans) - it didn't need Bean to be approaching God status.

Personal opinion but his advanced state ruined it a little for me. It was great fun reading and coming accross familiar dialogue again especially from the other perspectives, but the undercurrent let me down a bit. Enjoyed it but nowhere near as much as I'd hoped or expected to.

[Ferrous]

Ender's Shadow SPOILER****************












dpr,

Did you not get it that Bean was genetically engineered to be a super genius?
Still, it did perhaps go a bit far, him being smart enough to hide out in a toilet tank at less than a year old...
But it wasn't much of a problem for me, anyway.

[LifeOnWry]

RESPONSE TO SPOILER CONTAINING ADDITIONAL SPOILERS:











Tapswiller: Did you not get it that Bean was genetically engineered to be a super genius?

dpr: It would have been far more interesting to see ot from the persepctive of the Bean we'd known in the original. The petulant but talented kid who was in the dark like all the others.

Tapswiller, I think he gets it. I think he'd prefer if Bean was an ordinary kid with an ordinary viewpoint, which we would have assumed of his character from the first book. It's hinted to that Bean is extremely smart, but he seems altogether more human in the first book. Then, Card goes on to say that, really, Bean isn't quite. I also think this book very much diminishes Ender's story, because we find out that Bean was manipulating him, as well. Ender is supposed to be this very insightful kid, who can figure out what people are trying to get from him -- and if Bean's story is "true" (in fictional terms of course) then Ender really isn't... which calls his later insights into question as well.

[middleman]

Originally posted by LifeOnWry
I also think this book very much diminishes Ender's story, because we find out that Bean was manipulating him, as well. Ender is supposed to be this very insightful kid, who can figure out what people are trying to get from him -- and if Bean's story is "true" (in fictional terms of course) then Ender really isn't... which calls his later insights into question as well.
I am not sure I agree with this. For the first time in the history of a message board, I mean that literally and without sarcasm. Which is to say, I am undecided. Does Bean's tale diminish Ender. Three thoughts came to mind when I read BEan's books.
(1) Since it is from the perspective of Bean, maybe his unblemished confidence skewed the view. Basically, he gave himself too much credit. Nothing in the book suggests this, it was just a feeling. Perhaps because I already had a high opinion of Ender's character while reading the book.
(2) Bean's genetic enhancement actually brings Ender back up a notch. Becuase of Card's narrative in the EG, I too was jealous when Bean got bumped up to Command School. He was doing something earlier than Ender. Now, since he was genetically altered, it somehow "righted" that. Don't ask me why.
(3) Did Bean's machinations matter? Would Ender have saved the universe anyway? It's been a while since I've read them, but I got the feeling that despite Bean's role in it, it was still Ender's Game.

[Ferrous]

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE TO....MORE SPOILERS




Hmmm...trying to figure out how I feel about this as I go along. Bear with me...

I don't feel that Ender's story is dimished by the revelations about Bean. A great deal of the story after Ender's Game goes to point out that, in fact, Ender was not the infallible genius he believed himself to be. He could and did make mistakes. Witness his somewhat thoughtless assumption that Val wanted to follow him all over the galaxy, and all his problems with Novinha and her children. I think that it was this realization about himself (that he, like everybody else, often made and acted on unfounded assumptions about people), that led him to his career as a Speaker. In other words, he needed to really pay attention to people and figure out what makes them tick because in the past he had dealt with them only on the basis of how they affected him. So the fact that he was unaware of the extent to which Bean was misleading him does not seem necessarily inconsistent.

On the other hand, there are certainly hints that Ender was aware of what Bean was doing to a greater extent than he allowed Bean to believe. Also instances that showed Bean was not quite as clever as he believed himself to be. For example, his misunderstanding of the role that (damn! can't remember her name---the top girl student) had in Ender's confrontation with Achilles.

Also, I think the fact of Bean being, in fact, a great deal smarter than Ender, and a better tactician, illustrates the point of what the actual qualities of a good leader are. Ender was selected, not just for his tactical genius, but for his abilities to inspire loyalty and his understanding of group dynamics.

As for wishing Bean was more like an ordinary kid, well, there were no ordinary kids in Battle School. That was the point. If you (as an author) want to have someone be the best of the best of the best, you have to go to extremes.

Anyway, to reiterate the part of my last post that you didn't quote, I see your (and dpr's) point, but I liked the book anyway.

[middleman]

Originally posted by Tapswiller
Also, I think the fact of Bean being, in fact, a great deal smarter than Ender, and a better tactician, illustrates the point of what the actual qualities of a good leader are. Ender was selected, not just for his tactical genius, but for his abilities to inspire loyalty and his understanding of group dynamics.
Excellent point. I forgot this one. I also remember thinking of this when I read ES. Doesn't Bean actually mention something to this effect at one point?

[Ferrous]

Doesn't Bean actually mention something to this effect at one point?
Yes, IIRC. Actually, I believe it is brought up in Ender's Game as well.

[middleman]

Thanks. I think I need to re-read them soon.


For a really great Sci-Fi read, check out Dark Beyond the Stars by Frank M. Robinson. A sci/fi Noir feeling.

[Caracticus Potts]

I got the impression from "Children of the Mind" that Card was trying to cram as much closing philosophy into the book as he possibly could. A lot of speeches by different characters all expressing the same points.

[LifeOnWry]

Tapswiller & watsonwil -- Actually, you both make good points I hadn't necessarily taken into consideration. On my next re-read, I will endeavor to examine those more closely.

FWIW, though, I freely admit that I much preferred Speaker and Xenocide to the other books, as I got way more into the religious and political stuff than I did into the tactical and military. Maybe it's a girl thing :)

[king of spain]

Good timing on this thread - I'm on a big Card kick in the past week or so - finally finished Shadow of the Hegemon and went on to Seventh Son and Red Prophet.

Ender's Game is one of my favorite books in all the world and, to date, the only book that's ever made me tear up even the second time I read it. I checked out Speaker for the Dead from the library once but wasn't able to get into it. Probably I'll go back to it one day.

The Shadow Saga is a different story, though - much more of the stuff I liked Ender's Game for, right off the bat. It's not as tightly plotted (see below) or generally wonderful as Ender's Game, and I actually liked the Bean of Ender's Shadow substantially less than the one in Ender's Game - but if the military tactics and the development of the political situation on Earth were part of what attracted you to Ender's Game, you'll definitely want to check it out.

The Alvin Maker books - well, they're fairly well-written and everything, but the story hasn't really grabbed me. Alvin's world - an alternate version of our world around 1800 or so, where history's taken a few different turns, and folk magic works - is very cool, but I don't see that holding my interest for the entire series.

Hart's Hope was good but deeply weird, and I still don't think I really understood it. Will have to revisit it sometime when I feel like being depressed.

I had one major problem with Ender's Shadow...SPOILERS BELOW
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I don't have the book with me, so I can't provide a cite, but I distinctly remember some of the characters making reference to the buggers/Formics being a hive mind - BEFORE Ender defeats them. It seems like common knowledge, which to me destroys some of the impact of Ender's genius in Ender's Game - there it seemed like this huge intuitive leap that no one but people like Ender and Mazer Rackham could make. Did this bother anyone else, or was I misunderstanding it, or what?

[WantNot]

[As for other Card books, I enjoyed all five Homecoming novels. I have read the first Alvin Maker novel, but I notice that he is not prioritizing that series as a series to finish, so I am waiting for him to put a few more out before proceeding with book 2.]

The first OSC books I read were the Homecoming series, and they were so different from other Sci-Fi books I've read that they actually made it impossible for me to pick up another book for almost 6 months. I then read Enders Game. It was incredible and I was not disappointed.

Anyway, I then read Songbird, The Worthing Saga, Treasure Box and then the Alvin Maker series. Unlike many of the other posters here, I enjoyed all of them on different levels and for different reasons. I read the Alvin series after reading the Harry Potter series, so it kind of went with the whole "magic" trip I was on.

The thing I like most about OSC as an author is the fact that all of his series are different, but somehow, they all seem to co-mingle with each other, as well. When I read The Worthing Saga, I got a lot more out of it because I had read both the Homecoming Series and the Alvin Maker series.

Presently, I am reading Enders Shadow and quite enjoying it. I have read Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide and Children of the Mind, and I honestly didn't think any of them were "weak" in the terms I've seen posted on this forum.

I would like to see a new Enders book which goes into the rest of the story (first 4 books), as I feel like it isn't over. Peter would be a very good character follow on with, as would Wang-mu for that matter. And I, for one, loved the whole Jane thing and how that all worked itself out!

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I thought the Alvin series was a very good, fluid read, with the only exception being (as is in the typical OSC style) the mandatory mindshift that is required at the beginning of the second book. (It seems to me that the second books in his series require you to step outside the original story for a while until both stories kind of thread back together - not so much with the Homecoming series, though, but definitely with Alvin Maker and Enders.)