General questions

[Krispy Original]

Is a General a higher ranking officer at the Pentagon than is an Admiral?

Has anyone in US military history ever been named an honorary General?

What is the maximum number of stars that a General can earn?...and how do they earn the stars anyway?

What is the ratio of female to male Generals in the active US military?

Thanks,

Krispy Original

(and Nickrz, hopefully these are worthy of general questions)

To answer a couple of your questions:

General and Admiral are equivalent ranks in different services. The Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps has Generals. The Navy and Coast Guard has Admirals.

The ranks from highest to lowest are:
General of the Army (Air Force)/Fleet Admiral
General/Admiral
Lieutenant General/Vice Admiral
Major General/Rear Admiral, Upper Half
Brigadier General/Rear Admiral, Lower Half

Two American officers have been named to a higher rank: George Washington and John Pershing were both promoted to the rank of General of the Armies. Washington however never technically assumed the rank during his lifetime.

Brigadier Generals have one star. Each promotion above that merits an additional star. Pershing therefore was theoretically entitled to wear six. In actuality, he never wore more than four. The highest anyone has ever worn is five.

[John W. Kennedy]

And in case anyone is wondering what a "Rear Admiral" is, it reflects the historic fact that in the days before both radio and rotating gun turrets, it was important to have an extra admiral at the back of your line of ships, in case you had to turn it around. That was the job given to new admirals.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[Ursa Major]

I thought the equivalent of a one star (brig.) general in the Navy was a Commadore. I must admit that I haven't heard of anybody with that rank since, maybe, the Spanish-American War. Why did they change it to something lame like "Rear Admiral/Lower Half? (sounds a little redundant - Rear=Lower Half, right?)

[Kat]

Libertarian: take a look at Why does a lt. gen. outrank a maj. gen., but a maj. outranks a lt.? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325a.html)

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Your Official Cat Goddess since 10/20/99.

"I get along well with everybody." --I.M.F.

[Lumpy]

The rank of Commodore originated in the British Navy. Back a couple hundred years ago, promotion to Admiral was based on a strict seniority basis; when an Admiral died, whichever Captain had the most time in rank was promoted. This created a situation where good Captains where unable to command fleets because they lacked seniority. The solution was to create the rank of Commodore. A Commodore was a Captain who basically was doing an Admiral's job without the actual rank. Eventually, the promotion system
loosened up and officers doing an Admiral's job were given the actual rank.Based solely on what I've read in C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower novels, this looks about right. But I'd been under the impression that commodores didn't command full fleets, but rather squadrons or task forces- small groups of ships working in physical proximity on a specific assignment.

The rank of Commodore originated in the British Navy. Back a couple hundred years ago, promotion to Admiral was based on a strict seniority basis; when an Admiral died, whichever Captain had the most time in rank was promoted. This created a situation where good Captains where unable to command fleets because they lacked seniority. The solution was to create the rank of Commodore. A Commodore was a Captain who basically was doing an Admiral's job without the actual rank. Eventually, the promotion system loosened up and officers doing an Admiral's job were given the actual rank.

[Random]

I thought Commodore was a post, rather than a rank in the RN of that period. In other words, a captain assigned to command a fleet would be a Commodore for the mission, but only for the length of the mission. I agree with Mike's reasoning for the practice, though.

It may have been different in the American navy, where there initially was some egalitarian sentiment against having Admirals at all. I think Commodore may have been the top rank here as a result.

[Liberal]

Something about the American military ranks that had always bothered me shows up in Mike King's list. A major is several ranks above a lieutenant, yet a lieutenant general outranks a major general.

Twilight zone, I had always thought, until someone explained it to me, after which I felt like a moron for not figuring it out before. As it happens, the adjectives at the level of general do not recapitulate those of the lower officer ranks, but of the higher! After major, they continue, lieutenant colonel, then colonel. Therefore,

major - major general

lieutenant colonel - lieutenant general

colonel - general


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"It is lucky for rulers that men do not think." — Adolf Hitler

[John W. Kennedy]

There were exactly nine admirals' posts in the RN of the period, three (one of each rank) for each of the three fleets.

The problem wasn't that captains with insufficient seniority couldn't be admirals, it was that captains with sufficient seniority had to wait for an admiral to die -- thus the Commodore.

As to "Lieutenant", it essentially means "assistant". Plain-vanilla "Lieutenant" is, in effect (though never in actual words) "Lieutenant Captain". (A "captain" is the highest-ranking officer who knows all his men by name, a fairly low rank in the army, but a fairly high rank in the navy, where a ship also comes with the deal.) The ranks of "Commander" and "Lieutenant Commander", inserted between "Captain" and "Lieutenant", are fairly new inventions, splitting the old rank of "captain" in three in recognition of the fact that, since the early 19th century, the difference in size between large and small ships had gotten much bigger than it used to be.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[dwtno]

In the early 80's (c. 1983) the Navy briefly reinstated the rank of Commodore. It didn't last long. Anyone remember the details?

[Liberal]

But I believe [oh no, oh no...] that Cecil [oh mercy, oh heavens...] is, um, wrong [oh forgive me, oh please mighty Unca Cece...], or at least misses a greater point.

I believe my explanation is simpler for that specific question, which is readily apparent from this chart:
http://mav.net/wguynes/military/army_officers.html

I stand by what looks to me to be obvious: major, leutenant colonel, colonel — and — major general, leutenant general, general.

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"It is lucky for rulers that men do not think." — Adolf Hitler

[Salieri2]

Somewhat off-topic, sorry--I am under the impression that a captain, while aboard another captain's ship for a certain period of time [bumming a lift across the Atlantic, for instance] is bumped up to the rank of Commodore out of courtesy to the ship's captain. Can anyone back this up or squash it mercilessly? SD needed.
And what about those female generals? Tell me there are some. Bueller? Anyone?

[Elmer J. Fudd]

Aren't off-duty (or in-transit) officers aboard warships called "supercargo"?

If I was a ship's captain and my passanger of equal rank was temporarily promoted over me for the trip, I think I'd be pissed off. Doesn't sound courteous to me!

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Elmer J. Fudd,
Millionaire.
I own a mansion and a yacht.

[Lumpy]

Again, according to C.S. Forester:

Technically, a commodore was a sort of "super-captain" (while a commander was a sort of sub-captain (even though the RN had no subs)). One huge difference between a commodore and an admiral was that an admiral had the authority to supercede a post captain, while a commodore did not. A commodore was responsible for the overall mission objective, but the individual captains were still the masters of their ships. A commodore might offer suggestions as to what actions the captains might advisably take, but he couldn't flat out issue an order, not even to the captain of the commodore's flag ship.

[Little Nemo]

A couple more facts.

The rank of Commander originated for similar reasons as the rank of Commodore. Some ships were considered too small to justify the assignment of a Captain to their command. So a Lieutenant was appointed to the command and given the rank of Commander to indicate this. As others have noted the ranks of Commodore and Commander were both provisional and could be revoked with the assignment that justified them.

There was also (in the Royal Navy) a distinction between rank and assignment. There were usually more officers in a given rank then were necessary to fill the available assignments. For example, the Navy might have two thousand Captains and only eight hundred ships. This allowed the Navy to appoint the better officers to active commands and keep the worse ones on shore.

As JWK wrote there were exactly nine Admiral's posts in the Royal Navy of the Napoleonic era. There were three fleets (the Red, the White, and the Blue) each having three Admirals (an Admiral, a Vice Admiral, and a Rear Admiral). However, the Navy could promote other Captains to the rank of Admiral (based on their seniority) but not give them an actual command. These Admirals were said to be commanding the Yellow Fleet.

Little Nemo (aka Mike King)

[Rhythmdvl]

Bart: Milhouse...Milhouse, wake up, quick! Look out the window.
Milhouse: No way, Bart. If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded rear-admiral!

"Treehouse of Horror IV"

[mr john]

Well generally, for branch to branch equivelents and explanations of Major gen and commodore etc. http://www.friesian.com/rank.htm
The highest rank Washington ever had was General (4 stars). After the rank of General of the Army(5 star) was created in WWI ,he was promted posthumously so no one would outrank him..General of the Army was created for Pershing so he would not be outranked by the Field Marshalls of the larger European armies. Later when there were several Generals of the Army, Washington was promoted to honorary General of the ArmIES, got no Idea why Pershing got that postumously too. Now we gotta promote Washington to Topdog General of the Everthangs. The fact that these are postuumous explains why they didn't serve in those ranks g.General of the Army is the highest rank and only in wartime. There were a few in WWII. Again to rank with Field marshall,Eisenhaur,Macarthur,Bradley Omar Bradley is the last one we've had died in the 60's(?) others (Patton?)There were Fleet Admirals(5 star) in WWII Halsey,uh..some others.
How generals get promoted is a mystery to this day. The Prez has to promote them
Combat experience is generally required for promotion above 1 star, de facto. Which explains why there are few female generals in general.AS of 1990, the military was aprox. 11% female. 15% of them are officers, the same as male ratio. Of the 307 generals in the army (307!!!!!!!!!!) there were 3 F brigadier (1 star) generals, also 3 F rear admirals( one stripe,but same as 2 star,F have more 'combat' opportunities in Navy),2 1 stars in Air Force, and 1 marine brig. now retired.(think thats about as high as the marines go as they are part of the Navy,organised in smaller units than the army. General Motors outrnks General Foods but not when on Post,General Brands was demoted for rustling. Krisp, I generally don't care what Nick sez ,and, generally speaking, this is the best General Question I have ever seen in General Questions.Generally they are rather generic questions about right hand threads and how thick is an aluminum brick.

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"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."-Marx

[Little Nemo]

John Pershing (1860-1948) was not promoted to the rank of General of the Armies posthumously. He received it in 1919 and held the rank until he retired from active service in 1924.

As for George Washington, his promotion to that rank was very posthumous indeed. He died in 1799 but was not promoted to General of the Armies until October 19, 1976.

[Boris B]

Y'know what I think is a weird rank? The Sergeant Major of the Army. There is only one at any given time. He is the highest-ranking enlisted man in the Army, and he is outranked by every graduating West Point student in the country. Kind of gives the "pyramid" a new shape, doesn't it? But then I haven't figured out the point of the whole officer/enlisted man dichotomy anyway.
I mean, I know why there are ranks and a heirarchy, and I know why you might want to give people a head start of a couple ranks when they've been to ROTC or the Academy, but it still seems pretty extreme that a 20-year veteran with oodles of combat and leadership experience can never ever advance to equal a 22-year-old college grad. Without OCS, that is, which I think is a pretty small source for officers, and I think you still need a college degree for OCS, but I could be wrong.

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Any similarity in the above text to an English word or phrase is purely coincidental.

[Rodd Hill]

General of the Army Omar N. Bradley died April 8, 1981.

his grave: http://www.findagrave.com/pictures/125.html

I wrote to Bradley in about 1975, seeking an autograph, but got a note back from his ADC, regretting that the General was too ill to write. ADC had the wonderful name of Lewis S. Swineheart III.

[John Corrado]

Here's another General Question for you.

In 1863, Ulysess S. Grant was promoted to the 3-star rank and given command of all of the Union armies. From what I have read, this promotion was a major (no pun intended) step, for the only person who had held so high a rank previously was Washington himself. Winifried Scott had held the rank, but only as a brevet (temporary field promotion).

In every reference I have seen to Grant's new rank, it calls him a "Lieutenant General."

Now, as per Cecil, we know why a Lt. General outranks a Major General. But the explanation given indicates that a Lt. General was expected to be subordinate to someone else.

So why was Grant's rank called "Lt. General" instead of just "General", "Full General", or "General of the Armies"?

I have three theories:
1) American ranks followed European ranks in term; the Europeans equivalent of an American 3-Star general was called a "Lt. General", and so that's what the Americans called theirs.

2) The rank was called "Lt. General" to indicate subordinance to the Commander-In-Chief, i.e., President Lincoln.

3) The rank *was* called "General of the Armies" or some such, but because later a 4-Star rank was added, it was re-titled "Lt. General", and all of my history books backdated the title to apply to what Grant had.

Anyone know the real reason?

[Ursa Major]

Was Grant really promoted to command ALL Union armies? I thought he was just in command of the Grand Army of the Potomic. I don't think he gave orders to troops in far flung Santa Fe or Sacramento or even Sherman down in Georgia.

[hansel]

Boris B:

it still seems pretty extreme that a 20-year veteran with oodles of combat and leadership experience can never ever advance to equal a 22-year-old college grad.

While you're correct according to the org chart, God help the lieutenant who ignores the suggestion of a sergeant-major.

Every young lieutenant, the bars on his collar still shiny from the graduation ceremony, is told pretty explicitly to rely on his sergeant until he can find his ass with both hands. While the sergeant may not directly overrule the lieutenant (or the sergeant-major the captain or major), his experience and achievement in rank is still recognized by everyone, and if a young officer complained to a senior officer that his sergeant never agreed with him, he'd probably be told in no uncertain terms that the sergeant knows than he ever will, and that he'll never be promoted unless he learns to benefit from the voice of experience with which he's been blessed.

Now put the word 'fuck' in between every other word of what the senior officer would say, and you'll know how it's really put.

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Never attribute to an -ism anything more easily explained by common, human stupidity.

[John Corrado]

Ursa Major asked:

Was Grant really promoted to command ALL Union armies? I thought he was just in command of the Grand Army of the Potomic. I don't think he gave orders to troops in far flung Santa Fe or Sacramento or even Sherman down in Georgia.

In theory, Grant was in fact in charge of every Union army. Given the state of communications at that time, Grant rarely attempted to give specific orders to the army commanders, and instead gave them a great deal of leeway to pursue objectives as they saw fit. The exception to this was with the Army of the Potomac; Grant stated early on that his headquarters would be with the AoP, and while Meade was never removed as commander of the AoP, Grant acted as the defacto commander for most purposes (much to Meade's disgust and chagrin).

Civil War buff? Me? Never.

[mr john]

Mr Corrado, from the context I judge you are speaking of the War of Northern Aggresion? Meade was no great shakes anyway,I think Grant did him a favor. If you take a look at the chart you'll see that the ranks are generally associated with the size of the unit commanded,not so much as being subordinate to another. A Lt.Gen. commands an Army or a Corps. So your postulate 1 is correct,in general. There is also an explanation of the word Lt.as a word in general and in "General".Grant did get 4 stars too. He was the 2nd full General.
There is a commisioned rank below LT.; Warrant Officer. Aren't very many of them left. Some nco's who had a LOT of experienceand a bit too much book smarts too be nco's but not enough education to advance. also fliers in WWII who left the service and and came back ( USA for some rason only let officers actually do the flying, a guy could be a cracker jack pilot but not otherwise officer material but he was an officer cause he flew)Chief warrant was as high as they usually got,and none that I know had any interest in being LT.It was actually a step down in their eyes.

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"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."-Marx

[torq]

Heinlein, in _Starship Troopers_ (the book, not the movie, which was so very, very different it was difficult for me to recognize it), alludes to the custom of "only one Captain on the ship." Not exactly the most authoritative source, no, but with his background it's worth considering.

Howeer, he doesn't say it was an actual _promotion_, just that everyone aboard the ship would use the title "Commodore" when referring to any people aboard with the actual rank of Captain other than the one in charge of the ship.

[John W. Kennedy]

Warrant Officers aren't exactly "officers below lieutenant"; they're on a different ladder. The historic foundation is, indeed, the need to promote various technical specialists above Sergeant/CPO when they really shouldn't be Commissioned Officers because "they just aren't -- you know -- our kind".

The popularity of W.O.'s comes and goes.

There are, at present, four W.O. ranks in the U.S. The lowest is simply called "Warrant Officer". The next three are all called "Chief Warrant Officer", but the pay goes up as they progress from W-2 to W-4. A W-4 gets the same pay as a Major/Lt. Cdr.

"Michael Garibaldi" on Babylon 5 is a C.W.O., and a good example of the type, an ex-cop recruited to run security on a military base.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[Irishman]

Libertarian said:

I believe my explanation is simpler for that specific question, which is readily apparent from this chart:
http://mav.net/wguynes/military/army_officers.html

I stand by what looks to me to be obvious: major, leutenant colonel, colonel — and — major general, leutenant general, general.


I believe the essence of what was said in the other posts agrees. Majors were Sargeant-Majors assigned to assist the command officers. Lieutenants were the same - assistants to the command officers.

That makes a Captain with a Lieutenant (Captain) and a Seargeant Major, a Colonel with a Lieutenant Colonel and a (Seargeant) Major, and a General with a Lieutenant General and a (Sargeant) Major General. Thus, Lieutenants outrank their respective Majors.

[Diceman]

Alright, this thread has done a kick-ass job with the various types of Majors, but was there ever a Minor? This is a question I've wondered about for quite some time. I seem to remember the rank of "minor" in Statego or some similar game. (It was one of those capture-the-flag board games). Anyone out there know know the straight dope?

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"I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms." -The Secret of Monkey Island

[doc_miller]

Mr John wrote:

There is a commisioned rank below LT.; Warrant Officer.

2nd Lt (Ensign) are the lowest commisioned ranks. WO are called that because they receive warrants rather than commisions; to the best of my knowledge they outrank all NCO's, but are below all the LT's. They are used in the Army mainly for helicopter pilots, and used fairly extensively in the Coast Guard.

Commodores in the modern USN are sort of a crisis rank. They are broken out when the Navy feels more flag officers are needed (like WWII) but doesn't want to create a huge crop of admirals. After the crisis is over, Commodores either retire at that rank or are gradully promoted to Rear Admiral, and Captains skip Commodore to become RA's, when openings occur.

The most common use of courtesy promotions is with Marine Captains on Naval ships; they are referred to as Major to avoid confusion with the ships Captain. Other Naval Captains serving on the ship are generally referred by job title, such as CAG (Commander Air Group). I don't know what would be done if another captain were a guest on the ship. My WAG is that he would be referred to as Commander, so that there is no confusion about who is the ranking officer on the ship.

Scott

[Kat]

I believe the game piece you are think of (at least if is the one from Stratego) is the "Miner", who was able to disarm the bombs.

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Your Official Cat Goddess since 10/20/99.

"I get along well with everybody." --I.M.F.

[Jois]

Hansel, your post (...God help the lieutenant who ignores the suggestion of a sergeant -major...) was so picture perfect it made me laugh.