Pornographic Rap Music and its Effect on Youth and Adults

[Wildest Bill]

What is the reason for such music as 2 Live Crew's "Doing it in the Butt" and so on? Is such music even though protected by the first ammendment good for the country? I don't think our forefathers ever thought people would be using lyrics such as these back then or they would have rethought the free speech thing.

So what does the effect of this music have on people? I wonder if it promotes promiscuous sex that causes so many problems on todays society. I mean if you would have went to a 2 live crew concert and heard the lyrics and watched them have sex on stage, it would probably make you a little horny when you left. Is that their goal(other than shocking and making money)? Are nasty songs hurting the black, hispanic and white culture in general? With so much sex, unwanted children will occur resulting in fatherless, abused and neglected offspring or worse yet more abortions.

What do y'all think about it? I know free speech is important but do you think nasty stuff like that was what are forefathers wanted to protect? Do you think such lyrics really do effect peoples libido? I mean if they didn't, why does the govt put warning lables on the albums?

[Liberal]

Lolo, meet Wildest Bill. You two enjoy yourselves now. :D

[Wildest Bill]

Libertarian,

Who's LoLo?

[gobear]

2 Live Crew?? Are you posting from a time warp in 1989? Why don't you talk about real nasty music from 2001, like Li'l Kim?


So what does the effect of this music have on people? I wonder if it promotes promiscuous sex that causes so many problems on todays society.

Dude, rap music only goes back to the early 1970s (if you count The Last Poets as the progenitors of rap) and only became popular in the early 1980s with Kurtis Blow, Sugar Hill, and Grandmaster Flash. I assure you, people were having sex before then.

Do you think such lyrics really do effect peoples libido? I mean if they didn't, why does the govt put warning lables on the albums

The government doesn't put warning labels on CDs (albums? what year are you posting from again?). Record companies do so as a result from pressure from the PMRC. (Thanks, Tipper :rolleyes: )

[BF]

WB, IIRC, record companies do put warning labels on albums, cds, etc. It is a voluntary action. But come on, WB, 2 Live's album was stooopid funny, IMHO. (plus it's what, like 15 years old now)

[Gundy]

Originally posted by Wildest Bill
What do y'all think about it? I know free speech is important but do you think nasty stuff like that was what are forefathers wanted to protect? Do you think such lyrics really do effect peoples libido? I mean if they didn't, why does the govt put warning lables on the albums?

First, if we pick and choose the speech we protect based on what we think the forefathers "wanted to protect" - it's not really free speech, is it? The speech that makes us uncomfortable is the speech that needs protection, in my opinion.

Second, I seriously doubt that 2 Live Crew's admittedly raunchy and misogynistic views on sex are causing pregnancy and abortion. But it's a chicken-and-egg thing - is art reflecting life, or life reflecting art? In this case, I'd say 2 Live Crew and their like are oversexed adolescents who make money pandering to other oversexed adolescents. I don't think they're selling to people who don't think they way they do in the first place.

Third, it's not just rap. Heavy metal has its share of skirt-chasing, hee-hee-look-a-boobie lyrics, too.

And fourth, "Pop That Coochie" is always good for a laugh. Anyone remember "Gangsta Bitch" Barbie on SNL? On the package was a splash containing the words, "Pops That Coochie!" Oh man, that kills me.

[TwistofFate]

Bill, Strauss's waltzes were branded as the Devil's music, and the dancing would encourage wanton abandonment of values.

As Did Jazz.

And Rock and Roll.

And Metal.

And Rap.


Same verse, different tune.

[Wildest Bill]

Ok I know it is old but I just saw a best of Saturday Night Live with Cris Rock and he was making fun of 2livecrew. I almost got the point that he even thought the lyrics were just plain out rude and riduculously nasty. So that is the reason for using 2livecrew. I really don't know any other nasty rap artist. It ain't my thing.

I guess I was wrong about the govt mandate on warning lables. But has there ever been a study done on the affect of nasty music and young people being more promiscuous?

[SuaSponte]

Originally posted by Wildest Bill
What is the reason for such music as 2 Live Crew's "Doing it in the Butt" and so on? Is such music even though protected by the first ammendment good for the country? I don't think our forefathers ever thought people would be using lyrics such as these back then or they would have rethought the free speech thing.
Hey, Bill, how's it going? Awright, first things first - of course our forefathers thought people would be using lyrics such as 2LiveCrew's (now there's a blast from the past). Simply put, such lyrics and worse were already part of the culture in colonial times. Ever hear a good old-fashioned sea shanty? Ever read Canterbury Tales? Ribald and pornographic songs and verse have been part of our culture ever since the first cave man make a circle with one hand and stuck a finger from his other hand through it.
And our Founding Fathers, well aware of such "poetry", did not make an exception in the First Amendment to exclude such things from protection.

So what does the effect of this music have on people? I wonder if it promotes promiscuous sex that causes so many problems on todays society. I mean if you would have went to a 2 live crew concert and heard the lyrics and watched them have sex on stage, it would probably make you a little horny when you left. Is that their goal(other than shocking and making money)?
Again, first things first. 2LiveCrew never had sex on stage. Second, I will have to challenge you on the causation between music and promiscuous sex. Sexual promiscuity was rampant, perhaps more so than now, in the 70s, when music was nowhere near as graphic as it is now.
Overall, I am quite certain that some people are adversely affected by sex and violence portrayed in music and other forms of entertainment (you may take away my liberal card now. :D) However, there are two reasons why such portrayals should not be banned.
First, banning a spread of certain information and imagery through particular means is ineffective. The information and imagery still exists. Heck, I learned more about sex on the playground of my Catholic grade school than I ever did from Penthouse Letters.
Second, whatever people who are adversely affected, they are by no means the majority. Why should the problems of the few outweigh the rights of the many?

Sua

[andros]

<townshend>
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss . . .
</townshend>

Which was just a violent, drug-addled, licentious rock&roll way of saying "there is nothing new under the sun."

[Liberal]

Originally posted by Wildest Bill
Libertarian,

Who's LoLo?

I don't think I would be allowed, in this forum, to describe him to you. But I have a feeling you'll be finding out soon enough. You two have, let us say, similar approaches to intellectual inquiry.

[Biggirl]

Weelllll. Since the highest teen pregnancy rate was in the '50's, perhaps we can suggest that early Rock-n-Roll or maybe late Big Band music had the greater effect on young libidos.


I gotta ask: Does 2LiveCrew make you horny Bill?

[Revtim]

What little I listened to of 2 Live Crew seemed to be just filthy comedy not to be taken seriously, like some of the riper stand-up comedians (but generally not as clever). Sort of like Andrew Dice Clay set to rap.

[Guinastasia]

Originally posted by Biggirl
late Big Band music had the greater effect on young libidos.


I gotta ask: Does 2LiveCrew make you horny Bill?

Well, I know Glenn Miller makes ME horny....WHAT? Why are you looking at me like that

Seriously, Bill, have you ever seen the History Channel's series on Sex in History?

[Wildest Bill]

Originally posted by Biggirl
Weelllll. Since the highest teen pregnancy rate was in the '50's, perhaps we can suggest that early Rock-n-Roll or maybe late Big Band music had the greater effect on young libidos.

This is a curious point. I believe this was the case because of less protection than today not necessarily more sex.


I gotta ask: Does 2LiveCrew make you horny [b]Bill?

Like I said I really don't listen to them. But if I kept hearing some of the lyrics like I heard on that SNL special, yea I think sex would definetely cross my mind. Heck, afterall, I am dude.

Sua,

How the heck you been dude. Let me thing on your post and I will respond. The first thing that comes to mind about the rights of others. If this type of music, does cause more social problems isn't that effecting the rights of others in a negative way?

Andros,

I LOVE that song. It rocks but it doesn't make want to go get nasty with some chick. It justs makes think that politics is a hard thing to make better. Which is true.

[Guinastasia]

Since I know Bill's feelings on this-
What do you think the FF would say about the NRA and all the school shootings? Surely they didn't want the 2nd Ammendment to justify every loonatic getting a gun on demand?

[Wildest Bill]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Since I know Bill's feelings on this-
What do you think the FF would say about the NRA and all the school shootings? Surely they didn't want the 2nd Ammendment to justify every loonatic getting a gun on demand?

If in fact every American teacher did carry guns, the crazy kids with bad motives would be cut down pretty quickly now wouldn't they?

[Biggirl]

Sooooo. It would be better for teachers to shoot bad students than for the students to be having sex.


Music is the beat to which we live our lives. It does not dictate how we live. If a teenager has sex it will be to the beat of the music s/he likes. Music does not make you have sex any more than oysters do.

[wring]

I Do believe that in this OP, Bill has managed to jerk his knees on enough topics (free speech, racial issues, teen pregnancy, founding fathers, pornography) and with such oversimplifications and generalizations that he has actually achieved critical mass. Let's all give him a hand ::standing ovation::

Ok, seems to me I recall your young ones are preteen or young teens. let me clue you in. I recall my folks thinking I was gonna end up pregnant & in hell for listening to Joan Baez (well maybe, but not for the reasons they thought). You really have to learn to allow other folks to have different taste than you in everything - sex, entertainment, religion, etc.

For example, you apparently find the idea of anal sex repulsive. Others disagree. You hate rap music, others don't. I don't personally like cola's, chocolate or toast, but I'm not wanting to ban them from the restaurants, ya hear me??

I can appreciate (and am anticipating your concern - the young males that are around your daughters, what if they listen to that rude ass stuff?) the issue. As a parent of a now 17 year old, what I chose to do about his musical taste is : let him have it, keeping it above ground. When he was 13/14/15, his tastes ran to some pretty awful stuff (and if you think 2LiveCrew is nasty, you haven't checked out the CD covers on Canibal Corpse). I didn't censor his music, and guess what - in a fairly short amount of time, he got over it. Don't sweat the small stuff ya know?

(and aside to Sua you obviously aren't reading my Penthouse letters :D )

[TwistofFate]

Originally posted by BasicGuy
I dislike rap music on several levels and have taken pause to reflect on the reactions of previous adults when Rock and Roll first came out, like where some radio stations refused to play it and one guy (on film and shown in documentaries) called it 'nigger bop' and smashed a record.

Let me start my refutation by clarifying a small issue for you. What you seem to be referring to as rap is a subgenre, albeit a popular one. Not all Rap is bitches and blunts, after all. For example, there are groups such as Us3, De la Soul, Arrested Development, Public Enemy that talk more about the issues (or what they percieve to be the issues) that affect people.

When you mention Radio, always remember the word "Commercial". The Radio will play whatever will make money for the station. Rap got started on Underground, College, and Community stations.
people have been outraged by new forms of music all the time, as mentioned in above posts.


But, Rock and Roll was never as obviously nasty, discriminatory, racist or sexist as Rap is.

True, but it was rather dangerous and edgy for a commercial form of music in its time, right?


First, the rappers give off an image that it is cool to be ghetto tough, when it is not because ghetto life is rife with drugs, gangs, hostilities not only towards other races but to ones own, murder, rape and various criminal activities. People in ghettos prey on each other and having served time in jail or having been knifed or shot are status symbols.

perhaps all the hardships of Ghetto life are what prompts Rappers to write, and speak about. But I would guarentee that the majority of the people who are claiming that lifestyle have either a) never actually experienced it or b) are exaggerating it.
Rebelling sells.

In the past, Rock and Roll sent out messages of similar type about being rebels, going against the law, making love, and coming from the 'wrong side of the tracks' but the lyrics were nowhere as blatantly descriptive, hostile nor simply nasty. Mostly, they were not racist. Nor did they promote the killing of anyone for racial reasons.

Agreed. But you are painting an entire form of music with a very large brush.

As I said above, Rebellion and non conformity sells.

Radio stations practiced censorship and later hard rock songs were not played if they had vulgar terms in them.

More to please sponsors than to protect the public.


Most such songs came in two types: one copy uncut for the public, and one copy censored for the radio stations.


Why do you think that is? because people who listen to a song want to hear how the artist expresses themselves.


Somewhere in time, this stopped and free speech became the ability to promote anything in song that the so called artist, in his or her warped mind, chose to sing.


And Jerry Falwell has been using that constitutional right to blame sept 11 on anyone civil liberty groups. You dont have to be a musician to have a "Warped Mind" :rolleyes


Rap, in my opinion, has caused crime, racial problems and promotes a hostile, closed minded attitude. Not too long back, the rapper who started it all, and I forgot his name, was in court defending the right to say anything nasty on recordings under the guise of artistic song as a government panel debated slapping restrictions on Rap.


Is he forcing anyone to listen to his music? then he can say anything he wants to say. I retain the right not to buy it. The off button is a wonderous invention.

His feelings were/are that one can say anything one wants under free speech no matter the consequences because it is his right and it is art, no matter who actually takes the songs to heart and commits unsociable activities or racial actions.


thats great. Can I blame Rap for the fact I didnt get laid until I was 16?
Of course not. Unless mentally stable, a person is responsible for his or her own actions. It is not musics responsibility to teach right from wrong.


We already know, from teens in the early rock and roll era and later, in the heavy metal and hard rock of the late 60s, early 70s and later, the 80s, that teens and others take the songs to heart, try to imitate them, will follow their suggestions, use the singers and bands as role models, will copy the dress, actions and stage attitudes of their favorite bands and change their lifestyles accordingly.

Art immitating life or life immitating art?


We have records of problems caused by the past heavy metal groups singing about Satan and devil worship,


Natural Selection in action.


the joys of drugs, especially pot and later, coke, and the pleasure of getting drunk and cutting loose.
[quote]
And wherein lies the problem? If someone wants to take drugs, they'll take drugs. The musicians didnt sell them the drugs (excepting Rick James and that guy from The Village people, of course ;))

[quote]
Rap is worse than any Rock and Roll songs of the past, for it promotes rape, hatred of various races, hatred of authority, loyalty to gang members beyond the loyalty of family, the joys of getting shot, stabbed or beaten up for a gang and the killing of innocents to prove one is tough.

My National Anthem talks about killing Saxon foes, Denmarks talks about killing the rest of Scandanavia. do you propose we stop playing those? And the theme from M.A.S.H is called "Suicide is Painless".



It promotes the abuse of women, antisocial behavior and being loyal only to oneself. It lauds the pleasure of doing and selling drugs and getting kids hooked on them so that one can make lots of money and spend it on luxuries. It raises murderers of drug dealers to high social status and promotes living a life of violent crime and preying on ones own race as something to be desired.

Be careful with that Ax, Eugene.

In short, it is abusing the right of free speech so that the Rappers can make lots of cash and not have to take the responsibility of the affects their lyrics have on the population. They should be censored as promoting and encouraging social unrest and racial hatred.

Guess what? Religion has been doing that for centuries.

[gex gex]

all quotes originally posted by basicguy
First, the rappers give off an image that it is cool to be ghetto tough, when it is not because ghetto life is rife with drugs, gangs, hostilities not only towards other races but to ones own, murder, rape and various criminal activities. People in ghettos prey on each other and having served time in jail or having been knifed or shot are status symbols.


no they do not: try listening to some black eyed peas, beastie boys, ugly duckling, michael franti/disposable heroes of hiphoprisy, jurassic five, de la soul etc. etc. then try and tell me that rap as a genre is as you have described.


In the past, Rock and Roll sent out messages of similar type about being rebels, going against the law, making love, and coming from the 'wrong side of the tracks' but the lyrics were nowhere as blatantly descriptive, hostile nor simply nasty. Mostly, they were not racist. Nor did they promote the killing of anyone for racial reasons.


society's moral standards have changed. in the 50's premarital sex was a big no-no. attitudes change. these were just as 'dangerous' in their time as rap is 'dangerous' now.


Somewhere in time, this stopped and free speech became the ability to promote anything in song that the so called artist, in his or her warped mind, chose to sing. Rap, in my opinion, has caused crime, racial problems and promotes a hostile, closed minded attitude.


you are absolutely right. there was no crime, racial problems or people with hostile, closed minded attitudes in poverty-stricken black underclass societies before rap. you've nailed the problem. i bet those afghanistanis have been listning to too much eminem, too.


We already know, from teens in the early rock and roll era and later, in the heavy metal and hard rock of the late 60s, early 70s and later, the 80s, that teens and others take the songs to heart, try to imitate them, will follow their suggestions, use the singers and bands as role models, will copy the dress, actions and stage attitudes of their favorite bands and change their lifestyles accordingly. We have records of problems caused by the past heavy metal groups singing about Satan and devil worship, the joys of drugs, especially pot and later, coke, and the pleasure of getting drunk and cutting loose.


cite, please


Rap is worse than any Rock and Roll songs of the past... hatred of various races...


just like (rock band) guns n roses' one in a million?


...hatred of authority...


like (rock band) the clash's white riot?


...loyalty to gang members beyond the loyalty of family...


i could go on, but your arguments are based on hyperbole and paranoia and are essentially meaningless.

for more information on overeaction to any music, and why outrage at rap is the same as outrage at rock, look here (http://ericnuzum.com/banned/). knock yourselves out.

oh and wildest bill, i'm sure rap music promotes sex amongst teenagers, just like elvis presley's dancing promoted sex amongst teenagers. that's right.

[ninja_rydr]

We have records of problems caused by the past heavy metal groups singing about Satan and devil worship .

Could you cite something other than the stupid Judas Preist / Suicide trial.


Rap, in my opinion, has caused crime, racial problems and promotes a hostile, closed minded attitude.

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it is the other way around? Maybe crime/racism/social/economic problems caused Rap music to be a success.


His feelings were/are that one can say anything one wants under free speech no matter the consequences because it is his right and it is art, no matter who actually takes the songs to heart and commits unsociable activities or racial actions.

As most people know you can NOT always say anything you want, you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre, incite a riot, or as some "artist" thought skin a live cat on video tape. But what it seems you are saying is that if someone (gang member or not) listens to rap music then commits a murder the artist should be punished. That is akin to saying Shell & Bic should be fined because some criminal uses their products to set a fire. BTW law suits,filed by cities, across the country have failed to recover costs of gun violence from the gun manufacturers.

[capacitor]

If rap is causing crime, then why there is a dramatic drop in crime over the years, during the time rap has become the premiere genre in popular music?

[Wildest Bill]

Where in the thread is this Basic Guy's post y'all keep quoting from? I don't see it.

[pldennison]

I suspect it's gone because I suspect he was Mark Serlin. At least he was clever enough not to capitalize "black" this time.

[Guinastasia]

Serlin's back? ARGH!

Anyhoo, I was reading the New Republic where there is a review of a Tupac Shakur biography. It addresses some of the problems of rap and stereotypes.

BTW, I miss Arrested Development. BEST rap group I ever heard-and this coming from someone who hates rap.

[ninja_rydr]

I am not a huge fan of 2 live crew. However to condem a whole genre of music because you don't like one group or song is absurd. As was said above there are several sun-genres of rap i.e. Gangsta / East Coast and latley Southern. So Bill & Guy you two don't like that hardcore stuff. Try something else like Mos Def, The Roots, Pharcyde (older). I never used to listen to country music, until I started to give it an honest shot. While I don't run around in boots or cowboy hat I've found I like enough of it to burn a couple of CD with country songs. You just may find it's not all bad.

[Guinastasia]

Hey, I'm not saying I don't like rap because of one or two groups-I just don't like the music or the format. But then, some people can't stand classical or folk or big band swing-which I ADORE. Different strokes for different folks, I says.
;)

[Freudian Slit]

I don't see the BasicGuy ones either...who's Mark Serlin? A sock puppet?

[Wildest Bill]

Hey I am not saying I hate all rap or anything. There is some rap that sounds pretty good. I like Cypress Hill, Tone Loc and the Beastie Boys. While some of their songs might be suggestive(sp), they don't come out and say "do it in the butt" if you know what I mean?

[stofsky]

Bill, you've heard of the Beatles, right? Oldish rock & roll that doesn't incite anyone to anything?





You've heard of Charles Manson, right?




Look up the connection between the Helter Skelter murders and the White Album. Next time try not to be such a ....aww, hell, it's worthless even to complete the sentence.

[VarlosZ]

Do you think such lyrics really do effect peoples libido?
No, you're thinking of PORN.

As something of an aside, rap lyrics have always been taken (by white people, anyway) with a degree of literalness that would be unthinkable for rock. Does anyone think that Jim Morrison was actually suggesting that we go rape our mothers in "The End"? Of course not. So why do we take it at face value when MC Ren (N.W.A., "Fuck the Police") says that "taking out a police would make [his] day"?

Finally, 2Live Crew's "Pop That Pussy" is, to my thinking, the definitive work dealing with a trip to a gentleman's club.

"I like the way you lick that champaigne glass / It makes me want to stick my. . ."

I've got to listen to that now. Pardon me.

[Guinastasia]

Bill, if your idea of pornographic is "doing it in the butt," don't EVER listen to Ghetto Boys. *shudder*

[vanilla]

I can't imagine anyone watching 2 Live Crew having sex would make them horny.
I must be a singular voice of agreement with you Wildest.
The world would be a better place without obscene language promoted.

[DocCathode]

He was a notorious womaniser. While I can't be sure of our other founding fathers, I know Ben wanted to ensure any man's right to say "Shake your rump like a rumpshaker." and any woman's right to do so.

Chaucer's Canetrbury Tales do contain verses ranging from suggestive to explicit. In the Reeve's tale, a youth boasts about having sex with a miller's daughter, "All night long did she grind my corn.". Chaucer remains the only author I know of to refer to the female genitalia as "nether eye". The full line "And he had kissed her nether eye."

Many of Shakespeare's works contain dirty jokes-

In Henry V, The Dauphin says "My horse is my mistress."

Hamlet "Lady shall I lie in thy lap? No, I meant my head in thy lap. Thought you I meant country matters?"
Country matters? Doesn't make much sense, "cunt-ry" ,matters is the original meaning. According to Professor Mistichelli of the Penn State English Department, the word "cunt" was known and used during Shakespeare's time.

Bill-pornography and sexually charged songs date back to the origin of writing, art, and singing. We may have gone from a Greek theatre, to a pub, to a burlesque house, to cd's but "The song remains the same."

[dalovindj]

gex gex:

no they do not: try listening to some black eyed peas, beastie boys, ugly duckling, michael franti/disposable heroes of hiphoprisy, jurassic five, de la soul etc. etc. then try and tell me that rap as a genre is as you have described.

Nice list of concious/non-violent hip-hop artists. I've not run into anybody who knows about Ugly Duckling except on the LBDAS web sites. Wasn't expecting to run into someone who digs them here. Daddy likes.

WB:

Hip-Hop is NOT the cause of the worlds evils. It DOES often describe the fucked up things that go on in the world. But people have been doing it in the butt, killing each other, and getting high since way before stereos existed.

Artistic expression should never be censored unless it brings physical harm to someone. The problem with wanting to rule out certain speech is picking who gets to be the judge. If it's me, I'm a rule out the religious texts of the world, no more "Friends", and Rod Stewart would be against the law. Alot of people would have a problem with these decisions. I would have a big problem if someone tried to tell me not to listen to Biggie.

If you don't like it fine. But it's not the root of evil, it's commentary on having to live in world where evil does exist. 2 Live Crew's "The Pussy Caper" is a great tale of a prostitute fooled and an extra John satisfied. It makes me laugh. Laughing feels good. If I can feel good without hurting anybody, then it's nobody's buisiness and that's why this country is great.

DaLovin' Dj

[Esprix]

And what, exactly, would be the problem with "doing it in the butt?" :confused:

Bill, I'm no fan of rap/hip-hop by any stretch of the imagination, but to answer your OP: No.

Esprix

[yojimbo]

Originally posted by Zoggie
I don't see the BasicGuy ones either...who's Mark Serlin? A sock puppet?

Check this out. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=44858