Is HALLOWEEN a SATANIC Holiday??

[buddy1]

I ask this because I have some relatives who are members of a fundamantalist church. Every October, they start in on the shit about Halloween being a satanic celebration. They don't let their kids go out trick or treating, and generally make life miserable for everybody. I have tried to explain to them, that Halloween is just a custom from the celtic countries, and is actually a harvest/new year festival. In any case, why are the fundies so opposed to kids and grownups having a little fun on Oct. 31? I really enjoy costume parties, and I like giving candies to the kids-who are these killjoys mad about anyway?

[Space Otter]

Halloween is a pagan holiday, having roots in european pre-christian harvest celebrations, if this qualifies as "satanic" so be it. But so are Christmas and Easter. Christianity just appropriated various dates and celebrations. It's probably not worth arguing with dimwits like these. The revenge will come when their children freak out from a lifetime of oppression.

[Trucido]

The modern conception of Halloween has little to do with anything except an opportunity for both children and adults to enjoy themselves and indulge in sweets. It lacks any religious significance whatsoever, having lost the original, pre-Christian conception. It could never have been called Satanic, though, as its origins pre-dated the Christian conception of Satan. It also is conspicuously lacking in anything more evil than pranks and stress on dentists. It also caters to a human desire to be frightened every so often, yet still safe.

Fundamentalists are opposed to the festival for their own reasons, independent of any meaning that Halloween has now or ever had. I think H.L. Mencken put it best: "There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of puritanism, and that is to punish the man with the superior capacity for happiness."

[Sofa King]

Is HALLOWEEN a SATANIC Holiday??

Fuck yeah, dude! \\m//

[techchick68]

Here's a site that may have a truthful explanation. If you are at work, turn down your sound, it's got the music from "A Nightmare Before Christmas"

http://wilstar.com/holidays/hallown.htm


The word itself, "Halloween," actually has its origins in the Catholic Church. It comes from a contracted corruption of All Hallows Eve. November 1, "All Hollows Day" (or "All Saints Day"), is a Catholic day of observance in honor of saints. But, in the 5th century BC, in Celtic Ireland, summer officially ended on October 31. The holiday was called Samhain (sow-en), the Celtic New year.

[fixed coding]

[Edited by bibliophage on 10-18-2001 at 04:56 AM]

[Sofa King]

Oh, no! I thought I was in the Pit. Please excuse the above irresponsible outburst until someone can clean up after me. My apologies.

[Daowajan]

The holiday that's given Halloween the "satanic" image is Walpurgis Night, a German superstition that witches gather in the Hartz Mountain Range every year in (May 24? April 24?)

But that's got nothing to do with pagan religion or devil worship. It's Christian myth.

[Space Otter]

Sofa King, I almost spit coke on the monitor laughing when I read your post.

[The Stafford Cripps]

Interestingly, the Puritans and Calvinists that were in power in Britain during the 16th and 17th centuries seem to have agreed with these fundamentalists. Christmas was more or less banned in Scotland (that's why Scots have such a big celebration at Hogmannay / New Year), and I think that the bonfire festival was moved from Hallowe'en to Guy Fawkes Night (Nov 5) to remove its pagan connotations. By the by, did Americans celebrate Guy Fawkes Night before independence?

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by Daowajan
The holiday that's given Halloween the "satanic" image is Walpurgis Night... (May 24? April 24?)

May Day Eve.

Walpurgis night, like Halloween, is an eve and may owe some of its associations to the way days were counted by the Celts and the early Christians.

(I don't have the ref. material with me, but...) IIRC, the Celts counted days from sundown to sundown (similar to Jewish practice). The early Christians counted (I think) dawn to dawn (midnight being a later change). When the Christians overlaid their festivals on the older pagan ones (such as Samhain), this left a 12-odd hour window for the old festival.

November 1 may be All Hallow's Day, but the night before is still Samhain.

[Derleth]

History Channel on the Origins of Halloween (http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/halloween/hallowmas.html)

Now let's have no more of this rampant specter-lation... :D

[Dale The Bold]

As a Christian, I am well-versed in the traditions of anti-Halloween propaganda. As posted above, it is a pagan holiday and that alone makes it synonymous with satanism in many Christian's eyes (as everything that is "worldly" is ultimately of the devil). However, there is a distinction to be made since true satanists probably don't think of the holiday any differently than you or I.

[Khampelf]

I think the question comes from misunderstanding 'Satanism'. Most of what people think of when the topic comes up is a fetish for Heavy Metal music, pet mutilations, etc. Which has as much to do with Satanism as eating jewish babies has to do with Christianity, ie, bad press. It has to do with a philosophy of non-supression of the self. Satan's defiant 'Non Serviam', I will not serve. True, it makes the Satanists I know seem Arrogant A**holes, but it's core is self reliance, Not needing a society, God, or his representatives dictate one's thoughts or behaviour. Contrary to popular belief, they don't 'Worship' Satan, they would consider that silly, the whole thing is a metaphor for rejecting group-think, and the power of other's opinions.

SAtanists throw the best Haloween parties.

[Road Rash]

Another good thread:
http://www.neopagan.net/Halloween.HTML

Actually, Halloween as we know it comes from the good old U.S.A. Modern European celebrations emulate what Americans have been doing for quite awhile. Dressing up in costumes, going trick-or-treat, haunted houses and stuff.

I have heard that its roots are primarily celtic. Which makes sense considering the Irish immigration. But most cultures have a version of the harvest/pre-winter festival. And the north is commonly seen as mysterious.

Satanic? Nore more than rock-and-roll.

[The Stafford Cripps]

Originally posted by Road Rash
Another good thread:
http://www.neopagan.net/Halloween.HTML

Actually, Halloween as we know it comes from the good old U.S.A. Modern European celebrations emulate what Americans have been doing for quite awhile. Dressing up in costumes, going trick-or-treat, haunted houses and stuff.

I have heard that its roots are primarily celtic. Which makes sense considering the Irish immigration.


I disagree; the Hallowe'en you describe is pretty similar to what we've always done in Scotland (a country that is both Celtic in part and modern European!). We call going round houses in costumes "guising"). Some people in England think Hallowe'en there is an American import, but that's only partly true.

[flodnak]

Originally posted by G. Odoreida
I disagree; the Hallowe'en you describe is pretty similar to what we've always done in Scotland (a country that is both Celtic in part and modern European!). We call going round houses in costumes "guising").
It strikes this American as strange, actually, that now that Halloween is making itself known here in the land of Norge, it is doing so in its American version and not in a British/Irish version. When I questioned fella bilong missus flodnak, he said that most Norwegians are familiar with Halloween from "Peanuts" comic strips and thus assume that it's an American holiday.

[Steve Wright]

Hmph.

When I were a lad (in England), Halloween was an excuse to roast chestnuts, play silly games like ducking for apples, and tell ghost stories. All this trick-or-treat stuff is new-fangled nonsense, and nowt good'll come of it, I tell 'ee...

Excuse me a moment.

[/exaggerated English regional accent]

Oh, that's better. By the way... [off-topic] Odoreida? Do I detect a Stephen Potter fan here?[/off-topic]

[APB]

As was discussed in another thread several weeks ago, the whole Samhain/Celtic New Year theory has come under heavy attack from academic historians.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=86383

This revisionist interpretation undercuts the entire fundamentalist argument - its origins were neither pagan nor satanic.

Originally posted by G. Odoreida
I disagree; the Hallowe'en you describe is pretty similar to what we've always done in Scotland (a country that is both Celtic in part and modern European!). We call going round houses in costumes "guising"). Some people in England think Hallowe'en there is an American import, but that's only partly true.

Sorry to say this, but I have an awful feeling that the Scottish Halloween traditions are just as much an American import and, worse, an American import via England. Is there any evidence that they pre-date the nineteenth century or even the twentieth century?

[walor]

You may find this site (http://www.saltbox.org.uk/) of interest.

Here in the UK, Halloween 'celebrations' have been low key affairs over my lifetime. It tended to be a non-event. They seemed to become much more popular after the ET movie. Now they are 'big' and getting 'bigger'.

However, some youngsters have seen them as an opportunity to 'extort' cash from the elderly or weak, or to use generally threatening behaviour. Satanic... who knows? Scary for the elderly... definately!

[vanilla]

All my christian comrades think so.
no one I know (from church) sends their kids out on halloween.
They have harvest parties.
They think its evil.
I am the only christian I know IRL who takes her son out for it.
To him, it is "dress up and get candy day".
I agree. I've always loved it. (its tough being a liberal christian)

[The Stafford Cripps]

Sorry to say this, but I have an awful feeling that the Scottish Halloween traditions are just as much an American import and, worse, an American import via England. Is there any evidence that they pre-date the nineteenth century or even the twentieth century? [/B]

I've no idea, but to speculate wildly, America to England to Scotland seems a bit unlikely, especially if Hallowe'en has been celebrated in Scotland since before WWI (I'm pretty sure it has been, from family experience). I know a lot of Christmas traditions came that way but there were good commercial reasons for that; Hallowe'en hasn't been very commercial in Scotland until recently.

We have an old tradition of going round houses that is not shared by England. It's got a different name from trick or treating ("guising") and has a slightly different form; you're supposed to sing a song or tell a story to get your sweets. I may be completely wrong but these would have to be explained.

If there is a common link between various countries' traditions I'd have thought Ireland was a more likely origin.

[The Stafford Cripps]

Originally posted by Steve Wright
Hmph.

By the way... [off-topic] Odoreida? Do I detect a Stephen Potter fan here?[/off-topic]

You certainly do.

(A "h'm" climate is built up.)

[Wonko The Sane]

I could buy the whole satanic nature argument, what with all of the vampires, ghouls, monsters, forces of darkness, etc; because they are depictions of evil and such. The whole argument falls down when someone dresses up as a clown, or raggedy ann and andy. Unless you consider that sinful, because it's misleading people as to your true identity. If that's true, acting is immoral as well. I figure it's just a silly dress up day for everyone. That's all. If the holiday was originally pagan and such, fine, but it's been watered down so much, I figure it doesn't matter what the origin is, because I have no moral problem with giving out candy to kids who dress up in costumes.


To each his own though.

[Tranquilis]

Originally posted by vanilla I am the only christian I know IRL who takes her son out for it.
[/B]
Count this Born-Again type in on the fun (yeah, I know... You don't know me IRL). Believing Christ died for our sins doesn't mean that we can't pick up a book and learn a few things. And it certainly doesn't mean we can't have a good party now and again.

My little girl agrees with your son: Fancy clothes and candy! Woot woot, what fun! Of course, around where I live, it's yet another excuse for college students to get drunk, stupid, and annoying.

::sigh::

[scampering gremlin]

I'm starting to wonder if this thread wouldn't be better off in Great Debates or IMHO.

Convincing other people to alter their religious beliefs and/or childrearing practices has never been my strong suit. The folks who know me don't bother to argue this subject. If they don't like a holiday (any holiday) then they can stay at home or create an alternative celebration or whatever...just don't rain on my parade.

Somebody out there must be a big fan of Arbor Day. All those trees though...suggests Druidic ritual to me...let's all denounce it, right?

[lucie]

Well, I was raised in a pretty fundamentalist-type Born-Again Christian household, and we always celebrated Halloween. Trick-or-treat, school parties, church parties, whatever. The whole Satanism link seems to be a pretty new idea, dating from maybe the late '70's or early '80's. My parents still take the grandkids out in spite of the bad press.

[OttoDaFe]

Originally posted by techchick68
The word itself, "Halloween," actually has its origins in the Catholic Church.

Of course, anything that was ever associated with the Whore of Babylon must be Satanic! Just ask Jack Chick.

[kniz]

Originally posted by G. Odoreida
By the by, did Americans celebrate Guy Fawkes Night before independence?

Who the fawke are you talking about?

[APB]

Originally posted by G. Odoreida
I've no idea, but to speculate wildly, America to England to Scotland seems a bit unlikely, especially if Hallowe'en has been celebrated in Scotland since before WWI (I'm pretty sure it has been, from family experience). I know a lot of Christmas traditions came that way but there were good commercial reasons for that; Hallowe'en hasn't been very commercial in Scotland until recently...If there is a common link between various countries' traditions I'd have thought Ireland was a more likely origin.

The problem with 'family tradition', as with any form of oral tradition, is that it all too easily accepts claims of great antiquity for practices which are in fact much more recent. I would be very sceptical about any Irish influence. A 'Celtic' origin merely sounds more romantic than an English or American one.

Originally posted by G. Odoreida
By the by, did Americans celebrate Guy Fawkes Night before independence?

No, because this is another example of a 'tradition' which is much more recent than it seems. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries the Gunpowder Plot anniversary was primarily a religious commemoration, particularly promoted by the Church of England. Its main feature was the special sermons preached for the occasion. The traditions which we now associate with Guy Fawkes Night - bonfires, fireworks, a guy - only became widespread in England in the nineteenth century, partly as protests against attempts to repeal the laws against Roman Catholics. The practice subsequently spread to Scotland.

[Steve Wright]

Just to muddy the waters yet further, I'd always heard that "guising" referred to the custom of kids going out and collecting "pennies for the guy" - that is, that it's related to the November 5th celebration, not Halloween. This could very well be a folk etymology, though, and I wouldn't rely on it.



Originally posted by G.Odoreida
(A "h'm" climate is built up.)


Yes, but not in the South.

[APB]

Originally posted by Steve Wright
Just to muddy the waters yet further, I'd always heard that "guising" referred to the custom of kids going out and collecting "pennies for the guy" - that is, that it's related to the November 5th celebration, not Halloween. This could very well be a folk etymology, though, and I wouldn't rely on it.

The Shorter OED derives the Scottish and North of England usage from 'guise', as in manner of dress, but this usage is recorded only from 1878.

[The Stafford Cripps]

Originally posted by APB
The problem with 'family tradition', as with any form of oral tradition, is that it all too easily accepts claims of great antiquity for practices which are in fact much more recent. I would be very sceptical about any Irish influence. A 'Celtic' origin merely sounds more romantic than an English or American one.

[/B]

I'm only using family tradition evidence to point out that Hallowe'en has been celebrated in Scotland since at least as far back as the early twentieth century. I know this is going miles from the original OP but you would have to suggest how and why American traditions became rooted anywhere in the UK so long ago, without any commercial pressure. After all, a cursory reading of a Thomas Hardy book will show that the UK is full of its own folk festivals, many of which exist to this day . Why would Hallowe'en be the one that's come wholesale from a foreign country?

Don't get hung up on the possible "Celtic" origins of these celebrations; the fact is they exist. I was not equating Ireland with Celtic tradition. I'm talking about the way things have been done in the last couple of centuries, and I mention Ireland because, as entering "Scotland guising" in google shows, these two countries have had similar ways of celebrating Hallowe'en for about that length of time.

The long quote in the thread that you cited, APB, mentions nothing that has happened in the last thousand years. Cultural influences can spread out all over a continent in that time, change, and even come back to the place they originated in a completely different form. Whether or not Hallowe'en was originally Celtic, or it first surfaced in England in 800 or whatever, is one discussion. Whether current traditions of trick or treat originated first in Ireland, the USA or Vladivostok is another. To link them would be a bit like saying that the American Constitution originated in Italy, because that's where Roman type was invented.

Regarding Guy Fawkes, APB, I realise I don't know how it was celebrated in the past, but my point was whether whatever was done in the UK was also done in what's now the USA. It's not particularly important (or interesting) and since it's got very little to do with the OP, let's leave it. Sorry I'm speculating too much for GQ with all this.

[vanilla]

Our church is having a harvest party next Thursday.
We are going, cause, hey, its another party!
(and me and my son don't drink anyways..)
Its mentioned in the ad, No Ungodly Costumes.
I wonder what they mean.
My son will be a crayon.
The guy who drives us to church said he wished they wouldn't have costumes.
I assume he's real fun at parties..

[APB]

Originally posted by G. Odoreida
Whether or not Hallowe'en was originally Celtic, or it first surfaced in England in 800 or whatever, is one discussion. Whether current traditions of trick or treat originated first in Ireland, the USA or Vladivostok is another. To link them would be a bit like saying that the American Constitution originated in Italy, because that's where Roman type was invented.

I never said these questions were linked and specifically sought to address them separately.

[The Stafford Cripps]

Originally posted by APB
Originally posted by G. Odoreida
Whether or not Hallowe'en was originally Celtic, or it first surfaced in England in 800 or whatever, is one discussion. Whether current traditions of trick or treat originated first in Ireland, the USA or Vladivostok is another. To link them would be a bit like saying that the American Constitution originated in Italy, because that's where Roman type was invented.

I never said these questions were linked and specifically sought to address them separately.

Sure, but you don't seem to have any evidence to back up your idea that Hallowe'en celebrations in Britain or Ireland are an American import (of course nowadays, with supermarkets selling pumpkins, they are, but I'm talking about our parents' and grandparents' generations.)

[Embra]

APB, I think what G. Odoreida was trying to point out is that a lot of localised traditions regarding Autumn festivals exist within the British Isles. As a small child in the south-east of England, I did very little for Hallowe'en, barring the odd pumpkin and a smattering of ghost stories. The one year that I did go trick-or-treating was most definitely under the influence of my half-American friend.

However, the "guising" tradition in Scotland doesn't have a "trick" element to it. It chimes much more with the idea of earning a little something from the well-off by performing a turn. I've had some beautifully turned-out and very well-practised guisers turn up at my door over the years.

Then again, there is the tradition of "mischief night" and variations, which is a Northern English tradition around Hallowe'en. This is entirely devoted to tricks - I don't think there are any treats involved.

In Somerset, people who celebrate "Punky Night" (http://www.heathens.worldonline.co.uk/halloween/punky/index.html) (nb, no relation to the word "pumpkin :)) think that the tradition goes back 250 years. Ain't necessarily so, but it's another example of a localised custom.

Like G. Odoreida, I can't say for certain that any of these habits are older than this century. However, I think it's a little sweeping to suggest that any autumn superstitions and practices involving costumes/gifts/mischief automatically come from the USA. For such a small land-area, there are a great variety of traditions within the British Isles. I would think that it's more likely that the country with the greater rate of immigration would be the one which absorbed traditions from outside...

[The Stafford Cripps]

Originally posted by Steve Wright

Yes, but not in the South.

I have been plonking somewhat, haven't I?

[vl_mungo]

The Sonoran Lizard King's answer aside, Halloween is probably only a Satanic Holiday if you are a Satanist.
Another appropriate H L Mencken quote...
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

[MyFootsZZZ]

Halloween is not only OK to celebrate, I think it's important. When I was a kid and afraid of monsters, aliens, and death... Halloween was a chance to laugh at all of the things I was terrified of. I think overall, the fear of dying plagues a lot of us, so to have fun with what we're afraid of makes us less incline to dread it.

There was someone on the news who works at a novelty shop and said that the WTC disaster had hindered her sales on fake blood and gruesome masks. She said "I hope it's a permanent change, violence and gore is not something we should expose to our children". After she made that statement on video, the news caster said, "Wouldn't that be wonderful."

First of... people who aren't ever exposed to any type of gore, they're the ones that would probably come back from war all fucked up. Death and violence is something that's out there in the real world. THOUGH, I DO agree with peoples who want to tone the gore and blood down this year, I don't want it to be messed up forever.

Second... It's fun to be scared.

Third... Some extreme religious saps are afraid of pretty much everything. I don't know how they can leave the house knowing that there are people having sex for fun, (not JUST for procreation), or homosexual love is growing in acceptance. These are very unhappy people for the most part. I feel sorry for them and their kids.

[flodnak]

Incidentally, there was an article (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article.jhtml?articleID=214563) about Halloween in this morning's newspaper here. (Unfortunately only in Norwegian.) A church organization said they were agin' it. They made no mention of it being Satanic, however. They didn't like it because it "encouraged children to engage in pranking" and because young adults used it as another excuse to indulge in Demon Alcohol :rolleyes:

[lawoot]

Originally posted by vanilla
>snip<... Its mentioned in the ad, No Ungodly Costumes.
I wonder what they mean.
My son will be a crayon.
The guy who drives us to church said he wished they wouldn't have costumes.
I assume he's real fun at parties..

Better look out... a crayon doesn't sound very godly to me...

[Badtz Maru]

Well, when I ran with the metalhead satanist types (not the Crowley 'We Don't Really Believe in Satan but using His Name for our Brand of Hedonism Gets Us Attention' Satanists) Halloween was a pretty big day for them. You could be pretty sure that at least a few of them were trying some kind of bizarre ritual that night. Weird group...some of them actually believe in what they say and do, but most of them just play along because it's cool and it makes them feel like they are part of something. I was a hard atheist at the time, but I made up my own little cult for my friends with ideas lifted from Dante, Milton, and Lovecraft. One of my 'recruits' kept it going after I lost interest, and ended up doing some fucked up shit (slaughtering an attic full of pigeons in an abandoned building, raping and stabbing to death a German Shepherd).

[Redboss]

Welcome to the Boards G Odoreida. I think you'll be most acceptable.

Now would you kindly state clearly whether it's in or out?

Thank you



Redboss

[The Stafford Cripps]

Thank you, Redboss. Do you ever read your newspaper cuttings? - rather amusing.

[Northern Piper]

Originally posted by vl_mungo
The Sonoran Lizard King's answer aside, Halloween is probably only a Satanic Holiday if you are a Satanist.
Another appropriate H L Mencken quote...
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. Or, as the Bard put it: "Dost think that because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?"

[vanilla]

Go on! Fine a reference in teh bible that talks against crayons! Just try!
;)

[vl_mungo]

Personally, I find crayons to be verrrry scaarry... especially the red ones (bloody), the black ones (pretty sure they are Satanic), and the green ones (symbolic of illness and rot). I suggest dressing up your child as a plain white (virtuous) crayon. Or better yet... a pencil.

[k.os]

A pencil??? You want the kid do die of lead poisoning or what? :D

[tomndebb]

My Mom, who was a child in a heavily (but not exclusively) Irish neighborhood in Indianapolis in the 1920s, talks about going Trick-or-Treat-ing in a way reminiscent of guising. They went door to door begging treats, but were often greeted with, "Here's your treat, now let's see your trick."

My memory of the whole "Satanic" bit is that it seems to have arisen in the 1970s. Along with the whole "Moral Majority" schtick was an increase in "Discovering Satan in the World," in which everything not found in their interpretation of the Bible was deemed to have come from Satan. This led to a lot of parents in the 70s and later who had happily gone trick-or-treating, themselves, in the 1940s through the 1960s suddenly choosing to deny their children the same fun because "it was Satanic."
(The rise of Wiccan and neo-Paganism didn't help matters in this regard. Both the aforementioned linking of all non-Christian beliefs to Satanism and the sloppy use by Wiccans of the word "witch," reinforced the idea that had taken hold--further reinforced by the idea that only dirty, immoral hippies would indulge in Wicca or its cousin beliefs.)

[Blue Monday]

I have kids, like some here. I say it is harmless. Kids really get into it, and I like to see them come to the door. Some are really quite clever in their get up!! I'm just a kid at heart I guess.

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

My Christian friends who don't like its pagan roots have done a good job, I think, sticking to their beliefs while not denying their kids the fun. They avoid decorations and costumes that (to them) are related to the Occult--such as witches, devils, etc. But their kids have costumes and go trick-or-treating. I know they talk about this with their kids.

My friend (a good protestant) also says they could always celebrate it as the day when Martin Luther nailed those articles to the church door. :)

I'm planning to dress as a witch when we take my son around, but I'll probably leave the hat and cape in the car if we go to their house. It's the least I can do, given that I rarely if ever tone down my foul mouth in front of them.

[APB]

Originally posted by G. Odoreida
I'm only using family tradition evidence to point out that Hallowe'en has been celebrated in Scotland since at least as far back as the early twentieth century. I know this is going miles from the original OP but you would have to suggest how and why American traditions became rooted anywhere in the UK so long ago, without any commercial pressure. After all, a cursory reading of a Thomas Hardy book will show that the UK is full of its own folk festivals, many of which exist to this day . Why would Hallowe'en be the one that's come wholesale from a foreign country?

Stranger things have happened. It is also an anachronistic assumption to think that such distortions could only occur through 'commercial pressure'.

What this discussion has so far failed appreciate is that the subject of folk traditions was extremely fashionable throughout the English-speaking world in the nineteenth century. Discussions about it took place widely in print. Read any local antiquarian journal of the period or browse through any Victorian newspaper and you will find them stuffed with articles on the subject. By the mid-nineteenth century knowledge of folklore had ceased to be exclusively or even primarily oral. People knew about oral traditions because they read about them, whether in books, newspapers or Thomas Hardy. This was knowledge limited only by the circulation patterns of these publications, in other words, the whole of the British Empire and North America. This was both a benefit and a problem. The exhaustive recording of these traditions obviously created a major resource for subsequent historians; the downside is that the process of recording and publicising these traditions distorted them.

Few would now accept that such recording could ever be a wholly neutral process. Present-day oral historians are acutely aware that what they record can owe more to their own preconceptions. Their nineteenth-century predecessors, who were less aware of these dangers, usually made three confident assumptions and those three assumptions have been just as evident in this thread: (1) oral traditions are probably very ancient, (2) traditions from separate localities are likely to be interrelated, having derived from a common source - the more distant the localities, the more ancient the source, and (3) that this common source was probably 'Celtic'. The unintentional but recurring temptation was to disregard what would now be considered good scholarly practice. The choice of which material to record was often determined by the aim of proving or supporting these assumptions. What they found was then interpreted by them in the light of those assumptions, often using what would now be considered unrelated evidence for comparative purposes. Worst of all, what they published sometimes influenced or even created traditions elsewhere. The belief that a published tradition was more ancient or purer than an unpublished alternative could easily change forever the way in which the unpublished tradition was remembered. Most academic historians of British folklore now accept that no 'oral' tradition known from the late nineteenth century or later can be accepted at face value. Each of them must be considered suspect unless earlier evidence can be provided.

This is not a counsel of despair. A vast amount of archival research has been undertaken in recent decades by historians interested in the folk cultures of the British Isles in the late-medieval and early-modern periods. Sensitive scholarship can uncover much more than you might suppose. The picture that has emerged confirms the view that later oral traditions are next to useless as a tool to uncover earlier traditions, even if the gap is no more than a couple of centuries. Oral tradition unsupported by institutional structures is inherently unstable. This matches the view of the distinguished historian of Ancient Greece, the late Sir Moses Finlay, that oral traditions in any culture usually become useless to historians after only three generations. (Oral traditions that preserve a specific text are a rather different matter.) The idea of pagan survivalism has also come to seem implausible; the folk cultures of pre-modern Britain were thoroughly Christian. This was true even of early-modern witchcraft, which is now seen as either an heretical subversion of Christianity or, more likely, the product of the imaginations of its Christian persecutors.

[The Stafford Cripps]

I don't disagree with much that you've written, APB. Thomas Hardy wrote along similar lines about folk celebrations, pointing out that some were revivals and others had been handed down for at least a few generations. The ones that were recent revivals were often the only ones celebrated with any enthusiasm.

The reason I droned on for so long was because I thought you were using your cite to back up the apparent claim by you and Road Rash that Britain has no Hallowe'en traditions that have not come from America. I could not see how this cite was relevant, and I realise now it was aimed that the other discussion in this thread.

However without that cite, the only backing for your claim is your "awful feeling", the fact that you are "very sceptical" and that "stranger things have happened". No doubt they have, and you may be right about everything, but so far we've got no reason to believe you. The evidence that some of us have offered is anecdotal, but you haven't offered any.

To be clear, all I'm saying is that while the contemporary face of Hallowe'en was being developed in the USA in the 19th and 20th centuries, having been taken there by immigrants probably from the British Isles, the people who remained in Britain and Ireland carried on with their own Hallowe'en traditions. These British and Irish traditions are different in various ways from what's done in America. American Hallowe'en traditions have for the last decade or so been eclipsing our own ones but that does not mean that we all do things the way the Americans do.

I am not making any claims for where Hallowe'en comes from or how ancient it is. Nor am I being "romantic" when I mention Ireland; Scotland happens to be close to Ireland and there has always been cultural exchange of one type or other. The cite mentioned by Road Rash pretty much backs up most of what I've said.