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Liberal
10-28-2001, 02:54 PM
The misdeeds, ignorance, and barbarism of religion politicians is the stuff of legend: Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, and on and on. But as I thought about it, I honestly couldn't recall even a hint of dispersion ever cast toward Billy Graham. In fact, Charlotte, his hometown, named a major thoroughfare after him, the Billy Graham Parkway, despite their longstanding policy of naming nothing after someone until after they've died.

Vivisimo and Google searches turn up nothing (nothing credible, anyway). In fact, Salon says that Graham is "clean as a whistle" (http://www.salon.com/people/bc/2000/11/21/graham/index2.html). Does anyone know of any Billy Graham scandals?

Iguana Boy
10-28-2001, 03:19 PM
I am aware of none concerning the man himself. He does indeed appear to be to be scandal free.

There was something a couple of years ago about his son being implicated in some financial irregularity involving church (or BG's organisation), funds but I believe that nothing came of it. If I remember correctly, BG's son was just involved with the particular work to which the funds related rather than being directly implicated in the actual alleged wrongdoing, and it was only that loose connection to BG that made the whole thing newsworthy. I would do a search and a link, but it is not about BG himself, so it is not a response to the OP. I stress that these are just my feeble recollections of a one-off news story.

BG appears to be that rare example of a man who does practice what he preaches, and long may he continue to do so.

August West
10-28-2001, 03:35 PM
He didn't actually invent Graham Crackers.

Eutychus
10-28-2001, 03:37 PM
In my opinion, Billy Graham is the type of preacher that other televangelists should try to be. As far as I know, he has never been the object of any scandal whatsoever (unless you count hanging out with Richard Nixon scandalous.) He truly practices what he preaches, and when he does preach he stays to a very simple gospel message. You won't often find Graham trying to delve into any deep theology and when he does, he's not afraid to say that there are some things that he just doesn't know. He was also instrumental in creating the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (http://www.ecfa.org/default.asp) which keeps financial information on various Christian ministries on the up and up. I don't think you'll find a more honest and deicated Christian than Graham in the pantheon of televangelists.

Ross
10-28-2001, 03:53 PM
An unquestionably anointed but very young and green prophet once hinted darkly to me that all was not well in the Graham camp. He didn't say any more and I really got the impression that it was such a vague generalisation it didn't really mean anything at all; just a traditional prophet's refusal to support anything of the establishment. It may have refered to Dr Graham's offending some particularly exclusive Christian sect. I ignored it.

That is the only thing I've ever heard against the man, and it ain't much.

Oblong
10-28-2001, 03:54 PM
Some fundamentalists and evangelicals think he goes to far in his ecumenicalism (not sure if that's a word but you know what I mean). Bob Jones III has distanced himself from him and disapproved of the fact that Graham has prayed with catholics and met with the pope.

So, if you are a fundamentalist then there's your dirt.

Oblong
10-28-2001, 03:56 PM
Euthychus, I'm not sure I'd call Graham a televangelist. He does have have TV specials but that's not his main work or focus. He doesn't ask for money while on TV.

He's just a plain old preacher.

Just a minor point.

Eutychus
10-28-2001, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Oblong
Euthychus, I'm not sure I'd call Graham a televangelist. He does have have TV specials but that's not his main work or focus. He doesn't ask for money while on TV.

He's just a plain old preacher.

Just a minor point.

I'd agree with that. Just revise the reading of my post to say that Graham is what televangelists should be like.

Liberal
10-28-2001, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Oblong
Bob Jones III has distanced himself from him and disapproved of the fact that Graham has prayed with catholics and met with the pope.


Was he the one who said God would kill him if people didn't send him a million dollars in thirty days, or some such rot?

Chickenhead
10-28-2001, 04:12 PM
teeny quibble

But as I thought about it, I honestly couldn't recall even a hint of dispersion ever cast toward Billy Graham.

aspersion, i think

Liberal
10-28-2001, 04:15 PM
Egad! Thank you.

Eutychus
10-28-2001, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Libertarian
Originally posted by Oblong
Bob Jones III has distanced himself from him and disapproved of the fact that Graham has prayed with catholics and met with the pope.


Was he the one who said God would kill him if people didn't send him a million dollars in thirty days, or some such rot?

That was Oral Roberts.

kpm
10-28-2001, 04:19 PM
He used to have a policy of not going into a hotel room alone - he was afraid someone would sneak a naked woman in there and she would jump on him and someone would then snap a picture to discredit him. I doubt he still does that now.

Oblong
10-28-2001, 04:23 PM
Not only that but he never has lunch or dinner with a woman alone. Hillary Clinton wanted to have lunch with him and he said he would, but not alone.

Bob Jones III was is the head and grandson of Bob Jones University, the school that got Bush into controversy during election season because he visited there. You'll find plenty on that place.

Guinastasia
10-28-2001, 04:39 PM
I don't agree with everything Graham says-(I hear he's still of the homosexuality is a sin, mindset). But truly, he's not a jerk about it. He's not a hypocrite, and he's more, well, humble, I guess you could say. He believes in what he does, and he doesn't have that air of "holier than thou." like so many do.

I don't agree with everything he believes-but I respect the man.

Revtim
10-28-2001, 05:34 PM
Yeah, I'm an atheist and even I have respect for him. My impression is he truly is in it for non-selfish reasons.

ftg
10-28-2001, 05:49 PM
Oh well, here goes.

Bill Graham's foundation tries to hide the fact that it has a huge pile of money. Billy's afraid it would discourage fund raising if people knew how well off they really are. Several church and charity rating groups rank his low for reasons like this. Note: I'm not saying they're spending money unwisely, just there's a large lack of openness open what's going on.

But that's minor compared to:

Billy likes politicians of a certain political bent, regardless of their ethics or even if they are truly (vs. "publicly") religous. And the more scum-sucking the politician, the more Billy seemed to like him. A guy who thought Dick Nixon was a great moral leader doesn't strike me as having a full deck, religous credo-wise. I wouldn't trust this guy's opinions on religous matters one solitary bit. I don't think God belongs to a political party.

Liberal
10-28-2001, 05:56 PM
Weak, weak, weak. According to the Salon site cited above:

The only glitch in Graham's half-century run of salvation came in 1978 when the Charlotte Observer revealed that the BGEA had kept hidden from its members and contributors a $23 million "World Evangelism Fund." But no one accused Graham of misusing the fund, just hiding it. And after that he opened BGEA's books for annual accounting, even though as a charity the organization wasn't legally required to do so. In 1976, it subsequently turned out, the BGEA took in $28.7 million and spent $27.7 million. Not much dirt there.

Graham lives modestly in the log-and-frame house he and his wife built in the hills of Montreat, N.C., in the late '50s. There they raised daughters Gigi, Anne and Ruth, and sons Franklin and Ned. Graham takes a nominal salary from the BGEA.

And your comments about the politicians were a waste of space. C'mon, this is GQ. I'm looking for substantive answers here. If you know of any real scandal, give a link.

darkcool
10-28-2001, 07:01 PM
Didn't he claim to have seen a 50 foot tall Jesus?
Or was that Oral Roberts....

Bricker
10-28-2001, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by ftg
Oh well, here goes.

Bill Graham's foundation tries to hide the fact that it has a huge pile of money. Billy's afraid it would discourage fund raising if people knew how well off they really are. Several church and charity rating groups rank his low for reasons like this. Note: I'm not saying they're spending money unwisely, just there's a large lack of openness open what's going on.

But that's minor compared to:

Billy likes politicians of a certain political bent, regardless of their ethics or even if they are truly (vs. "publicly") religous. And the more scum-sucking the politician, the more Billy seemed to like him. A guy who thought Dick Nixon was a great moral leader doesn't strike me as having a full deck, religous credo-wise. I wouldn't trust this guy's opinions on religous matters one solitary bit. I don't think God belongs to a political party.

Thanks, Lib, for an excellent cited refutation to this. It would be nice, now, if ftg were to come back and acknowledge the correction - or, indeed, to offer a contrary cite. Intellectual honesty, ftg...

And to address the OP - although as a Catholic, I'm no particular devotee of Graham's, I have to add to the laudatory comments -- he is, by acocunts, a man who lives what he teaches. He's to be admired.

- Rick
- Rick

Zenster
10-28-2001, 07:35 PM
According to legend, Billy Graham once met with Swaggart, Bakker and (I believe) Roberts and mentioned that all of them should adopt a code of ethics concerning the solictation of donations on television.

Reportedly, his suggestion was met with hysterical laughter.


That's all I ever heard about him.

pesch
10-28-2001, 07:36 PM
The Charlotte Observer reported in the late '70s that Graham reused material in his books.

That's it. He plagiarized himself. I'm so ashamed to even share this, but you asked.

Speaking as someone who lived for most of 30 years in the Charlotte area, where Graham is very well known, that and the other few items mentioned above sum up the dirt.

Amazing concept: act according to your principles and live a scandal-free life.

Bill H.
10-28-2001, 07:36 PM
ftg wrote
Billy likes politicians of a certain political bent, regardless of their ethics or even if they are truly (vs. "publicly") religous. And the more scum-sucking the politician, the more Billy seemed to like him. A guy who thought Dick Nixon was a great moral leader doesn't strike me as having a full deck, religous credo-wise. I wouldn't trust this guy's opinions on religous matters one solitary bit. I don't think God belongs to a political party.
The Nixon reference and the God's political party reference seem to indicate you believe Graham supports one party or one political mindset. You should probably do a bit of research before making such accusations.

Every U.S. President since Truman has found occasion to call on Graham. As many connections you can find between him and Nixon, you can find between him and Truman or him and Clinton. He's done a great job of crossing party bounderies and encouraging moral leadership in politics.

I find him to be an honest man and a great moral example to Christians and non-Christians. And I'm an atheist.

Eutychus
10-28-2001, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by ftg

Billy likes politicians of a certain political bent, regardless of their ethics or even if they are truly (vs. "publicly") religous. And the more scum-sucking the politician, the more Billy seemed to like him. A guy who thought Dick Nixon was a great moral leader doesn't strike me as having a full deck, religous credo-wise. I wouldn't trust this guy's opinions on religous matters one solitary bit. I don't think God belongs to a political party.

First of all, I would appreciate a cite that Graham thought Nixon was "a great moral leader."

Secondly, I would humbly submit that even if what you say is true, maybe the fact that the politicians were pretty low meant that Graham thought they needed his guidance more. Even Jesus hung out with sinners and tax-collectors. (Is that redundant?)

Thirdly, for my money, here's the best reason I can give for believeing that Graham is worthwhile :

Texe Marrs hates him. (http://www.texemarrs.com/061998/graham.htm)

pesch
10-28-2001, 07:57 PM
While looking for a cite, I came across this site (http://www.heroesofhistory.com/page18.html) that criticizes Graham for his pursuit of presidential friendships, and the price that he paid. The source for this is "A Prophet With Honor," a biography which was described by Kirkus Reviews as "a sympathetic but balanced biography." (Source: amazon.com)

mangeorge
10-28-2001, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by August West
He didn't actually invent Graham Crackers.
DID SO :p
Mr. 'not a christian' here kinda admires the man.
Peace,
mangeorge

ftg
10-28-2001, 11:49 PM
See http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/apr1980/v37-1-criticscorner1.htm down near the end of section 89. The previously mentioned Salon article backs up my other point.

I assume at this point the retraction requesters will retract themselves?

There's a lot of articles out there that document Graham's political leanings. Just do a Google, sheesh.

Liberal
10-29-2001, 05:06 AM
With all due respect, ftg, that's the kind of stuff I had already found with Vivisimo and Google, as noted in the OP.

You've cited subjective opinion from biased sources dealing with the doctor's very early career that say nothing more than, "Well, I just don't like him, and he could have done a couple of things differently as I see it." I don't know about you, but I don't consider such musings as evidence of anything other than the bias and myopia of their authors. Political affiliation does not a scandal make.

I'm looking for a smoking gun, here. Something that says Graham stole some money, hired a prostitute, defrauded a contributor, or lied about his credentials. Something like that. I want adultery. I want robbery. I want hypocrisy. Don't you know what scandal is?

Eutychus
10-29-2001, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Libertarian
I want adultery.

You and me both. ;)

Una Persson
10-29-2001, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by darkcool
Didn't he claim to have seen a 50 foot tall Jesus?
Or was that Oral Roberts....

It was a 600-foot Jesus, picking people like flowers. And it was Oral Roberts.

Una Persson
10-29-2001, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Libertarian
I'm looking for a smoking gun, here. Something that says Graham stole some money, hired a prostitute, defrauded a contributor, or lied about his credentials. Something like that. I want adultery. I want robbery. I want hypocrisy. Don't you know what scandal is?
Libertarian, I do like your posts, and I'm certainly no Christian (or any other religion), but this thread is starting to seem in poor taste and bother me. I'm curious - can you say what is the fundamental reason, or goal you are trying to accomplish here by egging people on to "find the dirt" on Billy Graham? :confused:

Mahaloth
10-29-2001, 10:57 AM
Conservative Christians have always been surprised that Graham has never made his position clear on abortion.

Liberal
10-29-2001, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Anthracite
I'm curious - can you say what is the fundamental reason, or goal you are trying to accomplish here by egging people on to "find the dirt" on Billy Graham? :confused:

No, I cannot. And neither have I stopped beating my wife inasmuch as I never started.

kniz
10-29-2001, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Anthracite
Libertarian, I do like your posts, and I'm certainly no Christian (or any other religion), but this thread is starting to seem in poor taste and bother me. I'm curious -can you say what is the fundamental reason, or goal you are trying to accomplish here by egging people on to "find the dirt" on Billy Graham? :confused: [/B]

I won't speak for Lib, but to me it is a tribute to Billy Graham. Even those that have mentioned possible flaws have done so in a manner that shows that it is trival.

I have a flaw to mention that is also very trival, but it shows that what to one person means nothing, to another is a flaw. My sixth grade teacher was that teacher that everyone wishes they had never had as a teacher. Billy Graham had just started and she thought he was the most wonderful man in the world. But there was a problem, Billy Graham had divorced his college sweetheart and my teacher was constantly making excuses for it. Because of her I used to hate Mr. Graham, but over time have come to admire him.

As to the president question, I remember that BG came out before President Carter and said that he had come to realize that he needed to keep more distance between himself and whoever was the president. So, if this is a criticism against him, it is one that he himself realized and acknowledged.

Yes, Mrs. Cox, I defended Billy Graham

Una Persson
10-29-2001, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Libertarian
Originally posted by Anthracite
I'm curious - can you say what is the fundamental reason, or goal you are trying to accomplish here by egging people on to "find the dirt" on Billy Graham? :confused:

No, I cannot. And neither have I stopped beating my wife inasmuch as I never started.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Your own posts here indicate that you are looking for the dirt on Billy Graham. Are you claiming that these statements do not give this impression?

Originally posted by Libertarian
Does anyone know of any Billy Graham scandals?
Originally posted by Libertarian
C'mon, this is GQ. I'm looking for substantive answers here. If you know of any real scandal, give a link.
Originally posted by Libertarian
I'm looking for a smoking gun, here. Something that says Graham stole some money, hired a prostitute, defrauded a contributor, or lied about his credentials. Something like that. I want adultery. I want robbery. I want hypocrisy. Don't you know what scandal is?

Please note that I didn't assign any motives at all to your asking. But please, don't try to talk down to me and tell me that your posts did not have the appearance of trying to get people to "find the dirt". Because that is exactly how they appear.

I withdraw my question as to why you want to know - it's not my business. But don't talk down to me and try to pretend like I didn't have a valid point here.

Liberal
10-29-2001, 02:04 PM
Aw, crap, Ant. Cut it out.

-----

Thanks, all. I think I have my answer now. He is, as Salon says, clean as a whistle.