Gene Roddenberry=Communist?

[bouv]

Is it just me, or is the Earth of the Star Trek universe a communist society? It has been said many times that money is not used, that basic needs are provided to everyone at the same level. In First Contact, Picard himself said that money is no longer the driving force in people's lives, which is essentially the whole concept to capitalism. Add to that the fact that the whole world is rules by this 'Starfleet' entity that seems to control everyone and everything. The only way to have a better 'living style', (i.e.: bigger place to live, better food, etc...) is to be a high ranking official in this entity. Seems a little too coincidental to me.

[GIGObuster]

Gee, first time I quote myself:
I think it sounds communistic only because the science and technology of the Star Trek Universe allows for a more egalitarian society, remember the replicator technology and advances in mental and general health. The effect of that and other new technologies geared for good, could reach amazing levels in the future; but only if the future generations or we make sure of it. This is kinda similar to the idea that the economic reasons for slavery ended when technology showed to be superior to hand labor, at picking cotton for example. (I am excluding here the human reasons why slavery ended (That is worthy of a great debate)) IMO Star Trek only looks communistic; otherwise, Quark would find it impossible to make profits.
Gene Roddenberry profited from Star Trek:
http://www.roddenberry.com/creations/bio/groddenberry.bio.html
Gene was a giant in a business often dominated by pygmies; a game player who pushed the envelope where and when he could, often just to see how far he could go and how much he could get away with. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t. Gene had his detractors, but in a business that is largely ego-driven and populated by talented people who are often more highly rewarded than their talent would warrant, Gene had surprisingly few enemies - less than you could count on two hands - an accomplishment in itself for a career that spanned 35 years.
The accusation in the title of this tread makes no sense.

[Cliffy]

Roddenberry had the same idea of the ideal society as Marx, Lenin, and Gus Hall did, that's for sure. But whereas the last two thought you could bring that society about today, Roddenberry didn't. He thought humans had a lot of growing up to do first. So he wasn't a Communist the way Paul Robeson was, but he believed that some day mankind would mature enough to stop fighting amongst itself and put its resources into reaching for the stars. I belive that too. (But not anytime bloody soon.)

--Cliffy

[Dewey Cheatem Undhow]

I think it's important to note that the Star Trek universe lacks a fundamental reason for the existence of capitalism, namely scarcity. Capitalism, communism, and other "isms" are about how to distribute scarce resources (and I think history has shown that capitalism does so in the most efficient manner).

In Star Trek, there is no scarcity, at least for the fundamental things like food, housing, clothing, etc.: it can all made via replicator, and it can all be distributed via teleporter. Power to run the replicators and transporters is apparently inextinguishable, at least for all practical purposes, thanks to matter/antimatter systems. And Star Trek assumes that all the physical and human capital needed to put these systems into place have already been expended (e.g., replicators, etc., are already essentially everywhere). In a world where both production and distribution costs are essentially zero -- where you can feed, clothe, and dress your family for basically nothing -- the rules of the economic game have been fundamentally altered.

Given all that, I think it's unsurprising that Star Trek economics would differ from Real-World economics. It's not about humans "growing up" or "maturing enough to stop fighting," it's about a fundamental alteration in how goods can be produced and distributed.

[MJH2]

...and lacking the capitalistic drive of our time, Picard once says (to paraphrase) that the challenge is to improve oneself, to grow, to develop your talents and be all that you can be. No one can or should hold you back from doing that.

I tend to view the Federation as a socialistic society, in that everyone's basic needs are met -- food, clothing, shelter, education, etc -- in return for which everyone is expected (challenged?) to become a contributing member of society. As several posters have noted, this is not communism in the way we conceive it today, in large part because the "drivers" of present-day capitalism and communism are absent in the 24th-century Federation.

To me, Rodenberry's vision is more utopian than communist. One vision might include the other, but not vice-versa.

[Cliffy]

Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow
It's not about humans "growing up" or "maturing enough to stop fighting," it's about a fundamental alteration in how goods can be produced and distributed.

In my original draft of my first post I mentioned the lack of scarcity, but I think that's a blind alley. The replicator didn't become available until TNG, and yet Trek described the same utopian/commune society not only in TOS but as largely accomplished by the time of the current Enterprise episodes. I really do think it has more to do with a process of maturation. As such, Roddenberry's vision was IMO very Marxian -- there will come a time in human history where we won't need to squabble over resources, not because they become abundant, but because we become rational about their allocation.

--Cliffy

[SpaceGhostofArrakis]

As indicated by his early TNG episodes, I've since came to the conclusion that Roddenberry's bizarre ideals (complete disrespect for human nature, for one) was matched only by Frank Herbert's Ramblings in Chapterhouse: Dune.

[Odesio]

Personally I don't think Gene Roddenberry gave all that much thought into how human society of the future was suppose to work. If he did he really didn't seem to include all that much of it in the series. Although at first glance it seems that it is some sort of socialist utopia they still can't seem to escape capitalism.

1. In the first episode of TNG B. Crusher has several bolts of cloth transported to the ship and charged to her account.

2. In the move ST: Generations Capt. Kirk mentions to Picard that he sold the house they were standing in years ago.

3. Rikker has credits to spend gambling at casinos.

4. The Picard family owns their own vineyard in France.

So all in all I'd have to say that Star Trek isn't a commie paradise though maybe it is a socialist paradise. It is better to look at Star Trek as a fairy tale and not expect all that much realism. I've always found the most alien creatures in Star Trek, particularly TNG, to be the humans.

Marc

[Dewey Cheatem Undhow]

Originally posted by Cliffy
In my original draft of my first post I mentioned the lack of scarcity, but I think that's a blind alley. The replicator didn't become available until TNG, and yet Trek described the same utopian/commune society not only in TOS but as largely accomplished by the time of the current Enterprise episodes.

Are you sure about that? I seem to recall Kirk, et al, grabbing their meals from little window stations in TOS. I certainly don't remember some dude who looks like Mel from "Alice" whipping up burgers for Kirk and Spock. They may not have been called out by name, but I suspect replicators are part of the TOS universe.

Of course, I'm not exactly a Trek-o-phile, so I am more than willing to be corrected on this point if I'm wrong.

Oh, and just some wild-assed speculation to keep my point alive in the event I am wrong: it's possible that this technology could be present on Earth at the time of TOS, but hasn't been made compact enough to include on a deep-space starship that may not see Earth for five years. Just my WAG.

I think you have to eliminate the problem of scarcity for the anti-capitalist Trek world to be remotely plausible (not that "plausibility" is particularly important to a show that has warp drives and transporters, I suppose) -- after all, every society has to decide how to divvy up the goods. Absent a free market, who makes those choices? Starfleet? How do they prevent the problems of centralized decisionmaking that killed the Soviet Union?

[MJH2]

I think one thing we might consider is that the Star Trek series (including Enterprise) spans something on the order of two centuries. It is reasonable to assume that, as technology became more sophisticated and more accessible to the general population, there was a commensurate impact on society, the economy and the way people lived day-to-day.

For instance, in Enterprise transporting technology is in its infancy and is used sparingly. By the time of TOS, the transporter is used routinely but replication technology (which is related to transporter tech) lags behind. In TNG and DS9, replicators for food and material goods are commonplace, at least in deep-space. (On a side note, I seem to remember Keiko, Chief O'Brien's wife, having difficulty perfecting her recipes for the replicator when she first came to DS9. This suggests that on "home planets", replicators were used to supplement the production of organic foods to varying degrees, much in the way we used microwave ovens.) In TNG, holodeck technology -- also related to transporter and replicator tech -- seems to be a brand-new thing, but finds exhaustive use on Voyager just 10 years later.

We don't get to see much about the actual influences these technological advances had on Earth, but I think it is safe to assume that they brought about certain changes, just as other tech developments would have done.

As for the examples given by MGibson, these are all correct but I think even a society which did not use hard currency for internal transactions would have developed some way to conduct transactions with societies that did.

In other words, the Federation was not a completely money-less society but one which functioned with electronic "credits", IIRC. Presumably citizens received credits which they could use as they please -- like electronic food stamps -- to gamble, buy and sell property, bolts of cloth, whatever, but the driving force of society and individual life was not the accumulation of credits/wealth.

[Cliffy]

Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow
Are you sure about that? I seem to recall Kirk, et al, grabbing their meals from little window stations in TOS.... Of course, I'm not exactly a Trek-o-phile, so I am more than willing to be corrected on this point if I'm wrong.

You're wrong. ^;)^ There was a cook on the Enterprise (NCC-1701); in the early episode Charlie X he calls up to the bridge when Charlie turns the ship's reconstituted freeze-dried Thanksgiving turkeys into real ones.

Oh, and just some wild-assed speculation to keep my point alive in the event I am wrong: it's possible that this technology could be present on Earth at the time of TOS, but hasn't been made compact enough to include on a deep-space starship that may not see Earth for five years. Just my WAG.

Good point.

I think you have to eliminate the problem of scarcity for the anti-capitalist Trek world to be remotely plausible.... How do they prevent the problems of centralized decisionmaking that killed the Soviet Union?

You've proved my point -- they've matured. Nobody "makes" those decisions in the sense that we think of them. Stakeholders caucus, debate, and come to an understanding of how best to achieve the greatest good.

--Cliffy

[Dewey Cheatem Undhow]

Originally posted by Cliffy
I think you have to eliminate the problem of scarcity for the anti-capitalist Trek world to be remotely plausible.... How do they prevent the problems of centralized decisionmaking that killed the Soviet Union?

You've proved my point -- they've matured. Nobody "makes" those decisions in the sense that we think of them. Stakeholders caucus, debate, and come to an understanding of how best to achieve the greatest good.[/B]

That isn't possible. Assuming scarcity, some decision must be made as to how resources are allocated. You can caucus, debate, etc. all you want, but at the end of the day decisions must be made. The problem with non-free market economies is that they lack a mechanism to determine where resources are most needed (in a free market, this information is communicated via price). Non-free market economies rely on someone (or some group) to decide where resources are most needed. This usually results in a poor distribution of resources.

In other words, even given that people have achieved some sort of "higher consciousness" in the Trek world that makes them totally altruistic, without a selfish bone in any of their bodies, I don't think the Trek world works (assuming scarcity) because those decisions are made without the benefit of crucial information.

[Ike Witt]

Originally posted by SpaceGhostofArrakis
As indicated by his early TNG episodes, I've since came to the conclusion that Roddenberry's bizarre ideals (complete disrespect for human nature, for one) was matched only by Frank Herbert's Ramblings in Chapterhouse: Dune.

I realize that this thread is about Star Trek, but I would like to get some specific examples of what you are refering to.

[Cliffy]

Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow
That isn't possible. Assuming scarcity, some decision must be made as to how resources are allocated. You can caucus, debate, etc. all you want, but at the end of the day decisions must be made.

Well, whatever. The "decision" is made by the stakeholders after a thorough understanding of the possible costs and benefits of each option available.

--Cliffy

[Dewey Cheatem Undhow]

Originally posted by Cliffy
Well, whatever. The "decision" is made by the stakeholders after a thorough understanding of the possible costs and benefits of each option available.

And again, in Trek-world, all those decisions are made without the benefit of the constant feedback mechanism found in free market systems. No amount of altruism on the part of the decisionmakers will cure that problem.

Plus, this consensus model hardly seems efficient. Assuming Earth isn't a Borglike collective, adding participants to the decisonmaking process exponentially increases the difficulty of attaining consensus.

And besides, I don't really see this "consensus model" at work in TOS. Kirk, if you'll recall, was not exactly a touchy-feely kind of guy. He may have sought the advice of his shipmates from time to time, but no one questioned who was making the actual decisions on the bridge.

[spartical]

Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow
Are you sure about that? I seem to recall Kirk, et al, grabbing their meals from little window stations in TOS.... Of course, I'm not exactly a Trek-o-phile, so I am more than willing to be corrected on this point if I'm wrong.

You're wrong. ^;)^ There was a cook on the Enterprise (NCC-1701); in the early episode Charlie X he calls up to the bridge when Charlie turns the ship's reconstituted freeze-dried Thanksgiving turkeys into real ones.

--Cliffy


Just to clarifly there was,in TOS, a device called a food synthersizer which worked in the same way as a replicator.

Food synthesizers were located in numerous locations throughout Constitution-class starships, including the transporter room. (TOS: "Tomorrow is Yesterday")

In 2268, while the USS Enterprise was infested with tribbles, it was discovered that they had gotten into the food processors aboard the ship through one of the ship's air vents. (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles"; DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations")

One of the reasons Rojan cited for neutralizing non-essential Enterprise personnel during the trip to the Andromeda Galaxy was to conserve the food synthesizer's resources. (TOS: "By Any Other Name")

Nurse Chapel offered the surviving children of the Starnes Exploration Party a selection of cards with differing flavors of ice cream to choose from. All they had to do was pick a card and the computer would mix their favorite combination. (TOS: "And the Children Shall Lead")

Upon taking on a contingent of Klingon officers, lead by Kang, aboard the Enterprise, Captain Kirk ordered Johnson to have the food synthesizers programmed to accommodate their guests. (TOS: "Day of the Dove")

[BigT]

Yes, but it seems like the food synthesizers were very simple replicators. Those resources you describe indicate that they had to stock them with something, probably raw materials. Replicators seem to only need energy to work, and can manufacture things other than food. Remember, the TOS crew are completely aghast at planet that does seem to use replicator technology to give them whatever they want.

I think that, while scarcity was not completely eliminated, it seems like it was almost of no consequence at a practical level by the time of TOS. I've always supposed that my welfare society was in place: anyone could get the bare essentials (as the cost for the government was negligible), but you had to work for more.

[Little Nemo]

Gene was a giant in a business often dominated by pygmies; a game player who pushed the envelope where and when he could, often just to see how far he could go and how much he could get away with. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t. Gene had his detractors, but in a business that is largely ego-driven and populated by talented people who are often more highly rewarded than their talent would warrant, Gene had surprisingly few enemies - less than you could count on two hands - an accomplishment in itself for a career that spanned 35 years.
And if you can't trust a site called roddenberry.com to give an unbiased view on Gene Roddenberry, who can you trust?

[alphaboi867]

...(On a side note, I seem to remember Keiko, Chief O'Brien's wife, having difficulty perfecting her recipes for the replicator when she first came to DS9. This suggests that on "home planets", replicators were used to supplement the production of organic foods to varying degrees, much in the way we used microwave ovens...

Keep in mind that the replicaters on DS9 were Cardassian, not the Starfleet/Federation civilian models she was used to using. She also expressed a mixture of amazment/shock/disgust when describing how her mother-in-law would handle real meat :eek: with her bare hands.

And the entire space station was technically sovereign Bajoran territory, not a Federation outpost. Which is why money was still in use, there were restaurants, shops, and a casino. Starfleet personel were seen using all of these facilities which implies that they were payed somehow. Oddly the restaurants (or at least Quark's) were shown to replicate most of their food using the same replicators available in the Replimat or housing units. IIRC only the Klingon restaurant was explicitly shown to actually prepare food in a kitchen (Klingons seemed to have an aversion to replicated food).

Was the Replimat free or were patrons charged (maybe it was only free for Starfleet personel and others had to pay)? Was there an extra charge for using the replicators in quarters (like room service) or was that included in the rent? Was there even rent? Presumably Starfleet or Bajoran personel wouldn't just been assinged relief wells at part of their jobs, but what the civilians? Did ships have to pay docking fees or being serviced by station personel?

[Kamino Neko]

(Klingons seemed to have an aversion to replicated food).

You can't replicate living tissue, and most Klingon foods are meant to be eaten still squirming, or at least still warm.

[The Piranha Brothers]

...(On a side note, I seem to remember Keiko, Chief O'Brien's wife, having difficulty perfecting her recipes for the replicator when she first came to DS9. This suggests that on "home planets", replicators were used to supplement the production of organic foods to varying degrees, much in the way we used microwave ovens...

Keep in mind that the replicaters on DS9 were Cardassian, not the Starfleet/Federation civilian models she was used to using. She also expressed a mixture of amazment/shock/disgust when describing how her mother-in-law would handle real meat :eek: with her bare hands.

And the entire space station was technically sovereign Bajoran territory, not a Federation outpost. Which is why money was still in use, there were restaurants, shops, and a casino. Starfleet personel were seen using all of these facilities which implies that they were payed somehow. Oddly the restaurants (or at least Quark's) were shown to replicate most of their food using the same replicators available in the Replimat or housing units. IIRC only the Klingon restaurant was explicitly shown to actually prepare food in a kitchen (Klingons seemed to have an aversion to replicated food).

Was the Replimat free or were patrons charged (maybe it was only free for Starfleet personel and others had to pay)? Was there an extra charge for using the replicators in quarters (like room service) or was that included in the rent? Was there even rent? Presumably Starfleet or Bajoran personel wouldn't just been assinged relief wells at part of their jobs, but what the civilians? Did ships have to pay docking fees or being serviced by station personel?

But in the episode where Cisco's son wants to buy him a baseball card he needs the Ferengi kid to pay for him. (And I don't even like Deep Shit 9!) They do what they always do: leave it very sketchy until there is an episode where they make up the details on the spot when needed.

But since only TOS, TAS and TNG were created by Gene, we have now left the OP... to go... where no discussion... has gone before???

[Sage Rat]

I really do think it has more to do with a process of maturation.
Technically speaking, there's no particular barrier to genetically modifying mankind to all be the sort of person who is willing to go out and work hard every day, regardless of how he's treated for it. Capitalism works because it figures that if you're a good and noble person, you'll go out and do your best for society regardless of anything. But if you're not that sort of person, you can still be bribed into acting like one. If you entirely get rid of the second group of people, then you don't need to maintain a Capitalist system.

But of course, then you're not watching a show about humanity. It's a show about a group of genetic freaks. ;)

[BigT]

No, but there is a law against it by that time. Genetic engineering tends to produce guys who like to put eels in people's heads and quote Moby Dick.

[devilsknew]

I don't think he was a communist or a socialist, just a technologist. Many people have become adjusted to this technological , paradigm... but paradigms change and their unexpected capalistic freefal follow in effect.

[Sage Rat]

No, but there is a law against it by that time. Genetic engineering tends to produce guys who like to put eels in people's heads and quote Moby Dick.
That we know of. It's theoretically possible that the whole Federation is predicated on a great, looming secret that's been erased from history.

[The Piranha Brothers]

Bit of a sidetrack but I always marvelled at that "smurfs=communist" theory.

"What? They use no money? They must be communists! Aaahhh! Head for the hills!"

[Der Trihs]

I think you have to eliminate the problem of scarcity for the anti-capitalist Trek world to be remotely plausible (not that "plausibility" is particularly important to a show that has warp drives and transporters, I suppose) -- after all, every society has to decide how to divvy up the goods. Absent a free market, who makes those choices? Starfleet? How do they prevent the problems of centralized decisionmaking that killed the Soviet Union?By not having such extremely centralized decisionmaking. Consider that when people want something, they just ask for it from a replicator. There's no central authority deciding how much "Tea, Earl Grey" gets shipped to the Enterprise, Picard just asks for it. Having such universal manufacturing devices makes centralized economic decision making far more effective because it makes the job far simpler; instead of having to literally decide where every roll of duct tape goes, all the government needs to do is allocate raw materials and power. Most of the actual decisionmaking is made on site.

It's not really Communist because people have far too much freedom to choose; there's far too little planning. But it isn't free market capitalism either because there's not much of a market. Industry is just a free utility.

But in the episode where Cisco's son wants to buy him a baseball card he needs the Ferengi kid to pay for him. But that's not a Federation station. The Feds have a post scarcity society, but other societies still run on money.

And again, in Trek-world, all those decisions are made without the benefit of the constant feedback mechanism found in free market systems. Sure you do; in what people ask for from the machines. I expect they have some sort of freeware model with people uploading designs/patterns for the replicators.

[Bytegeist]

I expect they have some sort of freeware model with people uploading designs/patterns for the replicators.

Just imagine the virus and Trojan-horse possibilities that would bring.

Computer! Tea, Earl Grey. 42 degrees Celsius. Slightly sweetened.

* Bzhzhzhzhzhzhzh.... *

Gaaah!

[Bryan Ekers]

Well, heck, there was a fully-functioning galley in Trek VI, complete with pots boiling on stoves and whatnot and, oddly, an unsecured weapons locker from which hand phasers can be casually plucked, presumably to be used when the time comes to turn the crated calf into veal.

[runner pat]

Well, heck, there was a fully-functioning galley in Trek VI, complete with pots boiling on stoves and whatnot and, oddly, an unsecured weapons locker from which hand phasers can be casually plucked, presumably to be used when the time comes to turn the crated calf into veal.
[fanwank]
Maybe it's a hobby room for those who like to cook "old-fashioned style".
[fanwank]

About the phasers, dunno.

[mlees]

But that's not a Federation station. The Feds have a post scarcity society, but other societies still run on money.

Harry Mudd. Kirk does not express any kind of fascination that traders still exist. Mudd sells Tribbles on K7 to Uhura, and she "pays" with credits, whatever they are.

[Tom Scud]

Well, heck, there was a fully-functioning galley in Trek VI, complete with pots boiling on stoves and whatnot and, oddly, an unsecured weapons locker from which hand phasers can be casually plucked, presumably to be used when the time comes to turn the crated calf into veal.

They used phasers to make the creme brulee.

[mlees]

I suppose there could still be "markets", especially in underdeveloped areas where replicators aren't available.

Also, there may be a demand for "the real thing", instead of replicated copies. Think wine snobs, for example.

[Bytegeist]

They used phasers to make the creme brulee.

Gentlemen. Set phasers on 'caramelize'.

[silenus]

I suppose there could still be "markets", especially in underdeveloped areas where replicators aren't available.

Also, there may be a demand for "the real thing", instead of replicated copies. Think wine snobs, for example.

And we know wine snobs still exist because of the Picard winery/vineyard.

[Balance]

But that's not a Federation station. The Feds have a post scarcity society, but other societies still run on money.Mudd sells Tribbles on K7 to Uhura, and she "pays" with credits, whatever they are.
Cyrano Jones. Mudd was in two other episodes, only one of which actually depicted him as anything like a trader.

Jones traded in exotic items. He sold living creatures, which presumably could not be replicated (though I see no technical bar to it--this is more likely a legal restriction), flame gems, and "Antarean glow-water". There did not seem to be much of a market for the latter two items, but presumably they were not available from replicators for some reason; given the names, maybe they had energy signatures that were incompatible with replicator tech, or maybe they had just never had patterns encoded.

Mudd was actually trading in women, essentially selling the equivalent of mail-order brides (with a side line of "Venus drug"). Presumably, there are some pretty strict laws against replicating people.

"Post-scarcity" does not necessarily mean that anything and everything is available to everyone at all times. It means that, at minimum, all necessities are available to everyone at no cost. There can still be things to buy or trade for--services, novelties, and art, to name a few--and you still need some way to mediate these exchanges.

The RPG Eclipse Phase goes into a great deal of detail on post-scarcity economies. The setting has an equivalent to replicator tech--nanofabrication devices called cornucopia machines--and effectively unlimited power. It addresses three major types of economy in a system where such tech exists.

The "old" or traditional economy: Cornucopia machines exist, but are strictly controlled by one or more manufacturing companies, who sell the items they produce to a captive market. (Think of old mining towns with a company store.) The economy runs on money.

The transitional economy: Cornucopia machines are available to the general public, but are restricted to only producing necessities--you can make your own food, drink, clothing and shelter effectively for free, or for the price of a nominal tax. Corporations control the unrestricted machines, and use them to manufacture luxury goods for sale. There's also a barter system of sorts, in which people produce novel designs and recipes for the public machines and swap them for other designs, services, or non-manufactured goods. The barter economy is mediated chiefly by reputation--this is similar to the reputation systems on some message boards. Basically, if you're known to produce good things and help people out, people are more likely to trade with you. The economy runs on a combination of money and rep (which can be thought of in terms of "credit").

The "new" economy: Unrestricted (or nearly unrestricted--many of them lock out weapon of mass destruction designs) cornucopia machines are available to anyone. You can make pretty much anything you want, though if your design uses rare materials, you'll probably have to supply them. Trade is almost entirely in novel designs and services, and is handled by rep. People who contribute a lot to the community--by doing support work to keep things running and by producing popular designs--garner high reps, and can trade on those reps to get things they want. If you stop producing and start mooching, people notice, and your rep drops. The economy runs entirely on rep, except when trading with outsiders (who have no local rep, and have little reason to value the rep of locals). If a local needs to buy something from an outsider, he can trade on his rep to get money from someone who has sold something to an outsider--basically a currency exchange between "credit" and "money".

In the time of TOS, it seems to me that the Federation runs on something like an advanced transitional economy; necessities are readily available to all, but services and luxury goods like jewelry and pets must be traded for. Rep and money are effectively interchangeable symbols for the goods and services you provide, and are quantified as "credits". Uhura, for example, provides a valuable service to the Federation through her service in Star Fleet--she's contributing to the common defense and exploration. She receives credit (rep) for that, which she can use to acquire other goods. In practical terms, credits are money, but the attitude behind them is changing, which is why Kirk at one point claims that they don't use money.

In TNG, they've moved farther into a transitional economy, almost to a "new" economy within the Federation. Most luxury goods can be replicated easily, but people trade for luxury goods that they don't have replicator patterns for--bolts of cloth with a novel design, particular vintages of wine, items that still can't be replicated, and so forth. The rep system has fully assumed the role of money, with automated tracking and conversion mechanisms for dealing with external systems, but the Feds (snooty bunch that they are) regard it as something very different. They never go into the details of how much various people get "paid", but it's possible that an officer's pay fluctuates depending on current public attitudes toward Star Fleet--so when a ship makes some great discovery, or is dealing with a publicly known threat, their pay may spontaneously rise. If they screw up in some spectacular way, they may actually get their accounts docked.

So, when Riker is gambling with credits, he is literally staking his reputation (or part of it, at least) on his skill and luck.

[AClockworkMelon]

If a local needs to buy something from an outsider, he can trade on his rep to get money from someone who has sold something to an outsider--basically a currency exchange between "credit" and "money".But why couldn't he just use his replicator to create something that would be valuable to the outsider?

[PrettyVacant]

Wrong end of the stick in the OP imo, instead the Borg represented communism.

[Lemur866]

Yes, the utopia is kept pretty vague, because the shows aren't about how the utopia works.

It's pretty clear that with replicators and other automation, there's no need for an average person to work for a living. Yes, there are big projects that require some form of coordination--like building starships for instance. But food, drink, shelter, clothing, and entertainment are available to everyone, and these things are so abundant that there's no point in charging people for them.

If you want earl grey tea, you just ask for it, and it's made for you. If you want a starship, you might be able to make it "one piece at a time", like the Johnny Cash song. Or maybe not. But it seems pretty clear that the average person on Earth doesn't really contribute much of anything, and is not expected to.

Sure, people get involved in giant projects like exploring the galaxy, but they certainly don't explore the galaxy because that's the way to make more money. They do it for fun and status. And the vast majority of people back on Earth think roaming around the Galaxy getting shot at by aliens is a pretty silly way to spend your time, equivalent to guys who spend years training to climb Mount Everest. You don't climb Mount Everest because you get paid to climb it.

[Balance]

But why couldn't he just use his replicator to create something that would be valuable to the outsider?
He might, if he has a pattern for something like that, and the outsider doesn't (or doesn't have a replicator of his own). Or he might use his rep to obtain a pattern for something valuable to the outsider. Or he could run errands/serve as a local guide to the outsider in exchange for goods. The assumption in the bit you quoted was that the outsider was from some place with a traditional economy, and wanted money in exchange for his stuff. Trading between people from separate "new" economies would likely be in some form of barter most of the time, unless they agreed upon some particular medium of exchange.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I think it's important to note that the Star Trek universe lacks a fundamental reason for the existence of capitalism, namely scarcity. Capitalism, communism, and other "isms" are about how to distribute scarce resources (and I think history has shown that capitalism does so in the most efficient manner).

In Star Trek, there is no scarcity, at least for the fundamental things like food, housing, clothing, etc.: it can all made via replicator, and it can all be distributed via teleporter. Power to run the replicators and transporters is apparently inextinguishable, at least for all practical purposes, thanks to matter/antimatter systems. And Star Trek assumes that all the physical and human capital needed to put these systems into place have already been expended (e.g., replicators, etc., are already essentially everywhere). In a world where both production and distribution costs are essentially zero -- where you can feed, clothe, and dress your family for basically nothing -- the rules of the economic game have been fundamentally altered.

Given all that, I think it's unsurprising that Star Trek economics would differ from Real-World economics. It's not about humans "growing up" or "maturing enough to stop fighting," it's about a fundamental alteration in how goods can be produced and distributed.

The geek part of me, which is not small, thinks you have to specify "Picard-era Earth, Vulcan, Betazed, and other central Federation worlds." It's clear that there is scarcity in Kirk's time and, in the TNG era, in the parts of space outside the center of the Federation.

[OttoDaFe]

IIRC, what you saw in TNG was not a replicator; rather it was the end of a delivery system that delivered the item ordered from Central Stores.

I recall David Gerrold (the author of The Trouble with Tribbles) complaining that the damned devices were everywhere. Given their ubiquity, a good part of the Enterprise's cubic must have been taken up by pneumatic tubes.

[Der Trihs]

Jones traded in exotic items. He sold living creatures, which presumably could not be replicated (though I see no technical bar to it--this is more likely a legal restriction), Federation replicator technology isn't quite good enough yet; if you replicate a living thing the result is a corpse due to "single bit errors". Some other cultures aren't limited that way though.

IIRC, what you saw in TNG was not a replicator; rather it was the end of a delivery system that delivered the item ordered from Central Stores.We've seen things materialize in the replicators.

[Balance]

IIRC, what you saw in TNG was not a replicator; rather it was the end of a delivery system that delivered the item ordered from Central Stores.We've seen things materialize in the replicators.From the context, I think Otto mean to say TOS, not TNG.

[Kamino Neko]

Also, there may be a demand for "the real thing", instead of replicated copies. Think wine snobs, for example.

Those snobs, though, are served by hobbyists who either give their product out, first come, first served, or trade them for favours or the production of said snobs' hobbies, rather than a money economy (if trading within the Federation).

I want to eat at Joseph Sisko's restaurant, I bring him a bottle of wine from the Picard vinyards, which I got by giving Rene a signed, mechanically produced book of poetry that the poet gave me because I actually ran the printing press it was produced on.

Or, conversely, I make a reservation, beam down to New Orleans, and settle in. (I can't remember which model Sisko worked on, if it was ever made clear in the episode.)

[alphaboi867]

...And we know wine snobs still exist because of the Picard winery/vineyard.

And Picard and his brother had a very French conversation how there father (mother?) wouldn't allow a replicator in the house and Rene claimed synthehol* had ruined people's taste for real wine while Jean-Luc countered that synthehol had made him appreciate real even more.



*Remember Starfleet replicators won't produce actual alcohol without an overide command. You just get something that looks & tastes like booze, but won't get you drunk or cause a hangover. Guinan kept a few bottles of the real stuff in Ten-Forward and the replicators on DS9 didn't have this restriction at all.

[BrainGlutton]

Most of the action in every ST series takes place within Starfleet -- a military organization; and every military organization practices a form of internal communism, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, which in no way reflects on the political or economic system of the society it serves.

[Superhal]

I agree that the Star Trek universe had strong socialistic and communist themes, and they spent a lil' too much time on Nazi planet.

However, I doubt that reflects on Roddenbery. And even if he was, that's allowed in the US.

[Tom Tildrum]

The geek part of me, which is not small, thinks you have to specify "Picard-era Earth, Vulcan, Betazed, and other central Federation worlds." It's clear that there is scarcity in Kirk's time and, in the TNG era, in the parts of space outside the center of the Federation.

Agreed. Remember that Kirk's Enterprise was once called upon to guard a grain shipment (and screwed it up).

IIRC, what you saw in TNG was not a replicator; rather it was the end of a delivery system that delivered the item ordered from Central Stores.

"The replicators on decks 7 through 9 are producing nothing but cat food."

[Captain Midnight]

Let's look at it from a Star Trek perspective.....

Much of humanity has left Earth and live on countless number of Planets inside the Galaxy. Less than one billion people live on Earth.

Humanity has united and racism against humans has more or less disappeared, because of the fact that humans had to be a united front against other aliens and have to make alliances with friendly species to survive in the larger realm.

Technology like the replicator has taken care of the needs of the people. Personally, I think the replicator device was badly written in Star Trek. In my mind, the replicator can make a lot of common, small things, but what the replicator makes is not as good as the real thing.

Another problem with this cashless have no needs society, is that there are needs. There is always scarcity. In Star Trek and especially DS9 (which I love and have the DVD's) there was a lot of bartering going about. I'll trade you this for that. Then there is gold pressed latinum which is only in small quantities and valued. Rank and position are also important in getting goods and services.

[PrettyVacant]

Most of the action in every ST series takes place within Starfleet -- a military organization; and every military organization practices a form of internal communism, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, which in no way reflects on the political or economic system of the society it serves.

Except it's the tool of what is portrayed as a benevolent, reluctant empire, forged with 'alliances', etc. We are the Good Empire. The Universal Policeman. A Shining Beacon.

[BrainGlutton]

Most of the action in every ST series takes place within Starfleet -- a military organization; and every military organization practices a form of internal communism, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, which in no way reflects on the political or economic system of the society it serves.

Except it's the tool of what is portrayed as a benevolent, reluctant empire, forged with 'alliances', etc. We are the Good Empire. The Universal Policeman. A Shining Beacon.

The Federation. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFederation)

But, as already pointed out in this thread, the Federation is not so much Communist as post-scarcity, for reasons not political but technological. And there is not even a hint that its sociopolitical order resulted from any kind of Marxist revolution or class struggle.

[athelas]

A blog post (http://volokh.com/posts/1190182117.shtml) by a law professor about collectivism and "federalism" in the Federation:The evidence in the TV series themselves is contradictory. On the one hand, the Federation seems to have a socialistic economy with a massive welfare state and no currency, which would require a high degree of centralization and planning incompatible with meaningful federalism. The Federation is not just “socialist” in the sense that some conservatives denounce any big-government policy as “socialistic.” It’s socialist in the classic sense of the word: government control of all or most major economic activity...

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the Federation is communist; we don’t see much evidence of class struggle (though maybe that’s because all of the bourgeoisie have already been safely packed off to Gulag planets) or of a monolithic one-party state. But it at least has some form of kinder, gentler non-Marxian socialism.

On the other hand, member planets apparently have considerable autonomy. For example, Vulcan seems to have very different laws from Earth. And Vulcan’s economy seems to have a large private sector. In Deep Space Nine, the planet of Bajor applies for Federation membership. Although Bajor is at least a partial theocracy with a government heavily influenced by religious leaders, anti-Federation Bajorans never argue that Federation membership would lead to the end of Bajor’s quasi-theocratic political system (as it surely would if the highly secular Federation denied political autonomy to member planets). In our world, it has generally proven impossible to combine socialism with decentralized federalism. Theoretically federal socialist states, such as the U.S.S.R. and Czechoslovakia, were in fact dominated by their central governments, with regional authorities holding little real power.

How do we reconcile the contradiction? Maybe it is only Earth that is socialistic, while the other member worlds have free market systems or mixed economies. The human-dominated Star Fleet military is the only visible Federation military force, and is perhaps tasked with collecting tribute from the nonhuman planets for redistribution to Earth. But as long as they pay their taxes, which subsidize Earth’s welfare state and Star Fleet itself, they are largely left alone to govern their domestic affairs as they see fit. The Federation is essentially a big protection racket. Like the Mafia, it provides “protection” in both senses of the word: external security, and also “protection” against its own depredations.

[Balance]

A blog post (http://volokh.com/posts/1190182117.shtml) by a law professor about collectivism and "federalism" in the Federation: <snip>
...and this is why we generally shouldn't listen to law professors.

[Lemur866]

It is utterly clear that the Federation is NOT socialistic, in the sense that government controls all or most economic activity.

It is also true that most economic activity isn't capitalist either.

And this is because there is no need for the government to control or coordinate economic activity, because everything comes out of replicators. People just get what they want, there doesn't need to be a government agency in charge of deciding how many size 13 running shoes to produce in August, because if someone wants a size 13 running shoe a replicator (or some other automated manufacturing system that might as well be a replicator) makes one for him.

And most economic activity isn't capitalist, because private ownership of the means of production is unneccesary. That's because "the means of production" is a replicator, and replicators are everywhere. If you set up a factory to produce widgets you're going to go broke, because anyone who wants a widget can get one from a replicator.

Of course, there is still scarcity in the sense that some things can't be produced by a replicator. There's only so much land on Earth, so if you want a vinyard in northern France you can't just make one. But the economic activity that most people in 2010 engage in is to accumulate enough money to pay for food, shelter, clothing, housing, and entertainment. In Star Trek no one has to work for this stuff, it's so cheap to produce that there's no point in making people do even a token amount of work in exchange for it.

And of course, if everything comes out of a replicator, typical people can't produce anything that anyone wants anyway. Not much call for factory workers and streetsweepers when it's all automated. Sure, there still jobs. But no one does those jobs because they get paid more, they do those jobs because they want to. And if 97% of the population sits on their ass all day and does nothing productive, well, what's wrong with that? Either they get bored sitting on their ass and decide to do something for the fun of it, or they keep sitting on their ass. Either way, it's up to them.

It's not a welfare state, because people sitting on their asses aren't getting handouts from the people who do the work. They get handouts from replicators. There's no taxation, because what are you going to tax? There's no government "spending"--if people don't volunteer to do work for the "government", then that government work just doesn't get done. There's no need to turn productive people into Hayekian serfs, because the productive people are volunteers, and if they don't feel like producing anymore they're free to sit on their asses like everyone else. They won't starve or be uncomfortable.

Lots of people won't work without some economic incentive. But lots of people do "work" even in 2010 without any economic incentive, or even with the opposite. We have dozens of community groups that put on plays, or concerts, and the people who perform don't get paid and often have to spend their own money to participate. People don't join the Boy Scouts because they get paid to be Boy Scouts. They don't post on the Straight Dope because they get paid to post on the Straight Dope. They don't climb Mount Everest because they get paid to climb Mount Everest.

But if I don't post on the Dope, the only thing that happens is that people don't get my latest musings. They still have a roof over their heads and food on the table. And in 2310 it's pretty much the same thing, except almost every job is this way. I'm sure that there are critical jobs that would cause the breakdown of society if no one did them, but since only a few people are needed for these jobs we can motivate people in other ways. If we don't have Starfleet Earth gets invaded by Romulans, but no one joins Starfleet because otherwise they'd starve. And if we need more people in Starfleet we motivate them by trying to make Starfleet cooler and more fun, rather than promising them material goods.

[Tom Tildrum]

Somebody has to build the replicators.

[Lemur866]

Why? Because if I had a replicator, you know what I'd make with it? Another replicator.

So yeah, like I said it seems certain that there would have to be jobs that have to be done by someone, otherwise the whole system goes tits up. But it does not follow that therefore we have to pay those neccesary people money.

For instance, the Straight Dope could not function without moderators. But the moderators are volunteers. If all the moderators quit, the Straight Dope would be in a pickle. Except that probably won't happen, and even if you paid the moderators that wouldn't prevent them all from quitting. If all the mods quit, Ed would just ask for more volunteers, and you'd get some sub-par moderation for a while.

I mean, suppose we need replicator maintainence techs. Without the labor of the replicator techs, the replicators stop working. Except, how do you motivate someone to be a replicator tech? With more crap out of the replicators? Except they get everything out of the replicators just like people who sit on their ass. So what's their motivation to be a replicator tech?

[BrainGlutton]

A blog post (http://volokh.com/posts/1190182117.shtml) by a law professor about collectivism and "federalism" in the Federation:

There has never been any hint in the series that any of the non-human planets are races are in a tributary/protection-racket relationship with Earth/humans. That would be the Terran Empire of the Mirror Universe.

[Voyager]

How do we reconcile the contradiction? Maybe it is only Earth that is socialistic, while the other member worlds have free market systems or mixed economies. The human-dominated Star Fleet military is the only visible Federation military force, and is perhaps tasked with collecting tribute from the nonhuman planets for redistribution to Earth. But as long as they pay their taxes, which subsidize Earth’s welfare state and Star Fleet itself, they are largely left alone to govern their domestic affairs as they see fit. The Federation is essentially a big protection racket. Like the Mafia, it provides “protection” in both senses of the word: external security, and also “protection” against its own depredations.

One minor problem with this is that in the one case where the Federation is going to collect tribute (A Piece of the Action) Spock notes that this is going to be hard to explain to the Federation, and Kirk says that the money will be fed back into the planetary economy.

And another vote for the post-scarcity answer. The market and a central planner both allocate scarce resources. Where there is a case of scarce resources - the mineral being mined in "A Devil in the Dark" there appears to be free market forces at play, since the miners are there to get rich. I'm not sure of examples in the TNG time frame.

[BrainGlutton]

You know, it's entirely possible that the Federation's economic system is something which has never yet existed and for which we do not have any words or concepts. It would have been impossible to adequately explain industrial capitalism, or Stalinism, to any European of the 17th Century.

[jackdavinci]

I see the ST future as being similar to virtual online spaces - things like land are still the subject of commerce because they are somewhat limited, and perhaps one of a kind items or those things which people who feel there is some value in 'real origin', but generally physical objects are subject only to the laws of creativity - you can easily have whatever you can build on your own or draw from a database, but anything more interesting than that you have to barter for the intellectual labor involved.