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View Full Version : Bob Brenly is the stupidest person on the face of the earth


minty green
11-01-2001, 11:01 PM
What kind of moron pitches his closer for three innings, during the second inning of which he gives up a two-run homer to tie the game and a couple more baserunners even after that, and during the third inning of which the closer gives up a game-ending homer? And what kind of moron then turns around the next night and, with a two run lead, puts that same closer in the game despite the fact that he threw sixty-two pitches the night before, and despite the obvious conclusion that the opposing team was teeing off on him like it was a Saturday morning at St. Andrews?

A fucking moron?

A perfectly moronic moron?

A goddamned useless waste of space on the dugout bench moron?

Perhaps, after this dreadful display of inexcusably stupid idiocy, the answer will be an unemployed moron.

Snooooopy
11-01-2001, 11:11 PM
He's still a moron managing a team in the World Series.

Opus1
11-02-2001, 12:42 AM
Oooh! Can I play too? What kind of moron:

A) Has Tony Womack lead off instead of Mark Grace, whose OBP this season was almost 100 points higher?
B) When, by some miracle, Womack reaches base to lead off the inning three times, uses a left handed hitter to bunt him over when:
i) The only reason you have Womack leading off in the first place is because he's the highest percentage base stealer in THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL!!!!!
ii) El Duque is easy to steal on
iii) El Duque has been getting hit up by lefties all night
iv) The next guy up, Gonzo, had one of the top 15 homerun seasons ever, and walked 100 times to boot, both of which accomplish the exact same result whether the runner is on first or second
C) Yanks Schilling after 88 pitches, despite the fact that the Arizona bullpen is held together with gum and scotch tape, and when a win could give you a commanding 3-1 lead with Randy Johnson still to come?

It is rather ironic that the giant debate about pitching Schilling on three days rest, which everyone thought would be the issue that Brenly was judged on, has now been completely overshadowed by numerous other, far more important, extremely stupid decisions on Brenly's part.

IzzyR
11-02-2001, 07:43 AM
The one decision that I don't disagree with Brenly about is taking Schilling out of the game. Fact is that the Yankees have not hit anyone in this series, and there was no way to know that the sole exception to this would be Kim. Schilling did not seem as dominant in the sixth and seventh (IIRC) as he had been, and it might have been the beginning of his losing it. Meanwhile, the issue of having Schilling available for the seventh game is a big one.

Had Schilling pitched on, and blown the game, people would have been all over Brenly. After all, he had never pitched on three days rest, and if your closer can't hold a two run lead, what's he there for?

I agree about Game 5 solely because Kim had thrown so many pitches in Game 4. Otherwise, it makes no sense to say that if your closer blows one game in a series he should never pitch again. This is not common practice, and makes no sense.

Opus1, no one uses slow players to lead off - even ones with high OBP. So I disagree with your first point.

IzzyR
11-02-2001, 07:56 AM
To clarify: I am not saying that Brenly should definitely have taken Schilling out - only that it is an eminently defendable decision. I don't know what I would have done had I been managing the DBs.

With regards to the second point of Opus, I agree. But I would point out that this is commonly done, for some reason. As an example, when Knoblouch led off the twelfth with a hit, Torre had him bunted over instead of having him steal. Knoblouch was one of the AL leaders in SBs, and the catcher behind the plate was worst in the NL at throwing out base-stealers (though he had been successful earlier in the game). Had Knoblouch stolen second, the Yankees could have plated him without a hit, of which they had been getting very few of late. So I would have had him run.

But of course, he didn't run, and the Yankees won anyway, and Torre is still a great manager. Which goes to the heart of the issue with regards to managing. All you can do is change your percentages - you can't guarentee a victory. No matter what you do the outcome may work out differently, and the wisdom of your decision will be judged by this random chance.

RickJay
11-02-2001, 08:15 AM
I have been watching, playing, and studying baseball for more than two decades. Long ago I came to the conclusion that people's views of managers are generally flawed. It is a much-loved myth that a manager's key skill is in-game decisions; I don't believe that's true. Generally speaking, 99% of in-game decision (who to pinch ht for, when to bring the reliever in, etc.) are the same ones anyone will make. For the most part stuff like bunts and hitting and running has very little impact on a team's success. The REALLY important decisions a manager makes are long-term decisions - how to put the oster together, wther to cut the veteran or keep the kid in the minors, who the fifth starter will be, stuff like that.

But last night was different. In the thousands and thousands and thousands of baseball games I've watched, Bob Brenley's decision to bring in Byung-Hung Kim last night was the stupidest decision I have ever seen a manager make, of any sort, in any SPORT. I was absolutely flabbergasted, and I told Mrs. RickJay and my best friend "They're gonna kill this guy. Why is Brenly doing this? They're toast." It was, to my eye, a much worse decision that, say, pinch hitting for Babe Ruth with Mario Mendoza. It was so stupid that I still cannot understand why he did it. I can understand why he bunts too much or leads off Tony Womack. Those are stupid decisions too, but I understand his thinking. But brining in Kim after he had practically pitched a short start tbhe night before makes you question his sanity or whether he's been bribed. It was very likely the stupidest in-game managerial decision in 125 years of major league history.

Poor Kim had nothing. He has obviously been exhausted for a month or more thanks to overwork, and last night he was clearly tiring six pitches in. The pitch Brosius hit out was a pumpkin right down the middle most SDMB posters would have hit.

Personally, I think it's a testament to Kim's courage and determination that he managed to get two outs, because his arm was obviously toast. I'm surprised it took that long for the Yankees to pop one into the seats. There was, in my honest opinion, no other pitcher in the bullpen who would not have been a BETTER choice to pitch. As proven by Mike Morgan, BTW; put him in in the ninth and it's 3-2 Arizona.

I appreciate that Kim is the relief ace and you use relief aces two night in a row, but you use them two night in a row when they HAVEN'T THROWN SIXTY-ONE GODDAMN PITCHES! ANY time another closer is used two night in a row, you will find that the night before was a quick appearance. Byt he time Brosius hit his homer Kim was approaching eighty pitches in 24 hours - that's a START, for God's sake.

Bringing in Kim in Game 4 was the right move, IMO, and it just didn't work out. Life's like that. LEAVING him in Game 4 after he'd been hit hard and was clearly tired was stupid. Bringing him in in Game 5 was just flat-out idiocy. Bob Brenly blew Game 4 with the absurd bunting and overusing poor Kim, and now he's blown Game 5 by abusing Kim's arm. If Arizona loses the series now, Brenly will be, in my memory, the only manager who has ever clearly caused his team to lose a World Series through sheer incompetence.

PatrickM
11-02-2001, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by RickJay

If Arizona loses the series now, Brenly will be, in my memory, the only manager who has ever clearly caused his team to lose a World Series through sheer incompetence.

No, that is incorrect. Exhibit A is of course, John McNamara in 1986 and his failure to use his usual defensive replacement for Buckner.

RickJay
11-02-2001, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by PatrickM
Originally posted by RickJay

If Arizona loses the series now, Brenly will be, in my memory, the only manager who has ever clearly caused his team to lose a World Series through sheer incompetence.

No, that is incorrect. Exhibit A is of course, John McNamara in 1986 and his failure to use his usual defensive replacement for Buckner.

I see your point. However, I must respectfully submit that Brenly is still the only one who has clearly lost the World Series himself, whereas McNamara just lost one chance to win it. First of all, McNamara was managing the Red Sox, and it is not possible for the Red Sox to win a World Series; nothing he did would have worked. Secondly, while he doubtlessly blew it big time by not sending in Stapleton to replace Buckner, the game WAS tied when The Error took place. And you have to admit that the Sox could have won the Series the next day.

Brenly, however, has now blown TWO games, both of which were completely winnable, and has done so with a number of hideously dumb moves. With a conservative, logical series of moves, Arizona wins the World Series 4-1. Today we'd be talking about Curt Schilling being series MVP. With Bob Brenly, they're losing 2-3. That tops McNamara.

PatrickM
11-02-2001, 02:02 PM
I dunno Rick. Disregarding your remarks about the Red Sox's being inherently incapable of ever winning the Series, then if Boston could have won game 7 in 1986, and they could have, then you must admit that at this point - being Friday afternoon Nov. 2, 2001 - that Arizona can still potentially win games 6 and 7. If that's McNamara's out as goat then in fairness it has to be given to Brenly too.

Brenly *did* the conservative and logical thing by taking out Schilling in game 4 and going to his supposed ace reliever. I can imagine the screaming if Brenly had left Schilling in and still he lost the game; people'd be saying Brenly blew it by wearing him out so he couldn't come back in game 7. At least now Arizona's still got their two aces in good shape and ready to go.

Gadarene
11-02-2001, 04:04 PM
Brenly *did* the conservative and logical thing by taking out Schilling in game 4 and going to his supposed ace reliever.

Yes, and then did the radical and completely irrational thing by leaving that "ace reliever" in for three innings and allowing him to throw more pitches in one appearance than he had all season long.

I concur unreservedly with RickJay and Opus1, especially with regard to the unfathomable decision to bunt Womack over with Counsell three times in Game Four. If the Yankees win the Series (and they will), I've got ten words for you:

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2001 World Series MVP...Bob Brenly.

g8rguy
11-02-2001, 05:18 PM
Am I the only person who thinks he should have had Randy Johnson warming up in the pen to save either game 4 or game 5? I mean, if you've got that 3-1 lead and a chance to go up 3 games to 1 in the series, take it! Let him pitch an inning or two just to close the game out, he'd have a couple of off days after only a minor amount of work, and would be basically ready for either game 6 or game 7. *shrugs* I guess that's why I'm not a manager, eh?

treis
11-02-2001, 06:19 PM
Am I the only person who thinks he should have had Randy Johnson warming up in the pen to save either game 4 or game 5? I mean, if you've got that 3-1 lead and a chance to go up 3 games to 1 in the series, take it! Let him pitch an inning or two just to close the game out, he'd have a couple of off days after only a minor amount of work, and would be basically ready for either game 6 or game 7. *shrugs* I guess that's why I'm not a manager, eh?

No, I completely agree he was the man to close out game 5.

RickJay
11-03-2001, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by g8rguy
Am I the only person who thinks he should have had Randy Johnson warming up in the pen to save either game 4 or game 5? I mean, if you've got that 3-1 lead and a chance to go up 3 games to 1 in the series, take it! Let him pitch an inning or two just to close the game out, he'd have a couple of off days after only a minor amount of work, and would be basically ready for either game 6 or game 7. *shrugs* I guess that's why I'm not a manager, eh?

I would have used Johnson to close Game 5, but I won't blame Brenly for not using him. It's reasonable to stick with Kim for Game 4 because Kim IS a good pitcher, and not using Johnson in Game 5 isn't entirely stupid if you're planning to use him to start Game 6.

But using Kim over ANY other pitcher in Game 5 is indefensible; having had to day to cool off, I still maintain that it is the most appalling tactical blunder a manager has ever made in major league history. Why did he not use Mike Morgan, or even Bobby Witt or Albie Lopez or SOMEONE? Why the guy with a noodled arm?

The "Let's waste an out bunting the greatest percentage basestealer in major league history.. THREE TIMES!" idiocy of Game 4 ranks right up there, too. Christ, if you're not going to have Tony Womack steal, just who WOULD you have steal?

Oblong
11-03-2001, 12:20 AM
I have been watching, playing, and studying baseball for more than two decades. Long ago I came to the conclusion that people's views of managers are generally flawed. It is a much-loved myth that a manager's key skill is in-game decisions; I don't believe that's true. Generally speaking, 99% of in-game decision (who to pinch ht for, when to bring the reliever in, etc.) are the same ones anyone will make. For the most part stuff like bunts and hitting and running has very little impact on a team's success. The REALLY important decisions a manager makes are long-term decisions - how to put the oster together, wther to cut the veteran or keep the kid in the minors, who the fifth starter will be, stuff like that.


I could not agree with this more. They make the decisioin. If the player succeeds, the manager is a genius. If the player fails, the manager is an idiot.

I question bringing in your closer into a tie game, especially when you are on the road. Best case scenario on a win is 2 innings.

I won't question the removal of Schilling because he said he had little left, and is now there is some doubt on game 7.

IzzyR
11-03-2001, 09:33 PM
At this point, I will pre-second guess Brenly, and suggest that he should have removed Johnson after the fifth inning tonight, and possibly use him tommorow, should it be necessary.

Gadarene
11-03-2001, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by IzzyR
At this point, I will pre-second guess Brenly, and suggest that he should have removed Johnson after the fifth inning tonight, and possibly use him tommorow, should it be necessary.

Abso-fucking-lutely. Your team is up 15-0. Nuke LaLouche couldn't lose this game for you now. Get Johnson the fuck out of there, so he could pitch an inning tomorrow if he really, really had to. Fucktard.

Typo Negative
11-04-2001, 06:19 PM
Johnson will not pitch tonight. Even if he only pitched 5 innings instead of seven, he would not be able to pitch tonight. He might be able to have his velocity. But not his control. They were afraid to use him on 3 days rest. He'll be useless on no rest.

Not that it matters. The D-Backs are in good shape. Shilling will be able to deliver a good 6-7 innings, then they'll go to Anderson and Swindell.

What they should do is replace Gonzales in LF. He can't hit for shit in this series and his poor defense has cost the D-Backs 2 games. He chose to play conservatively and short up rather than dive as nearly every other outfielder would do.
They should start Delucci in LF, Durazo at 1st and Bautista in RF.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

DynoSaur
11-04-2001, 06:29 PM
Well, to add to this...I was wondering about maybe pulling Randy out after the DBacks went up 12-0 in the third inning and having him start tonight.

This, would, of course, be REALLY unusual, but...thoughts?

Gadarene
11-04-2001, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by DynoSaur
Well, to add to this...I was wondering about maybe pulling Randy out after the DBacks went up 12-0 in the third inning and having him start tonight.

This, would, of course, be REALLY unusual, but...thoughts?

That's what I would have done. Of course, I probably wouldn't have been able to skipper a team to the World Series in the first place. :) But yeah, Randy out of there after three. (And spooje, Johnson pitched in relief on two days' rest in the 1995 ALDS against the Yankees, and did just fine.)

Gadarene
11-04-2001, 09:22 PM
Game Seven. Bottom of the seventh inning. Game's tied, 1-1. Curt Schilling, pitching on three days' rest for the second straight outing, has thrown ninety pitches. After being brilliant for most of the game, Schilling looked like he had started to flag--he gave up three hits and a run, and the last out was made on a screaming fly to right center. Schilling is due to bat first in the bottom of the inning.

Given that, is there any reason in the ever-loving world that you don't hit for Schilling, sending up Durazo or Dellucci to take their whacks and get on base?? Especially when you've got Miguel Batista warming up in the pen?

Gadarene
11-04-2001, 09:34 PM
First batter of the eighth inning. Home run off Schilling. Yup.

IzzyR
11-04-2001, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Gadarene
Given that, is there any reason in the ever-loving world that you don't hit for Schilling, sending up Durazo or Dellucci to take their whacks and get on base?? Especially when you've got Miguel Batista warming up in the pen?Especially when Schilling is about to give up a home run in the eigth?

Great game and series, BTW.

DynoSaur
11-04-2001, 10:40 PM
Well, DESPITE the fact that Bob Brenly shouldn't be managing a McDonald's, they won. Mariano Rivera is human, go figure.


DIE, YANKEES, DIE!

Typo Negative
11-04-2001, 10:49 PM
Maybe, just maybe, God doesn't hate me after all.


[b]Go D-Backs!!!!!

RickJay
11-04-2001, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by DynoSaur
Well, DESPITE the fact that Bob Brenly shouldn't be managing a McDonald's, they won. Mariano Rivera is human, go figure.

Mariano's still got my Hall of Fame vote if he can play three more years (ya need 10 years of service to qualify.)

Best World Series since 1991. Great fun. And that's the way the Yankee dynasty should be beaten - not eliminated in the regular season in 2002 or losing the ALDS, but beaten in the World Series.

mouthbreather
11-04-2001, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by spooje
Maybe, just maybe, God doesn't hate me after all.

Eh, I wouldn't bet on it. :)