Heaven or Hell for non-believers?

[gitfiddle]

Last night, I was having a very theological conversation with someone. They asked me what I believed about people that were not
Christians and what there fate was. I told him that if a person had completely devoted themselves to another religion, been completely
faithful, and that was all they knew to be that religion, then they could be recieved into the kingdom of heaven. I alluded to C. S. Lewis'
CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: THE LAST BATTLE when Aslan makes the two doors, one into Aslan's Country and the other to some
where dark and barron. Aslan let's a Calormene into Aslan's Country saying something along the lines of "By being completely faithful to
Tash you have been faithful to me because that was all you knew "(I apologize if that is way off, but I do not have my books up here at
school so I couldn't look right away). The person I was talking to said, "Well, what about 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one
gets to Heaven but through me.' Should everyone just not worry because they are going to be saved anyway, because they didn't know
better?" So, my question, is there any validity to my argument? I believe that C. S. Lewis was not the type to flippantly speculate. Is
there any scriptural basis for the parralell in the book? I really would appreciate some help.

[tomndebb]

A majority of Christians follow your interpretation. (A loud minority of Christians follow that of your opponnent.) If one reads Paul's letter to the Romans, Chapter 2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=romans+2&version=RSV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english), one finds Paul discussing the fate of people who do not follow Christianity. It includes the passages 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 For he will render to every man according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.and 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Now Romans is the letter in which Paul most explicitly lays out the concept of being saved by faith, alone, and noting that no person can earn salvation.

However, in this preface, he makes clear that while one cannot earn salvation (the gift of God), one's actions display the way that one responds to God (even unconsciously). Note particularly verses 14 - 16, including, "They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts". Folks who embrace the notion that one must explicitly acknowledge Jesus as Savior generally read these verses to indicate that the the unbelievers will be judged less harshly, but they're still going to hell. (?!)

I know of no non-Fundamentalist Christian church that claims that all unbelievers are damned.

[Dave Stewart]

My understanding of Christian ethics is very limited, but at least by the time of Dante there was a circle in Hell reserved for the Virtuous Unbelievers. Into this circle went those people Dante admired, like Socrates, but unfortunately weren't Christian (being alive before Christ, I guess they didn't have much choice).

[Mighty Maximino]

There wasn't any torture per se going on in the circle of Virtuous Unbelievers; no demons stabbing you with pitchforks or anything like that. You were denied the presence of God, though, and Dante thought that was pretty rough.

From the book of James, 2:24 - 26, we have Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So perhaps you can take the Rahab route even if you're not a Christian. Unfortunately, there is a pretty fair contingent of people that seem to desire hell for as many people as possible.

[Izzardesque]

What about atheists? Those who know all about the different religions and have chosen to reject that, as I have. If I am wrong, and there is a hell, would I go there for choosing not to believe, even if I led a good life anyway?

[Eternal]

Originally posted by Izzardesque
What about atheists? Those who know all about the different religions and have chosen to reject that, as I have. If I am wrong, and there is a hell, would I go there for choosing not to believe, even if I led a good life anyway?

Not if you give all your money to the Church right away!

[Izzardesque]

{ot]I loved that song by Phil Collins "Jesus he knows me" taking the piss out of Evangelicists. As much as I am ashamed that I have ever listened to a Phil Collins record...... [ot]

[grimpixie]

Originally posted by Izzardesque
What about atheists? Those who know all about the different religions and have chosen to reject that, as I have. If I am wrong, and there is a hell, would I go there for choosing not to believe, even if I led a good life anyway?

In CS Lewis' story recounted above, there is a moment of choice for each of the Narnian creatures as they come before Aslan. Some look on him and love him, even some of those who have been fighting against the heroes through the rest of the book - these pass though the door to "heaven". Others look on him and hate and fear him - they pass into Aslan's shadow and vanish ("hell").

If this is an accurate description of what happens, then you could expect a chance to "recant", but why risk it?? ;)

Gp

[Izzardesque]

Originally posted by grimpixie
Some look on him and love him, even some of those who have been fighting against the heroes through the rest of the book - these pass though the door to "heaven". Others look on him and hate and fear him - they pass into Aslan's shadow and vanish ("hell").


What about those that look upon him, and say "I don't believ you exist. Thats just a costume. Come on, own up, how do you do it? Animitronics? Where's Jim Henson? I know he's around here somewhere!!"?

:D

[Mighty Maximino]

Originally posted by Izzardesque
What about atheists? Those who know all about the different religions and have chosen to reject that, as I have. If I am wrong, and there is a hell, would I go there for choosing not to believe, even if I led a good life anyway?

Well, I'd be right there with ya, Izzard. Even if I was presented with evidence, though, I would still refuse to worship a God that created a Hell.

[rjung]

If God demands your love and worship to avoid the pains of Hell, then he is not worthy of either.

[astorian]

Well, since the OP brought up C.S. Lewis, let's consider Mr. Lewis' interpreation of one of Jesus' parables.

Jesus prophesied that, on the last day, He will separate the sheep from the goats. To the sheep he will say, "I was hungry and you fed me. I was naked and you clothed me. I was in prison and you visited me. Now, enter into my kingdom. And some of the goats will ask, "Lord, WHEN did we do these things?" And Jesus' answer will be, "Whatsoever you did for the least of my brothers, that you did unto me."

C.S. Lewis pointed to this parable as proof that people CAN serve Jesus without knowing they are doing so, or intending to do so. ARE there atheists, Moslems, Jews, Hindus, wt al., who do good works, and who lead what we might be tempted to call exemplary "Christian" lives? Sure.
So, mightn't THEY be precisely the people who'll be pleasantly surprised to find themselves welcome in Jesus' kingdom?

[gitfiddle]

Originally posted by Mighty Maximino
Originally posted by Izzardesque
What about atheists? Those who know all about the different religions and have chosen to reject that, as I have. If I am wrong, and there is a hell, would I go there for choosing not to believe, even if I led a good life anyway?

Well, I'd be right there with ya, Izzard. Even if I was presented with evidence, though, I would still refuse to worship a God that created a Hell.

Atheism is a farce. It's just a cop-out. It would take more than just a great mind to convince anyone with any sense that atheism is a feesable. I'm not preaching Christianity, Buddism, or Islam, however there is too much order in nature and life to believe there was no First Cause. That's my view of atheism. It's laziness.

Furthermore, God had to create Hell in order to be just. It would violate everyone's free will to automatically enter heaven. They make the choice.

[Mighty Maximino]

Originally posted by gitfiddle
Atheism is a farce. It's just a cop-out. It would take more than just a great mind to convince anyone with any sense that atheism is a feesable. I'm not preaching Christianity, Buddism, or Islam, however there is too much order in nature and life to believe there was no First Cause. That's my view of atheism. It's laziness.

Believe what you want to. Personally, I'm amenable to the idea of a First Creator. As far as I can tell, though, he didn't leave a buisiness card, and until It actually comes down and talks to me one-on-one, I say the orderliness of the world doesn't prove anything. And even if It did, I wouldn't necessarily worship It. I figure we don't owe each other anything.

Furthermore, God had to create Hell in order to be just. It would violate everyone's free will to automatically enter heaven. They make the choice.

Didn't being born violate your free will? I don't recall choosing to play in this game, and therefore torturing me for all eternity is manifestly unfair. I think that both heaven and hell are farces, for what it's worth.

But back to your OP. There's some Scriptural basis for thinking that good people go to heaven regardless of what they believe in. So what do you mean by "choice"? Choose to be bad people? Choose the wrong religion? Perhaps we can debate what you brought up, instead of dragging out all these dead horses again.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Originally posted by gitfiddle
Atheism is a farce.

My new motto: Atheists have more fun!

Furthermore, God had to create Hell in order to be just.

Why wouldn't god skip hell to be compassionate?

[Freyr]

gitfiddle wrote:

Last night, I was having a very theological conversation with someone. They asked me what I believed about people that were not Christians and what there fate was. I told him that if a person had completely devoted themselves to another religion, been completely faithful, and that was all they knew to be that religion, then they could be recieved into the kingdom of heaven. I alluded to C. S. Lewis' CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: THE LAST BATTLE when Aslan makes the two doors, one into Aslan's Country and the other to some where dark and barron. Aslan let's a Calormene into Aslan's Country saying something along the lines of "By being completely faithful to Tash you have been faithful to me because that was all you knew "(I apologize if that is way off, but I do not have my books up here at school so I couldn't look right away).

I'm going to have to ask you to clarify your definition of what you consider a non-believer to be. By the way you've set up your argument, you're implying that any other religion is a false one, and over all, they're really serving the J/C/I god. I think that's a slap in the face to the people who sincerely practice any of the non-abrahamic religions.

Furthermore, God had to create Hell in order to be just. It would violate everyone's free will to automatically enter heaven. They make the choice.

Oh, yeah, that's a good example of Free Will! Essentially (the J/C/I) God is saying "either do it my way or you'll suffer eternal punishment." :rolleyes:

astorian wrote:

C.S. Lewis pointed to this parable as proof that people CAN serve Jesus without knowing they are doing so, or intending to do so. ARE there atheists, Moslems, Jews, Hindus, wt al., who do good works, and who lead what we might be tempted to call exemplary "Christian" lives? Sure. So, mightn't THEY be precisely the people who'll be pleasantly surprised to find themselves welcome in Jesus' kingdom?

Aren't you forgetting that since they're not Christians, they're outside the rules and regulations of Christianity therefore not subject to its idea of "Final Judgement"? More likely they're end up in the whatever version of the Afterlife is decribed by their respective faith rather than the Christian version of "paradise" or "heaven" ?

[Dave Stewart]

Originally posted by gitfiddle
Originally posted by Mighty Maximino
Originally posted by Izzardesque
What about atheists? Those who know all about the different religions and have chosen to reject that, as I have. If I am wrong, and there is a hell, would I go there for choosing not to believe, even if I led a good life anyway?

Well, I'd be right there with ya, Izzard. Even if I was presented with evidence, though, I would still refuse to worship a God that created a Hell.

Atheism is a farce. It's just a cop-out. It would take more than just a great mind to convince anyone with any sense that atheism is a feesable. I'm not preaching Christianity, Buddism, or Islam, however there is too much order in nature and life to believe there was no First Cause. That's my view of atheism. It's laziness.

Furthermore, God had to create Hell in order to be just. It would violate everyone's free will to automatically enter heaven. They make the choice.

Too much order??? Where do you see the order?

And God is just, but in being just cannot be all-benevolent, right? How could an omnibenevolent being create Hell?

[ElwoodCuse]

Regarding "order" in the universe--

One must consider what we know as the universe. Think of the infinite monkey at infinite typewriters. In a universe of this size, statistically wouldn't there *have* to be someplace where life can exist?

And gitfiddle, don't confuse athiesm and agnosticism. Atheists say there isn't a God. Agnostics aren't sure. From http://www.religioustolerance.org:

An agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence. Agnostics note that nobody in history has been able to prove that God exists or that God does not exist. Since Agnostics do not believe in God, they are not Theists; since they are not certain that God does not exist, they are not Atheists. An agnostic usually holds these questions open, pending the arrival of more evidence. They are willing to change their belief if some solid evidence or logical proof is found in the future.

[MEBuckner]

Originally posted by gitfiddle
Atheism is a farce. It's just a cop-out. It would take more than just a great mind to convince anyone with any sense that atheism is a feesable. I'm not preaching Christianity, Buddism, or Islam, however there is too much order in nature and life to believe there was no First Cause. That's my view of atheism. It's laziness.
Theism is a farce. It's just a cop-out. It would take more than just a great mind to convince anyone with any sense that theism is feasible. I'm not preaching Secular Humanism, or Dialectical Materialism, or Objectivism, however there is too much randomness in nature and life to believe there is a Supreme Governor of the world, and we have too good of a scientific understanding of the history and workings of the Universe to accept an anthropomorphized "Creator".

[Izzardesque]

Originally posted by gitfiddle

Atheism is a farce. It's just a cop-out. It would take more than just a great mind to convince anyone with any sense that atheism is a feesable. I'm not preaching Christianity, Buddism, or Islam, however there is too much order in nature and life to believe there was no First Cause. That's my view of atheism. It's laziness.



Get thee to the Pit, or at the very least IMHO for that one!!

[modro]

Being the Immoral Atheist Bastardtm that most religious types would like to make me out to be on account of my disbelief in an all powerful creator, I offer my views on the whole Heaven/Hell debate.

It has always been my personal view that an afterlife simply does not exist. My life, My existance, is tied up in the time that I am on this earth. This is my heaven, this is also my hell. By living a moral life as deemed by my own sense of what is right or wrong, I can live my life happily, seeking joy and meaning in helping others, or I can bring myself to be a miserable depressed heap, causing life to be my hell. My life may just be a flicker in the night, but so long as I live it happily, I am in my own heaven. Whenever I die, I assume nothing happens, just like before you were born, no pain, no joy, no self. Not knowing is part of the adventure though. While I may look towards death with apprehension, it is but another part of life, and I will accept it for whatever it may be, and not fear it.

I always frowned on the whole idea of organized religion, it organizes people in a fashion similar to a government, but places the stakes much higher, taking advantage of the faith of others. I will follow my own path, not allow a church to decide it for me, and I welcome whatever may come.

[Polycarp]

Okay, look.

Activist Christian here, but one who tries to think. The most logical conclusion, in the absence of adequate evidence of God to convince you of His existence, is the sort of "soft atheism" regularly discussed on these boards: in the absence of "proof" of God, the reasonable presumption is His non-existence. This is not agnosticism, which says that we do not know or cannot know (soft and hard varieties), but rather equates God to any other superstition as presumably non-existent in the absence of proof.

I have proof adequate for me, have discussed it in several threads, am perfectly well aware of its subjectivity and therefore inadequacy to prove Him to others. Besides, it's not my job, by His orders, to prove Him: I'm supposed to show Him and what He does in people by the life I live and the things I say and do. And that will constitute the proof you need.

For anyone to say "atheism is a farce" means that they have not thought through their own beliefs, either.

MEBuckner, theism is not a farce, either. Some of the exaggerated, blinders-equipped claims made by theologians may be farcical. But the idea of a God who works in and through a flawed universe, including with elements of apparent randomness, is not farcical, and there are numerous items of historical and evidentiary data to support it (as well as some that tend to refute it).

I always frowned on the whole idea of organized religion, it organizes people in a fashion similar to a government, but places the stakes much higher, taking advantage of the faith of others. I will follow my own path, not allow a church to decide it for me, and I welcome whatever may come.

Interesting point. At least one theist here, Libertarian, would agree. However, ignoring the human tendency to seek power for a moment and looking at inner motivations, many feel that identification with an organized body, by their own choice, is the proper mode of carrying out the instructions of an Incarnate God with Whom they feel they have a personal relationship. Including me.

The difference is as simple as that between blind adherence to "Amurrika: Love It or Leave It" and informed patriotic citizenship that attempts to guide one's legislators according to one's personal views of the proper course to follow, standing behind them once they decide.

[MEBuckner]

Originally posted by Polycarp
MEBuckner, theism is not a farce, either. Some of the exaggerated, blinders-equipped claims made by theologians may be farcical. But the idea of a God who works in and through a flawed universe, including with elements of apparent randomness, is not farcical, and there are numerous items of historical and evidentiary data to support it (as well as some that tend to refute it).
If you'll notice, Polycarp, I basically just took gitfiddle's words and said the exact opposite. When somebody says "You're a big fat duh-head" in Great Debates, with no evidence or argument to back it up, I tend to think that "I know you are, but what am I?" is a perfectly valid and appropriate response.

I kind of felt bad about hijacking the O.P.'s thread, which wasn't really supposed to be about atheism vs. theism, on any level of argumentation, until I realized that it was actually the O.P. who had started that particular hijack, so I let fly.

[Polycarp]

:o

Important message to would-be Great Debaters: Don't skim the thread! Sometimes irony and rhetorical devices sneak up on you and bite you when you aren't looking.

Sorry, M.E.

[jab1]

"Immoral Atheist Bastards" would be a good name for a rock band.

[MEBuckner]

Originally posted by Polycarp
:o

Important message to would-be Great Debaters: Don't skim the thread! Sometimes irony and rhetorical devices sneak up on you and bite you when you aren't looking.

Sorry, M.E.
Well, Polycarp, you're a big fat duh-head, but that's okay. :D